Eternal Security?

[Cary.Melvin]

What does the Baptist teaching of Eternal Security mean?

[mesue]

That we can be secure in our eternal destination.

[SonOfThunder]

This Scripture is often quoted


Jhn 10:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn010.html#28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Jhn 10:29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn010.html#29) My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand

As a believer we are to be obediant to the new Spirit that now abides in us.

There are many many Scriptures that speak about enduring to the end, allowing the Spirit to override the flesh, Paul speaks about it often and here we see an example of where he is speaking to the bretheren.

ROM 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
ROM 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God

[rural_preacher]

Ephesians 1:13,14

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession–to the praise of his glory.


--

[GreenEyedLady]

These are the scriptures which really helped me understand. I thought about the physical circumsision that little boy's go through. Well, there is no way that part of the skin can ever be replaced. Once the Hebrews circumsied themselves they could never NOT be a Hebrew anymore.
The same goes for spiritual circumsision which is the work of God on the souls of men and woman. This work happens WHILE WE ARE here, not in heaven. There is no possible way that any human can "undo" the work that God has done to a soul. In a nutshell, salvation is the operation of God made without hands. This is essentially what happens to your body and soul when the Holy Spirit is "quickened" inside your body and soul and seals it. Anway, I hope I am not confusing you. I will be happy to go into more depth.
GEL


Colossians 2:11-15 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

[Stinker]

What does the Baptist teaching of Eternal Security mean?


When one is 'born-again' according to (Jn.3:3-8 & 1Pet.1:21) they are then regenerated and their character or morals are immediately changed for the better. They have a zeal for learning more of the word of God and for obeying all the commands that apply to Christians today.

Baptists do not believe that a person is permanently saved by just their saying they believe..............without any of the above evidence.

[Cary.Melvin]

Is the Baptist teaching of Eternal Security like the Calvinist view of predestination and election? Which teaches that those that are predestined to salvation would naturaly have an eternal security of salvation. And that faith, good works, and living a righteous life is the affirming evidence to a believer that they are indeed one of the elect.

[GreenEyedLady]

Is the Baptist teaching of Eternal Security like the Calvinist view of predestination and election? Which teaches that those that are predestined to salvation would naturaly have an eternal security of salvation. And that faith, good works, and living a righteous life is the affirming evidence to a believer that they are indeed one of the elect.

We do not believe in predestination like the Calvinist. We believe that God can save any body any where and at any time. Its not like God cannot change His mind. He is all merciful and compassionate.
GEL

[greeker57married]

CARY.MELVIN


Is the Baptist teaching of Eternal Security like the Calvinist view of predestination and election? Which teaches that those that are predestined to salvation would naturaly have an eternal security of salvation. And that faith, good works, and living a righteous life is the affirming evidence to a believer that they are indeed one of the elect

The perseverence of the saints is a Calvistic Doctrine. This doctrine means that if one is truly saved he will keep on keeping on, he will not fall way. He will keep on persevering in the faith. Baptist do have some Calvinistic leanings. Most Baptist are a balance view between Calvinism and Arminianism in their doctrine. There are some more Calvinistic Baptist, some are five point Calvinists. Yes the doctrine of eternal security or eternal salvation does relate to Calvinism. But the most important thing the truth of eternal security is taught in Scripture.

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This is a five link chain of security. "Those whom he foreknew, these very same ones he predestinated, these very same ones he predestinated, he called, these very same one He called, he justified all so, These very same ones He justified, He also glorified. He did this with out losing a single one.

Foreknowledge and predestination take place in eternity past. The calling and justification of the sinner took place in time as he heard the Word of God and trusted Christ, he was justified. One day he will be glorified when he goes to heaven.

These five verbs are all in the Aorist indicative which is past time. In the mind of God who decreed these things it is as if all five phases has already taken place in the lives of believers. Because God said it would happen.But in reality they have not all taken palce yet, but they will because God said. This is eternal security. God take the believer through all five phases without loosing one, from being chosen to glorification. There is no room for one to lose his salvation.

