Is Christ's love seen in us?

[Stefan Davidovich]

I've been wondering lately as I've been reading posts and submitting posts...is Christ's love evident in my choice of words? Is my zeal a zeal for Stephen or is it zeal for God? All too often I am very zealous for my own sake. All too often Christ's love really has nothing to do with it - all too often Christ's love has very little to do with anything I do.

The following passage means a great deal to me, yet I so quickly forget...

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 (NLT):

Whatever we do, it is because Christ's love controls us. Since we belive that Christ died for everyone, we also believe that we have all died to the old life we used to live. He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live to please themselves. Instead, they will live to please Christ, WHO DIED AND WAS RAISED FOR THEM.

This passage moves me and convicts me...does Christ's love control me whatever I do? Is His love the controlling theme in my life? When I submit posts is it because Christ's love compelled me to? When I defend my pet doctrine (which i do) is it Christ's love compelling me? Or is it pride?

I have to confess that all too often it is the 'inner man' compelling Stephen rather than the love of Christ. The problem: I'm too busy pleasing self.

Like many other posters here, I like to defend truth (as I see it)...sadly, while I fight over words and terminology and definitions - what is truly important is completely neglected. Its telling that the most popular discussions (I am guilty here) are over doctrinal points rather than practical Christian living. It is so easy to get caught up in our fight for truth and forget what its all about: LOVE.

Ultimately it matters little whether we have all our doctrine right...how we've live our lives as Christ followers, however, will matter a great deal.

Whenever I think of Christ's death I am deeply moved. Lately, I have been struck by the power and wonder of these words:

5 But he was wounded and crushed for our sins. He was beaten that we might have peace. He was whipped, and we were healed! 6 All of us have strayed away like sheep. We have left God's paths to follow our own. Yet the LORD laid on him the guilt and sins of us all...10 But it was the LORD's good plan to crush him and fill with grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have a multitude of children, many heirs. He will enjoy a long life, and the LORD's plan will prosper in his hands. 11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied.

Those last words are deeply powerful. When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish in my life and in your life he will be satisfied... When I hear those words I am filled with a desire to see him receive the reward of his suffering in my life and in the lives of others. I truly want my life to please him - I want every moment of my life to be a reward...a reward for his suffering. How strange and yet how awesome the thought!

So what are you and I doing? What is your life? What is my life? I truly don't think God will chastize us for getting our doctrine wrong...I really don't think that will matter a great deal - and how ironic and sad that we (mysefl included) should devote so much time and effort to its defense.

Am I growing in holiness? Am I seeking after righteousness? Have I an ever deepening relationship with the Father? What is my life? These are the questions that we should be asking...it is this that should consume our time and energy.

May it be that God's glory and pleasure would be our chief end!! May we become consumed with this desire: to see the Lamb receive the reward of His suffering!

May God help us.
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Is Christ's love seen in your life? How might that become a practical reality? Any thoughts?

[GreenEyedLady]

Amen.............Good Post!:thumbsup:

[newbeliever02072005]

I've been wondering lately as I've been reading posts and submitting posts...is Christ's love evident in my choice of words? Is my zeal a zeal for Stephen or is it zeal for God? All too often I am very zealous for my own sake. All too often Christ's love really has nothing to do with it - all too often Christ's love has very little to do with anything I do.

The following passage means a great deal to me, yet I so quickly forget...

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 (NLT):



This passage moves me and convicts me...does Christ's love control me whatever I do? Is His love the controlling theme in my life? When I submit posts is it because Christ's love compelled me to? When I defend my pet doctrine (which i do) is it Christ's love compelling me? Or is it pride?

I have to confess that all too often it is the 'inner man' compelling Stephen rather than the love of Christ. The problem: I'm too busy pleasing self.

Like many other posters here, I like to defend truth (as I see it)...sadly, while I fight over words and terminology and definitions - what is truly important is completely neglected. Its telling that the most popular discussions (I am guilty here) are over doctrinal points rather than practical Christian living. It is so easy to get caught up in our fight for truth and forget what its all about: LOVE.

Ultimately it matters little whether we have all our doctrine right...how we've live our lives as Christ followers, however, will matter a great deal.

Whenever I think of Christ's death I am deeply moved. Lately, I have been struck by the power and wonder of these words:



Those last words are deeply powerful. When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish in my life and in your life he will be satisfied... When I hear those words I am filled with a desire to see him receive the reward of his suffering in my life and in the lives of others. I truly want my life to please him - I want every moment of my life to be a reward...a reward for his suffering. How strange and yet how awesome the thought!

