Help in understanding Rev 13: 9-15

[newbeliever02072005]

Hello Everyone,

I was wondering what everyone thought about this. I went to my bible study this evening. Which is about the book of Revelation. Tonight was about chapter 13 vs 9-15.

Now, I might sound like I'm rambling or not sure what I am talking about, that is where I was hoping people could see my holes and fill in the gaps for me.



Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear

I was told that these verses are during the tribulation period. So, what this verse is saying is that all men should listen up and start believing in Christ, cause this is your last chance for salvation.



Rev 13: 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The first part of this "he that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity"...are these the saints that are here on earth during the tribulation period? They are being held in "captivity on earth" until Christ comes at the end of the tribulation period? The second part of that verse "he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword." Is this the "eye for an eye" thing that is talked about in the bible. If you are going to go out and kill violently then you will be killed violently also? (please remember I am so very new to this, so I am not sure of where bible verses are exactly. I pray you all can be patient with me :crossrc: )



Rev 13: 11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

"And beheld another beast".....this is the false prophet? This is when he proves to the "world" that he is the messiah rising from the dead? (ref. Matthew 24:24) The rest of the scripture goes on to give us an idea or an image of what the anti-christ might look like? "and he spake as a dragon." The dragon is representative of Satan, correct?



Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

"and he" The false prophet will have special powers only in the prescence of the beast. Is this Satan? This is where I get confused I suppose. Dragon or beast, which is representative of Satan? Satan is not omnipresent so that would mean that this false prophet only has powers bestowed on him from Satan when Satan is present with the false prophet. Satan is going to give this false prophet the ability to heal the deadly wound so that it gives "credibility" to his claim of being the messiah. Right?



Rev 13:13 And he doesth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Another sign that will cause people to believe and follow this anti-christ or false prophet?



Rev 13: 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

The people that will be following this messiah will be looking up to an image , which would be considered in God's eyes a false god or an idol, that he has created as a symbol to worship of him. I think in the commandments it says that we are not to worship an image or an idol of any kind. If this messiah that creates this image is for real, then he is then breaking a commandment from God. This could be a very good indicator to men that this false prophet is definately false. Wouldn't you agree?



Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

If God is the only one that can GIVE LIFE ....then how is Satan going to give life to this anti-christ or false prophet? Any ideas on how he might pull this trick off?




Hope I didn't make a total mess out of this. Just wondering if I am getting anything out of this bible study I'm attending or not. If I'm not, I think I might hang this study up and try and find a "Bible Basics 101" class :D


Oh, one more question, if you all don't mind. When God takes his people during the rapture. God will be taking all children that is not of accountabilty. Then begins the tribulation period. Do you all think that God will "breathe" life into more babies during the tribulation period? If so, those children at the end of the tribulation period would be all under the age of 7 years old. All those children will be taken up with the saints that were left here on earth? Cause the bible just talks (atleast what I've read so far) that only the saints (which are martyrs) will be taken, nothing about children being taken.

Ok, Im done......THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME WITH THIS!!!!

God Bless!
newbeliever :)

[Matthan]

Newbeliever, you would start with some of the most difficult verses in all of Scripture! Anyway, I'll give it a shot (me and my trusty Liberty Commentary, that is).

Verses 9 & 10 : Here we are cautioned that, in these days, we are to use patience over violence. We will be hard pressed by the agents and followers of the beast, and we must preservere as Christians, even to martyrdom if need be. We must exhibit our sole faith in God to all others.

Verse 11: (Earlier, the "first" beast came out of the sea, which probably makes him a Gentile. In this verse, the second beast comes comes out of the land, which generally denotes a Jew. And, in this case, we can expect him to be an apostate Jew, mainly because he will pose as the Messiah and they (the Jews) will not be fooled by a non-Jew. Eventually this guy will claim to be God Himself. Since deceit and falsehood are his forte, he will find such claims easy to make. And about "he spake as a dragon", this guy will attempt to speak like Christ in meekness and humility. However, his speech will betray him to all who believe in Christ.

Verse 12: Satan, the first beast, still rules. This second beast, the anti-christ, will get his followers to worship the first beast.

Verse 13: Here is how he will fool many people. He will do great things that people will believe are from (could only be done by) God. God gives Satan this power, as Paul tells us clearly. God wants those who do not believe in Him to be fooled completely. If they do not have faith in Him, then why should He care in any way about them?

Verses 14 & 15: More on the special powers of Satan and the anti-christ. They will create an image of the first beast, and actually give it a form of "life." It will fool all those individuals who do not know God intimately. That is what God wants, believe it or not!

Now, about your question concerning infants and small children. During the trib they will have a hard time of it. Jesus actually told us this would be true with, "For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us." Luke 23:29-30

But do not have fear for them. Small innocent children hold a special place in God's heart. Their angels do daily look upon his face. (See Matthew 18:10)

I hope this has helped you in some way. May God bless you....

Matthan <J><

[SonOfThunder]

wow! well done Matthan, I had a too hard basket for this topic myself.



Newbeliever, it's great you have the questions, some will go over your head. Let it, eventually it will all knit together as you study.

James

[PapaLandShark]

You might also, for quick reference, try here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

Find a verse and select the blue "L" to the left. Use the drop down menu arrow to select a commentary such as:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1114063673-7086.html

Hope this helps!

[Simon_Templar]

Matthan's explanation was pretty good, but there are a couple of comments I'd make.

First is to clarify that there are actually two people in the end time scenario, which people often lump together under the term "anti-christ". In revelation they are described as the first beast and the second beast, or the beast and the false prophet.

The first beast rises out of the seas, matthan is correct that this signifies the gentile peoples. The reason for this is that through out scriptures, the "nations" or the gentiles are refered to as " many waters" etc. So the first beast will be a gentile. Also his description is almost identical to descriptions given in daniel which tie him to rome (more on this in a sec). This first beast starts out as a political and military power.

