Joint Declaration on th Doctrine of Justification

[Bulldog]

I'm interested to say what Lutherans think about this.

[SemStudent08]

I was lucky enough to be in attendance in Augsburg, Germany to watch the signing ot the JDDJ (as a LYO - Lutheran Youth Orginization representative) so I might be biased. But in my opinion it took more movement from the side of the Catholic church than from the side of the Lutheran church. The basis of it is primarily Grace Alone Through Faith Alone. The primarily Catholic portion is the recognition that good works follow from GATFA necessairily. Which I can buy, I will gladly allow that the good of this world is as a result of the work of the Holy Spirit. Once again I will quote the JDDJ (http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/pccujnt4.htm): "Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works." But it also acknowledges some of the differences between the understandings of this Doctrine, but that is the only way we learn, examining the differences and engaging in healthy and productive dialog.

[revjpw]

I was lucky enough to be in attendance in Augsburg, Germany to watch the signing ot the JDDJ (as a LYO - Lutheran Youth Orginization representative) so I might be biased. But in my opinion it took more movement from the side of the Catholic church than from the side of the Lutheran church. The basis of it is primarily Grace Alone Through Faith Alone. The primarily Catholic portion is the recognition that good works follow from GATFA necessairily. Which I can buy, I will gladly allow that the good of this world is as a result of the work of the Holy Spirit. Once again I will quote the JDDJ (http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/pccujnt4.htm): "Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works." But it also acknowledges some of the differences between the understandings of this Doctrine, but that is the only way we learn, examining the differences and engaging in healthy and productive dialog.


The fact is that Rome has never changed its teachings regarding justification. Your statement concerning movement from the Catholic side is flatly false. They never moved.

You should look into how they define "grace" before you put a lot of faith in that document. It stands in stark contradiction to the Biblical teaching of justification by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone.

[CrossWiseMag]

Rev's right, here. The Roman catechism makes it clear that they haven't compromise with Lutherans a bit in JDDJ. Terms like "grace" were intentionally left undefined so both parties could come away feeling good about the progress they'd made. And of course, John Paul II didn't exactly give JDDJ a ringing endorsement.

If Rome is serious about compromise, it must lift the anathemas of Trent. And of course, Rome has painted itself into a corner with its theological contortions regarding the infallibility of councils, so that it cannot merely lift the anathemas of Trent. The only way to reach agreement with Rome is for Rome to repent. Repentance, I think, will require a 180-degree turn on declarations about Roman primacy, infallibility of councils, and most importantly, the doctrine of justification. Nuance won't do a thing to repair the rift that Rome caused.

In the meantime, we pray for those who follow the bishop of Rome, that they may uncover the Gospel of Jesus Christ through the "felicitous inconsistency" that has saved so many saints.

[SemStudent08]

The fact is that Rome has never changed its teachings regarding justification. Your statement concerning movement from the Catholic side is flatly false. They never moved.

You should look into how they define "grace" before you put a lot of faith in that document. It stands in stark contradiction to the Biblical teaching of justification by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone.

Didn't I already say I didn't expect you to agree with this, JPW? As for grace, the common beilef declared in JDDJ is "We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God's judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God's grace." At which point the document goes on to acknowledge the differences held between Lutheran and Catholics concerning human "cooperation." This acknowldgement that the JDDJ expresses differences is in my posts on this subject, but I guess not everyone reads everything in my posts. However, there is still a basis for a discussion, one WITHOUT any sort of condemning or inflammatory remarks. I really doubt I'm going to continue this discussion though, I have difficulty with trying to debate with anyone who simply dismisses everyting I have to say out of hand.

[ChiRho]

Didn't I already say I didn't expect you to agree with this, JPW? As for grace, the common beilef declared in JDDJ is "We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God's judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God's grace." At which point the document goes on to acknowledge the differences held between Lutheran and Catholics concerning human "cooperation." This acknowldgement that the JDDJ expresses differences is in my posts on this subject, but I guess not everyone reads everything in my posts. However, there is still a basis for a discussion, one WITHOUT any sort of condemning or inflammatory remarks. I really doubt I'm going to continue this discussion though, I have difficulty with trying to debate with anyone who simply dismisses everyting I have to say out of hand.



