How I came to embrace Preterism.

[Manifestation1*AD70]

How I came to embrace Preterism.


I would like to share with you how I came to embrace Preterism. You know how we are always hearing about the rapture and the end of the world coming on the television and radio programs. Well I was a futurist also and spent my time at night, listening to them preach on this subject over the radio.

One night while I was listening to them on the radio I fell into a deep sleep. While I was sleeping I started to feel as though I was on fire, and running a very high temperature, but yet I was still asleep.

Then I heard a voice from what I assumed to be the radio saying, "we are not living in the last days, Jesus has come."

As I begin to awake, I suddenly realized that I had also been crying in my sleep and found myself chanting over and over again "I love you Jesus." My pillow was soaking wet as though someone had saturated it with a bucket of water. All this happened between 1 and 2 AM.

The next night, I listened to the very same radio station but never heard anything like that again. From that point on it seemed like God had burned something deep within my soul forever. I would come home from work, spending hours studying. I even stayed in the house all weekend, closely examining the Bible. Studying the Bible almost become a obsession to me. It was like taking a drink of the clear water of life that proceeds from the throne of God and I could not stop drinking it.

I must admit that at first I really struggled, questioning if what I now saw in the Bible was really true. But as God promised, the more I looked for Him the more truth I found.

Many things fell into place like never before, and the Bible seemed to come alive. God opened my eyes to see who the New Testament letters were written to and why. I began, to understand the key to any passage of Scripture is a careful study into the language, culture, politics, and the historical setting in which it was originally written.

Rich nuggets of truth came forth from my daily studies in the book of Hebrews. As I studied, I learned that it takes the "cross, resurrection, and return of Christ" to complete our salvation. I learned to see things from God's perspective and not mans, that Death, to God, means to be separated from Him.

Spiritual Death is an enemy because it keeps people from God. God loved man and desired to be with him and be his God. This was not possible until Jesus Christ returned and removed the Old Covenant. God’s light and truth lead me to His holy hill and to His dwelling.

I could see more clearly than ever the face of God. God dwells in me like the Old Testament promised and I dwell in His glory because of the completed work of Christ. It is like the writer of Hebrews says we can now enter the Holiest by the blood of Christ (Hebrews 10:19).

I never pray anymore "dear Lord in heaven," for God now dwells-tabernacles within me. I am glad to call myself a preterist because if it were not for God opening my eyes, I would not be one today. :clap:

[Ozarkpreterist]

Here is my story.

I used to be a futurist. In fact, I used to promote and teach futurist thought. However, failed prediction after failed prediction began to put doubts in my heart. For example, I heard that everyone from JFK to Bill Clinton was the Anti-Christ. Remember the book “Eighty Eight Reasons Why the Lord will Return in 1988?” The list goes on. All this blatant and many times wild speculation turned me into what you would call a pan-millennialist. You know the old joke. Why worry about the end times? It will all pan out in the end! That joke does not seem so funny any more. The end and when it occurred is vital.

I was sitting in my office one day thinking about the major views on the book of Revelation. A question came to mind. "Which view would you want to be right if you were the Devil?" I assume this question was from the Lord, because it lead to major changes for good in my life. Suddenly, I had to know who was right. It became almost an obsession. I spent hours studying the futurist, the historistic, and to a lesser degree the idealist view. For some reason I saved preterism for last. I was saving the best for last, but I did not know it at the time.

The view I found most appalling was the futurist view. Believe me the Devil is a futurist. From this perspective he came through Jesus' finished works relatively unscathed. In fact, his kingdom is destined to grow stronger and stronger. He even gets I suppose to become incarnate in some sort of Anti-Christ. Beloved, we must decide. Satan is either a defeated foe or not. There is no in-between. If he is defeated, then we must treat him as such. Futurism simply does not do this. In fact, in many respects, it actually glorifies Satan, boasting in how big the darkness is rather than how big God is.

I found the historistic and the idealist view to be compelling and a lot more intellectually stimulating that the futurist view. Yet, I concluded that is about all they had going for them. I must admit they both are much more positive about the future than the futurists. Yet, both views said in one way or another "not yet" concerning the kingdom of God.

Then I came to preterism. I was surprised at what I found. Not only did I find far superior scholarship and logic, but I found something even greater. I found truth. I love encountering truth, for ultimately when we meet the truth we are not just meeting an idea or theory. We meet a Person-- the Person of Jesus Christ. I saw Him in covenant eschatology.

And as Jesus said, the truth will set us free. If our theories don't set us free, then maybe they are just theories, and everyone has a theory. Before I studied the preterist view, I felt like I had been fighting the fight of faith with one hand tied behind my back. Preterism untied the other hand.

First I began to see Satan as he is. He has been a crushed, disarmed, and defeated foe since the Parousia. If the church would stand in this truth oh how she would be free.

Yet, that is only part of it. I began to see the present reality of God's Kingdom. I see more clearly than ever the glory of God. His glory dwells in me, for Christ dwells in me. I dwell in His glory for I dwell in Christ by God's own doing. Never again will I ask, "Where is God?"

Moreover, Paul said that the kingdom of God is righteousness, joy, and peace in the Holy Spirit. Now, these are not just things I touch every once and awhile. (Kind of like God coming and going or visiting every once in awhile when I did everything just right. This is indeed the view of many Christians. The kingdom of God is here but not yet.) These things are my experience every day, for God in Christ has given us His present and abiding glory. Just as His glory once dwelt in a building called the Tabernacle in the Old Testament, we are His dwelling place now.

There are so many believer's walking around with long faces knowing only a victory that is someday or maybe not even possible in this life at all. Someone needs to tell them that the kingdom of God is here now. That is what perterists are ultimately saying. That is why I am now glad to call myself one.

Preterism is a major shift in one's mindset. It moves us from us from always trying to obtain the kingdom of God to having it. It moves us from striving to rest and from the carnal to the spiritual. This change of mind is still occurring in me, and I am not going back.

Eschatology is not just the study of the return of Christ. It seeks to answer the question of how much of our salvation we can experience in this life. Futurism, if you really study it, says very little of it, because the kingdom of God is not yet here. Preterism says very well near all of it, because the kingdom of God is a very present reality. For this reason it is very much worth exploring with an open heart.

[parousia70]

It all started in Jr. High.

Upon invitation, I attended a wednesday night youth group at our local non denom church. Mostly to meet girls, but I was also curious about Christianity. I found myself growing more fond of the message than the girls, and became fervant for the gospel. Then in the High school youth group we watched a film called "caught up" or something like that, (circa 1982 "left behind" prototype, anybody out there know the movie I speak of?), anyway, after that movie, and follow-up stern warning from the group organizers that we'd better shape up because we didn't have even 10 years left by their estimate before the events in the movie became reality,I did an about face. I left the faith alltogether, went fom a B+ student to barely graduating, got into drugs and followed the Grateful Dead around the country for the next 10 years. I figured, whats the point? I was mad at God for denying me a future on planet earth, to Get married, have children, give the children away at their weddings, and grow old surrounded by grandchildren and great grandchildren. I felt robbed out of a Life so I was going to experience all that my few years left had to offer.

In 1995, after Jerry Garcia Died (and didn't rise again), I began to re-examine my faith. This co-insided with me meeting my then future wife, a Cradle Catholic. As we grew closer, and eventually became engaged, my love for her rekindled my love for Jesus. I attended mass regularly and the in 1998, a year after we were maried, I began the RCIA education classes to join the Church.

This is where I first heard of Preterism. There came an evening about midway through the 6 months of wednesday classes that was an "open forum" for any and all questions.

I asked If the Catholic Church was on the same page as the bulk of evangelical Christianity that claimed we were living in the "last days". That was still my major sticking point that was keeping me from embracing any of mainstream Christianity.

In answer, I was given an 11 tape audio lecture series by Dr. Scott Hahn, on the book of Revelation. I listened to it straigh through 5 times! I was astounded at what I had heard. Scott Hahn is a Catholic Layperson who is a very
strong "Partial Preterist" in fact, I'd say he is the only "consistant partial preterist" I know of.
While he still looks for a future to us coming of Jesus, he admits that he has no scripture back that up with, relying only on the creeds. He went through Revelation verse by verse showing how it was fulfilled to a T in the 1st century with the destruction of Jerusalem. In the tape he mentioned a few "full preterists" by name so I hit the comuter to search out this fascinating, new (to me) take on the Bible.

I began by doing everything I could to find every argument I could against preterism, then searching the scriptures to "see if it were so". The more I couldn't argue against it and still maintian scriptural integrity, the more I realized it was true, and the more my faith In Jesus grew.

Preterism brought me back to Jesus!!!

It's been almost 3 years since I came to accept the truth of past fulfillment and the blessings I have received have far outweighed the sacrifices (which have been great and many).

I continue today in the quest to have this belief I hold challenged and tested, for only as it continues to stand the scrutiny of scripture will I continue to accept it.

I don't have all the answers, and I am more than willing to be proven wrong, but over 3 years of prayer and study have led me to the place I am today, On fire for Jesus, in the Eternal Victory of His fulfilled Kingdom!

[armothe]

I'll try to keep this short.

I grew up in a Baptist environment. I was taught Futurism in Sunday School, along with all the other "isms" that follow along with it.

I was further entrenched into a futurist belief due to the Baptist College I attended for 4 years.

After graduation I was more focused on my career, single life, and entertainment; rather than focusing on God.

About a year later, attending a large church with my fiancee I started to question and investigate some of the sermons I heard on Sunday.

This started me down the path of studying the Word for myself, rather than accepting everything I was told. Eventually I studied "end times" prophecy. I bought many a book on "armageddon" "revelation unveiled", but I was still unable to make things fit.

Part of my studies brough me online where I ran into a Christian website which stated Christ came in 70AD. I had never heard this before. I followed the neat tutorial where it would ask you a series of questions and you would answer yes or no...etc. Sort of like a "choose your own adventure" book. I was at a loss to refute many of the questions and claims the website tutorial stated.
I gave this theory credit, and tucked it away; but remained unchanged.

Eventually, after a year or so, I gave up my studies on the end times because I just couldn't understand it. Nothing made sense to me. I started reading the "Left Behind" series to gain insight (hah) and at about the 5th book monsters started flying around and it just became utterly ridiculous.

A good friend then invited me to meet with his father-in-law who is a minister at a local church. We talked about eschatology and he was able to answer many of the questions I had. He held a preterist view and answered many of my questions suberbly.

He challenged me to read the Bible from a 1st century viewpoint. He also asked the question; "What's left for Christ to do when he returns?" because he already has given us the greatest gift we could possibly imagine.

Since then a world of growth has opened up for me. I read God's word daily and for once, things actually started to make sense concerning prophetical fulfillment.

-A

[jenlu]

These are fascinating stories and keep em comin'...

Parousia, I think I'm still at the stage of Scott Hahn(still thinking about full preterism, not sure of the concepts yet)...with the future return of Jesus Christ...Not to set up any kingdom, for that was done long ago :clap: ... I think our beliefs in how the past fulfillment effects one's life are very similar...

My story goes as follows...

I used to be a hardcore dispensationalist, but around 1996 I started having questions about things that just weren't fitting in scripture with the dispensationalist view...I couldn't quite figure out what it was but I knew it had to do with the time texts, but couldn't get myself to understand what all the writers meant with all those time texts...I was trying to put what I thought to be true in scripture instead of letting scripture be the base of my truths...finally one day after grueling over the situation for 2 years I was tuned(not really listening) to a Christian radio station and I heard "release you from the chains"...they were talking of how last days in the church have put a stranglehold on many believers...Well, that was me...so I listened intently and they gave snipits, but didn't really go into detail...then they offered a book called Last Days Madness:Obsession of the Modern Church by Gary Demar...That book (reading it along with the Bible)was the beginning of the most wonderful journey I have taken ...I do believe it will last until the day I die...

BTW...all these stories make me think of something...We are all in here trying to convince, persuade, and many other things to allow people to see what we see...But, in all these stories and I'm sure hundreds more it took something within yourself to allow the opening of the mind to other possible ideas...for some it is failed predictions, for others it was how things didn't just add up and I'm sure many other different things that contributed to the searching of these truth's...So trying to convince on a message board will probably be futile, so don't get to worried...The seeds have definitely been planted with many and I'm sure they will bear fruit...

[Acts6:5]

Actually, email and message board debates is what led me to believe in preterism.

About three years ago I was surfing the internet to find some good articles about the continuance of spiritual gifts, and I came across a Church site pastored by a man named Steven Curtis (most preterists on the web know who he is). The article must have been an old one because he was defending the gifts for today. As I searched the site I came across more recent articles, ones on spiritual gifts that seemed to contradict the older teachings. There were articles about the cessation of the gifts, and the Return of Christ in 70AD.

And my response was WHAT?!?!

I emailed him twice, explaining to him that he must not have ever seen the passages Thessalonians, or looked up at the sky and seen the sun, stars, and moon still in their places. Mr. Curtis' replies were very respectful and understanding, but the truth in his words dogged me afterwards. I then joined a Christian Discussion forum, and lo 'n behold, I became friends with a man named John McPherson, who I later found out was a preterist himself (some of you from PreteristPlanet may know of John too).

I vehemently debated John on preterism, although our debates were quite civil and friendly (that couldn't be said of some of the other posters there though), and after a time our debate ended, but John's scriptures still haunted me, just like Mr. Curtis'. I then went on an all out attack on preterism, asking a local TV preacher to refute preterists on his debate show, emailing Dr. D. James Kennedy, warning him that one of his speakers, Dr. R.C. Sproul, was a partial preterist, and so on. I studied the scriptures and searched the internet for the greatest Christian defense against preterism I could muster.

But for all of my zeal, time, and effort, I slowly began to realize (to my horror) that I might have been trying to box with God rather then fight a false doctrine. All of the simple scriptures that Curtis and McPherson challenged me with began to speak, the voices of God's Word getting louder and louder, while my futurist filter beame less and less effective.

One day in February of last year I realized that I could not pretend any longer. I emailed John McPherson and told him that my eschatology had changed. He was ecstatic, to say the least. :)

In Christ,

Acts6:5

[jenlu]

Acts6:5...I see what you're saying...BTW, I'm not saying we should discontinue the debate...in fact I think seeds planted here and everywhere will work wonders, but to see a change like today or tomorrow would be asking too much...These forums are great and help spread the message a lot faster...I love em...good story...I remember thinking when I first started "this can't be true", "prove it"...it was to my horror too...that is an unbelievable way to be converted...something you really don't want to be true, proven to be true right in front of you...

[Acts6:5]

Yep, it certainly does not happen overnight - and it shouldn't, either. Changing our beliefs on certain doctrines should only happen after a time of earnest study and introspection.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

[Didaskomenos]

Guys, you're still working on me. I have distrusted the beliefs of end-times people for years, before I even heard of other options. It all seemed wrong to me, but I don't to this day know why. It seemed as hollow as a lot of other Fundie stances.

One of my college buddies (we were both Bible & Theology majors) took Revelations with a new professor. I became aware that my friend's faith in the prevalent views of eschatology were shaken drastically, as he told me he began to believe a lot of what that professor was telling him. My friend gave me the basics, that the professor was teaching that Revelation was already fulfilled, and he told me that he was shown many convincing evidences for a first century fulfillment. I myself never took this class (although I rue that fact now), because the seeds were only being planted.

I began to frequent this board a number of months ago. I lost some interest in it for a time, but God was working on me, and I decided that I had to know what that professor was teaching about. I happened to come back to this site about a month ago, and lo and behold, there was all this talk about "preterism" in the "Most Recent Discussions" lists. I was shocked to find that in the time I was gone, many of you had started talking about this, just in time for me to start my own quest and come searching. I'm not fully convinced of much yet, but I at least know that there are many issues you preterists are correct on.

Please be patient as I lurk and try to discover the truth. Any full-scale resources you can direct me to will be most appreciated. Your talk on this forum has gotten my gears turning, but I need something more comprehensive and a little less hit-and-run for me to grasp the big picture.

Thanks for sharing!

[jenlu]

Wonderful post...the journey is so rewarding and I've just gotten started(I've long since held a view of past fulfillment of much of the Olivet Discourse)...I'm looking for some of the same resources myself about the difference between full and partial preterism and why full is right and partial is not...full feels sorta right, but I've never gone on feelings and I'd love to have the full scope of differences in front of me...So thanks for asking that question...

[Back To The Future]

Hi,
I have to say that I don't feel so alone anymore in my quest. I have come to believe full preterism and am, pardon the pun, IN Heaven about it.

7 years ago we were in a bible study. We had all different kinds of opinions and such. We were studying Revelation. So To prove a point (although I didn't know at the time, what point I was proving) I made hats for everyone in the group. I went to Burger King and got a bunch of those Crowns they give the kids. I made big circles and placed them on the hat so they could spin. In the circle I had put, pre-trib, post-trib, NO trib and Chicago Trib. (we live just outside Chicago and thats a newspaer.) Then everyone put them on their heads and put the spinner where they wanted it.

I just couldn't take it anymore. I had no clue what I was looking for, but knew the futurist thinking had to go. So I came home and spent hours on the internet searching, pre-trib and Post-trib and one day, I ended up at the Preterist Archive. I was like, what in the world are they talking about. Prophecy fulfilled?? It caught my interest. Even 3 years ago, there was not the info that there is now. Anyway I bought I John Noe book, read it, everyone thought I was nuts and gave it away. But I saved the Preterist stuff in my favorite places. Didn't go back there, for well over a year.

But I keep crying out to the Lord for the truth. I am 50 years old now and I just had to have the truth. So about 3 months ago I went back to the preterist archive along with several other places now. I just knew in an instance that preterism was the truth. I have been just so overwhelmed with graditude for being able to know this truth. I bought another John Noe book. Beyond the End Times. The Rest of the greatest story ever told. I am keeping this one! I read it and then check everything in my Bible. I have a long way to go. But I believe preterism with all my heart and am studying everyday, so I can pass the word along.
Blessings
Nancy :clap:

[truthseeker]

:clap: Good Thread !!!

Can I ask for a simple outline on preterism? I think I feel the way you do but, haven't done any study on it.

I never fell for the "rapture" doctrine because an easy way out just goes against the doctrines of Jesus. I would count it all joy to be a tribulation saint!

Yes, the Kingdom is within you and can be now! To carry it a step further...I feel that when enough of us enter in; the physical manifestations will begin to take place.

:pink: truthseeker

[parousia70]

Originally posted by truthseeker
:clap: Good Thread !!!

Can I ask for a simple outline on preterism? I think I feel the way you do but, haven't done any study on it.



Hi truthseeker!

Here's a great link to an outline on Liberty Universitiy's course on preterism. I think you will find it is the "simple outline" you are looking for!

Liberty U's Preterism course outline (http://www.liberty.edu/courses/theo250/preterism.html)

God Bless,
P70

[truthseeker]

;) thanks parousia70

I briefly checked-out your reference and will go back and read more.

A few of the Scriptures listed; recalled to my mind that the Apostles seemed to enter in to the Kingdom. They worked many miracles, including raising the dead. And whos to say that any of them really tasted death. In fact, I have read in some apocryphal writings that Judas Thomas rose from his tomb (after they had speared him to death in India) and was seen by many.

When the Lord told His disciples how to preach He told them to tell people, and He said it Himself; the Kingdom of God is at hand.

GREAT STUFF

In HIS Love
:pink: truthseeker

[Manifestation1*AD70]

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear (1Peter 3:15).


Hi preterist brother. I have starting a new "personal testimony page" on my web site fall all preterist to give their testimony on how they came to embrace Preterism.

It is hoped that it will help Christians who are not preterist, and don't understand why we believe the things we do that coming to preterism is not just a change of mind but a change of heart and a life changing encounter with the Lord.

It might also help Christians who are younger to understand what is going on.