The second beast comes out of the land and again Matthan is correct, "THE land" is Israel throughout scripture. Thus this signifies that he is an Israelite. This beast appears to have mostly religious traits in revelations. However, it is not true that he sets himself up as God exactly.. the statue that he sets up is the image of the first beast, not of himself... so he causes people to worship the first beast as God.

In daniel we find these two men represented also. The first beast, in daniel, is represented as the Prince of chapter 9 who comes out of the people who destroy the temple (rome) He makes a treaty with Israel, but half way through breaks the treaty and causes the abomination of desolation. The abomination of desolation is prophecied twice in daniel, the first fulfillment of it was when Antiochus Epiphanes set up an image of Zues in the temple (which lead to the macabean revolt). The second instance prophecied is caused by the Roman Prince (which inidcates that he will have his image set in the temple).

The second beast in revelation, the false prophet, is fortold in daniel chapter 11 as the "willful king" beginning in verse 36. This willful king is linked to Israel (the glorious land) and it is said that holds not the desire of women. This is not a refrence to him being gay, but rather the jewish idiom was that the desire of women was to bear the messiah. So he cares nothing for the messiah, and he does not honor the God of his fathers (both again suggesting that he is jewish). He exalts himself above every god, EXCEPT that he honors a god of forces. With this god of forces he is able to over throw the strongest fortresses, and he in turn gives glory to this god in the form of adoration and wealth.

So the situation presented is that a mighty political military ruler comes out of Rome (some part there of) who allies himself with a ruler of Israel. With the military backing of the prince of rome, the ruler of Israel accomplishes everything that the israelites want... but this ruler is not a traditional religious man, and in the end he exalts the prince who empowered him, and eventually sets up an image of the prince in the temple and glorifies him by causing people to worship the image. The Israeli ruler will style himself as a messiah, an annointed ruler who points people not to himself, but to the god behind him, who is the prince.

[newbeliever02072005]

Newbeliever, you would start with some of the most difficult verses in all of Scripture! Anyway, I'll give it a shot (me and my trusty Liberty Commentary, that is).[QUOTE]

I know, I must be crazy:D


Verses 9 & 10 : Here we are cautioned that, in these days, we are to use patience over violence. We will be hard pressed by the agents and followers of the beast, and we must preservere as Christians, even to martyrdom if need be. We must exhibit our sole faith in God to all others.[QUOTE]

I don't think it will be hard for the saints to do this, would you agree?


Verse 11: (Earlier, the "first" beast came out of the sea, which probably makes him a Gentile. In this verse, the second beast comes comes out of the land, which generally denotes a Jew. And, in this case, we can expect him to be an apostate Jew, mainly because he will pose as the Messiah and they (the Jews) will not be fooled by a non-Jew. Eventually this guy will claim to be God Himself. Since deceit and falsehood are his forte, he will find such claims easy to make. And about "he spake as a dragon", this guy will attempt to speak like Christ in meekness and humility. However, his speech will betray him to all who believe in Christ.[QUOTE]

How do you know that sea is representative of a Gentile and that land is representative of a Jew?

Verse 12: Satan, the first beast, still rules. This second beast, the anti-christ, will get his followers to worship the first beast. [QUOTE]

Ok, I think I am starting to see an Unholy trinity here. Satan(Unholy Father), Anti-Christ (Unholy Son)........yes, no???




dumb question here...Paul is the author of Revelation? If so, how did the contents of this book come to Paul.....in a dream?

Why would God want the non-believers to be fooled? Isn't God wanting ALL souls to be with Him in heaven? I would think that God wouldn't want this yet or during this period of time yet. Cause isn't this still during the tribulation period. So, there is still time for non-believers to convert, right? When does God finally say enough is enough and ends it all?

Verses 14 & 15: More on the special powers of Satan and the anti-christ. They will create an image of the first beast, and actually give it a form of "life." It will fool all those individuals who do not know God intimately. That is what God wants, believe it or not![QUOTE]

How do you think Satan can give life, when God is the only one that can do that? I have one thought. There is technology out there now for cloning. They have performed it with animals. The next step is going to be a human. I honestly can't see a human clone has a God breathed spirit. Could this be a way that Satan can give the appearance of life? Fooling many people.



Now, about your question concerning infants and small children. During the trib they will have a hard time of it. Jesus actually told us this would be true with, Luke 23:29-30

But do not have fear for them. Small innocent children hold a special place in God's heart. Their angels do daily look upon his face. (See Matthew 18:10)[QUOTE]

According to Luke 23:29-30 then, no babies will be born during the tribulation period. Cause the "womb that never bare" would indicate no more births.

I hope this has helped you in some way. May God bless you....

Matthan <J><

Absolutely, thank you for taking the time to help me out here.

God Bless!
newbeliever :)

[newbeliever02072005]

You might also, for quick reference, try here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

Find a verse and select the blue "L" to the left. Use the drop down menu arrow to select a commentary such as:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1114063673-7086.html

Hope this helps!

Thank you - I looked at those sites. They look like they will be a big help for me :thumbsup: (Added them to my favorites list).


God Bless!
newbeliever :)

[newbeliever02072005]

Matthan's explanation was pretty good, but there are a couple of comments I'd make.

Sure !



First is to clarify that there are actually two people in the end time scenario, which people often lump together under the term "anti-christ". In revelation they are described as the first beast and the second beast, or the beast and the false prophet.

The first beast rises out of the seas, matthan is correct that this signifies the gentile peoples. The reason for this is that through out scriptures, the "nations" or the gentiles are refered to as " many waters" etc. So the first beast will be a gentile.


