Peacemakers

[McDLT]

I'm curious as to what others think.

How can we show Christ's peace and be peacemakers actively seeking peace in this day and age?

[aReformedPatriot]

I'm curious as to what others think.

How can we show Christ's peace and be peacemakers actively seeking peace in this day and age?

Like meekness, peacemakers are not to be weaklings to be walked on. Be strength under control.

"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God."

No one likes criticism, but the best way is the route of 2 Timothy 2:24-25:

2Ti 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Also bearing in mind the words of 2 Timothy 3:16-17:

Study your bible, prayer for humility and a gentle spirit, ask God to build you up in strength to overcome all temptation to be mean-spirited.

- My advice
Mark

[SonOfThunder]

ditto The Lords Envoy, well said.

All any of us can do as believers is to be of the same mind as Christ Jesus.

Non Christians and the world have us under a very fragile microcope. Sometimes any wrong doing by the Christian Body will be publically displayed for the wold yo see.

We must imagine this giant spotlight is on us as individuals and everything that Lords Envoy spoke about above.

James

[McDLT]

What about violence and wars? How do you be a peacemaker in that environment? Would you join the military?

[Stefan Davidovich]

What about violence and wars? How do you be a peacemaker in that environment? Would you join the military?



That is a heavy subject. I would say that true peacemakers must go to war at times. In a fallen world peace does not always beget peace. We have a criminal justice system for that very reason. We don't like to put people in jail (and maybe there is a better solution) but we must punish offenders or we'd live in a chaotic world.

Would I join the military? Not unless I thought I had to. I would avoid it as much as possible.

[eldermike]

We don't go to war for our peace, we go to war for our children's peace. Yes, I would join the military again if I could.

[newbeliever02072005]

I'm curious as to what others think.

How can we show Christ's peace and be peacemakers actively seeking peace in this day and age?

A smile is always infectious! :D

[rural_preacher]

Our primary task as Christians is not to promote peace. We are to promote the Truth and be witnesses of Jesus Christ to a lost and dying world.

Jesus said, "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughterinlaw against her motherinlaw" (Matt. 10:34,35).

We are at war with sin, Satan and worldliness:

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Ephesians 6:12).

But we are waging a warfare that is different from this world's warfare:

"For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ" (II Cor. 10:3-5).

However, sometimes the battles we fight take us into various aspects of this world (we are in the world but not of it). We need godly Christians serving in our military and our law enforcement departments. God uses us as His instruments in many different ways.

David was a man after God's own heart and he was a warrior. God used him to bring justice and judgment on the pagan nations that surrounded and infiltrated Israel. Jesus is the same God with whom David walked.

Sometimes war is necessary to bring about justice and peace (albeit temporary). No peace is permanent until the Prince of Peace defeats the unbelieving nations and sets up His Kingdom. But His perfect and permanent peace will be preceded by war to defeat those nations.

-----

"Be selfcontrolled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings" (I Peter 5:8,9).

--

[BT]

Like the rural preacher said

Our enemies are
1. The Flesh
2. The World
3. The Devil

cool beans rp

[Flynmonkie]

Start by reading Galatians! ALL OF IT! Paying special attention to the verses that speak of differences of opinion in Chapter 6. To uplift each other as Christians, not tear down in our individual learning processes. Galatians 6

Keeping in mind these verses where ever we go.....

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.Matthew 22:36-40

Christ sent you to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech 1 Cor. 1:17.

Do not preach with superiority of speech or wisdom 1 Cor. 2:1. (being assured and being condecending are two different things!) Humble ourselves...

A man reaps what He sows Gal 6:7

Prov 12:18 Thoughtless words can wound as deeply as any sword, but wisely spoken words can heal.

For as He thinks in his heart...so is he! Prov 23:7

Gal 5:22-23 NLT But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control.

Once we realize these things.....peacemaking becomes easier. Having self control is keeping your self in touch with the relationship with God - via the Holy Spirit living inside you. We choose when to foster that relationship or not. When we are allowing the Holy Spirit to work through us, peacekeeping becomes second nature. This is just for starters....IOW.....start looking at how we can improve ourselves....and how we can serve others.. :prayer:

:D

[Lockheed]

Rual Preacher nailed it.

Being a "peacemaker" in Biblical terms is not merely someone who makes peace between people but one who promotes the peace of reconcilliation between men and God.
2Co 5:19-20 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

This is how we make peace between men and God and by that peace, men find peace with others, not through false truces and guile, but through a genuine love for others that comes as a result of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Col 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

[TwinCrier]

Excellent responses! I have never yet seen a pacifist or war protestor in any way bring about anything resembling peace. The key to showing Christ's peace is to show Christ.

[McDLT]

I agree with rural preacher on these points:

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Ephesians 6:12).

But we are waging a warfare that is different from this world's warfare:

"For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ" (II Cor. 10:3-5).

I disagree with rural preacher on this point:

Sometimes war is necessary to bring about justice and peace (albeit temporary).