So what are you and I doing? What is your life? What is my life? I truly don't think God will chastize us for getting our doctrine wrong...I really don't think that will matter a great deal - and how ironic and sad that we (mysefl included) should devote so much time and effort to its defense.

Am I growing in holiness? Am I seeking after righteousness? Have I an ever deepening relationship with the Father? What is my life? These are the questions that we should be asking...it is this that should consume our time and energy.

May it be that God's glory and pleasure would be our chief end!! May we become consumed with this desire: to see the Lamb receive the reward of His suffering!

May God help us.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Is Christ's love seen in your life? How might that become a practical reality? Any thoughts?

You make some great points. I recently came to the Lord. I know now not to judge like this anymore....but, one of the biggest reasons for me not to go to church was the hypocisy of the people attending. Do christians realize how much they are looked upon by non-believers? If, christians did love our neighbors as Christ does, can you imagine how many souls we can bring to the Lord for Him? This is just so basic to me, I didn't come to the Lord cause someone was knowledgeable in doctrine or the bible. I came to the Lord cause I was reached out to in love and kindness by other christians. I am not bible literate and can not rattle off scripture in an instant. I do know that I want to love God and by doing so I can love my fellow neighbors.

What have you done for God today?


With love,
newbeliever :)

[Stefan Davidovich]

Do christians realize how much they are looked upon by non-believers? If, christians did love our neighbors as Christ does, can you imagine how many souls we can bring to the Lord for Him?



I do believe if we loved our neighbors as Christ did there would be a world shaking revival!!

We are called to be salt and light - that means we should stand out...NOT by our opinions and doctrines, but by the love that is seen everywhere in us: in all we do and say.

Thanks for those posts!

God Bless,

Stephen

[PapaLandShark]

In the spirit of the OP my friends...We can be a light in the darkness but it is the Lord that saves.

[Stefan Davidovich]

In the spirit of the OP my friends...We can be a light in the darkness but it is the Lord that saves.



That shouldn't take anything away from what has been written. The fact that our Lord saves should not in any way reduce our responsibility.

[PapaLandShark]

That shouldn't take anything away from what has been written. The fact that our Lord saves should not in any way reduce our responsibility.

Certainly. I see folks saying "We have to save someone" and I get a touch concerned. Not our gig. Our gig is to walk with Christ. We follow, he Saves.

That our following is a light to all is most definately a concern.

[daveleau]

You make some great points. I recently came to the Lord. I know now not to judge like this anymore....but, one of the biggest reasons for me not to go to church was the hypocisy of the people attending. Do christians realize how much they are looked upon by non-believers? If, christians did love our neighbors as Christ does, can you imagine how many souls we can bring to the Lord for Him? This is just so basic to me, I didn't come to the Lord cause someone was knowledgeable in doctrine or the bible. I came to the Lord cause I was reached out to in love and kindness by other christians. I am not bible literate and can not rattle off scripture in an instant. I do know that I want to love God and by doing so I can love my fellow neighbors.

What have you done for God today?


With love,
newbeliever :)

Superbly stated! SO MANY Christians pray for salvation and continue to live as they lived before. Christianity is a side-bar at the table of their lives. This hurts the Christian faith so much when it comes to helping others find Christ.

[Ginny]

Good post, stefan.....I feel that there are a few subforums wihtin Christian Forums that I need to remove my self from. There are a few that I go to that are "anyone allowed" and I can't believe it but I have been unofficially warned once or twice since I joined. Anyhow, non-Christians and atheists and heavy liberals bring out the worst in me...it is no secret. I definitely do not walk the walk 100% of the time on these forums.

Thank you for the indirect reminder.

Is anyone with me? I need tostay in the safe place called Baptist forums. LOL :)

[Smidlee]

Ultimately it matters little whether we have all our doctrine right...how we've live our lives as Christ followers, however, will matter a great deal. While I agree you that love is very important and I enjoyed your post. Yet I feel it needs to mention doctrine is very important and it does matter a lot we keep to true doctrine. so while I see you put use ;"all our doctrine" yet doctrine shouldn't be down played. In Revelation we find in Ephesians Jesus praised this church for keeping to true doctrine yet He reveal they have lefted their first love. He also praise them for hating the deeds and doctrine of Nicolaitanes then we found almost the opposide in Pergamos where they accept wrong doctrine including Nicolaitanes. Also in the book of 2 John he wrote to a widow that truth (doctrine) is just as important as love. "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, recieve him not into your house, neither bid him God speed.

So my point both truth and love is important so we should have a balance between the two. While I also find myself not loving Christ like I should yet I also want to hold strong to truth yet with meekness. As being harmless as a dove but wise as a serpent.