But if I believe "grace" to mean "x" and you believe "grace" means "y", then we are not in agreement although we both confess:

"We are saved by grace"

So there is no true agreement.

[SemStudent08]

But if I believe "grace" to mean "x" and you believe "grace" means "y", then we are not in agreement although we both confess:

"We are saved by grace"

So there is no true agreement.

Grace between the two is the same. Our understanding of what we do in terms of that grace is different. Here, the next two paragraphs in the document discuss the differences in our response to grace (essentially Lutherans are passive receptors and Catholics are active, a difference between Lutherans and most Christian denominations actually).

"20.When Catholics say that persons "cooperate" in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God's justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities.
21.According to Lutheran teaching, human beings are incapable of cooperating in their salvation, because as sinners they actively oppose God and his saving action. Lutherans do not deny that a person can reject the working of grace. When they emphasize that a person can only receive (mere passive) justification, they mean thereby to exclude any possibility of contributing to one's own justification, but do not deny that believers are fully involved personally in their faith, which is effected by God's Word. [cf. Sources for 4.1]."


Ok, I'd really like to not have to quote more of the JDDJ (http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/pccujnt4.htm), so let me encourage everyone to read it! And thank you, ChiRho, for a logical and healthy debate question.

[revjpw]

I really doubt I'm going to continue this discussion though, I have difficulty with trying to debate with anyone who simply dismisses everyting I have to say out of hand.

It would be easier to have a discussion on the subject if what you state has any semblance of fact in it. here's an example:
In another post you stated..

Grace between the two is the same. Our understanding of what we do in terms of that grace is different.


This is absolutely not true. The Roman Catholic definition of "grace" is vastly different from that of orthodox Lutheranism. We hold that "grace" is wholly from God and given as a free gift reagrdless of our work or merit or satisfactions or how much money we give to the Church. It is purely by this "grace" of God that we are justified. The clear Biblical teaching: "Grace alone through faith alone, not by works."

The Roman Catholics define "grace" as a substance that God infuses into us so that we can continue to do the good works that they deem necessary for salvation, namely pennance, satisfactions, etc.
If this is not their teaching, and they do indeed teach the Biblical truth of "by grace alone through faith alone, and not by works," then they would have to do a complete about-face on their positions of indulgences, prayer through the saints, the rite of pennance, etc., all of which teaches trust in something other than the meritorious work of Christ and Christ alone.

A couple of good resources on the subject is "Justification and Rome" by Robert Preus (available from CPH) and "The Examination of the Council of Trent" by Martin Chemnitz, the official Lutheran response to the Council of Trent, which can also be found through CPH

[SemStudent08]

I refer you to JDDJ (http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/pccujnt4.htm) - 4.7 The Good Works of the Justified

[Protoevangel]

Regardless of what JDDJ says, how does the CCC correspond to the Lutheran understanding of Justification and Grace? This is what we should look to, not some third document.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm


PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST

SECTION ONE
MAN'S VOCATION LIFE IN THE SPIRIT

CHAPTER THREE
GOD'S SALVATION: LAW AND GRACE

ARTICLE 2
GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION

I. JUSTIFICATION

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35 1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36

[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37 1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41 1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42 1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God's love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45

II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49 2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51 2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52 2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54

2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:

Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55 2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: 'If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"58

[revjpw]

Regardless of what JDDJ says, how does the CCC correspond to the Lutheran understanding of Justification and Grace? This is what we should look to, not some third document.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

And through this it is very clear to see that they tie Sanctification into Justification. It is a "works' oriented teaching on salvation. That clearly contradicts the Scriptural teaching of Justification by Grace alone through Faith alone on account of Christ alone. We do not, in any way shape or form, cooperate in our justification. Sanctification is the result of Justification. If we are not justified through the grace of God alone, then the Holy Spirit does not move in us to do the "good works that have been prepared for us in advance." (Eph. 2:10)

This teaching is incompatible with the Biblical, and thus the Lutheran, teaching on Justification.

So where does that leave JDDJ? :confused:

[Rechtgläubig]

So where does that leave JDDJ? :confused:

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/toilet.jpg

[SPALATIN]

May I please flush? ;)

[Rechtgläubig]

May I please flush? ;)

Please do... twice! :thumbsup:


Oh and while you are in there can you post this on the wall? http://bookofconcord.org/augsburgdefense/4_justification.html


That might help get rid of the stank!

