question?

[outcast4christ]

why is it that episcopalians do not like to accept new ideas?

i am called into the church in some aspect. i thought it was ordained ministry (and it still could be), but it is stronger than that. i have this very strong feeling that i am supposed to be a warrior for God in this church. however, i also feel that the only support i'm getting is coming from outside the episcopal church(and only from a very few people that are close enough to me that i can talk about it). can anyone help in this?

[PaladinValer]

What do you mean by "Warrior for God?"

[Inside Edge]

Some clarification would be good. As PV said, what do you mean by a "Warrior for God." What are you trying to "do" for or within the Episcopal church? How do you mean, "the only help you're getting is from outside the Church?"

[julian the apostate]

outcast4christ<<


why is it that episcopalians do not like to accept new ideas?


now there is something you dont hear to often
(unless it is has to do with the hymnal)

[outcast4christ]

What do you mean by "Warrior for God?"

what i meant when i said "warrior for God" was more spiritually based, like fighting against the powers of evil and bringing the church back to God.

Some clarification would be good. As PV said, what do you mean by a "Warrior for God." What are you trying to "do" for or within the Episcopal church? How do you mean, "the only help you're getting is from outside the Church?"

i feel that God wants me to shepherd his people back to him. i don't know how many church are like st. stephen's, but this is third one i've been in that is having serious spiritual problems. what i meant by "outside the church" was out side the episcopal church. i've been going to an assembly of God church for their worship service and have really felt the spirit moving in me. hope this answered some questions. just let me know if you have any more.

[PaladinValer]

There are many ways to fulfill the Great Commission. It is incorrect to assume that it can only be done through "evangelization" or by being a "prayer warrior," which is something completely foreign.

To quote St. Francis of Assisi, "preach the Gospel always; use words only when necessary." Sermons, pamphlets, books, and witnessing aren't our only tools. Our actions can speak just as loud (and sometimes louder) than our words. Deed is just as important (simply read the Catholic Letter of St. James!) as word of faith; one without the other is utterly worthless.

Get involved in a soup kitchen. Start a drive to donate money to a homeless shelter. These are ways to spread the Gospel not with words but through act and deed. It is through these ways that people can see Jesus within us; that we not just proclaim the Gospel, but live the Gospel.

[Wigglesworth]

what i meant when i said "warrior for God" was more spiritually based, like fighting against the powers of evil and bringing the church back to God.

. . .

i don't know how many church are like st. stephen's, but this is third one i've been in that is having serious spiritual problems. what i meant by "outside the church" was out side the episcopal church. i've been going to an assembly of God church for their worship service and have really felt the spirit moving in me. hope this answered some questions. just let me know if you have any more.

Why not think about inviting a couple Episcopalians and a couple people from the Assembly of God to a prayer meeting at a neutral place like your home or one of theirs? Refining fire spreads that way.

:cool:

[Iron Sun 254]

Be careful that you're not judging other people's faith just because they aren't moved the way you are. You say you feel called to be a "warrior for God"...maybe they're not being called the same way and what you're esentially asking them to do is feel something they're not feeling. That's not going to happen.

[Inside Edge]

what i meant when i said "warrior for God" was more spiritually based, like fighting against the powers of evil and bringing the church back to God....i feel that God wants me to shepherd his people back to him. i don't know how many church are like st. stephen's, but this is third one i've been in that is having serious spiritual problems.
Well, a lot depends on what you mean by "spiritual problems." You see, right from the get-go, your position is that there is something wrong with the churches you've attended. As Iron Sun pointed out, how can you be so sure they have "serious spiritual problems" as opposed to simply not being called in the same fashion you feel? How do you know you're not simply coming across as someone who's only out to try and bend others to do things the way you think they should be done?

For example, there is a good reason why there's an Episcopal Church and a Baptist Church; or, a Catholic Church and a Pentecostal Church. If someone who identified more with a Pentecostal style of worship and evangelism acted like my Church has serious spiritual problems because we weren't moved the same way he or she was, I'd find that pretty offensive.

[gtsecc]

Don't confuse emotion with genuine movement of the spirit.

[AveMaria]

I'd have to more of less second what everyone else has said.

You haven't mentioned specifics, so it's hard for me to give any constructive feedback.

For example, you said your current church (plus your previous two) had serious spiritual problems, and you feel called to bring them back to God.

Depending on what you mean by serious spiritual problems, the notion that you or anyone else is supposed to be sheparding them back to God could come across as an insult or an offense.

What's the issue here? Is the theology bad? Churches full of heretics? Music not to your liking? Church service boring?