Also his description is almost identical to descriptions given in daniel which tie him to rome (more on this in a sec). This first beast starts out as a political and military power.

Ok...sea = gentile= 1st beast, which =s Anti-christ?


The second beast comes out of the land and again Matthan is correct, "THE land" is Israel throughout scripture. Thus this signifies that he is an Israelite. This beast appears to have mostly religious traits in revelations. However, it is not true that he sets himself up as God exactly.. the statue that he sets up is the image of the first beast, not of himself... so he causes people to worship the first beast as God.

land=Jew=2nd beast, which =s False Prophet?

In daniel we find these two men represented also. The first beast, in daniel, is represented as the Prince of chapter 9 who comes out of the people who destroy the temple (rome) He makes a treaty with Israel, but half way through breaks the treaty and causes the abomination of desolation. The abomination of desolation is prophecied twice in daniel, the first fulfillment of it was when Antiochus Epiphanes set up an image of Zues in the temple (which lead to the macabean revolt). The second instance prophecied is caused by the Roman Prince (which inidcates that he will have his image set in the temple).

Ok, Im going to seminary school to learn all of this!!!! Maybe I can fit it in between diaper changings and preparing dinner, or wait I might have time after doing the piles of laundry for a 5 person household :eek: ...j/k

Soooo, this Macabean revolt has already happen (do I need a history lesson too?:scratch: ).? Now we are waiting for the 2nd abomination of desolation to happen? You mention "Roman Prince"...could this be interpted to be maybe a Roman Catholic person? (I hope I don't offend anyone with that question, sorry if I have)





The second beast in revelation, the false prophet, is fortold in daniel chapter 11 as the "willful king" beginning in verse 36. This willful king is linked to Israel (the glorious land) and it is said that holds not the desire of women. This is not a refrence to him being gay, but rather the jewish idiom was that the desire of women was to bear the messiah. So he cares nothing for the messiah, and he does not honor the God of his fathers (both again suggesting that he is jewish). He exalts himself above every god, EXCEPT that he honors a god of forces. With this god of forces he is able to over throw the strongest fortresses, and he in turn gives glory to this god in the form of adoration and wealth.

So the situation presented is that a mighty political military ruler comes out of Rome (some part there of) who allies himself with a ruler of Israel. With the military backing of the prince of rome, the ruler of Israel accomplishes everything that the israelites want... but this ruler is not a traditional religious man, and in the end he exalts the prince who empowered him, and eventually sets up an image of the prince in the temple and glorifies him by causing people to worship the image. The Israeli ruler will style himself as a messiah, an annointed ruler who points people not to himself, but to the god behind him, who is the prince.

My head is spinning :o. To sum it up,

A Gentile Anti-christ is going to align himself up with the Jewish false prophet. The Anti-christ is going to receive "special powers " from Satan to give the illussion that the false prophet is the messiah. The anti-christ is going to sing praises and glorify this false prophet by setting up an image of him in the holy temple. This is where he will start to build up satan's army against God?

Here is the completion of the Unholy Trinity.....

Unholy Father (Satan), Unholy Son (Anti-Christ), Unholy Spirit (False Prophet)


Advice needed:
1... Do I hang up the bible study on revelation,
2... Do I hang in there and try to grasp this,
3....Do I go to school for all of this or,
4....Do I just learn my patiences and depend on God to show me what HE WANTS me to know?

Hey I know, I'd say answer is 4 .......i catch on fast, huh? ^_^

Thank you again for your help, I sure do appreciate it

God Bless!
newbeliever

[Simon_Templar]

Hey, :)

Sorry if i confused you, I'll try to clarify.

in answer to your last question first.. you hang in there, read revelation, do some study on your own (consider what people have to say but don't take their word for it, even if they are an "expert" or a "bible scholar".) Take it as much at face value as possible.

Revelation is the only book in the bible which promises a blessing, just for reading the book, so stick with it. I also recomend comparing revelation with What Jesus says in matthew chapters 24&25 and daniel's chapters 9 and 11


I'll give you the summary of what I was trying to say

There will be a guy who become a political military power, probably in Europe. He is the first beast. He will make an alliance with an Israeli leader who will be a very charismatic figure who will probably have a new age humanist style religious bent, this is the second beast (or false prophet).
As part of this alliance the first guy from Europe (we'll call him the beast), will use his political power and military power to back the second guy from Israel (we'll call him the false prophet). With the military backing of the beast, the false prophet will rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, and he will plunder Israel's enemies.
In return for the military and political backing, the false prophet will glorify the beast and he will act as the prophet of the beast. When they reach the height of their power, the False Prophet will set up an image of the Beast in the temple, he will declare that the beast is God and will cause people to worship the beast as God.

This does indeed form the unholy trinity. you could make arguments for who is which part of the trinity, but this is my best guess on that

The false prophet is the son, he is the messianic figure, he is the annointed king of israel who directs the people to worship his god.

The beast is the father, he is the one who both directs the actions of the false prophet and also gives him backing. He is also the one who is worshiped as God.

Satan takes on the role of the Holy Spirit because he is the unsees power behind the two. He indwells both and he empowers them to do signs and wonders.

As for who is the antichrist.. the truth is either one of the figures could accurately be described as antichrist, so they are both antichrist.



this section is not necessary for the above, but its historical background to explain some things I mentioned in the first post but didn't explain clearly.

The 1st abomination of desolation..
The book of daniel fortells a number of things dealing with Alexander the Great and his immediate successors. When alexander the great died his empire was divided up among his top generals rather than going to his infant son (this was fortold be daniel).
One of the generals took control of egypt, his name was ptolemy. Another General took control of syria and babylon, his name was Selucus. (there were others but they aren't important to this story).
Daniel chapter 11 (up until verse 36) fortells a long series of wars which occured between Egypt and Syria. In chapter 11 syria is refered to as "the king of the north" and Egypt as "the king of the south". Their positions of course are given relative to Israel (which is refered to in the prophecy as the glorious land).