I am going to add all these great testimony to the page if it is ok with you, so could you all please send me your full name, and the state that you live in and the name you us in this forum, so I can place your real name with your testimony.

Ozarkpreterist Parousia 70 and I all believe this is a good idea. It will be a place to tell people to go too so they can see for themselfs what the Lord is doing.

The page can be seen "on my site" and you can email me your names and the state at preterist1@earthlink.net

Thanks brothers for all your great testimony and your help. Tyrone


PS happy birth day Acts. :clap:

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by Acts6:5
Actually, email and message board debates is what led me to believe in preterism.

About three years ago I was surfing the internet to find some good articles about the continuance of spiritual gifts, and I came across a Church site pastored by a man named Steven Curtis (most preterists on the web know who he is). The article must have been an old one because he was defending the gifts for today. As I searched the site I came across more recent articles, ones on spiritual gifts that seemed to contradict the older teachings. There were articles about the cessation of the gifts, and the Return of Christ in 70AD.

And my response was WHAT?!?!

I emailed him twice, explaining to him that he must not have ever seen the passages Thessalonians, or looked up at the sky and seen the sun, stars, and moon still in their places. Mr. Curtis' replies were very respectful and understanding, but the truth in his words dogged me afterwards. I then joined a Christian Discussion forum, and lo 'n behold, I became friends with a man named John McPherson, who I later found out was a preterist himself (some of you from PreteristPlanet may know of John too).

I vehemently debated John on preterism, although our debates were quite civil and friendly (that couldn't be said of some of the other posters there though), and after a time our debate ended, but John's scriptures still haunted me, just like Mr. Curtis'. I then went on an all out attack on preterism, asking a local TV preacher to refute preterists on his debate show, emailing Dr. D. James Kennedy, warning him that one of his speakers, Dr. R.C. Sproul, was a partial preterist, and so on. I studied the scriptures and searched the internet for the greatest Christian defense against preterism I could muster.

But for all of my zeal, time, and effort, I slowly began to realize (to my horror) that I might have been trying to box with God rather then fight a false doctrine. All of the simple scriptures that Curtis and McPherson challenged me with began to speak, the voices of God's Word getting louder and louder, while my futurist filter beame less and less effective.

One day in February of last year I realized that I could not pretend any longer. I emailed John McPherson and told him that my eschatology had changed. He was ecstatic, to say the least. :)

In Christ,


Acts6:5

Acts this is a great story and it kind of reminds me of Paul's story in the Bible. I have been a full preterist for over 20 years now and your story reminds my of how some of us, fight with God when coming to the preterist view.

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by jenlu
These are fascinating stories and keep em comin'...

BTW...all these stories make me think of something...We are all in here trying to convince, persuade, and many other things to allow people to see what we see...But, in all these stories and I'm sure hundreds more it took something within yourself to allow the opening of the mind to other possible ideas...for some it is failed predictions, for others it was how things didn't just add up and I'm sure many other different things that contributed to the searching of these truth's...So trying to convince on a message board will probably be futile, so don't get to worried...The seeds have definitely been planted with many and I'm sure they will bear fruit...

Great story jenlu. And your are also right, as seen by all the testimony. We can only plant the seed but God has to make it real to the spirit and heart.

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by jenlu
Wonderful post...the journey is so rewarding and I've just gotten started(I've long since held a view of past fulfillment of much of the Olivet Discourse)...I'm looking for some of the same resources myself about the difference between full and partial preterism and why full is right and partial is not...full feels sorta right, but I've never gone on feelings and I'd love to have the full scope of differences in front of me...So thanks for asking that question...

Hi brother. You should find this like of some help if you have not all ready been there.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/index.html

[davo]

G'day Folks :)

I was born into a Baptist family [my dad being a pastor], and unlike lots of Baptist folk down here we were strongly Amillennial with an Idealist' slant. I knew why I didn't believe Premillennial Dispensationalism but didn't know much about anything else. In 1986 I decided to explore the Post Millennial view and purchased J Marcellus Kik's "Eschatology of Victory." As I was reading it I was constantly agreeing with what I was reading, and one or two times refering to the dust cover just to check that it wasn't amill. This was the start of my journey to where I am today .

What appealed to me about the whole Post-Mill postion was it seemed very positive. From there [about 4 years later] I discovered what I thought then was "pay-dirt" -I found David Chilton's "Paradise Restored" and then "The Days of Vengeance" [both brilliant books]. I learnt that it was considered "Partial Preterist." In 1993 I read John Noe's "Apocalypse Conspiracy" [which he obviously now holds a somewhat different view] -it was heavily "Idealistic" but for me "too far out there," but good fodder for personal application. But having embraced Chilton's angle on things I found Noe's way not concrete enough for me.

In Chilton's "The Days of Vengeance" he made a couple of references to the works of Max King [considered as the main proponent of the "fulfilled" position in eschatology since the the likes of J.Stuart Russell's "The Parousia" in 1887]. In '98-'99 I looked into "Covenant Eschatology" -preterism, but not being convinced battled with it for awhile. My problem wasn't so much Jesus' Bodily return in His Church, but all the implications that went along with it -one big one at the time was "no more devil" -I reckoned "nice thought, but really?" But the more I read the more I was coming to see my paradigm was starting to shift. With the patient help of some folk at 'Living Presence' website things started to fall into place. In 2000 I decided to "jump" and embrace the "fulfilled" view of eschatology -and I'm not looking back. :)

Well that's part of my story so far. God is incredibly gracious and good, and I too have had a renewed walk with God, and I've since come to realise that the reason why, when all those years ago when I asked Him into my life, that He did, was because -[b]He's Already Here!! :clap:

davo

[jenlu]

Hey davo...

What's the difference between postmilleniasm and partial preterism...thanks...

[davo]

Originally posted by jenlu
Hey davo...

What's the difference between postmilleniasm and partial preterism...thanks...

One can be post-mill without being preteristic. Post-mill sees Christ coming AFTER the millennium. Pre-mill sees Christ coming BEFORE the millennium. A-mill sees the millennium BETWEEN Christ's Advents [spiritually] but still sees a future physical coming -I used to hold to this view.

Covenant eschatology -preterism, like A-mill sees the millennium between Christ's Advents [spiritually], yet sees Christ's final coming in a spiritual sense also -literal but not physical [though physically evidenced in the literal destruction of Jerusalem, in and around AD70].

So with regards to how the millennium is specifically viewed, traditionally the 4 views are:

Post-millennial -[church fathers]
A-millennial -[church fathers]
Pre-millennial -[church fathers]
Pre-millennial Dispensationalism -[approx 175 yrs]

How eschatology/prophecy is viewed, there are also 4 traditional views:

Preterist -complete and established.
Idealist -in principle, always current.
Historist -literally fulfilled across the sweep of history.
Futurist -much unfulfilled and yet to occur.

davo

[jenlu]

davo

Isn't post-millenial kinda the same as PARTIAL preterism...I know full preterism is different than postmillenialism, but I'm asking about partial preterism...
The reason why I ask is, I've never really heard of all these terms for all these type's of beliefs...I just believe what I believe(growing and changing a lot) and have yet to have a "label" as one may say...just want to see where I may fall...

[Autumn]

Okay, what is preterism? You believe that Christ has already come back? I believe that Christ will come again, but that doesn't mean that I don't believe that His work was complete on the cross. I realize that my old sinful self has been crucified with Christ, and His Holy Spirit lives within me. That we are called to be Holy, letting Him work through us. From what I read you didn't think that that was possible believing that Christ has not yet come for the second time.

[parousia70]

Hi Autumn,

The Bible is clear that salvation is not complete until Christ appears a 2nd time.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Preterists affirm that our salvation is now complete, while futurists, by default, claim we are still waiting for it.

Yes, Christ returned, on time, as promised, within the disciples generation, in the Glory of the Father, before some of them had physically died.

[jenlu]

Parousia,
That verse is one that I can't fully come to grips with...is appear in there actually visually whether with spiritual or physical eyes...also, didn't He "come" or "appear", if that can be used, to those also who weren't eagerly waiting for him in judgement...

Also...if appear is with spiritual eyes, could that not be when one is converted...In the spiritual sense from then on you will always be with the Lord...

Thanks for your help...

[davo]

Originally posted by jenlu
Isn't post-millenial kinda the same as PARTIAL preterism...I know full preterism is different than postmillenialism, but I'm asking about partial preterism...
The reason why I ask is, I've never really heard of all these terms for all these type's of beliefs...I just believe what I believe(growing and changing a lot) and have yet to have a "label" as one may say...just want to see where I may fall...

Yes that's correct :) [Labels ARE a pain -yet kinda handy :cool: ]

davo

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by Autumn

Okay, what is preterism? You believe that Christ has already come back? I believe that Christ will come again, but that doesn't mean that I don't believe that His work was complete on the cross. I realize that my old sinful self has been crucified with Christ, and His Holy Spirit lives within me. That we are called to be Holy, letting Him work through us. From what I read you didn't think that that was possible believing that Christ has not yet come for the second time.

Hi Autumn. You are missing two biblical points here.

(1) Before anyone in our day and time can assign verses in the New Testament about the Lord's return to our future, they must first prove that the (Old Testament Prophets ) clearly distinguished between two different coming of Christ.

Where does the OT prophets distinguish between "a coming in redemption" versus "a coming in judgment?" This king of language is not used by the Jewish prophets. (see Isa. 35:4-6, 40:10-11, 61:1-2, 62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16; Zech. 14; and Mal.4:1-6) A vital point, totally ignored, is that the Jewish prophecy never implied two comings divided by centuries.

The language used closely connects the coming of the Lord with both salvation and vengeance (judgment). Nowhere does the OT teach a "second coming" to fulfill the rest of the things he was unable to fulfill the first time. And Jesus ever distinguish between his first coming? (Matthew 26:62-64).

(2) Christ's work was "not" completed at the cross because Paul made this statement years after the cross. And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand.