I do not believe there is any justification for physical violence (war). We are under a new covenant. Did not Jesus say in Matthew 5:38 & 39, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Just a few more thoughts.

[Lockheed]

The friendly fast food item said:
I disagree with rural preacher on this point:



Sometimes war is necessary to bring about justice and peace (albeit temporary).

I do not believe there is any justification for physical violence (war). We are under a new covenant. Did not Jesus say in Matthew 5:38 & 39, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Just a few more thoughts.

In quoting the "eye for an eye" law, Christ was correcting the misconception of the people that it gave them a personal right for vengence. Christ does not however tell the centurion or other soldiers to quit their jobs.

In Romans 3, Paul lays out the idea that the government is given a sword for a reason, to secure the peace of the land and punish transgressors. Let's be clear, we're not talking about personal revenge or rebellious war, we're talking about the government of a land making war on its enemies.

God's nature hasn't changed from the Old to New Testaments, and the New Covenant, while a fulfillment of the Old, doesn't change the nature of God and His attributes. God sent the children of Israel into battle many, many, many times against their foe. God also rose up Assyria to go against Israel. Likewise now, it would be unjust for a country to allow an agressor to kill its citizens without defense or response. Hence we have police and and armed force.

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,

"When principles that run against your deepest
convictions begin to win the day, then battle is your
calling, and peace has become sin; you must, at the
price of dearest peace, lay your convictions bare
before friend and enemy, with all the fire of your
faith. "

Abraham Kuyper cited in Farrar,
Steve Standing Tall: How A Man Can Protect his Family [Multnomah, 1994],
p.
113)


Peace to u,

Bill

[BBAS 64]

Our primary task as Christians is not to promote peace. We are to promote the Truth and be witnesses of Jesus Christ to a lost and dying world.

Jesus said, "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughterinlaw against her motherinlaw" (Matt. 10:34,35).

We are at war with sin, Satan and worldliness:

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Ephesians 6:12).

But we are waging a warfare that is different from this world's warfare:

"For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ" (II Cor. 10:3-5).

However, sometimes the battles we fight take us into various aspects of this world (we are in the world but not of it). We need godly Christians serving in our military and our law enforcement departments. God uses us as His instruments in many different ways.

David was a man after God's own heart and he was a warrior. God used him to bring justice and judgment on the pagan nations that surrounded and infiltrated Israel. Jesus is the same God with whom David walked.

Sometimes war is necessary to bring about justice and peace (albeit temporary). No peace is permanent until the Prince of Peace defeats the unbelieving nations and sets up His Kingdom. But His perfect and permanent peace will be preceded by war to defeat those nations.

-----

"Be selfcontrolled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings" (I Peter 5:8,9).

--

:thumbsup: :clap:

Dito...

[ZiSunka]

I'm curious as to what others think.

How can we show Christ's peace and be peacemakers actively seeking peace in this day and age?

Love your enemies with the same love you love your own family. If you do this, you cannot think of them as enemies anymore.

[McDLT]

Here's a brief description of what Anabaptists believe about peace.Here Anabaptists differ from many other Christians. Anabaptists believe that the peace position is not optional, not marginal, and not related mainly to the military. On the basis of Scripture, Anabaptists renounce violence in human relationships. We see peace and reconciliation – the way of love – as being at the heart of the Christian gospel. God gave his followers this ethic not as a point to ponder, but as a command to obey. It was costly for Jesus and it may also be costly for his followers. The way of peace is a way of life. (Taken from Anabaptism: The Basic Beliefs MB pamphlet www.mbconf.ca/believe/pamphlets/anabaptism.en.html (http://www.mbconf.ca/believe/pamphlets/anabaptism.en.html))
And from the MB Confession of Faith, Article 13 (www.mbconf.ca (http://www.mbconf.ca))
Love and Nonresistance

God's Community of Peace

We believe that God in Christ reconciles people to himself and to one another, making peace through the cross. The church is a fellowship of redeemed people living by love. Our bond with other believers of Jesus transcends all racial, social and national barriers.

Christian Peacemaking

Believers seek to be agents of reconciliation in all relationships, to practice love of enemies as taught by Christ, to be peacemakers in all situations. We view violence in its many different forms as contradictory to the new nature of the Christian. We believe that the evil and inhumane nature of violence is contrary to the gospel of love and peace. In times of national conscription or war, we believe we are called to give alternative service where possible. Alleviating suffering, reducing strife, and promoting justice are ways of demonstrating Christ’s love.


Exodus 20:1-17; Matthew 5:17-28; Romans 12:9-21; Romans 13:8-10; 1 Peter 2:19-23
I think this better explains my position. Maybe some other Anabaptists could say how their denomination handles war and violence.

[rural_preacher]

God is Love. But God hates all that is in opposition to Him; therefore, hate is an integral part of true, godly Love. We are not truly loving if we do not hate sin and all that is in opposition to God and His righteousness and justice.
Jesus was very combative in His rebuke of the Pharisees and other "religious" leaders in Israel. He also took the time on two occasions to forcefully drive out the money changers from the Temple. He will also one day come in power to wage war on the unbelieving nations to defeat them and establish His perfect reign of peace. In a sinful world there can be no peace without first a purging of evil which requires conflict.

Consider the words of David in Psalm 139:

"If only you would slay the wicked, O God! Away from me, you bloodthirsty men! They speak of you with evil intent; your adversaries misuse your name. Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD, and abhor those who rise up against you? I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies. Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting."

The peace that we are promised as believers is an inner peace in the midst of a violent world. We should always be at peace because we have the peace of God in our hearts. But being at peace in our hearts and minds does not mean that we can live peaceful lives. This sinful world simply does not allow that.

There is only one, true living God. He is the same God in the OT and the NT. I see no difference between the God who led Joshua & David and the God who walked this earth in the Person of Jesus Christ.

--

[ZiSunka]

therefore, hate is an integral part of true, godly Love

Well, then, I hate you a lot! :D (kidding)

How can it be possible to love someone by hating them??

[Flynmonkie]

Well, then, I hate you a lot! :D (kidding)

How can it be possible to love someone by hating them??
It's not.....I believe God Hates SIN not the sinner...not to mention as I noted earlier.....Hate is not listed as one of the attributes of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I wonder why that would be? ;)

[ZiSunka]

I think Christians spend so much time hating the sin that they forget to love the sinner!

[rural_preacher]

I think Christians spend so much time hating the sin that they forget to love the sinner!

On the contrary, the more one hates sin the more they will have a deep burden for the lost. When we have an accurate biblical understanding of sin, that drives us to genuinely hate sin and reach out in Love to those who are being held in bondage by sin.

The unbeliever is a prisoner of war and we have the only weapon that can free them...the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

-----

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness" (Romans 1:16-18).

--

[ZiSunka]

On the contrary, the more one hates sin the more they will have a deep burden for the lost. When we have an accurate biblical understanding of sin, that drives us to genuinely hate sin and reach out in Love to those who are being held in bondage by sin.

The unbeliever is a prisoner of war and we have the only weapon that can free them...the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

-----

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness" (Romans 1:16-18).

--

I think it's exactly the opposite. The more you love the sinner, the more you will have compassion on them despite their sin and the more you will love them because you can see that they are hopelessly trapped in their sin.

When one hates the sin, hate becomes such a powerful emotion that they can't move beyond it to love the sinner. The hatred for the sin and the hatred for the sinner become a single consuming passion. The guys who go around saying "hate the sin, love the sinner" are often the ones who hold up signs saying, "God hates ****" at funerals of gay men.

Hatred for sin is solely the domain of God because he can handle that emotion without becoming overwhelmed by it. God never never commanded us to hate. Hate comes naturally to us when someone does something we strongly disagree with. God's people don't hate. God's people love.

They will call us children of the true God because of our love. They will call us children of the devil if we hate. Even the unsaved are capable of intense hate. Love is the key to the hearts of sinners.

[rural_preacher]

Indeed they will know us by our Love. And our Love is different from the world's love because our Love is God's Love. And God's Love hates sin. This is not about emotion at all. I am not referring to the emotion of love or hate. I am speaking about that which goes beyond emotion...that which is the mind of Christ. Love is selfless action to the glory of God and the good of others. Hatred (of sin) is having a proper understanding of exactly what sin really is and standing against it with all the power of God (Ephesians 6:10-18).

I completely agree that we must not allow ourselves to be consumed by the human emotion of hate. That will surely drag us down into a pit out of which we cannot climb. You are right when you refer to those who hold up hateful signs and shoot abortion doctors, etc. They are wrong and they are not walking with God. They do not know the true Love of the Savior.

But a failure to put sin in its proper place and stand against it completely will ultimately lead one into the error of excusing someone's sin in order to "win" them to Christ. We must call sin what it is and be totally against it. Then we must reach out in Love to the lost and bring them in.

One will not come to the Savior unless they first realize they need a Savior. That will only happen when they come to understand what sin really is and repent of it (hate it) and turn to Jesus Christ in faith for salvation.

--

[ZiSunka]

Indeed they will know us by our Love. And our Love is different from the world's love because our Love is God's Love. And God's Love hates sin. This is not about emotion at all. I am not referring to the emotion of love or hate. I am speaking about that which goes beyond emotion...that which is the mind of Christ. Love is selfless action to the glory of God and the good of others. Hatred (of sin) is having a proper understanding of exactly what sin really is and standing against it with all the power of God (Ephesians 6:10-18).

I completely agree that we must not allow ourselves to be consumed by the human emotion of hate. That will surely drag us down into a pit out of which we cannot climb. You are right when you refer to those who hold up hateful signs and shoot abortion doctors, etc. They are wrong and they are not walking with God. They do not know the true Love of the Savior.

But a failure to put sin in its proper place and stand against it completely will ultimately lead one into the error of excusing someone's sin in order to "win" them to Christ. We must call sin what it is and be totally against it. Then we must reach out in Love to the lost and bring them in.

One will not come to the Savior unless they first realize they need a Savior. That will only happen when they come to understand what sin really is and repent of it (hate it) and turn to Jesus Christ in faith for salvation.

--

Do you have kids RP? When they do wrong, do you hate them for it? Do you hate what they do, or do you simply say, "They are little kids, they don't know they are doing wrong. Instead of hammering them for doing wrong, I'm going to show them love by helping them discover what's right and what's wrong. Then if they still do the same wrong again, I'm going to discipline them gently and lovingly. Then if they still do it, I'm going to discipline them more firmly until they get the understanding that they are doing wrong and must stop. In fact, I'm going to use their wrongdoing to show them the amazing grace of God." Or do you say, "You little buzzards! I hate what you just did. I love you, but I hate what you did! You are horrible for disobeying me, even though you might not have ever heard me tell you the rules! In fact, I hate your sin so much that I'm going to beat the heck out of you until you repent and come begging to God for grace and mercy!"

Clearly, the first would produce love and repentance, and the second would produce fear and hate.

It is not our place to hate the sin or the sinner. Jesus preached on the perils of hate much more than he ever preached on the evils of sin. Sin can be forgiven, but hate is a state of heart that is extremely difficult to reverse, and will land you in perdition.

[rural_preacher]

What you illustrated was a clear example of the human emotion of hate. That is the kind of hate which I agreed with you is not right. It is not that emotional response of which I speak when I use the word "hate" in reference to sin and godliness. I am speaking of our attitude toward sin...not our emotions toward sin or sinners. We must have a militant attitude toward sin which is in perfect harmony with our compassion toward the lost. As I stated before, if we do not have God's attitude toward sin we will fall for the error of excusing people's sin in an attempt to "win" them to Christ. Our job is to be witnesses of Jesus Christ and the fact that He died for our sins and rose again. We must declare the message that salvation is available to all who will repent of sin and have faith in Christ.

Yes, I have children and from the very beginnings of their lives I strove to teach them right from wrong according to the Word of God. I punished wrong and praised right. I have a wonderful, loving and very close relationship with each one to this day. They understand the horribleness of sin and the unspeakable joy of living in God's Grace. Their desire is to share the Gospel of Grace with others everywhere they go. They are true soldiers of the faith.


--

[ZiSunka]

What you illustrated was a clear example of the human emotion of hate. That is the kind of hate which I agreed with you is not right. It is not that emotional response of which I speak when I use the word "hate" in reference to sin and godliness. I am speaking of our attitude toward sin...not our emotions toward sin or sinners. We must have a militant attitude toward sin which is in perfect harmony with our compassion toward the lost. As I stated before, if we do not have God's attitude toward sin we will fall for the error of excusing people's sin in an attempt to "win" them to Christ. Our job is to be witnesses of Jesus Christ and the fact that He died for our sins and rose again. We must declare the message that salvation is available to all who will repent of sin and have faith in Christ.

Yes, I have children and from the very beginnings of their lives I strove to teach them right from wrong according to the Word of God. I punished wrong and praised right. I have a wonderful, loving and very close relationship with each one to this day. They understand the horribleness of sin and the unspeakable joy of living in God's Grace. Their desire is to share the Gospel of Grace with others everywhere they go. They are true soldiers of the faith.


--

I guess I am only capable of human emotions. I don't know how to hate without the nasty human side effects. Only God knows how to hate divinely.

To preach the message of the gospel is not just to preach hatred of sin or the repentence of sin, it is to preach the good news of grace and mercy. God's love is the most amazing love at all, because he LOVED us when he had every right to hate us--while we were still sinners. Yet somehow he found love for us. If he had merely hated our sin, he could have never loved us enough to die for us, he would have only seen us as slithering worms unworthy of any sign of love from him. Instead, he looked deep into and saw that we really didn't know how to keep his commandments, that we didn't even understand what his commandments are, that we had no possibility of living sinlessly, so he came into our world in the form of a human and lived sinlessly as only God could, and then died for us, not despite our sin, but because of it.

When you look into a sinner's eyes, you are looking into your own eyes. You are that sinner, but for the grace of God, you are saved from the eternal consequences of that sin. The only thing separating you from that sinner is Jesus. And if you, with love not hate, tell that sinner about Christ, then there won't even be that separation.

Let me tell you about a gay man I know. All his adult life he had been told, sometimes screamed at, that he is a sinner. He is not unaware that he is a sinner. You know what no Christian ever told him before--that God loves him and came to earth to die to pay for HIS own sin, every sin and that God died so they could have a relationship together. Not one Christian ever told him that Christ didn't come into the world to condemn him, but that he should, through faith, have eternal life. Not one Christian ever got to know him as a person, to everyone of them he was merely defined by his sin. Not one ever did anything kind or loving for him, because they said they loved him and hated his sin, but they, through their words and actions, showed they hated him as well as his sin. I was the first Christian he ever met that didn't condemn him, but introduce him to the idea that God died even for homosexuals. That man now goes to church, and maybe someday he will get saved, that would never happen if all the Christians he ever met only told him about God's wrath and never demonstrated God's love and grace to him.