One of the kings who arose in Syria took the name Antiochus Epiphanes (which means Antiochus the glorious shinning one). Antiochus Epiphanes started meddling around in Israel and trying to pervert the poluace away from the true God. He started by introducing the olympic style games, and sporting events, which in ancient culture were actually religious events and required the participants to sacrifice to the patron gods of the event. The sports themselves in greek religion were seen as a sort of offering or worship to the gods. This began to pervert the younger generation of jews. The last straw came when Antiochus erected a statue of Zeus in the Holy of Holies in the temple in jerusalem, and sacrificed a pig on the alter to zeus.
As a response to the sons of the Jewish high priestly family lead a revolt which defeated the syrians and successfuly liberated Israel. The leader of the revolt was named but in the war he was given the nick name "the hammer" which in hebrew was Maccabeus, so he is most commonly known as Judas Maccabeus, and the revolt he lead is known as the Maccabean revolt. (this is also fortold in daniel chapter 11). this is when the famous events occured which are commemorated in the Jewish holiday of Hannukah (sp).
Another similar instance actually happened in 68 AD when Nero had a statue of Zeus with Nero's head put in the temple. It sparked another revolt which this time lead to the destruction of Jersualem by the romans in 70 AD.

Hopefully I didn't confuse you more. I tend to get into this stuff and then I just ramble :)

[Radagast]

Let me try:

9 He who has an ear, let him hear. 10 If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints
This is saying that God's plan will happen, even the uncomfortable bits. That applies not just to the end times, but also to the present.

11 Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. 12 He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. 14 Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
This is widely debated. I think it refers partly to persecution that happened to the Church in John's time, and partly to persecution today (in many countries today, the words "all who refused to worship the image to be killed" are fulfilled), and also partly to the end times.

16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
Again, I think this refers partly to persecution that happened to the Church in John's time, and partly to persecution today (in many countries today, the words "no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark" are fulfilled), and also partly to the end times.

18 This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.
Best guess on the 666 is that it refers to the Emperor Nero ("Nero Caesar" adds up to 666 in Hebrew letters), but Nero is a representative of all future persecutors of the Church.

Hope this helps,

-- Radagast

[Leimeng]

~ Of course, Rome does not have to be the city talked about in Revelations. There are other candidates. Geneva Switzerland for example. A city of seven hills/mountains; Headquarters of international banking; Headquarters of World Council of Churches. Deeply rooted in false religion (Calvin).
~ I say you should just read the book of Revelations and be blessed because that is what it says will happen.
~ Trust God, trust Jesus, trust the Holy Spirit.
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

(***Insert Personal One Liner Here***)

[Simon_Templar]

Well, revelation 17 pretty clearly identifies the city as rome in my opinion. My reasoning is this. chapter 17 has to be read as in context of John's time other wise the sequence of kings he mentions makes no sense. Then at the end of the chapter John says that the city is "the great city which rules over the earth" in john's time that could only be rome.

I don't think that necessarily means that babylon will be the roman catholic church. I actually think it is more likely that there will be a new religious organization (based on new age humanism) founded in rome by the UN and the EU.

[Radagast]

Well, revelation 17 pretty clearly identifies the city as rome in my opinion. My reasoning is this. chapter 17 has to be read as in context of John's time other wise the sequence of kings he mentions makes no sense. Then at the end of the chapter John says that the city is "the great city which rules over the earth" in john's time that could only be rome.
Indeed. But Revelation also suggests that spiritually, Rome and Jersulaem are the same city (see Rev 11:8). So the "great city" in the future could be anywhere -- but we would recognise it by its behaviour.

-- Radagast

[Simon_Templar]

Radagast,

Yes, and no :)

In the history of the world there are two cities, or kingdoms, whichever model you prefer. They both start right at the beginning, the good city begins with Abel and then Seth... God's chosen remnant. The city of God.
The other city begins with Cain, its the city of man (kingdom of this world etc etc).

through out history these two cities run. The city of man ever trying to obtain dominion and conquer the city of God. The city of God is not yet of this world, so those who are its citizens are wanderers, sojourners in this world. This is why when you look through out scripture, the city of man is always portrayed as settled society, empires etc, while the citizens of the city of God are always nomads, shepards, people who live outside settled society.

Babylon very early on became the first attmept of the city of man to implement its dominon over all mankind. Thus babylon has forever been used as symbolic of the city of man. Rome became the next great embodiement of this city and so is often used as a symbol for it as well.

The heart of the city of man is false religion, particularly humanistic religions, religions that elevate man to godhood.

The heart of the city of God of course is true religion.. God's chosen people, Israel, the church etc.

Both of these are represented in scripture as " a woman" the church of course is the bride of Christ, Israel was also represented as a woman.. and the false religion is also represented as a woman, the harlot.

In revelation 17 the last verse says,
"And the woman that you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth."

Now, this statement does allow for the great city in question to be taken in the symbolic sense as the city of man which is the false religions etc. However, it can also be taken in a literal sense that the woman (ie the false religions, the city of man) will rest on a real physical city which currently rules the kings of the earth. If that is the case it would be rome.
However, earlier in the chapter it says that the seven heads of the beast are seven hills on which the woman sits. This tends to indicate that the woman is not only representing the symbolic city but also a real physical city, which rests on seven hills. That leaves pretty much only two options, Rome and Jerusalem. Jerusalem has never yet ruled over the kings of the earth so it seems like rome is the best bet.