God Bless
Greeker

[SonOfThunder]

PSA 51:1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

PSA 51:2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

PSA 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

PSA 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

PSA 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

PSA 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

PSA 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

PSA 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

PSA 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

PSA 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

PSA 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

PSA 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.


Is this security?


James

[rural_preacher]

PSA 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.


Is this security?


James

That is an OT statement. Read Ephesians chapter 1 and Romans chapter 8 verses 38 and 39. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit and nothing can separate us from the love of God (that love is salvation in Christ).

--

[SumTinWong]

Nothing can seperate us from God but ourselves. No one can pluck us out of the hand of God, but we can walk away from God.

[Cary.Melvin]

Nothing can seperate us from God but ourselves. No one can pluck us out of the hand of God, but we can walk away from God.

Do all Baptists agree with this statement?

[SumTinWong]

No I think I am in the minority.

[Andyman_1970]

Although I can see where someone could walk away from their faith, and thus walk away from God and their salvation this to me brings up several questions:

First, if this is the case (that we can choose to walk away from God), then we're only a hop skip and a jump from being able to "sin away" our salvation - which for a follower of Jesus I do not believe according to the Scriptures we can do.

Second, those that do choose to walk away from God, were they even truly a Christian to begin with? I would vote no, if you're truly indwelt by the Holy Spirit a person would not walk away from God would they?

Anyway, just some food for thought.

[Gwenyfur]

Nothing can seperate us from God but ourselves. No one can pluck us out of the hand of God, but we can walk away from God.
This is true...but if I may qualify....
We are always in His hand once He has called us His own....

However...we can be living in His permissive will instead of His provident will....
we are still however in His hand....I believe that phrase 'no man may pluck him out of my hand' is absolute....
if no man can pluck us from His hands...then neither can we pluck ourselves ;)
My testimony and that of hundreds of others is proof of that verse in action ;)

God Bless :)

[daveleau]

Do all Baptists agree with this statement?

It's in the Bible, so yes we do believe that. Romans 8:38,39

[eldermike]

Anyone who struggles with this issue: I suggest reading Ephesians until it speaks to you. However you currently view eternal security Ephesians holds the answer for you. You don't need Calvin, in fact I think it's a hindrance to go outside of scripture for such important matters.

I can only imagine how the people of Ephesus, who were so religious and in so much sin reacted to this important teaching. For those that are afraid that teaching eternal security leads people to sin freely, study ancient Ephesus, then read the letter. Understanding eternal security leads us to live Christian lives. Paul had no fear of telling the truth to a culture that was filled with sin. Why should we?

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, Cary

Have you read,

A TREATISE ON THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE,
BY AURELIUS AUGUSTIN, BISHOP OF HIPPO.


Our perseverance is based on the work of Christ and his place at the right hand of the Father, when he falls from the right hand of the Farther we to will also fall in him.


Peace to u,

Bill

[Cary.Melvin]

So are most Baptist like Calvinists, but they don't beleive in the Unconditional Election and the Limited Atonement? But do firmly adhear to Total Depravity, Irresistable Grace and Perseverance of the Saints?

[Andyman_1970]

So are most Baptist like Calvinists, but they don't beleive in the Unconditional Election and the Limited Atonement? But do firmly adhear to Total Depravity, Irresistable Grace and Perseverance of the Saints?

Not this Baptist....

[Gwenyfur]

So are most Baptist like Calvinists, but they don't beleive in the Unconditional Election and the Limited Atonement? But do firmly adhear to Total Depravity, Irresistable Grace and Perseverance of the Saints?
Perserverence of the Saints :)

[SonOfThunder]

A friend said there are three types of people, is this right?

1. Those that are dead, that do not believe in God or what Jesus Christ did for them.

2. Those that believe and are saved and indwelt with The Holy Spirit and infilled?

3. Those that "thought" they were saved, pretended, or walked for a while as a Christian and fell away because there was no indwelling Holy Spirit or infilling?