According to the inspired Apostle Paul, the day of salvation was at hand years after the cross. :scratch:

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by jenlu
Parousia,
That verse is one that I can't fully come to grips with...is appear in there actually visually whether with spiritual or physical eyes...also, didn't He "come" or "appear", if that can be used, to those also who weren't eagerly waiting for him in judgement...

Also...if appear is with spiritual eyes, could that not be when one is converted...In the spiritual sense from then on you will always be with the Lord...

Thanks for your help...

If I may help.

In order to get a good grip into understanding Hebrews we must immerse ourselves in the Jewish culture, history, and religion of the Old Testament if we hope to go any further and deeper in our understanding of the Bible.

The Jews never had the concept of a second coming, and since it was the Jews who first taught the notion of a Messiah via the Jewish prophets it seems quite reasonable to respect their inspired witting more then our traditions or anyone else's uninspired opinion today.

Nowhere does the OT teach a "second coming" to fulfill the rest of the things he was unable to fulfill the first time. In fact the only place in the NT which even comes close to teaching a (second advent) is Heb. 9:28 where it says Christ will (appear a second time). This was using the symbolism of the High Priest at Yom Kippur when he took the blood into the holy place and then reappeared back outside the Temple to announce that atonement had been accomplished (see Leviticus 9).

Every first century Jew, understood this to be simply a reappearance of the High Priest-Christ out of the Holiest of ALL to tell the saints that God the Father had forgiven their sin forever (Hebrew 9:24). When the literal temple in Jerusalem was destroyed it was a literal sign to the saints that Jesus sacrifice had been accepted by God the father and the way into the Holiest of All was now open to all the saint (Hebrews 10:19-21).


Read Levitcus 9 and Hebrews 9 and you will see the very same picture. I hope this helps brother.

[Autumn]

Originally posted by Manifestation1*AD70


Hi Autumn. You are missing two biblical points here.

(1) Before anyone in our day and time can assign verses in the New Testament about the Lord's return to our future, they must first prove that the (Old Testament Prophets ) clearly distinguished between two different coming of Christ.

Where does the OT prophets distinguish between "a coming in redemption" versus "a coming in judgment?" This king of language is not used by the Jewish prophets. (see Isa. 35:4-6, 40:10-11, 61:1-2, 62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16; Zech. 14; and Mal.4:1-6) A vital point, totally ignored, is that the Jewish prophecy never implied two comings divided by centuries.

The language used closely connects the coming of the Lord with both salvation and vengeance (judgment). Nowhere does the OT teach a "second coming" to fulfill the rest of the things he was unable to fulfill the first time. And Jesus ever distinguish between his first coming? (Matthew 26:62-64).

(2) Christ's work was "not" completed at the cross because Paul made this statement years after the cross. And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand.

According to the inspired Apostle Paul, the day of salvation was at hand years after the cross. :scratch:


I disagree. I take the Bible as a whole. If the New Testament speaks of a second coming, then I will believe it. What about Matt 24:30? When did Jesus come in the clouds? When Jesus speaks in Luke 17:20 He is speaking of the Holy Spirit when He speaks of the Kingdom of God. He goes on to say that it will be evident when He (jesus) returns. If it has already happened, how is it we don't know? When did He come?

[jenlu]

So manifestation,
You don't believe in a second coming at all...or are you saying the second, which happened within 40 years, is part of the first...don't get me wrong...I understand the importance of the O.T. to the understanding of the N.T. and your explanation of Hebrews was very insightful...Let me just say...I believe all was accomplished at the cross, and the generation there after...


On to another subject...it was either Chilton or Demar that looks at prophecy as being fulfilled in three stages or something like that...Like this...Christ absolutely defeated His enemies on the cross, over time he will continually defeat his enemies, and finally on the actual Last day he will defeat his enemies...Hope I didn't butcher it, but you know what I mean...what do you think about this...

[Didaskomenos]

Manifestation said,
In fact the only place in the NT which even comes close to teaching a (second advent) is Heb. 9:28 where it says Christ will (appear a second time).

Well, in Acts 1:11, the angels say, "'Men of Galilee, why do you stand here looking up into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will come back in the same way you saw him go into heaven.'"

However you interpret that, it seems as clear as Heb 9:28.

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by jenlu
Hey davo...

What's the difference between postmilleniasm and partial preterism...thanks...

Hi again Jenlu. To tell the truth. There is really no such thing as a "partial preterist." You either believe Jesus'words that all thing are filled and your a preterist. Or you don't and your a futurist. Before I became a preterist I believed that some of the thing were fufilled and I was a futurist.

When it come to believing the words of God-Jesus there is not center ground. You either believe "all the prophecy were fulfilled" and you are a preterist. Or you don't believe "all the prephecy were fulfilled and you are a futurist. The is no center ground as some would have you to believe.

[jenlu]

thanks manifestation

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
Manifestation said,


Well, in Acts 1:11, the angels say, "'Men of Galilee, why do you stand here looking up into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will come back in the same way you saw him go into heaven.'"

However you interpret that, it seems as clear as Heb 9:28.

Hi Didaskomenos I will be more then glad to interpret that verse biblicaly. The angel presented spiritual truths. This question arises often. Let's look at the verse...Who also said, "'Men of Galilee, why do you stand here looking up into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will come back in the same way you saw him go into heaven.'" (Acts 1:11)

What was the manner (fashion) that the disciples saw him go into heaven? Verse nine contains the answer. Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight (Acts 1:9) Verse eleven is speaking of the manner of Jesus' going into heaven.

What was that manner? A cloud received Him out of their sight. Now just to see if we are correct in our exegesis of these verses, let's ask another question. Did Jesus ever mention his return in the manner of clouds? Jesus said to him, 'It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you , hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on theclouds of heaven." (Matthew 26:64)

As you can see, these verses bear witness that Jesus returned in the same like manner as he appeared in the Old Testament. In the clouds. One of the easiest things is letting the Bible speak for itself. One of the more difficult things is letting the Bible speak for itself.

[davo]

So many don't "hear" the fulfilled message because of inadequate explanation on our part -especially when it seems our message devalues the Cross -though it doesn't in any way. There is a subtle yet crucial difference here, and it is this: Salvation was established through the Cross, NOT at the Cross.

Through the Cross came salvation, that was then in the first century church being perfected [not that it was in any way inadequate], but there was an outworking to perfection of this salvation. Paul indicates this:

Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Paul elsewhere says: "you don't hope for what you already have." Righteousness i.e., salvation was there "hope" It was "...salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1Pt 1:5. And yes Paul elsewhere does speak of it in language that suggests a completed work -it was complete in a postional sense, as in they had the down-payment of it -the Holy Spirit. Yet there was to come a day [The Day of the Lord] of consumation, when that which was initiated in Christ's ministry and ratified by the Cross came to completion at His Parousia in and around AD70 [as no man knew the day nor hour -though they had the signs to look for].

Again, it is important to state that salvation came by means of the Cross, not at it. [Think about it -if it all happened at the Cross, then resurrection was not necessary].

davo

[Autumn]

"Reports will reach you that the Son of Man has returned and that he is in this place or that. Don't believe such reports or go out to look for him. For when the Son of Man returns, you will know it beyond all doubt. It will be as evident as the lightning that flashes across the sky."


Ummm....I have doubts.

[Autumn]

Guys,
I know that the resurrection was necessary. You are taking apart my words. What I meant was that Christ not only died on the cross for my sins, but my old sinful self was crucified there too. Once He was resurrected death was conquered. I'm sorry that I confused you with my wording. I only want to live my life for God, letting Him do His will through me.

[Mike Beidler]

Originally posted by Autumn
"Reports will reach you that the Son of Man has returned and that he is in this place or that. Don't believe such reports or go out to look for him. For when the Son of Man returns, you will know it beyond all doubt. It will be as evident as the lightning that flashes across the sky."


Ummm....I have doubts.

... for the simple reason that you were not there as an eyewitness.

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by davo
So many don't "hear" the fulfilled message because of inadequate explanation on our part -especially when it seems our message devalues the Cross -though it doesn't in any way. There is a subtle yet crucial difference here, and it is this: Salvation was established through the Cross, NOT at the Cross.

Through the Cross came salvation, that was then in the first century church being perfected [not that it was in any way inadequate], but there was an outworking to perfection of this salvation. Paul indicates this:

Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Paul elsewhere says: "you don't hope for what you already have." Righteousness i.e., salvation was there "hope" It was "...salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1Pt 1:5. And yes Paul elsewhere does speak of it in language that suggests a completed work -it was complete in a postional sense, as in they had the down-payment of it -the Holy Spirit. Yet there was to come a day [The Day of the Lord] of consumation, when that which was initiated in Christ's ministry and ratified by the Cross came to completion at His Parousia in and around AD70 [as no man knew the day nor hour -though they had the signs to look for].

Again, it is important to state that salvation came by means of the Cross, not at it. [Think about it -if it all happened at the Cross, then resurrection was not necessary].

davo

You have said it all :clap:

[Didaskomenos]

Manifestation,
I understand the argument, and appreciate it. But your statement was that only Hebrews 9:28 said anything that could be interpreted as a prediction of a second advent. I merely pointed out that another verse could be just as likely construed as the Hebrews verse.

[Didaskomenos]

Thanks Davo, that adds a new dimension to my understanding of preterist theology. I can't believe how articulate you all are :)

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
Manifestation,
I understand the argument, and appreciate it. But your statement was that only Hebrews 9:28 said anything that could be interpreted as a prediction of a second advent. I merely pointed out that another verse could be just as likely construed as the Hebrews verse.

I got you brother. But my point is that Hebrews 9:28 is the only place in the New Testament that mentions the word "second" as in second coming.

I say this because the biblical Jews the Jew of Jesus' day, never had a concept of a "second coming."

They say one short fulfillment period with two phases to it. A suffering saving humiliation phase and a victorious consummation phase that would all take place in one generation (Matthw 24:34).

This is the way the Jews have always viewed it and it is seen all throughtout the Bible. This is one of the many areas that the church has failed to see. They did not conceive of two differnt advents separated by a long indefinite time period as seen in the Old Testanent. The understood only one event with two phases.