Your correct in pointing out that Jerusalem was likened to rome, and is also refered to in the bible as babylon. The reason for this is that although Jerusalem is God's chosen city, the israelites have through out history filled it up with wickedness and the blood of the prophets.. this is the work of the city of man, of babylon. So in the spiritual sense Jerusalem has been babylon and rome.

[Radagast]

.... The city of God. The other city begins with Cain, its the city of man (kingdom of this world etc etc).
I agree 100%

... it can also be taken in a literal sense that the woman (ie the false religions, the city of man) will rest on a real physical city which currently rules the kings of the earth. If that is the case it would be rome.
In John's time, the "other city" was centred in the "real physical city" of Rome. But in the future?

-- Radagast

[Simon_Templar]

well, it is possible that it could be another city, however, in my opinion, the message of revelation 17 is that the city it was in John's time, is the city it will be in the fulfillment of revelation as well.

Its obvious that all the things in the chapter such as the 7 kings, 5 have fallen, 1 is and 1 must come and remain for a short time, and "the woman is the great city..." those are all given in context of jonh's time. If they don't have a fixed refrence point (which can only be john's time) then they really don't have any meaning. However, in addition to the fact that they are given in refrence of John's time, the point of the passage is to reveal the mystery of babylon and the beast, as they will be at the end. Thus, in my opinion, the passage is essentially indicating that as the city literaly is rome in John's day, it will also be rome at the end.

this is also born up by other elements of prophecy, mostly from daniel, which strongly indicate that some form of the roman empire will produce the beast at the end.

[Simon_Templar]

So Radagast,

I've given you my view, more or less... whats yours?

PS. by your view I mean, what do you think or guess the meaning of the scripture in question is :)

[Radagast]

what do you think or guess the meaning of the scripture in question is :)
Apart from what I've said, I have no idea. It's a difficult book.

-- Radagast

[novcncy]

[QUOTE=Simon_Templar]Well, revelation 17 .....QUOTE]

Now we're getting somewhere. I once heard a preacher named Ron Comfort say that the best commentary on scripture, is scripture. That said, Revelation 17 seems to be a pretty clear explanation of Revelation 13. Read it in that context, and see what you think.

[novcncy]

[QUOTE=Simon_Templar]Both of these are represented in scripture as " a woman" the church of course is the bride of Christ, Israel was also represented as a woman.. and the false religion is also represented as a woman, the harlot.

In revelation 17 the last verse says,
"And the woman that you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth."

Now, this statement does allow for the great city in question to be taken in the symbolic sense as the city of man which is the false religions etc. However, it can also be taken in a literal sense that the woman (ie the false religions, the city of man) will rest on a real physical city which currently rules the kings of the earth. If that is the case it would be rome.
However, earlier in the chapter it says that the seven heads of the beast are seven hills on which the woman sits. This tends to indicate that the woman is not only representing the symbolic city but also a real physical city, which rests on seven hills. That leaves pretty much only two options, Rome and Jerusalem. Jerusalem has never yet ruled over the kings of the earth so it seems like rome is the best bet.
QUOTE]

If you look at the description of the woman in 17:1-7 you can get specific rather quickly. For instance, fornication with the kings (governments) of the earth, drunk with the blood of the saints (inquisition?), and her obvious wealth, all these point at only one place.

Also, Babylon is a symbol of compromise throughout the Bible. So a city advocating spiritual compromise could indeed be called spiritual Babylon.

[Simon_Templar]

Revelation 13 & 17 - my thoughts and opinions ;)


Alright... I guess I'll start by looking at each verse in question

starting with Revelation 13:10
"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. "

Alright.. this verse is a statement of God's justice and judgement. Everyone who leads into captivity.. Those who lead into captivity are people who decieve (and thus make captive) to false beliefs, and also in a more physical sense these are people who make God's people prisoners (ie put them in jail etc) because of their beliefs. All of these people will, themselves will go into captivity because that is God's just judgement on them. Likewise all those who kill with the sword, ie those who martyr God's people, will themselves be killed with the sword, again God's judgement of justice against those who persecute his people.
"here is the patience of the saints" This is a statement which looks back at the two previous statements and says basicly, we know that God's justice will come upon those who persecute us, this knowledge is the patience of the saints, that we wait in persecution for the Justice of God to save us.

13:11
"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. "

this beast comes up out of the land, signifying Israel. Thus he is an israeli. He has two horns like a lamb, the lamb of course is symbolic of Jesus/messiah and horns are usualy symbolic of power or authority. Thus this tends to suggest that he has authority which appears to be like that of Jesus or of the messiah. Remember that the thing which amazed the scribes and pharisees and the people in general about Jesus was he "spoke as one who had authority". His sermons on scripture his teachings had authority which even his enemies were astonished by.
"but he spake as a dragon". Of course the dragon is symbolic of Satan (and is used just one chapter before this). This person seems to speak with the authority of the messiah, yet what he says is straight from satan. His words are the words of the devil.

13:12
"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. "

This second beast has obvious power of his own (which seems to be a kind of religious authority), but yet in an interesting way, he exercises the power of the first beast... in some way this second beast is backed by and empowered by the first beast (see daniel and the king who does according to his will in chapter 11:36). As a result of the 1st beast allowing the 2nd beast to exercise his power.. the 2nd beast gives glory to the first beast and causes people to worship him.
To me this suggests that the 1st beast has temporal power (politics and military) while the 2nd beast has religious authority. The 1st beast becomes the muscle allowing the 2nd beast to do whatever he wants to do.. and in return the 2nd beast uses his religious authority to glorify and deify the 1st beast giving glory to him as god.

13:13
"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, "

This speaks of the miraculous and supernatural power/authority of the 2nd beast.

