Perpetual virginity

[arunma]

I've just got a simple question for the Orthodox Christians. Does your church believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary?

While I'm at it, I've got another, completely unrelated question. I've noticed that Orthodox Christians put a stronger emphasis on the Old Testament than Catholics do. Is it just me, or is that true? And if so, what's the reason for this?

[Xpycoctomos]

1) Yes

2) hmmm.. I always thought that perhaps the West did since it is part of their Liturgy while the OT is not read in the Liturgy. But maybe we do. Why do you think so?

[Kolya]

1) Yes (Unreservedly YES)

2) hmmm.. I always thought that perhaps the West did since it is part of their Liturgy while the OT is not read in the Liturgy.?? But maybe we do. Why do you think so?

It's read during Pre-Sanctified.


To arunma: We take the NT to be the fulfilment of the OT. But we do not spend as much time reading from it during divine Liturgy as a Protestant Church would in a sermon.

[prodromos]

It's read during Pre-Sanctified.And during Vespers.

[Theophorus]

and Matins.

[vanshan]

I've just got a simple question for the Orthodox Christians. Does your church believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary?



Yes, we believe that Mary refrained from having marital relations with Joseph. The most common question to that is, "What about the mention of Jesus' brothers in the N.T.?" I have heard that the term translated into English as brother can also refer to other relatives, such as cousins. According to Holy Tradition, which cannot go against the Bible, but rather illuminates some of the vague details or fills in gaps in what was written in the books canonized, we know that Joseph was fairly advanced in age and was appointed by God to act more as a guardian for Mary, rather than being a husband as we would see that union.

I know this doctrine is a stumbling block for some, but this was universally known to be true, until after the reformation when some began to reconstruct the faith throwing out much Holy Tradition.

Welcome to TAW.

Basil

[ufonium2]

Also, we know that James, first bishop of Jerusalem, is the "brother" of the Lord, and Holy Tradition tells us he is Christ's youngest sibling. So if you take that to mean that Mary had several other children by Joseph, and James was the youngest, he would've been at the oldest a teenager when Christ died. Hardly bishop material. It makes much more sense for Jesus to have been the youngest of the "brothers," putting James somewhere between 35-40 when he became bishop.

[Kolya]

A further point to ponder is that if Jesus did have true full-blood brothers and sisters, why was it necessary for Him to commit His mother to the care of St John the Apostle at the cross.

[Rilian]

I've just got a simple question for the Orthodox Christians. Does your church believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary?

Mary and Joseph underwent what in Judaism is known as a betrothal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betrothal). We still refer to St. Joseph (http://www.comeandseeicons.com/phn57.htm) as the "Betrothed".

I've noticed that Orthodox Christians put a stronger emphasis on the Old Testament than Catholics do. Is it just me, or is that true? And if so, what's the reason for this?

A good deal of Judaism, not just the written word, has carried over in to Orthodoxy. The liturgy itself is modeled on the worship that took place in the Temple. We don't see the church as a break from what came before it, it is the fulfillment of what preceded it.

[arunma]

A good deal of Judaism, not just the written word, has carried over in to Orthodoxy. The liturgy itself is modeled on the worship that took place in the Temple. We don't see the church as a break from what came before it, it is the fulfillment of it.

Really? Can you give a few other examples of the similarities between Orthodoxy and Judaism?

[Oblio]

Really? Can you give a few other examples of the similarities between Orthodoxy and Judaism?

Daily cycle of prayer

Liturgical day begins at sunset

[Oblio]

Jewish Components of Early Christian Worship (http://www.liturgica.com/html/litEChLitJ.jsp?hostname=null)

(lots of pages there, this is a good place to start)

[Rilian]

Really? Can you give a few other examples of the similarities between Orthodoxy and Judaism?

I'll add some now and try to think of some later as well. There is a lot of stuff. I think it's important to keep in mind Christianity was a Jewish movement, but it grew out of Second Temple Judaism. In that sense it is not like what most people are familiar with now (i.e. Rabbinic Judaism which arose in parallel to Christianity).

Anyway, a big one coming up for us is Pascha. Orthodox Christians celebrate the resurrection of the Lord on the first Sunday after Passover. We don't have Easter.

Oblio posted a good article about the liturgy, and it mentions a book at the bottom which I've read and is very good in describing in detail how closely aligned the liturgy is with what was Jewish practice at the time. There's another one here - The Temple Roots of the Liturgy (http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/roots). The site that paper is on - Jewish Roots of Eastern Christian Mysticism (http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/) has a number of interesting articles.

Oblio also pointed out probably the most important thing, the practical day to day living, i.e. praxis. The cycle of services, the way time is kept, the rule of fasting we keep - it's all from the Jewish heritage of the church.

[Rilian]

Oh, also one of the most popular saints in my church is the Prophet Elias (http://www.comeandseeicons.com/inp103.htm).

[Monica, child of God]

This is a good little booklet. It is written by an Orthodox Jew who converted to protestant Christianity and then came into Orthodoxy. He is now a priest.
The text is not available on line.

http://conciliarpress.bizhosting.com/orthodoxy_jewish_and_christian_1.html

[Rilian]

Ah yes, I forgot about Fr. James. He wrote a good article called Which Came First: The Church or the New Testament? (http://www.protomartyr.org/first.html).

[Julio]

It's read during Pre-Sanctified.

Actually, it is read during the Vespers portion of the Divine Liturgy of the Presanctified. This is important because in the Church, the reading of the Old Testament belongs in the evening service (with the sole exception of the Psalter; but Old Testament Lessons are also read at the Royal Hours). The ever-memorable Protopresbyter John Meyendorff notes that "the New Testament, read during the eucharistic liturgy, is the fulfilment of the Old" (my italics). By implication, then, this means that the Old Testament is read in the evening service, where because of the darkness of night, we see in shadows and figures, as under the Old Covenant; but the New Testament (and especially the Holy Gospel) is read in the morning services (Matins, Liturgy), when we see clearly in the light of day.

[Rilian]

There's actually a parish in Salt Lake City that's in a former Synagogue, they say the following in their parish history:

In 1994 the parish purchased a Synagogue that was built over a hundred years ago. It faces east, has several small domes on the northwest and southwest corners, and looks "Orthodox".

I thought that was kind of interesting. There's pictures here (http://www.saintspeterandpaulorthodox.org/pictures/index.html).

[Xpycoctomos]

yeah... it kind of "looks Orthodox" lol (Was it the Pantocrator that gave it away or the huge wooden icnostasis in the front?)

[arunma]

Actually, it is read during the Vespers portion of the Divine Liturgy of the Presanctified. This is important because in the Church, the reading of the Old Testament belongs in the evening service (with the sole exception of the Psalter; but Old Testament Lessons are also read at the Royal Hours). The ever-memorable Protopresbyter John Meyendorff notes that "the New Testament, read during the eucharistic liturgy, is the fulfilment of the Old" (my italics). By implication, then, this means that the Old Testament is read in the evening service, where because of the darkness of night, we see in shadows and figures, as under the Old Covenant; but the New Testament (and especially the Holy Gospel) is read in the morning services (Matins, Liturgy), when we see clearly in the light of day.

But I thought somebody said before that the Old Testament isn't part of the Liturgy.

[Rilian]

But I thought somebody said before that the Old Testament isn't part of the Liturgy.

I think what they meant is that the normal Sunday liturgy, outside of special times like Lent, does not have a specific Old Testament reading. There is an epistle and a gospel reading normally.

The Old Testament is in every service though. Parts of the Psalter are chanted at every one.