[Didaskomenos]

Oh, okay. I got you brother ;) Good point, btw.

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Autumn
"Reports will reach you that the Son of Man has returned and that he is in this place or that. Don't believe such reports or go out to look for him. For when the Son of Man returns, you will know it beyond all doubt. It will be as evident as the lightning that flashes across the sky."


Ummm....I have doubts.

Hi Autumn,
What translation were you quoting?
Mind if we examine a different translation of that, and a paralell verse?

Matt 24:26-27 (NKJ)
Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Luke 17:23-24
And they will say to you, 'Look here!' or 'Look there!' Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.

First of all, I don't see in any accurate translation of the original Greek the term "beyond all doubt". It simply isn't there and must be a translators addition.

Second, Jesus is specific that no one will be able to say "Look, there He is". That should raise the first red flag. If You and I were standing together, you were looking at the ground and I at the sky, I see Jesus descending on a literal cloud, surly I could say to you "look, there He is!", but Jesus is quite clear that if I say that, you are not to believe me.
How do you reconcile that?

Third, His coming was to be like Lightning.
Is lightning a global event?
If I am in Oregon and see lightning, would my friend in Japan see the same lightning at the same time?

Lightning is local.


Just a few points to get you thinking......

Peace,
P70

[Manifestation1*AD70]

These is much to be said on just this one verse that it is necessary we take another complete look at the verse to deal with the remaining parts of the Bible. Matthew 24,is also a chapter that is impossible to give to any other time factor than a past fulfillment.

verse 30 with its reference to "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" and "the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven" is inseparably connected with the same event considered in the previous verse, having to do with the destruction of Jesusalem.

It is just not possible to separate these things into separate time zones separated be hundreds of years. If the return of Christ comes immediately after the tribulation then our futurist brother have a big problem because the disciples and history state the great tribulation happened before A.D. 70 (1 Thessalonians 1:1-12). Paul here states that they were going through the tribulation Jesus spoke of then. Another bit of confusion comes from the fact that most Bible students confuse the sign.

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). What most students of the Bible miss is that the return of Christ was to be a sign that He was in heaven. "The sign of the Son of man IN HEAVEN" is the sign of proof that the Son of man is in heaven (as it says), in fulfillment of Daniel 7:13-14 which predicted that the Son of man would come "with the clouds of heaven" and "TO THE ANCIENT OF DAYS" (in heaven, to receive His everlasting kingdom.

His appearing in judment was proof of that. Remember, the disciples had asked, "What shall be the (sign of thy coming,) and of the end of the world (age)?" The very act of God's destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem itself through the instrumentality of the Roman armies was the manifestation of the power and glory of the Son of man, and it was proof to the Jewish people of the Massiahship of the Lord Jesus Christ that he (was in heaven). Remember they did not believe He we God.

The judgment upon Jesusalem was the (sign) of the fact that the Son of man was ruling and reigning in heaven. These has been misunderstanding due to the reading of this verse, as some have thought it to be 'a sign in heaven; But this is not what the verse says; it says the (sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

The phrase 'in heaven' defines the locality of the Son of man and not of the sign. A sign was not to appear in the heavens, but the destruction of Jesusalem was to indicate the rule of the Son of man (in heaven). The location spoken of by Jesus is heaven, not just the sky; second, it is not the sign which is in heaven, but the Son of Man who is in heaven.

The point is simply that this great judgment upon Israel, the destruction of Jesusalem and the Temple, would be the sign that (Jesus Christ is enthroned in heaven, ruling over the nations and bringing vengence upon His enemies (1 Thessalonians 1:1-12) The location spoken of by Paul in verse 7 of Thessalonians is (from heaven not the sky. The judgement was the visible proof that the Son of Man was bringing vengence upon His enemies from heaven.

[parousia70]

It's a Bump fest!

[The Simpleton]

Hello all. This is new (to me) and interesting point of view. I’m not a Preturist or a partial Preterist. I’m a Futurist but my mind is open to study the possibilities posed here. I have 3 questions which I am curious of. :scratch:

1) Do you Preterists go to Church and if so, does your Church share your views. It would be hard for me to go to Church and hear a doctrine that doesn’t agree with my views. I haven’t heard of a Preterist Church but then, before a few days ago, I hadn’t heard of Preterism?

2) It would seem to me that Preterists accept Jesus Christ as the key to salvation just as do Futerists and partial Preterists. As a Futurist, I personally don’t see why Preterists wouldn’t receive salvation from Christ even if they are wrong on this issue of Christ’s return. Do Preterists and partial Preterists feel the same way about Futurists?

3) Do any Futurists out there feel that the Preterists salvation is in peril based on their point of view?

[davo]

Originally posted by The Simpleton
Hello all. This is new (to me) and interesting point of view. I’m not a Preturist or a partial Preterist. I’m a Futurist but my mind is open to study the possibilities posed here. I have 3 questions which I am curious of. :scratch:

1) Do you Preterists go to Church and if so, does your Church share your views. It would be hard for me to go to Church and hear a doctrine that doesn’t agree with my views. I haven’t heard of a Preterist Church but then, before a few days ago, I hadn’t heard of Preterism?

2) It would seem to me that Preterists accept Jesus Christ as the key to salvation just as do Futerists and partial Preterists. As a Futurist, I personally don’t see why Preterists wouldn’t receive salvation from Christ even if they are wrong on this issue of Christ’s return. Do Preterists and partial Preterists feel the same way about Futurists?

3) Do any Futurists out there feel that the Preterists salvation is in peril based on their point of view?

G'day Michael :wave:

1] Most prets "I know" do attend some church. The church I attend is "futurist" -and although the futurism may be a tad annoying at times, the main reason I attend is for good fellowship. Like most folk, I don't make eschatology my basis for fellowship :) .

2] Yes we accept Jesus Christ alone for salvation :clap:

3] I can only give you my impressions based on "some" futurists responces here -and I would have to say -YES, some do think our "fulfilled" view robbs us of our salvation -being labelled "heretics" "cultic" "deceived" or "deceivers" and the like -but you get that :scratch: . Really I think it is more reactionary than sincerely held opinion -but I could be wrong??? Others might be more qualified to answer that.

davo

[Autumn]

Originally posted by Mike Beidler


... for the simple reason that you were not there as an eyewitness.

No, because I haven't heard about it until now, and no one seems to be giving me the time when Jesus came. Jesus said that it would be like lightning flashing through the sky. That everyone would know. Why isn't it in the history books then? Why isn't it written about? Why have things remained the same?

[Autumn]

Originally posted by parousia70


Hi Autumn,
What translation were you quoting?
Mind if we examine a different translation of that, and a paralell verse?

Matt 24:26-27 (NKJ)
Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Luke 17:23-24
And they will say to you, 'Look here!' or 'Look there!' Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.

First of all, I don't see in any accurate translation of the original Greek the term "beyond all doubt". It simply isn't there and must be a translators addition.

Second, Jesus is specific that no one will be able to say "Look, there He is". That should raise the first red flag. If You and I were standing together, you were looking at the ground and I at the sky, I see Jesus descending on a literal cloud, surly I could say to you "look, there He is!", but Jesus is quite clear that if I say that, you are not to believe me.
How do you reconcile that?

Third, His coming was to be like Lightning.
Is lightning a global event?
If I am in Oregon and see lightning, would my friend in Japan see the same lightning at the same time?

Lightning is local.


Just a few points to get you thinking......

Peace,
P70

Alright, let me explain.

Matt 24: 27
For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.


No lightening is not global. Yet the way Jesus states this, isn't like actual lightening. He says "as lightning comes from the east and flashes to thewest so also shall the coming of the Son of Man be."

Here I believe Him to be saying that it will be evident from the east to the west.

Matt 24:26-27 (NKJ)
Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Here Jesus is saying that false prophets and false Christs will come, but it will be evident when He comes, so not to be deceived.

Here is the NAS version:
24 "For false Christs and (28) false prophets will arise and will show great (29) signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even (30) the elect.
25 "Behold, I have told you in advance.
26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27 "(31) For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the (32) coming of the (33) Son of Man be.

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Autumn


Alright, let me explain.

Matt 24: 27
For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.


No lightening is not global. Yet the way Jesus states this, isn't like actual lightening. He says "as lightning comes from the east and flashes to thewest so also shall the coming of the Son of Man be."

Here I believe Him to be saying that it will be evident from the east to the west.

Yes, but from the east to the west of "what"?
The entire Earth? The Middle east? Jerusalem?

IF we look at how God uses "lightening" elsewhere in scripture, I believe we can get a good idea of what Jesus means by the comparrison:

I think that by comparing Scripture with Scripture, we can see that lightning refers to God's judgement, not to a bright light of glory that everyone will see. In these Old Testament passages we see local judgements of God described by the use of lightning.

2 Samuel 22:14-15 (NKJV) "The LORD thundered from heaven, And the Most High uttered His voice. 15 He sent out arrows and scattered them; Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.

Psalms 18:14 (NKJV) He sent out His arrows and scattered the foe, Lightnings in abundance, and He vanquished them.

Zechariah 9:14 (NKJV) Then the LORD will be seen over them, And His arrow will go forth like lightning. The Lord GOD will blow the trumpet, And go with whirlwinds from the south.

Habakkuk 3:11-12 (NKJV) The sun and moon stood still in their habitation; At the light of Your arrows they went, At the shining of Your glittering [lightning](Hebrew word "baraq", same word translated to "lightning" in the above verses) 12 You marched through the land in indignation; You trampled the nations in anger.

Habakkuk interprets his imagery as a prophecy of the military invasion of Judah by the Chaldeans.

The Greek word used for lightning in Matthew 24:27 is astrape, it means lightning; by anal. glare:--lightning, bright shining. The same Greek word is also used in other passages that speak of judgement.

Luke 10:18 (NKJV) And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

That speaks of the judgement of God on Satan.