13:14
"And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

The 2nd beast by virtue of his supernatural power and miracles is able to decieve much of the world and causes them to place a statue of the first beast in the temple in Jerusalem. (the first beast is here, for the second time, referred to as having received a mortal wound (ie a death causing wound) and yet returning).

13:15
"And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

The 2nd beast is able through his sorcery to seemingly give a kind of life to the statue of the first beast which enables it to speak and to order people put to death when they don't worship it. This is very like the ancient practice under several roman emperors to test loyalty of citizens by having them sacrifice and worship his statue. Christians were often persecuted because they refused to show loyalty to the state by worshiping the emperor's statue.

13:16
"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: "

For some reason the 2nd beast causes everyone under his power to recieved a mark on their right hand or forhead.

13:17
"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. "

Here we see that the mark given appears to be economic in nature. No one is able to partake in commerce unless they have the mark.

13:18
"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six."

Many people have concluded that the mark of the beast is 666, however, thats not exactly what this says. It technicaly never says what the mark is. It says that this is the number of the beast and it is a number of a man. It is notable that 6 is the number of man. on the 6th day man was created. 6 is one less than 7 which is complete perfection. Man is in the image of God but is less than God's complete perfection. 3 of course is the number of the trinity.. so when you take 666 you have the number of man elevated to godhood.
It has been pointed out that nero caeser adds up to 666. However, there are two early church writers who state that, although there is no way of knowing for sure what the name of the beast will be (because there are many possible ways to come to 666) they both suggested that one very likely possability, in their view, would be the name Titan. These writers also commented that many people were using the wrong method of calculating name values, so one does need to be careful because there is a wrong way and a right way to calculate the name value. I don't know what the correct way is.

I'll break this post here and give my views on revelation 17 in another post

[Simon_Templar]

Ok.. on to revelation 17 this chapter is one of my personal favorites

17:1
"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: "

The angel comes to show John something new. Specificly he comes to show him the judgement of "babylon". The great whore that sits on many waters. "many waters" throughout the bible indicates the gentile nations.. the great ocean of peoples. So the whore rests upon the nations, all the peoples who are not God's people. Then there is the fact that she is the great whore... well talk about that in the next verse.

17:2
"With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. "

Again, one of the most common symbolisms in the bible is the use of marital relations to signify God's relationship with his people. Through out the bible both old and new testament, God's people are refered to as his bride. Likewise, the image of adultery and fornication is repeatedly used to signify when people worship other gods and go after false religions. This great whore is a false religious system which rests upon all the gentile nations, and has seduced the entire world with her false religions.
The image of the wine presented here is continued later as well, I'll comment on that when it comes up again.

17:3
"So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns."

the angel transports john in the spirit to see the woman sitting upon the beast. The beast is scarlet (which could indicate blood, or it could also be an indicator of royal power) The beast is covered with blasphemous names, perhaps this is refrence to the often blasphemous titles that have been taken by rulers down through the centuries as they have declared themselves to be gods etc. The beast has seven heads and ten horns. First notice that this description is nearly identical to those given earlier in revelation of the 1st beast of chapter 13 and in daniel as well. These things will be elaborated later on in the prophecy

17:4
"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: "

The woman is arrayed in purple and scarlet, both colors of wealth and power. In the ancient world colored cloth was expensive and fairly rare. Scarlet and purple in specific were colors often assosiated with royalty. Purple was the color of nobility in Rome and later became synonymous with imperial authority. She is decked with precious stones and the like. all this denotes her extreme wealth and outward glory. Think for a moment if you will of the fact that down through the ages in every culture of the ancient world the religious establishments held great wealth and power, their temples ordained with extravagant trappings. Often times they were also the store houses of their countries. (originaly purple signified nobility of the patrician class, only later did it become exclusively imperial).
The golden cup brings us back again to the wine of her fornication, again here the cup is full of filthiness, abominations, and fornication. Which describes the teachings and practices of the false religions.

17:5
"And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

As we talked about already in the thread, babylon is symbolic of the city of this world, the false religions down through time that have saught to overcome and corrupt God's people. This whore is the mother of all others, she has produced the harlots and abominations of the earth. To me this tends to suggest that the great whore is not necessarily one specific religion, but rather the overarching system that has been behind all false religions.

17:6
"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration."

Now, this I think completes the imagery of the cup and wine that the woman is holding. It says she is drunk with the blood of the saints and martyrs. Through out the image, the use of wine and then the cup and now the blood seems to be a mockery of christian communion. As the gospel was new wine, as jesus made wine at the wedding in cana, so her wine is filthy, an abomination and it is not of a wedding, but it is of fornication. Our wine is the Blood of Jesus, hers it the blood of Martyrs and saints. As a side note the word "admiration" here means to marvel or wonder.. as in astonishment, not positive admiration.

17:7
"And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. "

Alright the angel is going to tell us the mystery :) Here's where the fun starts

17:8
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

Alright, going back to revelation 13, we've seen all these refrenecs about the beast being wounded and coming back from the wound etc. Here we have the key to understanding this. The beast on which the woman sits, is the same as the 1st beast of revelation 13. We are told that the beast once was, and is not, and shall come up out of the bottomless pit.
As with the rest of this chapter, it seems likely that the verb tenses in this verse must be understood in context of john's time. The beast once was alive on earth, is not currently alive on earth, but will come up out of the bottomless pit to once again be alive on earth. Moreover, the entire world (well all those who aren't saved anyway) will marvel at this. implicit in this statement is the fact that the world will recognize the beast and will know that he once was, then was not, and now is again.

17:9
"And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."