There's a tremendous difference between your average Episcopal service and Assembly of God service, and that's where I'm having difficulty.

As someone (InsideEdge, I think) pointed out, we have denomenations for a reason - different folks respond to different types of worship and even among theologians, there's a range of opinion on what is or isn't a salvation issue.

I hope we're not coming across as rude, because I know that isn't our intent - if you could give more details as to what you mean, perhaps we could be more helpful?

[gtsecc]

Ask yourself, "What Would Jesus Do?"
He would probably go in and turn over the pews and break things.
But, you saw what they did to him after that.
So, take your chances.

[gitlance]

Don't confuse emotion with genuine movement of the spirit.

I second that...

[Albion]

why is it that episcopalians do not like to accept new ideas?

i am called into the church in some aspect. i thought it was ordained ministry (and it still could be), but it is stronger than that. i have this very strong feeling that i am supposed to be a warrior for God in this church. however, i also feel that the only support i'm getting is coming from outside the episcopal church(and only from a very few people that are close enough to me that i can talk about it). can anyone help in this?

I think I get the "warrior" concept, but I don't quite follow the "do not like to accept new ideas" part. What or which are these new ideas and who didn't accept them? Was it the average Episcopalian or was it the clergy responding to some proposal you had made? I, along with everyone else here, would like to give good advice but we're just not sure what the situation is that you are facing.

[julian the apostate]

gtsecc<Ask yourself, "What Would Jesus Do?"
He would probably go in and turn over the pews and break things.
But, you saw what they did to him after that.
So, take your chances.


that was funny

[outcast4christ]

to answer some of your questions as to the church, yes there are heretics, but more at my current church. i also heavily feel a very powerful, almost overpowering, evil presence just walking into the office, sanctuary, parish hall. the grounds are holy but the people are not. our priest just addressed an issue on sunday morning that he sees is a problem. he said that as a community that is supposed to feel welcoming, he knows that is not happening. our former priest visited us on easter, and was welcomed by a very few. we had some newcomers, father and son, and the yd and i were the only ones that said anything to them.

i'm not questioning anyone's faith. i just feel that these people are not being very Godly. as far as the new ideas goes(mainly in my current church), the lady i talked to about starting a contemporary service said that she feels there would not be any support. i was thinking that there would be support, if not from the older congregants, then from the younger ones.

on a side note, in a previous post i mentioned the yd having some attacks thrown at her, spiritually speaking. those have grown to the point that she has decided to leave the church and get out of town. i don't blame her for it. she was getting physically ill by all of it. we went to a college/careers service last night that we could definently feel a spirit of peace in the room. not just us but everyone else around could feel it too. she said that it confirmed her decision and she is going to leave, but not without saying anything to the kids. i ask for your prayers as she moves forward with this decision.

hope this answered some of your questions.

love ya'

[gtsecc]

LOL, come to my parish and request a contemporary service. Oh man, I am LOL just thinking about it. You would see some spiritual warfare that is for sure! Oh man! I would love to see the altar guild's reaction. hee hee

[Albion]

to answer some of your questions as to the church, yes there are heretics, but more at my current church. i also heavily feel a very powerful, almost overpowering, evil presence just walking into the office, sanctuary, parish hall. the grounds are holy but the people are not. our priest just addressed an issue on sunday morning that he sees is a problem. he said that as a community that is supposed to feel welcoming, he knows that is not happening. our former priest visited us on easter, and was welcomed by a very few. we had some newcomers, father and son, and the yd and i were the only ones that said anything to them.

i'm not questioning anyone's faith. i just feel that these people are not being very Godly. as far as the new ideas goes(mainly in my current church), the lady i talked to about starting a contemporary service said that she feels there would not be any support. i was thinking that there would be support, if not from the older congregants, then from the younger ones.

on a side note, in a previous post i mentioned the yd having some attacks thrown at her, spiritually speaking. those have grown to the point that she has decided to leave the church and get out of town. i don't blame her for it. she was getting physically ill by all of it. we went to a college/careers service last night that we could definently feel a spirit of peace in the room. not just us but everyone else around could feel it too. she said that it confirmed her decision and she is going to leave, but not without saying anything to the kids. i ask for your prayers as she moves forward with this decision.

hope this answered some of your questions.

love ya'


'preciate it!

You started us off with "why is it that episcopalians do not like to accept new ideas?"

The idea I have is that "Episcopalians" as a category are not heretics, against new ideas, or evil. Certain individuals no doubt are all those things, but then again, what you describe could just as well happen in a dozen other denominations.

You may just need to find the parish for you.