Revelation 16:18-19 (NKJV) And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. 19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

It seems to me, that when Jesus compares his coming to lightning, that he is saying that His coming would be seen in judgement.


Originally posted by Autumn
Matt 24:26-27 (NKJ)
Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Here Jesus is saying that false prophets and false Christs will come, but it will be evident when He comes, so not to be deceived.

Here is the NAS version:
24 "For false Christs and (28) false prophets will arise and will show great (29) signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even (30) the elect.
25 "Behold, I have told you in advance.
26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27 "(31) For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the (32) coming of the (33) Son of Man be.

Again, Lightning is a local event, and Jesus likens His coming to it. It would be local, and it would be seen in Judgement.

I believe it was.

[Auntie]

Originally posted by Autumn

Matt 24:26-27 (NKJ)
Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Here Jesus is saying that false prophets and false Christs will come, but it will be evident when He comes, so not to be deceived.



Autumn,

I agree with you, I don't see how Jesus could have made his statement any clearer! His words were a clear message that His Great Return could NOT be confused with some false Christ in some isolated place like the desert or in a building somewhere. NO! Jesus made it very clear that His Great Return would be SO magnificent that NO ONE will miss it, and that you would NOT learn of it thru gossip or a second hand report! When Jesus returns, the magnitude of that event will not be measureable! Jesus' Great Return will leave no room for doubt or question, it will be MORE than evident to ALL.

[Acts6:5]

And yet Jesus says if a person says "Look...", then we are not to believe. The locations (desert, building, wherever) vary in Jesus' example. But the one unifying term that Jesus points to is "Look". If someone says "look, He is...", then the Christ has not come. So how can it be obvious to all? Jesus said that His coming would be like lighting from East to West (not North to South, though :)), but He also said that people couldn't say "Look, He is...", and His Kindom would not come with observation. Therefore, the "lightning" description cannot be used to interpret an "all-over-the-world-physical" coming in Matt 24, especially since a bolt of lightning does not travel hundreds of miles and is not seen across the planet, and His kingdom would not come with observation. That last point is crucial for you to understand. Lightning can be seen from the "east to the west", but only in a local environment, so even that supports a local judgment.

I'd also like to ask futurists; if Jesus is coming back on a literal cloud that can be seen physically, and since we know this world is a globe, then how will Jesus be seen all over the world at the same time? If He comes on a cloud above Pittsburg, Pennsylvania how will the people in Syndey, Australia see Him at the same time? Even a celestial orb like our moon can only be seen by us at certain periods of the the day.

I'm certainly not doubting God's abilities, but I am doubting man's perception of Matt 24.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

[at_the_river]

His Great Return could NOT be confused with some false Christ in some isolated place like the desert or in a building somewhere.

Dear Ms. Bellum,

Forgive the interruption, but we have to debunk this notion put in our heads by the good folks at Sweet Publishing. Jerusalem was not a hick town full or nomads and loose camels walking about. For a moment, go back in time.

You are a citizen of Jerusalem. You live in THE LARGEST center of economic enterprise in the known world shy of perhaps Rome. Why? You live in the gateway to the east. Your city is effectively New York City. The very rich of Rome own vacation homes here that look out over the Sea of Galilee. Capernum was the Palm Beach of Rome.

That little temple that many futurist think was so insignificant was taller than Cheops' Greatest Pyramid. It was 40 stories tall.

It held the entire wealth of Judea. It was the World Trade Center of the middle east.

In fact, if you remember how devestated you were after September 11th....look at those magnificent towers again falling to the ground, with nothing left but a now empty crater. No sign of it having stood there but the memorials.

Your temple has just been destroyed in the same manner. The Gold taken from the temple so flooded the market that the value of the Roman currency dropped to near worthless for years. Since Rome "owned the known world" that means the known World's currency!

Still think it was an insignificant event? Do you remember the effect on our economy and the world's economy after 9/11?

The above information has been documented by Dr. Ernest L. Martin, a world renown Archeologist and Theologian who saddly passed away last winter. He had just come back from a major seminar in Jerusalem hosted by Israeli and Palastinian Christian leaders...you know those guys...our brothers and sisters caught in the nightmare that evangelicals here praise God for.

Anyway, he wrote a very interesting book titled the Temples that Jerusalem Forgot. This book details his archeological evidence using the Biblical texts as well as Josephus' writings and the Diary of the guy that raised the place himself, General Titus. Now, who better to know than the guy who's job it was to destroy the temple and all of Jerusalem?

General Titus, to further mock the Jews built Fortress Antonia near the site of the Temple. It was nearly 4 centuries later and occupation by various armies that came in after the fall of the Roman empire, that the ruins of this fort were determined to be the temple by clergy looking for evidence that the prophecy was NOT fullfilled...so someone must have thought it was or why try and find evidence to the contrary?

If Dr. Martin is correct...the supposed West Wall that furturist see as proof that the Temple was not destroyed fully as Jesus said it would, is actually the ruins of this Roman Fort.

To quote a dear friend, "Just a thought."

Thank you for your time to read this.

Your sister in the Lord,
--Beth

[seebs]

I have to say, I wouldn't call Jerusalem or the Temple there "isolated".

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Acts6:5


I'd also like to ask futurists; if Jesus is coming back on a literal cloud that can be seen physically, and since we know this world is a globe, then how will Jesus be seen all over the world at the same time? If He comes on a cloud above Pittsburg, Pennsylvania how will the people in Syndey, Australia see Him at the same time? Even a celestial orb like our moon can only be seen by us at certain periods of the the day.

I'm certainly not doubting God's abilities, but I am doubting man's perception of Matt 24.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Man...what a great point!

All futurists must conceed the point that in order for theirs, or any 2nd coming scenerio to indeed come to pass, it could only happen because of the spiritual aspect of the event.

The only way that all the earth could witness such an event simultainously, would be if the event were "spiritual" in nature.

The futurist is quick explain a "Global", simultainous sighting of a Fleshy, 6 foot tall, 150 lb Jesus, by saying "God is capable of anything", but in the same breath he staunchly denies that the 2nd coming is to be understood as "spiritual" in nature.

Go figure.. :scratch:

[Autumn]

Originally posted by Acts6:5
And yet Jesus says if a person says "Look...", then we are not to believe. The locations (desert, building, wherever) vary in Jesus' example. But the one unifying term that Jesus points to is "Look". If someone says "look, He is...", then the Christ has not come. So how can it be obvious to all? Jesus said that His coming would be like lighting from East to West (not North to South, though :)), but He also said that people couldn't say "Look, He is...", and His Kindom would not come with observation. Therefore, the "lightning" description cannot be used to interpret an "all-over-the-world-physical" coming in Matt 24, especially since a bolt of lightning does not travel hundreds of miles and is not seen across the planet, and His kingdom would not come with observation. That last point is crucial for you to understand. Lightning can be seen from the "east to the west", but only in a local environment, so even that supports a local judgment.

I'd also like to ask futurists; if Jesus is coming back on a literal cloud that can be seen physically, and since we know this world is a globe, then how will Jesus be seen all over the world at the same time? If He comes on a cloud above Pittsburg, Pennsylvania how will the people in Syndey, Australia see Him at the same time? Even a celestial orb like our moon can only be seen by us at certain periods of the the day.

I'm certainly not doubting God's abilities, but I am doubting man's perception of Matt 24.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

The reason that we aren't to believe when someone says "Look..."is because it will be evident when He comes. There will be no questioning about it. He won't appear in some distant land in just one spot...having rumors spread that He is in this land or that. Why would you limit God to our understanding? Could He not appear in the clouds for all to see? Could He not make His appearance that wide known? Let me ask you, How far is the East from the West...does it not go on forever? That is how widespread I believe the coming of Jesus will be.

[davo]

The truth is, they all [in Jerusalem and Judea] saw the 'Coming of the Lord' -in judgment, the facts are -only those who recognised "what they saw" got out of town, in accordance with what Jesus prophesied/warned would come in their [read "this"] generation.

PS: Welcome Beth :wave: -great post! :clap:

davo

[Autumn]

A question has just occured to me.

-If Christ's second coming took place at the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

-And his comming marks the 1000 year, post Satan's binding reign (which would have ended in the year 1070 A.D.) as per Revelation 20:6, "Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years." ver. NAS

-And after that reign, Satan is to be released from the Abyss to decieve the nations;

-And following his release is to be bound along with death and Hades, and cast into the lake of fire:

How then is it that people still die today? Whether the "Death" cast into the lake of fire was physical death, or the second death. You cannot maintain that Christ destroyed physical death, because people still die today; and you cannot maintain that He destroyed the Second Death (i.e. spiritual death), as you believe that saved and unsaved people walk the Earth. And if unsaved people still walk the Earth, then the second death must still exist to punish those who do not believe. Please explain.

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Autumn


The reason that we aren't to believe when someone says "Look..."is because it will be evident when He comes. There will be no questioning about it. He won't appear in some distant land in just one spot...having rumors spread that He is in this land or that. Why would you limit God to our understanding? Could He not appear in the clouds for all to see? Could He not make His appearance that wide known? Let me ask you, How far is the East from the West...does it not go on forever? That is how widespread I believe the coming of Jesus will be.

So what you are saying is that a future to us 2nd coming of Christ will, by necessity, be "spiritual" in nature?

what about after he arrives?
Will He be confined to a throne in Jerusalem?
or will He be everywhere?
Like a Santa on every street corner?

Will we each have our own personal Jesus at our beck and call, or will we have to wait in line with the 2 billion other Christians, just to get a glimpse of Him "face to face"? That'd be a long line!

[Autumn]

Originally posted by parousia70


So what you are saying is that a future to us 2nd coming of Christ will, by necessity, be "spiritual" in nature?

What I am saying is that it will probably be both.

[davo]

Originally posted by Autumn
How then is it that people still die today? Whether the "Death" cast into the lake of fire was physical death, or the second death. You cannot maintain that Christ destroyed physical death, because people still die today; and you cannot maintain that He destroyed the Second Death (i.e. spiritual death), as you believe that saved and unsaved people walk the Earth. And if unsaved people still walk the Earth, then the second death must still exist to punish those who do not believe. Please explain.