[ZiSunka]

Perserverance of the saints is the only one I believe in...

[Stinker]

http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-top-right.gif http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-by-left.gifOriginally Posted by: Uncle Bud http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-by-right.gifhttp://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-top-right-10.gifNothing can seperate us from God but ourselves. No one can pluck us out of the hand of God, but we can walk away from God.http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-left.gif

Do all Baptists agree with this statement?




I have actually put this to the test without even realizing it.

Here is what I see in retrospect........................
The truly 'born-again' may think they can walk away from God when they become disillusioned.........but they cannot live in the carnal world for very long and will return to God everytime. There is something about this person that people of the world cannot accept, and the carnality of the world is foreign to this born-again person now.

[Smidlee]

Is the Baptist teaching of Eternal Security like the Calvinist view of predestination and election? Which teaches that those that are predestined to salvation would naturaly have an eternal security of salvation. And that faith, good works, and living a righteous life is the affirming evidence to a believer that they are indeed one of the elect.
As far as predestination I believe Mcgee (not a Baptist though) had the best way of putting this: Predestination is simply Jesus Christ started out with 100 sheep he will end with 100 Sheep and not 99. A good shepherd doesn't go around losing sheep. The reason I have eternal security isn't because I'm a smart sheep (I sometimes have to learn thing the hard way) but because I got a Great Shepherd. In Christ I trust alone and not even myself.

[greeker57married]

CARY.MELVIN

So are most Baptist like Calvinists, but they don't beleive in the Unconditional Election and the Limited Atonement? But do firmly adhear to Total Depravity, Irresistable Grace and Perseverance of the Saints?

Most Baptist have Calvinistic leanings. But most Baptist do not believe in unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistable grace. they do believe in perserverance of the saints. But there are some Baptist that believe the T.u.l.i.p or five points of calvinism. Some hold to some of the points but not all. Most conservative Baptist believe in total depravity. Most Baptist are a balance between the Calvinism and Arminianism. Most Baptist believe in free will.

God Bless
Greeker

[mesue]

Do all Baptists agree with this statement?
I can't answer for all Baptists, but my answer is yes, because God said so. He promised me that no one can pluck us from His hand.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I'm not so sure about walking away from God once you are saved. Does anyone truly walk away? If so, were they truly saved in the first place?

[BT]

Do all Baptists agree with this statement?

No


Nothing can seperate us from God but ourselves. No one can pluck us out of the hand of God, but we can walk away from God.

You can not separate yourself from God you can not walk away from God. If you can then you were never His in the first place. (This deals with some of the confusion about apostates. Apostates walk away from the true faith but they were never saved..)

Check it:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

[SonOfThunder]

Bumping this to the front again, I think it was missed..... on the same topic though


A friend said there are three types of people, is this right?

1. Those that are dead, that do not believe in God or what Jesus Christ did for them.

2. Those that believe and are saved and indwelt with The Holy Spirit and infilled?

3. Those that "thought" they were saved, pretended, or walked for a while as a Christian and fell away because there was no indwelling Holy Spirit or infilling?

[GreenEyedLady]

Bumping this to the front again, I think it was missed..... on the same topic though


A friend said there are three types of people, is this right?

1. Those that are dead, that do not believe in God or what Jesus Christ did for them.

2. Those that believe and are saved and indwelt with The Holy Spirit and infilled?

3. Those that "thought" they were saved, pretended, or walked for a while as a Christian and fell away because there was no indwelling Holy Spirit or infilling?

There are only 2 kinds of people. Those who are saved and those who are unsaved. You know in your heart whether or not you have been born again. Its not somthing that you think.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

There are those who ise thier mouth without the heart who are still unsaved. They are claiming salvation with no heart. It is impossible to saved without both parts claiming Christ to be born again.