;)

[SPALATIN]

Please do... twice! :thumbsup:


Oh and while you are in there can you post this on the wall? http://bookofconcord.org/augsburgdefense/4_justification.html


That might help get rid of the stank!

;)

Ah yes, the air freshener. :D

[revjpw]

Oh and while you are in there can you post this on the wall? http://bookofconcord.org/augsburgdefense/4_justification.html


You could do that and get away with it.
If I did it, it would disappear and I would end up with another nasty "Private Message." ;)

[Rechtgläubig]

You could do that and get away with it.
If I did it, it would disappear and I would end up with another nasty "Private Message." ;)

Weird! How much money are you currently paying out to the moderators? :confused: :D


:holy:

[revjpw]

Weird! How much money are you currently paying out to the moderators?


Ohhhhhhh! Is that what it is?? :doh: I thought there was something wrong.

Tell me, who do I give my credit card number to?:confused:

^_^

[VeryTiredGirl]

Ohhhhhhh! Is that what it is?? :doh: I thought there was something wrong.

Tell me, who do I give my credit card number to?:confused:

^_^

I'm not one of the moderators, but you're welcome to give me your credit card number, along with a few blank, signed cheques. :P

[Protoevangel]

I was the firsr to vote "undecided" above, because I see good in the "agreement", but I see it not as an end, but as the beginning of dialoge. If it were an end unto itself, as some in the ELCA seem to view it, it would certianly be fatally flawed. We have to see it for what it is, and it is a useless document if we put any real, binding significance to it. It is a hollow shell to the Catholics, because it does not truly uphold the CCC teaching on Grace and Justification. Therefore, it can be nothing more than the same hollow shell to us as Lutherans. Even as a beginning for further dialog, because of the same flaws, it's usefulness cannot be understated. But it is one step... one attempt in what I hope continues as a dialoge with our Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ.

[revjpw]

I was the firsr to vote "undecided" above, because I see good in the "agreement", but I see it not as an end, but as the beginning of dialoge. If it were an end unto itself, as some in the ELCA seem to view it, it would certianly be fatally flawed. We have to see it for what it is, and it is a useless document if we put any real, binding significance to it. It is a hollow shell to the Catholics, because it does not truly uphold the CCC teaching on Grace and Justification. Therefore, it can be nothing more than the same hollow shell to us as Lutherans. Even as a beginning for further dialog, because of the same flaws, it's usefulness cannot be understated. But it is one step... one attempt in what I hope continues as a dialoge with our Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ.

We can certainly engage in dialogue with our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters without giving them the assumption that their false teaching on justification is in any way credible, which is what JDDJ does.
It is clearly a step backward, not forward.

[merechristian]

as someone who was raised lutheran and married a catholic,and have a foot in both churches,i can honestly say i,ve heard more grace centered sermons at my wifes catholic parish,than i have at the elca church i sometimes attend,if catholics don,t believe there saved by grace someone forgot to tell the parish priests! in christ,mere christian

[revjpw]

as someone who was raised lutheran and married a catholic,and have a foot in both churches,i can honestly say i,ve heard more grace centered sermons at my wifes catholic parish,than i have at the elca church i sometimes attend,if catholics don,t believe there saved by grace someone forgot to tell the parish priests! in christ,mere christian

They (Roman Catholics) use the same word (grace), it just doesn't mean the same thing. :scratch:

[JADVirginia]

I agree with SemStudent08.

Readers of the JDDJ also must understand the limitations of the declaration. It identifies an agreement on a basic truth accepted in both churches. We jointly recognize our differences as well in the application and lexicon, and statements 18 through 39 detail several ways in which Lutherans and Catholics write about, think and apply the basic truth similarly but differently. But these differences do not mean we have not reached a valid consensus on the basic truth. Look at paragraph 40:

40. The understanding of the doctrine of justification set forth in this Declaration shows that a consensus in basic truths of the doctrine of justification exists between Lutherans and Catholics. In light of this consensus the remaining differences of language, theological elaboration, and emphasis in the understanding of justification described in paras. 18 to 39 are acceptable. Therefore the Lutheran and the Catholic explications of justification are in their difference open to one another and do not destroy the consensus regarding the basic truths.