I'll lump this together with the next verse

17:10
"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

Ok.. The seven heads of the beast are hear explained. they represent seven mountains (hills) that the woman sits on. Immediately this conjures an image of two famous cities that sit on seven hills.. Rome, and Jerusalem.
The seven heads are also seven kings. this tends to create a picture in which the seven heads are seven archtypes, or seven incarnations of the spirit behind the beast.
this section must be read in context of john's time (since the revelation is being made to john and explained to john) or it doesn't make any sense. 5 of the kings had already ruled and fallen by john's time, the 6th was ruling at john's time and the seventh is yet to come, and will only remain for a short time.
Who are these seven kings... well I'll get to that in the next verse

17:11
"And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

This tells us that the beast is an eigth king who is of the seven, ie he somehow belongs to the seven (or possible he IS one of the seven). The statement about the beast that he is going to perdition raises another interesting point. We know so far from revelation 13 that the beast has a statue of himself erected and worshiped. Paul also speaks of this and calls this man the "son of perdition". Paul also makes refrence to the son of perdition being restrained or held until the appointed time. This mystery is also explained by revelation 17 because it tells us WHERE the son of perdition is being held.. he is held in the bottomless pit until the appointed time.

So anyway, going back to who the 7 kings are and who the beast is. The idea has been put forward that the 7 kings are the first 7 caesars and that the 8th is an 8th caesar. the first seven being Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, vespasian, and Titus.. the 8th being Domitian. In this understanding Domitian was seen as a rebirth of Nero because both of them severely persecuted the church. However, there are historical problems with this view. First of all there are actually more than 7 caesars that ruled during this time. In 68 AD Nero's reign had become so unbearable that there was a general revolt in the empire.
In the year 68-69 there were no less than 6 different caesars, not including Vespasian. To be honest, I dont have a problem with excluding them because they weren't historicaly important. But technicaly a few of them were officialy recognized emperors.

The second problem, is much the greater problem. If this is the correct interpetation it would require that John was on the island of patmos, receiving the revelation during the reign of Vespasian (5 have fallen, one is and one must come). The king who is, in this sequence would have to be vespasian. This requires that John would have had to have been exiled to Patmos by Nero, and remained on the island receiving the revelation after Vespasian became emperor in 69 AD but before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD (the preterist view point requires this).
The problem for this view is that historicaly John has always been believed to have been exiled to Patmos by Domitian (81-96 AD) and only in the last couple hundred years has this been questioned. The argument pivots on what amounts to the only real conclusive bit of evidence that either side has to work with. This is a stamement made by St. Irenaeus that John was exiled and recieved the revelation during the reign of "domitianou". The preterist position goes to Robert Young a 19th century NT scholar who argued that "domitianou" refers to "domitius Nero" not to Domitian. Young argues that Domitians name would be "domitianikos" not "domitianou".
However, in greek in the new testament era the "-ou" ending one a word indicates the genitive case (ie the posessive) so, if a you were going to write "reign of domitian" domitian would have to be in the genitive case and would be "domitianou" just as Irenaeus wrote. "-ikos" on the other hand is a greek adjectival ending rather than a genitive ending. If you were to write Domitianikos, it would be something like how we say the "elizibethan era" while this could be a correct usage, "domitianou" is also a correct usage for the name of Domitian in this case. Therefore there is no reason to suppose that the account does not refer to Domitian, which is how all scholars have viewed it for about 1500 years.
To me this is good enough proof to accept that John was exiled by domitian.

That then leaves the question.. who are the 7? I don't claim to know conclusively, but my opinion is that these 7 kings probably refer to the 7 empires (and their embodiment in one specific king) who have tried to destroy God's people. If this is the case the seven would be
Egypt (pharoh at the time of the exodus)
Assyria ( Shalmaneser V or Sargon II)
Babylon (Nebuchadnezer)
Persia (there are a few candidates for the king but what sticks out is the attempted genocide of the jewish people by Haman)
Greece (or selucid empire) (alexander, or possibly Antiochus Epiphanes)
Rome (Nero, or Domitian although in rome there are other possible candidates as well)
The seventh of course is even more speculative since its future, however my guess would be
Nazi Germany (hitler)

I think this is inline also with the visions daniel is given of the empires of man (although those begin at his time specificly so they cut out the empires before his time egypt and assyria).

17:12
"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

Here the horns are explained, ten kings which as of yet have no kingdom, they will reign for a very short time along with the beast

17:13
"These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. "

The ten kings come to power with the purpose of supporting and setting up the beast. The image this conjures to me is a council of rulers, or a legislative body of some sort that comes into being to establish the beast. I think that as politics in europe progress the EU or some form of it, will establish a ten member ruling council, each member representing one of the major original EU founding nations. This council will have power to rule the EU behind the guise of democratic government. This council also will establish the beast (who will probably be one of the members) and be the seat of power from which he rises.

continued

[Simon_Templar]

-Continued-

17:14
"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful. "

These kings will seek to destory christianity, but Jesus will overcome. They more over will seek to destroy Jesus by elevating one of their own as god and messiah.

17:15
"And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

here the angel explains as we have already discussed the waters are many nations

17:16
"And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. "

Now this is interesting.. the political side, the power of the first beast in revelation which has been the support of the false religions (the woman sits on the beast, it is her support) will turn upon the system of false religions and destroy it. I have often commented that relativistic humanism, which I think will form the foundation of the end time religion, is a transient philosophy. It can't be sustained, and it can't sustain a society because it allows no exercise of authority or power.. so it will destroy try to destroy the christian world view, only to replace it (and itself) with something else.
Even so, the 10 kings and the beast turn upon the whore and destroy her.

17:17
"For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

These kings will agree to all this because it is God's will to fill up the wickedness of the world and history and bring it to and end.