There are saved people who are backslidden, just like Jonah, God deals with them.
I think too many people get caught up in judging a persons soul by the way they are living thier life. Sometimes it takes a babe in Christ some time to walk in holiness. Sometimes they are not strong enough to battle the flesh and keep that old sinful nature away. The new nature should take over the old sinful nature but we must all remember, the old sinful nature never dies and never goes away until our flesh dies. That old man popps his head up everyonce and a while and we have to beat him down somtimes!

GEL

[Bulldog]

We believe that God can save any body any where and at any time.

So de we. Can and will are two very different words.

[BT]

So de we. Can and will are two very different words.
:amen:

God can save anyone, anytime, anywhere. God will only save those who believe in Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:8-10 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

[MbiaJc]

Do all Baptists agree with this statement?


Absutly not! Even we canot seperate ourselves from God.

Jhn 10:29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn010.html#29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

I am counted in the "no man" number, so I can not walk away from God.

[MikeMcK]

What does the Baptist teaching of Eternal Security mean?


1. Nothing can separate you from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus your Lord.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)
Neither death nor anything that happens after death, or anything that happens while you're living can separate you from God's love. If there were no other verse in the Bible that deals with eternal security, this one covers the base.


2. When you are saved, you are made perfect forever.

For by one offering He [Jesus] hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14)
When Jesus died on the cross, He saved you forever. Jesus offered one sacrifice for sin forever. If you ever lost your salvation, in order for you to be saved again, Jesus would have to die again. By one offering He has perfected forever those who were sanctified.


3. Our Lord always finishes what He begins.

Being confident of this very thing, that He [God] which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)
Let me tell you what the Holy Spirit of God does for your salvation. First, He convicted you of sin. Second, He converted you. And the Convictor and the Converter is also the Completer. If God fails to finish what He's begun God has failed and He cannot fail.


4. You are predestined to be like Jesus.

For whom He [God] did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Romans 8:29)
God saw you before this world was put in space. He saw you repent of your sin and ask Jesus to save you. And when God saw that, not only did He foreknow it, but also He predestinated it. If it is settled in eternity how can it be undone in time?


5. You are in Christ.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
You are in Christ just like Noah was in the ark. The ark was a picture of Jesus and when Noah went into that ark God shut the door. Noah may have fallen down a lot of times in that ark, but he never fell out of it. Your security is not in a place, it is in a Person and His name is Jesus. And if you're in Jesus, you're secure and if you're not in Jesus you're not secure.


6. You already have eternal life.

Heareth My word, and believeth on him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)
Everlasting life is not something you get when you die. Everlasting life is something you get when you receive Jesus. If I have everlasting life, when can it end? Suppose I had it 10 years and it ended. Did I have everlasting life? No, I had a 10-year life. Whatever you have, if you ever lose it, whatever it was it wasn't everlasting.


7. The Lord Jesus Christ is ever interceding for you.

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given Me; for they are Thine. (John 17:9)
Jesus also prayed: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil...Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word" (John 17:15, 20). Say your name in that verse because Jesus prayed for you! Has Jesus ever prayed a prayer that wasn't answered? No, not one (see John 11:42 and Hebrews 7:25).

[JacobHall86]

We do not believe in predestination like the Calvinist. We believe that God can save any body any where and at any time. Its not like God cannot change His mind. He is all merciful and compassionate.
GEL

Alot of the Baptists here are Calvinists.

[PastorJim]

Great post MikeMcK

[holdon]

Alot of the Baptists here are Calvinists.

I always wondered about that. How can a Baptist be a Calvinist, when one of the foundational doctrines in Calvinism is the baptizing of unregenerate infants into the Covenant?

[JacobHall86]

I always wondered about that. How can a Baptist be a Calvinist, when one of the foundational doctrines in Calvinism is the baptizing of unregenerate infants into the Covenant?

What are you talking about?

[holdon]

What are you talking about?

Calvinism.

[JacobHall86]

Calvinism.

Then why did you bring up infant baptism?

[holdon]

Then why did you bring up infant baptism?

