Padraig
19th April 2005, 07:01 PM
Hey, guys, I know I'm supposed to be fasting CF but something has come up and I need some info. I will (try to) restrict my use of the boards to this thread until Pascha to help maintain the spirit of fasting from it but I need you guys! :)
Today at work, a really nice JW came to visit and he admitted he knew nothing about Orthodoxy and seemed intrigued by the few things I told him. He was a very likable guy and seems open-minded enough to listen. He left a couple of magazines, one of which was primarily focused on dismantling the doctrine of the Trinity.
Now, I'm not worried about the many arguments that come out of JW tracts which are nothing more than rationalizations of Scripture from a sola scriptura point of view. What got me was a reference to the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) which stated that the doctrine of the Trinity wasn't established until the close of the 4th century.
I know that the 1st council was called to deal with Arius' teachings which tells me that the Trinity was taught from the beginning, otherwise no one would have had a problem with his teachings. What I need are some ante-nicene writings that discuss the Triune Nature of God. This would show him that the doctrine was taught from the beginning and might help me to better explain the doctrine as most JW's don't understand it as it is understood by Orthodoxy.
Thanks for any and all responses. I miss you guys and am anticipating coming back fully in May. Peace!
Though the trinitarian formula is implicit in John's Gospel, (which the founder of JW altered btw), the term Trinity was coined by Tertullian in the 3rd century. Remember though, it was always the Tradition of the Church. All of the Apostolic Fathers spoke in tinitarian language however (Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Shepard of Hermas, the Didache). For example I Clement 46.6: Have we not one God and one Christ and one Spirit of grace...
It will be worth noting though that the Trinity is God's self-revelation, and it is one of those things that non Christians might not be capable of grasping. I commend you witnessing to your brother, but try not to be too disappointed if he cannot accept it. God Himself must reveal it to him. May it be so.
Slainte,
Padraig
PS another reference from the Apostolic Fathers
Martyrdom of Polycarp Appendix II (22.1): ...by the word of Jesus Christ which is in accord with the gospel. Together with him be glory to God and the Father and the Holy Spirit...
Philip
19th April 2005, 09:38 PM
Here is a nice collection:
The Didache 7c. AD 70
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.
St Ignatius to the Ephesians c. AD 100
Nevertheless, I have heard of some who have passed on from this to you, having false doctrine, whom ye did not suffer to sow among you, but stopped your ears, that ye might not receive those things which were sown by them, as being stones of the temple of the Father, prepared for the building of God the Father, and drawn up on high by the instrument of Jesus Christ, which is the cross, making use of the Holy Spirit as a rope, while your faith was the means by which you ascended, and your love the way which led up to God. Ye, therefore, as well as all your fellow-travellers, are God-bearers, temple-bearers, Christ-bearers, bearers of holiness, adorned in all respects with the commandments of Jesus Christ, in whom also I exult that I have been thought worthy, by means of this Epistle, to converse and rejoice with you, because with respect to your Christian life ye love nothing but God only.
St Ignatius to the Philadelphians c. AD 100
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, which is at Philadelphia, in Asia, which has obtained mercy, and is established in the harmony of God, and rejoiceth unceasingly in the passion of our Lord, and is filled with all mercy through his resurrection; which I salute in the blood of Jesus Christ, who is our eternal and enduring joy, especially if [men] are in unity with the bishop, the presbyters, and the deacons, who have been appointed according to the mind of Jesus Christ, whom He has established in security, after His own will, and by His Holy Spirit.
The Prayer of St Polycarp, as recorded in the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp, c. AD 155
"O Lord God Almighty, the Father of thy beloved and blessed Son Jesus Christ, by whom we have received the knowledge of Thee, the God of angels and powers, and of every creature, and of the whole race of the righteous who live before thee, I give Thee thanks that Thou hast counted me, worthy of this day and this hour, that I should have a part in the number of Thy martyrs, in the cup of thy Christ, to the resurrection of eternal life, both of soul and body, through the incorruption [imparted] by the Holy Ghost. Among whom may I be accepted this day before Thee as a fat and acceptable sacrifice, according as Thou, the ever-truthful God, hast fore-ordained, hast revealed beforehand to me, and now hast fulfilled. Wherefore also I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen. "
St Justin Martyr. First Apology, Chapter 61 c. AD 156
Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
St Theophilus of Antioch To Autolycus 2:15 A.D. 181
In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His wisdom.
St Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies 1.10.1 c. AD 190
The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit,
Tertullian, Against Praxeas 25 c. AD 200
What follows Philip's question, and the Lord's whole treatment of it, to the end of John's Gospel, continues to furnish us with statements of the same kind, distinguishing the Father and the Son, with the properties of each. Then there is the Paraclete or Comforter, also, which He promises to pray for to the Father, and to send from heaven after He had ascended to the Father. He is called "another Comforter," indeed; but in what way He is another we have already shown, "He shall receive of mine," says Christ, just as Christ Himself received of the Father's. Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are, one essence, not one Person, as it is said, "I and my Father are One," in respect of] unity of substance not singularity of number. Run through the whole Gospel, and you will find that He whom you believe to be the Father (described as acting for the Father, although you, for your part, forsooth, suppose that "the Father, being the husbandman," must surely have been on earth) is once more recognised by the Son as in heaven, when, "lifting up His eyes thereto," He commended His disciples to the safe-keeping of the Father. We have, moreover, in that other Gospel a clear revelation, i.e. of the Son's distinction from the Father, "My God, why have You forsaken me?" and again, (in the third Gospel,) "Father, into Your hands I commend my spirit." But even if (we had not these passages, we meet with satisfactory evidence) after His resurrection and glorious victory over death. Now that all the restraint of His humiliation is taken away, He might, if possible, have shown Himself as the Father to so faithful a woman (as Mary Magdalene) when she approached to touch Him, out of love, not from curiosity, nor with Thomas' incredulity. But not so; Jesus saith to her, "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren" (and even in this He proves Himself to be the Son; for if He had been the Father, He would have called them His children, (instead of His brethren), "and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." Now, does this mean, I ascend as the Father to the Father, and as God to God? Or as the Son to the Father, and as the Word to God? Wherefore also does this Gospel, at its very termination, intimate that these things were ever written, if it be not, to use its own words, "that you might believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?" Whenever, therefore, you take any of the statements of this Gospel, and apply them to demonstrate the identity of the Father and the Son, supposing that they serve your views therein, you are contending against the definite purpose of the Gospel. For these things certainly are not written that you may believe that Jesus Christ is the Father, but the Son.
Origen, The Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1 AD 225]
"No, rejecting every suggestion of corporeality, we hold that the Word and the Wisdom was begotten out of the invisible and incorporeal God, without anything corporal being acted upon . . . the expression which we employ, however that there was never a time when he did not exist is to be taken with a certain allowance. For these very words ‘when’ and ‘never’ are terms of temporal significance, while whatever is said of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is to be understood as transcending all time, all ages" …"For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages" (ibid.).
St Gregory the Wonderworker, Declaration of Faith A.D. 265
"There is one God. . . . There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything superinduced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever".