need help...

[PACKY]

I was raised a Presby. but born into a Lutheran family ( go figure) But I find the church ( presby.) to be Liberal, I was attracted to the catholic Church due to their beleifs in the sanctity of life and the claim that it is the one universal church, Yet the luthern church is attractive to me as well as it allows you to reason.. can you offer some guidance or suggestions?

[KagomeShuko]

All I can say is visit the different churches, read about their beliefs, and pray. If you want to be able to reason, I suggest ELCA, but it may not be where you fit. I pray you find yourself a great church home.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[PACKY]

what are the different synods? I live in wisconsin ( german heritage of course!!) does that mean that I would be in the Wisconsin synod?

[KagomeShuko]

what are the different synods? I live in wisconsin ( german heritage of course!!) does that mean that I would be in the Wisconsin synod?
ELCA - Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
LCMS - Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
WELS - Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
ELS - Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Just because you are in Wisconsin doesn't mean you'd be in the WELS. There are churches that are parts of the different synods all over the united states. The ELCA is the most liberal (ordains women, open communion). You'd just have to find a church affliated with the different synods.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[PACKY]

Can someone explain what the refromations that luther made? how did he change from the catholic church? what was the main things that he strived to change? Is the luthern church much like the catholic church?
THANKS!

[Phoebe]

A main difference between the Catholic and Lutheran Churches is that Lutherans believe we are saved by grace through faith, not by works. There is nothing that man can do on his own part to gain salvation. We can not, accept Jesus as Savior, believe in Him, or anything else without the active work of the Holy Spirit. We can only reject our salvation or God's saving grace. (think of it as a coin with one side, not two)

[SPALATIN]

Can someone explain what the refromations that luther made? how did he change from the catholic church? what was the main things that he strived to change? Is the luthern church much like the catholic church?
THANKS!


Phoebe is correct on much of it. He also questioned the power and primacy of the Pope. In many respects we are the Evangelical Catholic church. We preach the proper distinction between Law and Gospel. We teach the real presence of Christ in the sacrament of the Altar. We also only subscribe to 3 sacraments. Baptism, Holy Communion and Confession/Absolution or the Office of the Keys.

[PACKY]

A main difference between the Catholic and Lutheran Churches is that Lutherans believe we are saved by grace through faith, not by works. There is nothing that man can do on his own part to gain salvation. We can not, accept Jesus as Savior, believe in Him, or anything else without the active work of the Holy Spirit. We can only reject our salvation or God's saving grace. (think of it as a coin with one side, not two)

So as long as we beleive in God and Christ and their teachings we are heaven bound? however if we doubt this faith then we will not be going to heaven?

[PACKY]

Can anyone else offer me some more Insight on the Lutheran Faith? and the main beleifs?

[KagomeShuko]

So as long as we beleive in God and Christ and their teachings we are heaven bound? however if we doubt this faith then we will not be going to heaven?
The teachings are not part of our salvation. Salvation is by God's grace alone. But, they are what we believe. We also believe that there are true Christians in every other denomination as well. We just don't agree with a lot of their teachings.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[PACKY]

can anyone provide me with links that have credible and accurate information?

[Protoevangel]

http://bookofconcord.org/

[revjpw]

If the sanctity of human life is an issue with you, then you do not want to go with the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) congregations. They not only support but also fund (through their insurance carrier) abortion on demand. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (LCMS & WELS/ELS) are strictly anti-abortion.

You also mentioned reason. We hold that human reason is inherently flawed because of the Fall of Mankind into sin. We cannot rely on our own reason to comprehend the things of God. Isaiah 55:8, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD."

Also, Luther's Small Catechism (which can be found on-line) teaches in the Third Article of the Creed, "I believe that I cannot by my own strength or reason, believe in Jesus Christ my Lord or come to Him. But the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightens me with His gifts, sanctifies me, and keeps me in the one true faith.... This is most certainly true."

We are saved by Grace alone, through Faith alone, on account of Christ alone.
Praise God!

[PACKY]

http://bookofconcord.org/

THANKS for the link!! this site helped out a lot

[pastel]

May God bless. :pray:

[SemStudent08]

Can anyone else offer me some more Insight on the Lutheran Faith? and the main beleifs?

Ok, before I get to far into all of this I would reccomend you read The Book of Concord, Luther's Small Catechism, and The Augsburg Confessions. I will be drawing most of the following from those sources as well as class notes from my Systematics course.

Sola Gratia. Sola Fide. Sola Scriptura.
Grace Alone. Faith Alone. Scripture Alone.

We are saved by Grace Alone... - not by any action/work/decision on our part (I believe I cannot by my own power or understanding believe in Jesus Christ or come to Him).

Through Faith Alone. - What is necessary on our part is the response of faith that follows necessairly from the action of God's grace. What is faith? Faith is trust in God's plan for our Salvation.

Based upon Scripture Alone. - Scripture is the only norm of doctrine and life. The only true standard by which teachings and doctrines can be judged.

[SemStudent08]

If the sanctity of human life is an issue with you, then you do not want to go with the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) congregations. They not only support but also fund (through their insurance carrier) abortion on demand. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (LCMS & WELS/ELS) are strictly anti-abortion.

This is a rather blanket statement that, I feel, is just a bit unfair. The ELCA does not have a strictly pro-choice agenda, nor does Thrivent Financial for Lutherans. As a matter of fact the ELCA recognizes that this issue is a difficult one:

2. We express ourselves on the abortion issue and its implications because:

a. We seek to be faithful disciples of our Living Lord, desirous of saying and doing that which we believe God would have us say and do;
b. We value each human life as unique, distinctive, and worthy of dignity and respect;
c. We deplore the tendency to turn to abortion as a quick and easy solution to an unplanned or a problem pregnancy;
d. We recognize that abortion is a multi-faceted issue which concerns the family and the community and that the interests of women are paramount;
e. We see that the abortion issue includes biological, psychological, humanitarian, social, ethical, political, and theological dimensions. It is far larger than merely a medical, a legal, or a personal choice issue;
f. We regret that the burdens of abortion and abortion decision making fall unduly heavily upon the poor, minority group persons, and persons otherwise disadvantaged, who are pressured in their decisions by economic constraints;
g. We encourage congregations to meet the overwhelming need for open discussion of the complexities of the abortion issue. Thereby the members can help one another become informed about the values intrinsic to the several sides of the issue.


- From the Report of the Abortion Task Force which was adpoted by 2/3s majority at the ELCA Churchwide Assembly, 1991 (the text of the motion being in the link below)


As a matter of fact, if you read the ELCA Social Statement on Abortion (http://www.elca.org/socialstatements/abortion/) you will see that the ELCA treats this as a very important matter and sides as much as possible against abortion as a "quick and easy solution". But also recognizes that there are instances where an abortion may be necessary and understandable (when the life of the mother is at stake, and incest/rape). It also places a great deal of emphasis on educating people on other options (like adoption) and the risks/dangers of abortions.

[revjpw]

This is a rather blanket statement that, I feel, is just a bit unfair. The ELCA does not have a strictly pro-choice agenda, nor does Thrivent Financial for Lutherans. As a matter of fact the ELCA recognizes that this issue is a difficult one

Your post kind of proves my point.

The bottom line is that abortion on demand is a violation of the 5th Commandment. The insurance carrier that the ELCA uses for its employees (and it's NOT Thrivent) funds abortion on demand. An ELCA pastor personally told me that the ELCA does not consider abortion a violation of the 5th Commandment because "abortion was not even a concept when the 10 Commandments were written." (Who does he think wrote them in the first place??)

It is true that there are medical cases where abortion is necessary (tubal pregnancies, etc.), but it is not to be tolerated simply as a means of birth control. That is murder, plain and simple.

It's really not all that difficult.

[SemStudent08]

Your post kind of proves my point.

The bottom line is that abortion on demand is a violation of the 5th Commandment. The insurance carrier that the ELCA uses for its employees (and it's NOT Thrivent) funds abortion on demand. An ELCA pastor personally told me that the ELCA does not consider abortion a violation of the 5th Commandment because "abortion was not even a concept when the 10 Commandments were written." (Who does he think wrote them in the first place??)

I need to research this more before I can reply, so give me some time on that one. As for the Pastor, I can say that there does exist within the ELCA a wide divergence of opinions on certain subjects. And I, for one, believe that the best answers come from studing Scripture and discussing how we interpret it differently with people who have different opinions. Room for diversity is a good thing, as long as the basis for the discussion is the same (Scripture).

It is true that there are medical cases where abortion is necessary (tubal pregnancies, etc.), but it is not to be tolerated simply as a means of birth control. That is murder, plain and simple.

It's really not all that difficult.

You didn't read the link I included if this is your view of the ELCA's policy. The ELCA sides against abortion as "a quick and easy solution to an unplanned or a problem pregnancy" that quote was even in my post! By all means debate with me, disagree with me, but ascribe to me the opinions I claim to have, not the ones YOU claim I have. But I do thank you for the discussion! I enjoy having faith-filled and positive discussions with people of different (whether slightly or majorly) views.

[KagomeShuko]

Your post kind of proves my point.

The bottom line is that abortion on demand is a violation of the 5th Commandment. The insurance carrier that the ELCA uses for its employees (and it's NOT Thrivent) funds abortion on demand. An ELCA pastor personally told me that the ELCA does not consider abortion a violation of the 5th Commandment because "abortion was not even a concept when the 10 Commandments were written." (Who does he think wrote them in the first place??)

It is true that there are medical cases where abortion is necessary (tubal pregnancies, etc.), but it is not to be tolerated simply as a means of birth control. That is murder, plain and simple.

It's really not all that difficult.
I cannot comment on the insurance thing, as I do not know what insurance ELCA uses.

However, please do not state things that are not facts. SemStudent08 posted from the ELCA website - the specific report. Do not judge the ELCA by ONE person who told you something. I am sure I could find people in ANY branch of Lutheranism or ANY other denomination, and I could easily judge the whole group of people on that one person just as you are doing here. "The one pastor told me" is NOT a valid argument.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[AngelusSax]

I am sure I could find people in ANY branch of Lutheranism or ANY other denomination, and I could easily judge the whole group of people on that one person just as you are doing here.

Indeed, and I will prove your point for you. One LCMS Lutheran once told me (no one on these forums) that a stillborn baby was sent to hell because it was not Baptized. Now, I can do one of two things... think that the LCMS holds this position that Baptism is necessary even for stillborns, or I can keep in mind it was one person who may be terribly misinformed of their own synod's beliefs... or maybe their beliefs are not in agreeance with the synod at all (that may count as three things for me to consider, I suppose).

[revjpw]

I cannot comment on the insurance thing, as I do not know what insurance ELCA uses.

This is a well known fact.

However, please do not state things that are not facts. SemStudent08 posted from the ELCA website - the specific report. Do not judge the ELCA by ONE person who told you something. I am sure I could find people in ANY branch of Lutheranism or ANY other denomination, and I could easily judge the whole group of people on that one person just as you are doing here. "The one pastor told me" is NOT a valid argument.

I quoted what one pastor told me, but it's not the only place it has been heard from. What I stated is factual, but may not be well known.

I do not mean to put down or belittle, and if anyone takes it as such, my sincere apologies. I am simply saddened by the state of our brothers and sisters in the ELCA and the direction away from the Confessional stance of Evangelical Lutheranism that their church body has taken.:cry:
The LCMS has its problems as well.:sigh: But not to the extant that the ELCA has.

Let us continue to pray together for that Day when all divisions will cease.:prayer:

[Lutherrunner]

I do not mean to put down or belittle, and if anyone takes it as such, my sincere apologies.


then why do you keep slamming the ELCA.......you make it to where I don't even want to come to the Lutheran forum anymore.......

[SemStudent08]

This is a well known fact.

So well known I had to shift through several layers of pdf files and other webpages to find any reference to it at all. Ok, yes one of the PPOs the ELCA works with (it works with several) is Blue Cross Blue Shield which does cover abortions. Oddly enough Blue Cross Blue Shield covers over 88 million Americans. Why? Because it is one of the most comprehensive, user friendly, and reliable Healthcare providers. So good in fact that 54% of all federal employees are covered by it, as well as most of the nation's Universities. The ELCA wants to provide the best heathcare it can to its employees located throughout the nation, and I cannot fault them for that. If getting that means letting people have the option for abortion, well that may be, I just hope and pray that such individuals would be guided by the ELCA Social Statement on Abortion (http://www.elca.org/socialstatements/abortion/), since they are, after all ELCA employees.

On a different note I tried several times to check out the LCMS HealthCare plan, provided through LCMS Worker Benefits Plan at www.wbp.org (http://www.wbp.org) if I am not mistaken, but I cannot reach the site (don't know if its just me or their site). Upon contemplating this though, it might be better that I not, perhaps even the Spirit bonking me on the head again (I swear I've got lumps a foot high). I would rather not go looking for something to use to attack another Church, because I do, indeed "pray for that Day when all divisions will cease." And would rather not throw stones.

One final note, in case you didn't check the title of my post, do so now. I may check in on this discussion some more, and may very well go back on what I said in this header. But right now I'm too tired and have too much schoolwork to do to invest as much time as I have been in this discussion. You're all great, and I love you all! See you in the one-liner posts under relaxation!