Luther wanted to reform the Catholic church, not create a schism. As a professional mediator, I know that one of the first steps in resolving controversies is to define common ground. The JDDJ is a small but significant first step on what is perhaps the most fundamental of Lutheran issues. It is a statement of common interests and principles upon which further discussion can rely. It has taken 500 years, but we are making progress.

JADVirginia

[revjpw]

I agree with SemStudent08.

Readers of the JDDJ also must understand the limitations of the declaration. It identifies an agreement on a basic truth accepted in both churches. We jointly recognize our differences as well in the application and lexicon, and statements 18 through 39 detail several ways in which Lutherans and Catholics write about, think and apply the basic truth similarly but differently. But these differences do not mean we have not reached a valid consensus on the basic truth. Look at paragraph 40:

40. The understanding of the doctrine of justification set forth in this Declaration shows that a consensus in basic truths of the doctrine of justification exists between Lutherans and Catholics. In light of this consensus the remaining differences of language, theological elaboration, and emphasis in the understanding of justification described in paras. 18 to 39 are acceptable. Therefore the Lutheran and the Catholic explications of justification are in their difference open to one another and do not destroy the consensus regarding the basic truths.

Luther wanted to reform the Catholic church, not create a schism. As a professional mediator, I know that one of the first steps in resolving controversies is to define common ground. The JDDJ is a small but significant first step on what is perhaps the most fundamental of Lutheran issues. It is a statement of common interests and principles upon which further discussion can rely. It has taken 500 years, but we are making progress.

JADVirginia

The only common ground that JDDJ defines is that both Lutherans and Roman Catholics spell the word "grace" with the same letters. That's about it.

What JDDJ really does is demonstrate the willingness of those Lutheran church bodies who signed it to take a giant leap backwards in the direction of the Roman teaching of a subject that was the main point of the Reformation in the first place. I certainly do not call that "progress." (Unless of course your goal is to become a Roman Catholic.)

[RedneckAnglican]

The only common ground that JDDJ defines is that both Lutherans and Roman Catholics spell the word "grace" with the same letters. That's about it.

What JDDJ really does is demonstrate the willingness of those Lutheran church bodies who signed it to take a giant leap backwards in the direction of the Roman teaching of a subject that was the main point of the Reformation in the first place. I certainly do not call that "progress." (Unless of course your goal is to become a Roman Catholic.)

I'm kinda going to have to agree with Rev on this one (there's some I never thought I'd say;) )...It appears to me that with all of these agreements that we seem to be making with all of these other groups seem to be "watering down" Lutheranism...I've studied Luther, Wesley, Calvin, and a few of the other "heavy hitters" (theologically speaking)...there are similarities, of course there would be, but some of the ideas are pretty different...folks I'm sorry, but when it come to this close don't count....Like my ole' daddy used to say close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and neuclear weapons...

[CSMR]

Regardless of what JDDJ says, how does the CCC correspond to the Lutheran understanding of Justification and Grace? This is what we should look to, not some third document.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm
Apparently the CCC is not binding. I read that in an essay by Justice Scalia on the death penalty.
Do you have any comments on this section of the CCC?
At first glance I struggle to find anything which I could say no to, but on the other hand the CCC text seems deficient in recognising the opposition of grace and human nature - grace and human nature seem to fit together too naturally in the CCC view.

[Tetzel]

I voted other. It is vague enough that it really doesn't mean much, but the LWF should show more caution in dealing with the Vatican.

[Tetzel]

What JDDJ really does is demonstrate the willingness of those Lutheran church bodies who signed it to take a giant leap backwards in the direction of the Roman teaching of a subject that was the main point of the Reformation in the first place. I certainly do not call that "progress." (Unless of course your goal is to become a Roman Catholic.)

I agree. Even if the LWF is able to get minor concessions if Lutherans yield to Rome then the doctrinal position will simply be re-clarified by a pope in a generation or two later and the false teachings will continue.

[Rechtgläubig]

It is vague enough that it really doesn't mean much, but the LWF should show more caution in dealing with the Vatican.

Yeah, it is not like it is any big secret what our Lutheran churches teach and believe. If they want to have "talks" on Justification, then the LWF should have mailed the Vatican a Triglotta, a copy of St. Paul's letter to the Galations, and his letter to the Romans.


:confused: