Are Lutherans And Catholics Closely Related?

[PACKY]

I know that, we lutherans are "reformed" catholics, how else are we similar?

[ChiRho]

I know that, we lutherans are "reformed" catholics, how else are we similar?


Only outwardly.

[PACKY]

Only outwardly.

How?

[ChiRho]

How?

Bells, Collars, Robes, Church Design, Artwork, Adornment...etc.

[SPALATIN]

Bells, Collars, Robes, Church Design, Artwork, Adornment...etc.

Don't forget that much of our liturgy is similar as well.:D

[IowaLutheran]

Only outwardly.

There are more similiarities than just outward appearances:

(1) Infant baptism
(2) Belief in the real presence (I know there are differences, but we share that in common as opposed to the rest of the protestant community).
(3) Belief in the three creeds of the church: apostle's, nicene, and athanasian
(4) While Lutherans are far less dogmatic about her than Catholics, the Lutheran confessions do refer to Mary as "ever-virgin".

[ChiRho]

There are more similiarities than just outward appearances:

(1) Infant baptism
(2) Belief in the real presence (I know there are differences, but we share that in common as opposed to the rest of the protestant community).
(3) Belief in the three creeds of the church: apostle's, nicene, and athanasian
(4) While Lutherans are far less dogmatic about her than Catholics, the Lutheran confessions do refer to Mary as "ever-virgin".

1) If we equivocate, then yes you are correct, sort of...

2) No way...there is too much different.

3) I grant you this.

4) You might want to check this up. In the original German Lutheran Confessions, "semper virgo" (ever- virgin) is not found, but was added later in the Latin version.


Like I said, if you want to glaze over everything and fail to actually judge each confession by what it is actually confessing, then yeah were clones. But if you scratch the surface you will soon find that we are on opposite ends of the catholic spectrum.



Only outwardly.

[IowaLutheran]

1) If we equivocate, then yes you are correct, sort of...

2) No way...there is too much different.

3) I grant you this.

4) You might want to check this up. In the original German Lutheran Confessions, "semper virgo" (ever- virgin) is not found, but was added later in the Latin version.


Like I said, if you want to glaze over everything and fail to actually judge each confession by what it is actually confessing, then yeah were clones. But if you scratch the surface you will soon find that we are on opposite ends of the catholic spectrum.



Only outwardly.

I wasn't trying to be equivocal, my point was simply that on those issues, we are much more closely related to Catholics than the rest of Protestantism. (I was aware of the German/Latin difference in the Smalcald Articles, but that is a distinction without a difference, as Luther wrote the SA, and he is on record in other documents regarding his belief in the ever-virginity of Mary).

I would agree with your comment that we are "on opposite ends of the catholic spectrum" - I guess you and I were answering the question differently. My point is that while we are on opposite ends of the spectrum of catholicity from Roman Catholicity, we are still catholic, as opposed to the other protestants who are not catholic at all.

[PACKY]

I wasn't trying to be equivocal, my point was simply that on those issues, we are much more closely related to Catholics than the rest of Protestantism. (I was aware of the German/Latin difference in the Smalcald Articles, but that is a distinction without a difference, as Luther wrote the SA, and he is on record in other documents regarding his belief in the ever-virginity of Mary).

I would agree with your comment that we are "on opposite ends of the catholic spectrum" - I guess you and I were answering the question differently. My point is that while we are on opposite ends of the spectrum of catholicity from Roman Catholicity, we are still catholic, as opposed to the other protestants who are not catholic at all.

Thanks for the great, answers and help. We are still considered catholics?

[IowaLutheran]

Thanks for the great, answers and help. We are still considered catholics?


Catholic, but not Roman Catholic. This web page explains the details much better than I can:

http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/

[Lenny]

We are still considered catholics?We are certainly not "Catholics" in the sense that the word is used in the vernacular.

Therefore: no, we are not considered Catholics

[Protoevangel]

Thanks for the great, answers and help. We are still considered catholics?In the sense that we hold to the truths as handed down by the church catholic for 2000 years, and only eliminate the abuses that were later added, we are truly catholic. But of course, we are not Catholic.

In a similar sense, we are orthodox, but we are not Orthodox.

Clear as mud? :D

[Qoheleth]

I know that, we lutherans are "reformed" catholics, how else are we similar?

In the paragraphs between the two parts of the Augsburg Confession, we confess that:

"there is nothing here that departs from the Scriptures or the catholic church, or from the Roman Church, insofar as we can tell from its writers."13 We also confess that "the churches among us do not dissent from the catholic church in any article of faith but only set aside a few abuses that are new and were accepted because of corruption over time contrary to the intention of the canons…"




4) You might want to check this up. In the original German Lutheran Confessions, "semper virgo" (ever- virgin) is not found, but was added later in the Latin version


Luther, Chemnitz, Melancthon, Gerhard...and others subscribed to Semper Virgo as it is in the Confessions. Your point is?

Along with Prayers for the dead
Private Confession
Invocation of the saints (rightly understood)
Holy Tradition
and so on...rightly understood

Q

[Qoheleth]

In the sense that we hold to the truths as handed down by the church catholic for 2000 years, and only eliminate the abuses that were later added, we are truly catholic. But of course, we are not Catholic.

In a similar sense, we are orthodox, but we are not Orthodox.

Well said. We practice the orthodox catholic evangelical faith.

Q

[JADVirginia]

My wife is RC. I am Pepsi ... I mean Lutheran. My mom's half of my family is RC as well. So you can imagine that I've been to a lot of Catholic masses in my lifetime, and I have lots of discussions on similarities and differences.

I agree with both points on this discussion: Lutherans outwardly are a lot like Roman Catholics in liturgy and associated tradition. This is grounded in our common understandings, but I will confess that every time I've gone to Catholic Mass, I cringe to myself at some of the practices.

For example, although I am not invited to "their" Eucharist, I genuinely do not understand why the Catholic laity doesn't thirst for full communion with Christ by taking the Blood of Christ. That the priests reserve it for themselves is a shame. And the hocus-pocus of their ritual for communion just seems to wrap too much man-made tradition around the outwardly simple actions that Jesus did on the night he was betrayed.

Similarly, patron saints creep here and there. Poor fellows ... can't we let them rest in peace while we focus on praying to God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

Even the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification lists a lot of differences that still remain:


These include, among other topics, the relationship between the Word of God and church doctrine, as well as ecclesiology, ecclesial authority, church unity, ministry, the sacraments, and the relation between justification and social ethics.


JDDJ, at para. 43. But while there are serious differences, most Catholics I know are loving people, inspired by Faith in Christ, and God really does a lot of good work through them. If those aren't fundamental, "inward" characteristics that Lutherans have in common with Catholics, then we've missed the boat.

JADVirginia