Is Christ's love seen in your life? How might that become a practical reality? Any thoughts? While I'm usually strong in holding sound doctrine I realize I'm at times, like those in Ephesus, I lefted my first Love.

P.S.I've notice Jesus talk about the Love of God to Nicodemus (most Pharisee didn't have much love ) and had to be born again while the woman at the well Jesus said you must worship God in Spirit and Truth . (the woman didn't have much truth)

[Vasya Davidovich]

While I agree you that love is very important and I enjoyed your post. Yet I feel it needs to mention doctrine is very important and it does matter a lot we keep to true doctrine. so while I see you put use ;"all our doctrine" yet doctrine shouldn't be down played. In Revelation we find in Ephesians Jesus praised this church for keeping to true doctrine yet He reveal they have lefted their first love. He also praise them for hating the deeds and doctrine of Nicolaitanes then we found almost the opposide in Pergamos where they accept wrong doctrine including Nicolaitanes. Also in the book of 2 John he wrote to a widow that truth (doctrine) is just as important as love. "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, recieve him not into your house, neither bid him God speed.

So my point both truth and love is important so we should have a balance between the two. While I also find myself not loving Christ like I should yet I also want to hold strong to truth yet with meekness. As being harmless as a dove but wise as a serpent.
While I'm usually strong in holding sound doctrine I realize I'm at times, like those in Ephesus, I lefted my first Love.

P.S.I've notice Jesus talk about the Love of God to Nicodemus (most Pharisee didn't have much love ) and had to be born again while the woman at the well Jesus said you must worship God in Spirit and Truth . (the woman didn't have much truth)
I dropped in to see if my brother was around....

...but no, he is not.

Stefan:

I am not sure how much I can say without violating the rules of this forum. But it seems to be that Smidlee makes a very good point. The fact that Christ mentions heresies (ie. false doctrines) by name indicates to me just how much He takes them to heart.

Honestly, I would far rather meet an atheist who still believed in Truth than a believer who didn't, and tried to get by on a wishy-washy love. I have much more respect for a die-hard Baptist or a die-hard Catholic or a die-hard Charismatic who believed that his (or her) path was the right path to God, than someone who excused doctrine in the name of love.

Oh, I grant you that we need to live what we believe... but what we believe matters. If it didn't, Christ wouldn't have spent so much time preaching. Ditto Paul. Ditto the other writers of the NT.

I think it telling that the early Christians were followers of "The Way." I don't believe in a multiplicity of ways. I believe in Truth. And I think that debate - done in love - comes out of that zeal for Truth, out of that zeal to follow in the Way, and should be there. We should not let error have its way. We have to speak out.

Humbly,
Vasya.

[seebs]

The hard part comes when two of us come to be unable to resolve our disagreements. Does truth matter? Yes. Does charity matter? Yes. Which matters more?

1 Corinthians 13:2

If charity is in conflict with some other virtue, charity wins.

Jesus did speak about the importance of correct doctrine. He also spoke of mercy:

Luke 12:47-48

It is one thing to knowingly turn from truth; another to fail to understand it, while earnestly seeking.

[mesue]

Is Christ's love seen in your life? How might that become a practical reality? Any thoughts?

It depends on who's looking and what perspective they have. My tone is very different between Pharisaical people and non-believers, between hypocrites and the down hearted. If it is someone preaching false doctrine, I get defensive of my faith and God's word. I don't think that it is wrong. If I sound "Snippy" well, so be it.
People preach love, kindness and charity as if that is all God is about. He is also the God of rigtheousness and judgement. Scripture is the final authority between believers.
I have had non-believers tell me that they like hearing Scripture from me because I don't slap them with it and I give them something they can use. I say that to God's glory because they're His words and not mine. It is Him that softens the heart of the hearer, not me.
Truth mattered to Jesus too. I would hate to hear "Woe unto you mesue ..." for teaching false doctrines, or not sticking up for what is right. I would rather have man mad at me than God. God won't let His word return unto Him void.

Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Ph'p:4:12: I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
Ph'p:4:13: I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

[Stefan Davidovich]

Thanks everyone for the posts...some very good points.

So my point both truth and love is important so we should have a balance between the two. While I also find myself not loving Christ like I should yet I also want to hold strong to truth yet with meekness. As being harmless as a dove but wise as a serpent.



Very good point.


I have much more respect for a die-hard Baptist or a die-hard Catholic or a die-hard Charismatic who believed that his (or her) path was the right path to God, than someone who excused doctrine in the name of love.


I'm not sure where i stand on that anymore. Too often the die-hards (as I have been) are more pharisaical than Christ-like. Without love everything else is in vain...that is what we often forget in our zeal for doctrine. Too often we are known for our doctrine rather than our love.