I see you're not a Calvinist. For Calvin and his followers, the infants of believers should be baptized. Through this baptism they enter into the Covenant. This clears the way for them to be then recognized by God, so that He will regenerate them. (some Calvinists think the regeneration happens during baptism of the infant). Anyway, it's quite different from the Baptist view and practice.

[JacobHall86]

I see you're not a Calvinist. For Calvin and his followers, the infants of believers should be baptized. Through this baptism they enter into the Covenant. This clears the way for them to be then recognized by God, so that He will regenerate them. (some Calvinists think the regeneration happens during baptism of the infant). Anyway, it's quite different from the Baptist view and practice.

Actually I am a Calvinist, and thats a foreign practice to all the Calvinists I know. It was an old RCC tradition that over time faded away.

[HypoTypoSis]

For Calvin and his followers, the infants of believers should be baptized. Through this baptism they enter into the Covenant.

It would be logical to assume this concept was added after and in support of the negation of free will, i.e. replacing predestination by foreknowledge with predetermined choosing of God.

Thereby meaning it was all God's choice who He wanted to save and man had no hand in deciding whether he desired to be saved solely by accepting Jesus.

We are told God created man in His own image which means we were created with the same free will and free choice that God has. To remove this from man is to negate that which God instilled as an integral part of our makeup.

It would support, also, after the fact, the Universalist beliefs of the Catholics (and neo-liberalist denominations and New Age adherents) that there are those that will be saved though they did not, while in this life, accept Jesus and His saving grace having died before the age of accountability, i.e. free will based acceptance by personal choice.

It would, additionally, support the Universalist beliefs of the Universalists, Unitarians, Catholics, neo-liberalist denominations, New Age adherents, et al of the immortality of the soul for even though they died before acceptance after the age of accountability the soul must still reside somewhere in some state in order to be saved.

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6, "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope...[]...but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."

But we know the scriptures say the dead know nothing, that their (sentient) memories are lost, forgotten; without sentience, i.e. awareness, there can be no life in any state; for awareness to exist in any state, flames or bliss, there must be life and if life in any state then Christ's sacrifice at Calvary becomes moot, null and void for it then simply becomes a matter of where each life resides. Which then makes Jesus a liar when He said,

John 10:10, "...I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

[holdon]

Actually I am a Calvinist, and thats a foreign practice to all the Calvinists I know. It was an old RCC tradition that over time faded away.

Then you don't know many Calvinists.

[MikeMcK]

Then you don't know many Calvinists.

I must not know any Calvinists, either, because I don't know any who believe this.

[eldermike]

I see you're not a Calvinist. For Calvin and his followers, the infants of believers should be baptized. Through this baptism they enter into the Covenant. This clears the way for them to be then recognized by God, so that He will regenerate them. (some Calvinists think the regeneration happens during baptism of the infant). Anyway, it's quite different from the Baptist view and practice.
I believe; Calvin taught that an attack of infant baptisim was essentially an attack on circumcision as he viewed one replacing the other. Early baptists rejected this idea. This is why baptists view Calvinisn from the Tulip perspective and not from his whole body of teaching.

[mlqurgw]

I see you're not a Calvinist. For Calvin and his followers, the infants of believers should be baptized. Through this baptism they enter into the Covenant. This clears the way for them to be then recognized by God, so that He will regenerate them. (some Calvinists think the regeneration happens during baptism of the infant). Anyway, it's quite different from the Baptist view and practice.Holden, you have debated enough Calvinists who are both Baptist and Presbyterian to know there is a difference. The term Calvinist, as it is used most often, covers a lot of views and you know it. It seems you are just trying to stir the pot.