So, go, hate! Identify with God's wrath and not his grace and mercy. But whatever you give out will come back to you and by whatever measure you judge, you will also be judged by God.

If you must hate sin, start with your own sin and get all the logs out of your own eyes before you start to obsess with the specks in the eyes of the sinners. When you have finally dealt with all of them, you will be free because you will finally fully understand the insane depths of God's capacity to forgive. Then you will find there is no more room in your heart to hate. All your heart will be filled with love.

[rural_preacher]

I guess I am only capable of human emotions. I don't know how to hate without the nasty human side effects. Only God knows how to hate divinely.

To preach the message of the gospel is not just to preach hatred of sin or the repentence of sin, it is to preach the good news of grace and mercy. God's love is the most amazing love at all, because he LOVED us when he had every right to hate us--while we were still sinners. Yet somehow he found love for us. If he had merely hated our sin, he could have never loved us enough to die for us, he would have only seen us as slithering worms unworthy of any sign of love from him. Instead, he looked deep into and saw that we really didn't know how to keep his commandments, that we didn't even understand what his commandments are, that we had no possibility of living sinlessly, so he came into our world in the form of a human and lived sinlessly as only God could, and then died for us, not despite our sin, but because of it.

When you look into a sinner's eyes, you are looking into your own eyes. You are that sinner, but for the grace of God, you are saved from the eternal consequences of that sin. The only thing separating you from that sinner is Jesus. And if you, with love not hate, tell that sinner about Christ, then there won't even be that separation.

Let me tell you about a gay man I know. All his adult life he had been told, sometimes screamed at, that he is a sinner. He is not unaware that he is a sinner. You know what no Christian ever told him before--that God loves him and came to earth to die to pay for HIS own sin, every sin and that God died so they could have a relationship together. Not one Christian ever told him that Christ didn't come into the world to condemn him, but that he should, through faith, have eternal life. Not one Christian ever got to know him as a person, to everyone of them he was merely defined by his sin. Not one ever did anything kind or loving for him, because they said they loved him and hated his sin, but they, through their words and actions, showed they hated him as well as his sin. I was the first Christian he ever met that didn't condemn him, but introduce him to the idea that God died even for homosexuals. That man now goes to church, and maybe someday he will get saved, that would never happen if all the Christians he ever met only told him about God's wrath and never demonstrated God's love and grace to him.

So, go, hate! Identify with God's wrath and not his grace and mercy. But whatever you give out will come back to you and by whatever measure you judge, you will also be judged by God.

If you must hate sin, start with your own sin and get all the logs out of your own eyes before you start to obsess with the specks in the eyes of the sinners. When you have finally dealt with all of them, you will be free because you will finally fully understand the insane depths of God's capacity to forgive. Then you will find there is no more room in your heart to hate. All your heart will be filled with love.

I think you have more of the attitude toward sin that I have been talking about than you realize. It is exactly that realization of our own sin that makes the Grace and Mercy of God so much more precious! The more we realize that we are helpless sinners the more amazing God's Love for us is.

It is our militant attitude toward sin (beginning with our own) that drives us to proclaim the Gospel of God's Grace to lost and dying people.

Those that lashed out at that man were acting in their own fleshly emotions. You acted in the power of God according to His Grace. But your message is that Christ died for sinners. The reality of sin is still present in your message. God's Grace is necessary because of sin.

We reach out with Love to the unbeliever because we know that they need the Savior. They are lost in sin just as we were and we know the joy of being released from that sin by God's Grace. It is because of our stand against sin that we throw out the lifeline of Love to sinners.

--

[abbygirlforever]

True peace comes from within us through Jesus Christ. Peacemakers are those who have that inner peace that overflows from them into others; they don't worry, they aren't anxious, they aren't frantic. They are like calm streams of water through a dry, parched desert.

Sheep will not drink water that is rushing, crashing, heaving, etc. They will only drink from still, calm water. Unbelievers cannot see Christ in us if they do not see peace within us. They crave that freedom from fear, worry, anxiety, etc. That doesn't mean a Christian can't go to war, but it does mean that an effective Christian has to have that "peace that passes all understanding" - a peace so strong, that even in the worst of times the believer does not lose hope, does not lose faith, but stays strong and believes the promises of God.

When the soul is calm and not distracted by worldy worries, God speaks in marvelous ways.

[ZiSunka]

True peace is more than an inner feeling. If peace were something totally internal, why would Jesus talk so much about us being peacemakers, non-violent, non-resistent to violent people, not retaliating when someone is violent with us, even going so far as to LOVE our enemies.