No doubt balance is desperately needed here. We must be sure to stand for truth in love. The trouble is how?

What doctrines are we willing to fight over? How much energy is devoted to doctrinal debate vs holy living?

For myself I seek truth but ultimately by search for truth is a search for God - to know Him intimately. I want His love to be the controlling factor in ALL i do. I believe it is possible to defend truth in love...praying for the opposition is one helpful means to this end.

As one who seeks to defend the truth from the pulpit I have been trying to learn how to do it in love...to get rid of all anger and bitterness and cynicism and criticism...getting to know God's heart seems to be the 'trick' here. However, we can not get to know God via doctrine. Knowing about Him is quite different from knowing Him. As I seek to know God's heart He changes mine...there need not be a dichotomy - God is LOVE and God is TRUTH.

It's the human emphasis and delivery that gets us in trouble. I would argue that if Christ's love (and that is a very key distinction - His love is not a wishy washy love) is the controlling theme, then truth and all else will follow from that.

Any other thoughts on this?

Thanks Mesue and others for the feedback.

[Stefan Davidovich]

Ginny,

thanks for your post! I struggle with the very thing you have expressed. Certain doctrines anger me and in my anger I sometimes say the wrong things.

Fighting for truth in love is most definitely a challenge for all of us.

[elizabethevangeline]

[QUOTE]I'm not sure where i stand on that anymore. Too often the die-hards (as I have been) are more pharisaical than Christ-like. Without love everything else is in vain...that is what we often forget in our zeal for doctrine. Too often we are known for our doctrine rather than our love.

Love without doctrine has no foundation, no anchor, no reference point,

but doctrine without love has no meaning, serves no purpose but our own, doesn't lead to Christ but to ourselves.



No doubt balance is desperately needed here. We must be sure to stand for truth in love. The trouble is how?

What doctrines are we willing to fight over? How much energy is devoted to doctrinal debate vs holy living?

For myself I seek truth but ultimately by search for truth is a search for God - to know Him intimately. I want His love to be the controlling factor in ALL i do. I believe it is possible to defend truth in love...praying for the opposition is one helpful means to this end.

As one who seeks to defend the truth from the pulpit I have been trying to learn how to do it in love...to get rid of all anger and bitterness and cynicism and criticism...getting to know God's heart seems to be the 'trick' here. However, we can not get to know God via doctrine. Knowing about Him is quite different from knowing Him. As I seek to know God's heart He changes mine...there need not be a dichotomy - God is LOVE and God is TRUTH.

It's the human emphasis and delivery that gets us in trouble. I would argue that if Christ's love (and that is a very key distinction - His love is not a wishy washy love) is the controlling theme, then truth and all else will follow from that.

Any other thoughts on this?



How to balance is the question! :) I'm afraid I'm still working on that.

I think I would quesiton my motives...am I arguing this point at this time with this person because of concern for their soul or because I want to be right?

If I say I'm concerned for their soul...do I weep for them? do I listen and try to learn who they are so I can understand what makes them the way they are, the way they think?

I like the story of the woman at the well...Jesus communicated he knew who she was and was interested in her as he spoke truth to her.

[Apples of Gold]

Amen! Wonderful post!

[kayanne]

I'm not sure where i stand on that anymore. Too often the die-hards (as I have been) are more pharisaical than Christ-like. Without love everything else is in vain...that is what we often forget in our zeal for doctrine. Too often we are known for our doctrine rather than our love.

Stefan, I really like your original post and your thoughts throughout it. I've been going through a lot of changes over the last year or two, from a "die-hard" as you call it, to someone who now realizes that there is a lot of debateable doctrine that I can't be 100% certain on.

But I CAN be 100% certain that God wants me to be loving, kind, serving others, helping the needy. These things really aren't debateable.

I'm not at all saying that doctrine doesn't matter. But it seems to me that, for whatever reason, God has left a lot of things a little "fuzzy" in Scripture. Biblical scholars, theologians, and Christians in general will always find things in Scripture to disagree about (baptism, OSAS, pre/post/mid rapture, tongues, women preachers, etc etc). In recent months I realized that I was so frustrated and exhausted of trying to figure such things out, that I had lost the joy of my Christian faith. I've actually felt anger at God for making the Bible so unclear on these debateable issues. Christians allow these things to divide them and cause such hostility. It was all just bringing me down as a Christian.

The greatest command is to love God with all my heart, mind, and strength; second is to love my neighbor as myself. Love is an action, and even though I'll never understand a lot of things in the Bible (now we see through a glass, dimly), I do know what it means to put love into action by my deeds toward others. I think that's what God wants me to focus on.

[Stefan Davidovich]

Amen! Kayanne thank you for that.

God bless you.