[holdon]

From Calvin's Institutes:
Ch 16
4. There is now no difficulty in seeing wherein the two signs agree, and wherein they differ. The promise, in which we have shown that the power of the signs consists, is one in both—viz. the promise of the paternal favour of God, of forgiveness of sins, and eternal life. And the thing figured is one and the same—viz. regeneration.
17. They seem to think they produce their strongest reason for denying baptism to children, when they allege, that they are as yet unfit, from nonage, to understand the mystery which is there sealed—viz. spiritual regeneration, which is not applicable to earliest infancy. Hence they infer, that children are only to be regarded as sons of Adam until they have attained an age fit for the reception of the second birth. But all this is directly opposed to the truth of God. For if they are to be accounted sons of Adam, they are left in death, since, in Adam, we can do nothing but die. On the contrary, Christ bids them be brought to him. Why so? Because he is life. Therefore, that he may quicken them, he makes them partners with himself; whereas these men would drive them away from Christ, and adjudge them to death."

Ch 17
"For as God, regenerating us in baptism, ingrafts us into the fellowship of his Church, and makes us his by adoption, so we have said that he performs the office of a provident parent, in continually supplying the food by which he may sustain and preserve us in the life to which he has begotten us by his word."

[holdon]

Holden, you have debated enough Calvinists who are both Baptist and Presbyterian to know there is a difference. The term Calvinist, as it is used most often, covers a lot of views and you know it. It seems you are just trying to stir the pot.

Apparently some Baptists don't know what the term Calvinist entails.

[eldermike]

Apparently some Baptists don't know what the term Calvinist entails.
I would also say that a large number of Calvinist don't know what the term means. But again people that hold TULIP views are instantly branded Calvinist. In fact,the term means many things.

[holdon]

I would also say that a large number of Calvinist don't know what the term means. But again people that hold TULIP views are instantly branded Calvinist. In fact,the term means many things.

Indeed. A Calvinist would also be a presbyterian, a covenanter, etc..
Shouldn't we then call those that hold TULIP, a tulip or tulipist? (doesn't sound too good, does it)

[HypoTypoSis]

From Calvin's Institutes:
Ch 16
17. They seem to think they produce their strongest reason for denying baptism to children, when they allege, that they are as yet unfit, from nonage, to understand the mystery which is there sealed—viz. spiritual regeneration, which is not applicable to earliest infancy. Hence they infer, that children are only to be regarded as sons of Adam until they have attained an age fit for the reception of the second birth. But all this is directly opposed to the truth of God. For if they are to be accounted sons of Adam, they are left in death, since, in Adam, we can do nothing but die. On the contrary, Christ bids them be brought to him. Why so? Because he is life. Therefore, that he may quicken them, he makes them partners with himself; whereas these men would drive them away from Christ, and adjudge them to death."


The above reasoning for baptism of children (under the age of accountability):

1...denies the "for whosoever believeth" words of Jesus as they cannot understand therefore they cannot believe.

There exists a glarying contradiction between the two statements of Jesus if infant baptism is to be acknowledged, i.e. 1) the little children passage and 2) the 'whosoever believeth" clause.2...would then take a child from birth in the following progression:

birth --> unsaved -->infant baptism --> accountability/unsaved--> confirmation/saved

or, for those infant baptised that deny at accountability:

birth --> unsaved --> infant baptism/saved --> accountability --> unsaved

3...Also, those that were infant baptized and later rejected at accountability were they ever really saved?

It would seem they were not saved as since by either definition of predestination, i.e.:God knew who would by free will choice choose or God chose w/o the individual's free will choice being the determining factor who would and who would not and for those that would not it would have been moot to call them saved at infant baptism since, in fact, they chose by free will choice to reject salvation when the age of accountablity arrived. 4...Additionally, since those that rejected salvation at accountability/confirmation through an exercise of their free will would, also, throw a hole in the 'no free will for choosing salvation" concept in the sense of the predestination = pre-chosen concept.



5...Finally, if they were saved at infant baptism and later at accountability/confirmation rejected then this would fly in the face of Paul's, "if it were even possible" clause speaking of those would refuse the Gospel after having accepted and tasted of it for he maintained that it was even doubtful that one could refuse after being saved; therefore, the logical assumption there would be that they were never really saved to begin with.

Thus, in conclusion and based on the above, there are, at least, two scripture passages that refute the one that would speak pro for the concept of infant baptism.