Peace isn't just an inner feeling or emotion, it is something we are to pursue in our lives, to make real in the world around us. It is the substance of not being all involved in trying to prove something to anyone, it is not found in the absence of war or in the clutching of an emotion, it is a determination to not be the slaves of anger, fear and selfish passions. And when we can do that, we can live and peace and be peacemakers. :)

[abbygirlforever]

Some people seek "peace" so much that they forsake their friends and those in need when the murders and thieves come among them. They say, "Oh, we can't help you, we aren't to do harm to anybody, ever!" And by doing that, they bring harm to a thousand more by allowing evil to run amok.

I certainly don't advocate personal vengeance - that belongs to God. Christ said that we are not to resist those who persecute us for our faith. He didn't say anything about refusing to defend your family or your country in a time of war.

[ZiSunka]

Some people seek "peace" so much that they forsake their friends and those in need when the murders and thieves come among them. They say, "Oh, we can't help you, we aren't to do harm to anybody, ever!" And by doing that, they bring harm to a thousand more by allowing evil to run amok.

I certainly don't advocate personal vengeance - that belongs to God. Christ said that we are not to resist those who persecute us for our faith. He didn't say anything about refusing to defend your family or your country in a time of war.

Passivity and pacifism are two different things and you should look up both words so you can know the difference.

[abbygirlforever]

Passivity and pacifism are two different things and you should look up both words so you can know the difference.

I do know the difference, tyvm. The two do often intertwine, though.

[ZiSunka]

I do know the difference, tyvm. The two do often intertwine, though.

Oh? Like when?

[abbygirlforever]

A lot of times (but by all means not always), a person who follows one follows the other. A person against war might also choose not to resist when attacked, for example. I'm speaking in generalities, of course.

[ZiSunka]

A person against war might also choose not to resist when attacked, for example. I'm speaking in generalities, of course.

Neither of those is passivity. A person who is opposed to war hates violence and is following Jesus's commandments to turn the other cheek and to love their enemies. It takes a lot more courage to NOT retalliate with violence than it does to attack your attacker. Even animals will attack their attacker. But Jesus, who had every right to strike down all who opposed him or hurt him, did nothing but show them love. Shouldn't we be like Jesus?

[abbygirlforever]

Look, lambslove, I've gotten into this arguement before, and I'm not going to do it again. I'm tired of banging my head against that wall.

[ZiSunka]

Look, lambslove, I've gotten into this arguement before, and I'm not going to do it again. I'm tired of banging my head against that wall.

No one is arguing. Just do what Jesus did and you can't go wrong! :)

[abbygirlforever]

Debating, then.

[ZiSunka]

Debating, then.

Can't debate with Jesus's own teachings and life can you? ;)

[abbygirlforever]

Suit yourself.

[ZiSunka]

Don't suit me, suit Jesus! :)

[abbygirlforever]

I'm a work in progress, LL, just a work in progress.

[ZiSunka]

I'm a work in progress, LL, just a work in progress.

We all are abby, and that's all that is expected of us.

[McDLT]

The point of this thread is to discuss your opinions and to debate a little.

Personally, I will not fight in a war. I'm not passive nor a pacifist, but a peacemaker. A peacemaker is someone who actively seeks and promotes peace. Jesus even blessed the peacemakers. I think it may come down to you reap what you sow.

Just some more thoughts to throw into the mix.

[TwinCrier]

Ecclesiastes 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

[McDLT]

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. ~ Romans 12:17-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=17&end_verse=19&version=31&context=context)

[eldermike]

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. ~ Romans 12:17-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=17&end_verse=19&version=31&context=context)


This is true even for someone in uniform and in a war zone. Also, I don't recall a war of wrath or one to avenge anything, which wars did I miss?

[ZiSunka]

The point of this thread is to discuss your opinions and to debate a little.

Personally, I will not fight in a war. I'm not passive nor a pacifist, but a peacemaker. A peacemaker is someone who actively seeks and promotes peace. Jesus even blessed the peacemakers. I think it may come down to you reap what you sow.

Just some more thoughts to throw into the mix.

The word "pacifist" literally means "peacemaker."

[ZiSunka]

This is true even for someone in uniform and in a war zone. Also, I don't recall a war of wrath or one to avenge anything, which wars did I miss?

Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord. I will repay.

Wouldn't you call the war in Afghanistan and Iraq wars of vengence since they were meant to "repay" the 9-11 attackers for the evil they did?

[TwinCrier]

The word "pacifist" literally means "peacemaker."
No it doesn't.
pacifist adj : opposed to war [syn: pacifist(a) (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pacifist%28a%29), pacifistic (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pacifistic), dovish (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=dovish)] n : someone opposed to violence as a means of settling disputes [syn: pacificist (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pacificist), disarmer (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=disarmer)]
You cannot inflict peace on others, you can on ly find your own personal peace. As the saying goes, don't bring a knife to a gunfight, though most pacifists would rather just 7gcet killed than defend themselves. A pacifier is something a baby sucks on, not a way to peace.

Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord. I will repay.

Wouldn't you call the war in Afghanistan and Iraq wars of vengence since they were meant to "repay" the 9-11 attackers for the evil they did?It isn't vengence to seek to imprison those who do evil. When we arrest a rapist it isn't for revenge but to protect society. No one is out to "repay" for 9-11, we are seeking to free those oppressed by terrorist regimes and thus eliminate the violence these oppressors bring.

[ZiSunka]

It isn't vengence to seek to imprison those who do evil. When we arrest a rapist it isn't for revenge but to protect society. No one is out to "repay" for 9-11, we are seeking to free those oppressed by terrorist regimes and thus eliminate the violence these oppressors bring.

My mistake. I didn't know war was about imprisoning people, I thought it was about killing and destroying. Also, what terrorists have we imprisoned? Most of the "terrorist" that were taken to Gitmo have been released. Most of those in Abu Ghraib have been released. Where are the trials taking place? So far, after three and a half years, not one Gitmo detainee has had a trial.

What right did God give us, or international law for that matter, to overthrow any government that we don't like or that oppresses people. Didn't God say that all governments are under his control and working for His purposes?

[TwinCrier]

My mistake. I didn't know war was about imprisoning people, I thought it was about killing and destroying.I figured as much. Pacifists usually fail to see anything else when it comes to combat. Probably holding those huge protest signs too close to their face.



Also, what terrorists have we imprisoned? Most of the "terrorist" that were taken to Gitmo have been released. Most of those in Abu Ghraib have been released. Where are the trials taking place? So far, after three and a half years, not one Gitmo detainee has had a trial.
What is your source for this information? Very few prisoners have been released. There have been plenty of hearings, court proceeding and tribunals and many are serving sentences right now.


What right did God give us, or international law for that matter, to overthrow any government that we don't like or that oppresses people. Didn't God say that all governments are under his control and working for His purposes?Right, including those who wage war. If the governments who do evil are under God's control, how can you deny that the Godly nations aren't as well? The verse you are referring to in Romans 13 labels those such as yourself who oppose the God ordained authority will incur judgement and only those who do wrong have need to fear. I think fear is the true motivation behind pacifism.
Deuteronomy 20:8 And the officers shall speak further unto the people, and they shall say, What man is there that is fearful and fainthearted? let him go and return unto his house, lest his brethren's heart faint as well as his heart.

[eldermike]

Wouldn't you call the war in Afghanistan and Iraq wars of vengence since they were meant to "repay" the 9-11 attackers for the evil they did?

If we wanted to repay them we would not risk our good men trying to save the lives of those that are not on the side of the nut case flat worlders that believe we are the great satan. We could "repay" from the comfort of a command and control center.

[McDLT]

Some who tries to bring peace is a combination of a peacemaker, reconciler, pacifier (not just for babies ;)), and conciliator. Peacemaker does not equal pacifist; it's part of who we are but not the only part. Peacemakers are actively building bridges, settling disputes, and re-establishing relationships without violence.

[ZiSunka]

I figured as much. Pacifists usually fail to see anything else when it comes to combat. Probably holding those huge protest signs too close to their face.

I hope you are kidding.


What is your source for this information? Very few prisoners have been released. There have been plenty of hearings, court proceeding and tribunals and many are serving sentences right now.

CNN, the New York Times, ABC new, CBS news. That's where I'm getting my info from. Gitmo is almost empty. In what universe have these tribunals been taking place? It isn't this one.


Right, including those who wage war. If the governments who do evil are under God's control, how can you deny that the Godly nations aren't as well? The verse you are referring to in Romans 13 labels those such as yourself who oppose the God ordained authority will incur judgement and only those who do wrong have need to fear. I think fear is the true motivation behind pacifism.


Deuteronomy 20:8 And the officers shall speak further unto the people, and they shall say, What man is there that is fearful and fainthearted? let him go and return unto his house, lest his brethren's heart faint as well as his heart.

So if I am condemned because I don't support my God-ordained government's war, and you are condemned because you are opposed to the God-ordained government of Iraq (Saddam Hussein, remember him? He was the God-ordained government before Bush started this war) then we are both cooked!

[ZiSunka]

If we wanted to repay them we would not risk our good men trying to save the lives of those that are not on the side of the nut case flat worlders that believe we are the great satan. We could "repay" from the comfort of a command and control center.

Or you could follow the teachings of Christ and lay down your life to love your enemies. :)

[ZiSunka]

Some who tries to bring peace is a combination of a peacemaker, reconciler, pacifier (not just for babies ;)), and conciliator. Peacemaker does not equal pacifist; it's part of who we are but not the only part. Peacemakers are actively building bridges, settling disputes, and re-establishing relationships without violence.

Would you please look up the word "pacifist" already? It comes from the Latin, pax- which means "peace," and facere- which means "to make."