G'day Autumn. Only futurists are saying physical death is being done away with -not preterists. It is the Lake of Fire that IS the "second death" i.e., eternal separation from God -the very same way we came into the world, hence needing Christ's salvation. Christ's Coming didn't destroy the "second death" -the Lake of Fire IS the second death.

The number "1000" like other images and numbers in The Revelation carries symbolic significance -1000=10x3power or 10 cubed -a picture of divine completeness, like the cubed city of Rev 21 -a picture of the perfected Church. It is not talking about a literal linear time span.

davo

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Autumn
A question has just occured to me.

-If Christ's second coming took place at the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

-And his comming marks the 1000 year, post Satan's binding reign (which would have ended in the year 1070 A.D.)


His coming in 70 marked the end of the 1000 year reign.
(2 Peter 3), not the beginning.



Originally posted by Autumn
How then is it that people still die today? Whether the "Death" cast into the lake of fire was physical death, or the second death. You cannot maintain that Christ destroyed physical death, because people still die today; and you cannot maintain that He destroyed the Second Death (i.e. spiritual death), as you believe that saved and unsaved people walk the Earth. And if unsaved people still walk the Earth, then the second death must still exist to punish those who do not believe. Please explain.

well, the Bible teaches that physical death continues on into the New Heavens and New earth (Isaiah 65:17-20), and since the New H&E is the final state that is prophesied about, we can be confident that just because physical death still exists there, it dosen't mean Christ isn't victorious over it.

As for punishment goes, are you an annhilationist? do you believe Satan, the false prophet, all the unsaved, etc.. will be extinguished, or do they suffer eternal, conscious punishment?

I'll need to know which side of that you come down on before I can answer your question.

PS..I added some thoughts to my previous post that you replied to, after you replied to it....perhaps you could re-visit it and give me your thoughts...
Thanks Autumn,
P70

[ArtistEd]

Hi all,

I have a couple of questions maybe you can answer for me.

Lightning travels at approx 93,000 miles per second. To give some perspective to this, the initial velocity of a high powered rifle is about 1 mile per second. It really begs a couple of questions

A: If your eye can't see a bullet traveling at 1 mile per second, what do you expect to see traveling at 93,000 times that speed?
B: Just what kind of body can travel at that speed and not disintegrate?

Ed

[parousia70]

Great stuff Ed!

Originally posted by ArtistEd
Hi all,

I have a couple of questions maybe you can answer for me.

Lightning travels at approx 93,000 miles per second. To give some perspective to this, the initial velocity of a high powered rifle is about 1 mile per second. It really begs a couple of questions

A: If your eye can't see a bullet traveling at 1 mile per second, what do you expect to see traveling at 93,000 times that speed?

Uhhhh, nothing

Originally posted by ArtistEd
B: Just what kind of body can travel at that speed and not disintegrate?


Uhhh...A "spiritual" body

[Mandy]

A glorified body like Jesus', that is physical and able to appear in a locked room.

[davo]

New Testament reality: We are the Body of Christ -if you can believe the Scriptures [I do]

davo

[Mandy]

Originally posted by davo
New Testament reality: We are the Body of Christ -if you can believe the Scriptures [I do]

davo

We are the body of Christ, which is very obviously spiritually.

[at_the_river]

G'day Davo! I've been lurking for awhile, but had to put in e-ink the fact that Jerusalem did make a difference and was very significant in its time. The saddest part about reading some of the posts here is that fact that many do not even know the very real repercussions of what they are praying about. The zeal of Zionist in the Middle East only adds fuel to an already hostile and dangerous situation. Our brothers and sisters in Palestine are being shot at, bombed and otherwise terrorized daily, while we banter back and for "how soon is soon." (Personally, I think its second coming envy...if it already happened, I missed out! :D )

I believe it was Ms. Bellum in another thread that feared a fulfilled view because it would cause trouble in an already divided church. Actually, fulfilled prophecy has been called the penicillin for the disease of hate in the middle east by one Scholar that has spent her life studying the effect of millennial views on the policies in the Middle East. Issac and Ishmael have been brought back together and restored to the father. It is the only lasting and true solution to the problems that are in the Middle East. Stability means a decrease in terrorism which shows up here and other western countries. Fringe groups which spin off from such nonsense lose their power to entice new members. Transmillennialism is the only view that is constructive in nature and looks to build a positive future.

Futurism is actually about no future at all. It is destructive and robs people of living for today and dreaming of tomorrow because they fear that it may be their last. At least the board of directors of Liberty University think so...they are pretty upset with their President and founder right now...why go to College when the world may end any moment? Not conducive to increasing enrollment. :confused:

Anyhow, its been fun reading!

-- Beth

[davo]

Originally posted by Mandy
We are the body of Christ, which is very obviously spiritually.

Which puts-paid to the nonsense of physicality -He returned on time -filled His Body with His Presence, which fortunately has a "physical" outworking in this His world in that we minister His grace to others.

Mind you, if one has the mentality that this world is a "hell-hole" and is any time soon to be consumed by some 'dirty devil,' then one is likely to bury one's head in the shifting sands of futurism and cry "get me out of here! [and hope that "soon" doesn't mean soon how you like it to mean soon :) ]

davo

[davo]

Originally posted by at_the_river
...the fact that Jerusalem did make a difference and was very significant in its time. The saddest part about reading some of the posts here is that fact that many do not even know the very real repercussions of what they are praying about.

Yes Beth it is sad -there was even one brother over in the "christians only" section [that I used to frequent before being ruptured :D out of there] that gleefully awaited some nuclear action there -and unfortunately me-thinks others under their collective breaths agreed.

"christians only"-kinda brings to mind the exclusivity of 1st century Judaism, whereas God's Gospel is inclusive.

Originally posted by at_the_river
Transmillennialism is the only view that is constructive in nature and looks to build a positive future.
Futurism is actually about no future at all. It is destructive and robs people of living for today and dreaming of tomorrow because they fear that it may be their last.

Certainly, for God has not called us to abdicate our role as world changers [where we are], we are to "plan" and "do" in reaching out and bringing people to the feast of salvation -it's no longer a Battle but a Banquet!

davo

[at_the_river]

Certainly, for God has not called us to abdicate our role as world changers [where we are], we are to "plan" and "do" in reaching out and bringing people to the feast of salvation -it's no longer a Battle but a Banquet!

We were watching "O Brother Where Art Thou" recently and it was quite plain why dreams of golden mansions over on hilltops would have been so appealing during the depression. As one poster pointed out, this whole rapture business did not become a serious doctrine until about 200 years ago. Pretty young as far as doctrines go. To people who had nothing to look forward to, it sure would sound good. But it had a different long term effect.

One thing that I haven't been able to understand is why would God needs Russia or any other country for that matter to destroy who ever else to convince Christ it's time to come here now? Couldn't Christ just do that himself with is army of angels and avoid the middle man?

I'm being light hearted above, but I'm serious when I ask "How would destroying any country now by any invading army be any different than what already happened to Jerusalem? What more can be done to destroy the power of the holy people than what has already been done? The Law is gone already! We have atonement now, so our salvation is assured. Get the party started! :clap:

--Beth

[Autumn]

Originally posted by davo



Mind you, if one has the mentality that this world is a "hell-hole" and is any time soon to be consumed by some 'dirty devil,' then one is likely to bury one's head in the shifting sands of futurism and cry "get me out of here! [and hope that "soon" doesn't mean soon how you like it to mean soon :) ]

davo
If Christ is living in us, then it is not our will that we are living, but His. After all that He endured, I do believe that we can fulfill our mission here on earth. It doesn't matter what we want, but what God wants.

[Autumn]

Originally posted by parousia70


So what you are saying is that a future to us 2nd coming of Christ will, by necessity, be "spiritual" in nature?

what about after he arrives?
Will He be confined to a throne in Jerusalem?
or will He be everywhere?
Like a Santa on every street corner?

Will we each have our own personal Jesus at our beck and call, or will we have to wait in line with the 2 billion other Christians, just to get a glimpse of Him "face to face"? That'd be a long line!

I think that time is not as we know it. That He will be with us all. I understand your points...although some really aren't that apparent or clear to me. I simply would like for you, or anyone that can, to fully and clearly explain to me why all prophecy in the Bible has been fulfilled. Give me examples. This is completely new to me, and if it is the truth, because I love the Lord with all of my heart, I think that He can use you to show me.

[Autumn]

Just one more question. Where are we today? Will we just be with Christ in heaven? How does all of this fit in the whole scope of things? Will the earth and living as we know it continue on and on?

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Autumn


I think that time is not as we know it. That He will be with us all. I understand your points...although some really aren't that apparent or clear to me. I simply would like for you, or anyone that can, to fully and clearly explain to me why all prophecy in the Bible has been fulfilled. Give me examples. This is completely new to me, and if it is the truth, because I love the Lord with all of my heart, I think that He can use you to show me.

What I was attempting to show from my "points" is that a return of a single 6ft, 150lb fleshy Jesus to sit on a throne in Jerusalem, just dosen't work, no matter how you slice it.
Whether you view it as past or future, the 2nd coming must be spiritual in nature.

Next let me quickly dispell this notion that preterists believe all prophesy has been fulfilled. Preterists believe all eschatology, ie:end times/last days prophesy, has been fulfilled, but preterists recognize that there are prophesies that continue to unfold and be fulfilled daily, on into the future, "world without end, Amen".

As for examples, I always like to start with Luke 21:20-22 when Showing someone why I subscribe to preterism:

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Autumn, ask yourself what Jesus meant by that? What was Jesus telling the Apostles? He is speaking directly to them, telling them they would see this event. Notice He says "when you see Jerusalem surrounded", not "If you see" but "When you see" because Jesus knew they would see it. then He goes on to claim that at that time they saw it, all things written would be fulfilled.

The next question you should ask yourself is, What does "all things written" mean?