17:18
"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

Earlier we were told that the woman sat on seven hills our mountains, and now we are told she is the great city that rules the kings of the earth... in my opinion, that seems very likely to be Rome. I believe the EU and the UN will set up a world religious system centered in Rome, basicly mocking that the church has been centered in Rome for 2000 years (an no I'm not a catholic)

sorry this was so long

[newbeliever02072005]

Revelation 13 & 17 - my thoughts and opinions ;)


Alright... I guess I'll start by looking at each verse in question

starting with Revelation 13:10
"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. "

Alright.. this verse is a statement of God's justice and judgement. Everyone who leads into captivity.. Those who lead into captivity are people who decieve (and thus make captive) to false beliefs, and also in a more physical sense these are people who make God's people prisoners (ie put them in jail etc) because of their beliefs. All of these people will, themselves will go into captivity because that is God's just judgement on them. Likewise all those who kill with the sword, ie those who martyr God's people, will themselves be killed with the sword, again God's judgement of justice against those who persecute his people.
"here is the patience of the saints" This is a statement which looks back at the two previous statements and says basicly, we know that God's justice will come upon those who persecute us, this knowledge is the patience of the saints, that we wait in persecution for the Justice of God to save us.

We are not to worry cause God will take care of us in the end. Trust in the Lord , justice will be served to the people that do wrong. - ok, got that one!


13:11 "And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. "

this beast comes up out of the land, signifying Israel. Thus he is an israeli. He has two horns like a lamb, the lamb of course is symbolic of Jesus/messiah and horns are usualy symbolic of power or authority. Thus this tends to suggest that he has authority which appears to be like that of Jesus or of the messiah. Remember that the thing which amazed the scribes and pharisees and the people in general about Jesus was he "spoke as one who had authority". His sermons on scripture his teachings had authority which even his enemies were astonished by.
"but he spake as a dragon". Of course the dragon is symbolic of Satan (and is used just one chapter before this). This person seems to speak with the authority of the messiah, yet what he says is straight from satan. His words are the words of the devil.

An israeli coming up from the land of Israel. Well try to imitate Jesus, by speaking/teaching like him. But these are lies which are actually from the devil.....

Right?

13:12
"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. "

This second beast has obvious power of his own (which seems to be a kind of religious authority), but yet in an interesting way, he exercises the power of the first beast... in some way this second beast is backed by and empowered by the first beast (see daniel and the king who does according to his will in chapter 11:36). As a result of the 1st beast allowing the 2nd beast to exercise his power.. the 2nd beast gives glory to the first beast and causes people to worship him.
To me this suggests that the 1st beast has temporal power (politics and military) while the 2nd beast has religious authority. The 1st beast becomes the muscle allowing the 2nd beast to do whatever he wants to do.. and in return the 2nd beast uses his religious authority to glorify and deify the 1st beast giving glory to him as god.

So, they will be partners in crime?

13:13
"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, "

This speaks of the miraculous and supernatural power/authority of the 2nd beast.

these are powers given to him from the devil, right?


13:14
"And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

The 2nd beast by virtue of his supernatural power and miracles is able to decieve much of the world and causes them to place a statue of the first beast in the temple in Jerusalem. (the first beast is here, for the second time, referred to as having received a mortal wound (ie a death causing wound) and yet returning).

Why is the the 2nd beast trying to get the world to worship the 1st beast? I ask this cause. Seems like both of them have powers given to them by the devil. What is the purpose of giving it to both and not just one?

13:15
"And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

The 2nd beast is able through his sorcery to seemingly give a kind of life to the statue of the first beast which enables it to speak and to order people put to death when they don't worship it. This is very like the ancient practice under several roman emperors to test loyalty of citizens by having them sacrifice and worship his statue. Christians were often persecuted because they refused to show loyalty to the state by worshiping the emperor's statue.

ok :)

13:16
"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: "

For some reason the 2nd beast causes everyone under his power to recieved a mark on their right hand or forhead.

This is a way of identifying everyone on earth, right? Keep a tracking system on them. Make them conform to the ideas of this beast.

13:17
"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. "

Here we see that the mark given appears to be economic in nature. No one is able to partake in commerce unless they have the mark.

A way of casting out the christians and making them all stand out?

13:18
"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six."

Many people have concluded that the mark of the beast is 666, however, thats not exactly what this says. It technicaly never says what the mark is. It says that this is the number of the beast and it is a number of a man. It is notable that 6 is the number of man. on the 6th day man was created. 6 is one less than 7 which is complete perfection. Man is in the image of God but is less than God's complete perfection. 3 of course is the number of the trinity.. so when you take 666 you have the number of man elevated to godhood.
It has been pointed out that nero caeser adds up to 666. However, there are two early church writers who state that, although there is no way of knowing for sure what the name of the beast will be (because there are many possible ways to come to 666) they both suggested that one very likely possability, in their view, would be the name Titan. These writers also commented that many people were using the wrong method of calculating name values, so one does need to be careful because there is a wrong way and a right way to calculate the name value. I don't know what the correct way is.

I'll break this post here and give my views on revelation 17 in another post

Someone told me that they thought that the internet was going to be the mark. The letter "W" is represented in the Hebrew language as number 6. Which you find in front of all web addresses....."WWW" (world wide web). I guess you are right though. There can be many possiblities of what the mark of the beast can be. It wont matter to us anyhows, right? We will be in heaven with God at this time, during the tribulation period.

Thank you so much for taking your time to explain more about this. I am not good at debating, but I have been reading your answers and trying to digest it all. Its alot to think about. Take care!

God Bless!
newbeliever :)

[Simon_Templar]

Another interesting note on 666 is that all upc barcodes contain 666, the first, middle and last number of all barcodes is 6. I'm not saying this is the mark, but it has to do with the way the laser reads and process the barcode.. so it could be something like this.

[novcncy]

Simon, I liked (an mostly agreed) with your explanation and logic behind the 7/8 kings. Thanks for taking the time to spell it out.