[SonOfThunder]

What about violence and wars? How do you be a peacemaker in that environment? Would you join the military?

The religion I was raised in taught it was wrong to go into any war and today still I agree with that. I personally could not kill, nor fight what today seems to political wars or money based wars. I also feel I could not face a brother of sister (Christian) if they were on the 'other' side and war against them in particular.

I would go to jail rather than join any Army.

James

[TwinCrier]

Would you please look up the word "pacifist" already? It comes from the Latin, pax- which means "peace," and facere- which means "to make."No actually it comes from the French passif, from Latin passvus meaning"subject to emotion." :P

[McDLT]

Would you please look up the word "pacifist" already? It comes from the Latin, pax- which means "peace," and facere- which means "to make."

I have looked it up. I belong to a peacemaking denomination. TwinCrier is correct. It is French. From the French word pacific - French pacifique, from Old French pacifice, from Latin phttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gifcificus : phttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gifx, phttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gifc-, peace; see pag- in Indo-European Roots + -ficus, -fic.

pacific



Tending to diminish or put an end to conflict; appeasing.
Of a peaceful nature; tranquil.
pacific adjective
1: promoting peace; 3: disposed to peace or of a peaceful nature; "the pacific temper seeks to settle disputes on grounds of justice rather than by force"; "a quiet and peaceable person"; "in a peaceable and orderly manner" [syn: peaceable]

Thanks to dictionary.com (I would hate to have to type it all out ;)). I took out the references to the Pacific Ocean.

Hope this helps.

[FaithWeaver]

I'm curious as to what others think.

How can we show Christ's peace and be peacemakers actively seeking peace in this day and age?
One of the fruits of the spirit is peace. If we have the Holy Spirit, then we have the peace that passes all understanding. We can show Christ's peace by being humble and by not stressing over everything. When we worry, we pray and leave it in God's hands. God will give Christians the peace that we so desperately desire. When my mother-in-law died in a tragic car accident, it was a very hard and stressful trial. Somehow, my husband and I had that perfect peace that God gives. That peace was spead to other members of the family. Having faith and knowing that God is in control is a great way of obtaining peace.

[rural_preacher]

Would you please look up the word "pacifist" already? It comes from the Latin, pax- which means "peace," and facere- which means "to make."

I looked up the word "peacemaker" and this is the definition I found:

GAM-63 missile powered by a Bell-designed liquid-fueled rocket engine made up of three vertical in-line thrust chambers and developing a thrust of 4000 pounds.



Launch weight – 13,000 pounds

Length – 31 feet

Diameter – 4 feet

Top Speed – Mach 2.95

Payload – 3,000 pound nuclear warhead

Range – 100 miles

Funny how words don't always mean what we think they mean.


--

[Lockheed]

Does God hate anyone?

[rural_preacher]

Does God hate anyone?

Psalm 5:4-8

"You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong. You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors. But I, by your great mercy, will come into your house; in reverence will I bow down toward your holy temple. Lead me, O LORD, in your righteousness because of my enemies—make straight your way before me."



--

[rural_preacher]

One of the fruits of the spirit is peace. If we have the Holy Spirit, then we have the peace that passes all understanding. We can show Christ's peace by being humble and by not stressing over everything. When we worry, we pray and leave it in God's hands. God will give Christians the peace that we so desperately desire. When my mother-in-law died in a tragic car accident, it was a very hard and stressful trial. Somehow, my husband and I had that perfect peace that God gives. That peace was spead to other members of the family. Having faith and knowing that God is in control is a great way of obtaining peace.

Amen!!

This is the true peace that lives in the heart of every believer...even in the midst of a world without peace!


--

[McDLT]

I looked up the word "peacemaker" and this is the definition I found:

GAM-63 missile powered by a Bell-designed liquid-fueled rocket engine made up of three vertical in-line thrust chambers and developing a thrust of 4000 pounds.



Launch weight – 13,000 pounds

Length – 31 feet

Diameter – 4 feet

Top Speed – Mach 2.95

Payload – 3,000 pound nuclear warhead

Range – 100 miles

Funny how words don't always mean what we think they mean.


--

LOL - I saw that one too. :P

Although that is not the first definition of peacemaker. They figure that when this baby goes off there will be no one left, thus peace. I don't think eliminating the oppostition is much of a Christian response. ;)

[TwinCrier]

Does God hate anyone?
Psalm 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

[JPPT1974]

The reason God doesn't hate anybody?? He is an all-loving and an all-powerful God and that He never, ever will let us down. And that He makes and keeps His promises when we nor everybody in this world doesn't.

[Lockheed]

The reason God doesn't hate anybody?? He is an all-loving and an all-powerful God and that He never, ever will let us down. And that He makes and keeps His promises when we nor everybody in this world doesn't.

JPP, did you not read the last few posts? Apparently Psa 5:5 states that God does hate the wicked... what do you say about Psa 5:5?