Jesus, later in Luke, Tells us:
Luke 24:44
Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

And for even more precident, we find written in Galatians:
Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

If that weren't enough, it is written in Acts:
Acts 24:14
But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.

When you really compare scripture with scripture, you'll be hardpressed to "explain away" Jesus declaration in Luke 21, while maintaining any scriptural integrity. Jesus meant what He said, and I believe Him.

Originally posted by Autumn
Just one more question. Where are we today? Will we just be with Christ in heaven? How does all of this fit in the whole scope of things? Will the earth and living as we know it continue on and on?[/color]

Wee are living in the eternal new covenant age. When we shed our earthly tent, yes we "Just" get to go to heaven and be with Christ forever, for that is where our inheritance is.(1 Peter 1:4), the same inheritance promised to Abraham, and just like Abraham, we are pilgrims and strangers on the earth, and we seek the "better country" of Heaven. (Hebrews 11:13-16)

Lastly, Scripture testifies that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21).

I must say I was impressed by your tone, God will show you, perhaps through us, what is right. Don't take our word for it, but search the scriptures to see if it is so.
None of us came to this view lightly, or overnight. In my case it took a few years of prayer and study before I accepted it as truth. Generally, all preterists used to be futurist, and we have asked the same questions you are asking, and have all found more than adaquate answers from the preterist perspective. While the lions share of preterists are ex futurists, you'll be hardpressed to find an ex preterist. I have yet to find one and have been looking for one for years.

God bless,
P70

[Kelier]

Originally posted by Manifestation1*AD70
How I came to embrace Preterism.


I would like to share with you how I came to embrace Preterism. You know how we are always hearing about the rapture and the end of the world coming on the television and radio programs. Well I was a futurist also and spent my time at night, listening to them preach on this subject over the radio.

One night while I was listening to them on the radio I fell into a deep sleep. While I was sleeping I started to feel as though I was on fire, and running a very high temperature, but yet I was still asleep.

Then I heard a voice from what I assumed to be the radio saying, "we are not living in the last days, Jesus has come."

As I begin to awake, I suddenly realized that I had also been crying in my sleep and found myself chanting over and over again "I love you Jesus." My pillow was soaking wet as though someone had saturated it with a bucket of water. All this happened between 1 and 2 AM.

The next night, I listened to the very same radio station but never heard anything like that again. From that point on it seemed like God had burned something deep within my soul forever. I would come home from work, spending hours studying. I even stayed in the house all weekend, closely examining the Bible. Studying the Bible almost become a obsession to me. It was like taking a drink of the clear water of life that proceeds from the throne of God and I could not stop drinking it.

I must admit that at first I really struggled, questioning if what I now saw in the Bible was really true. But as God promised, the more I looked for Him the more truth I found.

Many things fell into place like never before, and the Bible seemed to come alive. God opened my eyes to see who the New Testament letters were written to and why. I began, to understand the key to any passage of Scripture is a careful study into the language, culture, politics, and the historical setting in which it was originally written.

Rich nuggets of truth came forth from my daily studies in the book of Hebrews. As I studied, I learned that it takes the "cross, resurrection, and return of Christ" to complete our salvation. I learned to see things from God's perspective and not mans, that Death, to God, means to be separated from Him.

Spiritual Death is an enemy because it keeps people from God. God loved man and desired to be with him and be his God. This was not possible until Jesus Christ returned and removed the Old Covenant. God’s light and truth lead me to His holy hill and to His dwelling.

I could see more clearly than ever the face of God. God dwells in me like the Old Testament promised and I dwell in His glory because of the completed work of Christ. It is like the writer of Hebrews says we can now enter the Holiest by the blood of Christ (Hebrews 10:19).

I never pray anymore "dear Lord in heaven," for God now dwells-tabernacles within me. I am glad to call myself a preterist because if it were not for God opening my eyes, I would not be one today. :clap:

How do you know it wasn't the voice of satan? Satan appears as an angel of light. Futurists also believe that God dwells in us, but we also know that Jesus is going to redeem what His creation.

[davo]

Originally posted by Kelier
How do you know it wasn't the voice of satan? Satan appears as an angel of light. Futurists also believe that God dwells in us, but we also know that Jesus is going to redeem what His creation.

G'day Kelier :wave: I've got some really good news for you -Jesus has already completely defeated Satan, lock-stock-and-two-smokin'-barrels -that's if you can believe the scriptures -I do, guess that makes me a believer -what are you believing?

davo

[Autumn]

Parousia70,
I'll be looking into it, as I have been. Thanks for the info.

Autumn ;)

[parousia70]

My pleasure Autumn :)

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by Kelier


How do you know it wasn't the voice of satan? Satan appears as an angel of light. Futurists also believe that God dwells in us, but we also know that Jesus is going to redeem what His creation.

If one take the time to read his Bible and believed the words of Jesus. He would know the voice of God. Jesus also said my sheep hear him voice. (John 10:27) :clap:

I know the voice of God how about you?

[Autumn]

Parousia 70,

If preterists believe that the reason Christ had to have come "soon" as in 70A.D. is because that is what the disciples would have believed Jesus to mean (which I think is a little bit of a stretch for me to believe, since the disciples seemed on very many occasions to understand very little of what Christ said due to the fact that He spoke in Spirit.) Anyway, Peter, one of Jesus' disciples says in

2 Peter 3
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice,beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

If Peter understood that "soon" did not mean right then, then why can't you? :confused:

Another thing that I found as I was reading 2 Peter is this:
The Coming Day of the Lord

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was (15) formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Why would Peter write verse 9 if when the Lord came we would still have a chance to repent and become saved? It appears to me that Peter sees that this earth as we know it and all that roam about it that are wicked will be destroyed. If he did not believe this way, I do not think that he would have used the parellel when all on the earth were destroyed in the flood.

I read your passages about the earth going on forever. The only one that really states such is Ecclesiastes 1:4. However when reading the full passage it seems to me that he is saying that compared to how short human life is, the earth goes on.

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Autumn
Parousia 70,

If preterists believe that the reason Christ had to have come "soon" as in 70A.D. is because that is what the disciples would have believed Jesus to mean (which I think is a little bit of a stretch for me to believe, since the disciples seemed on very many occasions to understand very little of what Christ said due to the fact that He spoke in Spirit.) Anyway, Peter, one of Jesus' disciples says in

2 Peter 3
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice,beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

[color=indigo]If Peter understood that "soon" did not mean right then, then why can't you? :confused:

Peter was indeed saying that God is not slack concerning his promise, He is saying that no matter if God promised to do somehting tomorrow or whether he promised to do it in 1000 years makes no difference to God when it comes to fulfilling that promise. What Peter is not saying is that if God promised to do something tomorrow, He could wait 1000 years to fulfill it, and still be true to His promise.

Every time a time limit is attached to prophesy, it is given to be understood by how time relates to MAN, and not how time relates to God. Every time, without fail, always.

The timing of the prophecy is just as important as the events of the prophecy.

Think about that for a moment.

What purpose would it serve if God gave a specific prophecy of judgment to a wicked nation, telling them that He would fulfill it within a specific time frame, and warned those people of the coming judgment, if the time passages (and the whole prophecy itself for that matter) were actually for some other generation of people? What purpose would the warnings serve the nation to whom it was originally given? To be quite honest, it wouldn’t serve any purpose at all. How would that nation interpret the character and nature of God? That is to say, how would those people view God if He swore that He would judge them at a certain time, and then He didn’t follow through with His judgment? What would they think of God? That He can’t be trusted? That He speaks empty words and threats? That He lied?

When we try and mis-use 2 Peter 3:8-9 as a formula to interpret prophetic time, i.e., that the imminent time statements in the New Testament concerning Christ’s return in the first century are really "for many years from now," i.e., our time, we are saying that God will not fulfill His word! So the real issue here is not just differences of interpretation concerning eschatology, but the nature and character of God. If the futurist is correct in his interpretation and application of 2 Peter 3, then God is made out to be a liar because He will not fulfill His word when He said He would. Plain and simple. If the futurist is correct, then we might as well be atheists because God Himself cannot even be trusted, and then we are lost. Why? Because, if God is dishonest concerning when He would fulfill His word, how do we know He was honest concerning the doctrines of Grace? Or anything else for that matter? It’s simple. We don’t. So, again, this is much more than just a difference of interpretation. Our salvation depends on God keeping every aspect of His word. Including when He was to fulfill it.


Did you notice the other thing about Peter's theology? There is no millennium.
Christ comes and immediatly ushers in the New heavens and earth. Where is the millennium? Did the Holy Spirit fail to lead him into all truth about that?


Originally posted by Autumn
I read your passages about the earth going on forever. The only one that really states such was Ecclesiastes 1:4. However when reading the full passage it seems to me that he is saying that compared to how short human life is, the earth goes on.

What about Psalms 78:69?
Ps 78:69
And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever.

How long is forever?

I'm glad you are searching the scriptures, but I'd still like your take on Luke 21:20-22

If Jesus didn't mean that "all things written" would be fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70, what do you believe He meant when He said "all things written" would be fulfilled then?

Thanks,
In Christ,
P70

[Auntie]

Originally posted by Autumn

Why would Peter write verse 9 if when the Lord came we would still have a chance to repent and become saved? It appears to me that Peter sees that this earth as we know it and all that roam about it that are wicked will be destroyed. If he did not believe this way, I do not think that he would have used the parellel when all on the earth were destroyed in the flood.



Autumn,

That is an excellent point you have made. I have re-read the chapter, and am posting it here:

"2 Peter 3 NLT:
1 This is my second letter to you, dear friends, and in both of them I have tried to stimulate your wholesome thinking and refresh your memory. 2 I want you to remember and understand what the holy prophets said long ago and what our Lord and Savior commanded through your apostles.

3 First, I want to remind you that in the last days there will be scoffers who will laugh at the truth and do every evil thing they desire. 4 This will be their argument: "Jesus promised to come back, did he? Then where is he? Why, as far back as anyone can remember, everything has remained exactly the same since the world was first created." 5 They deliberately forget that God