[AveMaria]

i'm not questioning anyone's faith. i just feel that these people are not being very Godly. as far as the new ideas goes(mainly in my current church), the lady i talked to about starting a contemporary service said that she feels there would not be any support. i was thinking that there would be support, if not from the older congregants, then from the younger ones.



First off, thank you for all the clarifications.

Contemporary services don't seem to do as well in Episcopal parishes as in others, from what I've seen. I think this is for a variety of reasons, but there's no need to rehash that dead horse.

I would caution against assuming there would automatically be support from the younger generation. At my current and previous parish the young adults tended to flock to the Rite I and Complines services!

It sounds like the problems you're seening can be broken down as such:

* unfriendliness towards newcomers
* that you perceive an evil presence (I'm not sure if you were speaking metaphorically or if you genuinely believe there is an evil presence at the parish. Something to discuss with your Rector, I'd say).
* lack of interest or perceived interest in a contemporary service.

I'd say the lack of friendliness towards newcomers can be easily fixed - do you have a Greeters ministry or anything similar?

[Colabomb]

outcast4christ<<


why is it that episcopalians do not like to accept new ideas?


now there is something you dont hear to often
(unless it is has to do with the hymnal)
hehe....

[benedictine]

I would caution against assuming there would automatically be support from the younger generation. At my current and previous parish the young adults tended to flock to the Rite I and Complines services!



My youth Director doesn't understand this. Forget the guitars and praise songs, give me an organ(and Timothy to play it) and the Hymnal any day of the week.

[Colabomb]

My youth Director doesn't understand this. Forget the guitars and praise songs, give me an organ(and Timothy to play it) and the Hymnal any day of the week.
My Brother and I are the youth at my church lol.

[Inside Edge]

Thanks outcast for giving more detail.

Unfriendliness is a common ailment in many churches - especially well-entrenched congregations which have remained static for a long time - cliques form, and are hard to crack. As other have mentioned, the next thing you should do is meet with the Rector privately and talk to him about it. And either have ideas to help change it, or be very open to suggestion he/she makes to help change it.

And now, another request for clarification: what do you mean by "evil presence?" Just the unfriendliness, or is there more to it? What is it the other people don't like about your youth director's ideas and yours?

And a contemporary, Assembly-of-Christ type service would go over well in very few Anglican/Episcopal churches. Again, it comes down to denominations existing for a reason: the Episcopal/Anglican Church is more traditional (at least in service) and contemplative than denominations that do contemporary style churches. If you goal is contemporary-worship-style-or-bust, then I can understand where your opposition is coming from.

[RedneckAnglican]

Tell Celeste I'm praying for her...and you, too...

[trooper]

I would just add, from the other side, that I have had a tendency to be defensive to suggestions that we "modernize" our worship. And, in fact, (and to confess) have been rather firm in my opposition to it. Though, I think that I have overcome my reticence by being assured that my traditional service isn't being challenged. I was one of those young people who wanted the traditional stuff and I was mad that someone assumed to speak for me- wanting something "cooler". So, maybe you can calm the panic by assuring the folks that while you want to offer something different, you don't want to replace the traditional services that some people enjoy. I have been ok since I was told that they weren't going to "mess" with my service.

LOL

[Albion]

I would just add, from the other side, that I have had a tendency to be defensive to suggestions that we "modernize" our worship. And, in fact, (and to confess) have been rather firm in my opposition to it. Though, I think that I have overcome my reticence by being assured that my traditional service isn't being challenged. I was one of those young people who wanted the traditional stuff and I was mad that someone assumed to speak for me- wanting something "cooler". So, maybe you can calm the panic by assuring the folks that while you want to offer something different, you don't want to replace the traditional services that some people enjoy. I have been ok since I was told that they weren't going to "mess" with my service.

LOL

Folks--

It occurs to me that we need to know what "contemporary" means in this discussion. As Anglicans, we have a stake in the historic liturgy. Non-Anglicans can be happy with a completely non-liturgical service. So.....

By "contemporary" worship, is it contemplated that the music will be by guitars instead of the organ, the hymns will be more modern, the dress will be casual, the vestments less opulent, etc.?

OR is something that would actually change the order of worship given in the BCP in mind? Readings from Kahil Gibran and Benjamin Franklin, for instance, coca-cola instead of wine, etc., and everyone relating childhood experiences in lieu of instruction from the Bible, for instance.

I know that that is an exaggerated example and that it may be the furthest thing from the intentions of the OP. It's just an example, although not unheard of in some churches. My point is that we can't approach the question of resistance to having more contemporary worship in an Episcopal Church unless we have some idea of what kind of contemporary worship was suggested.

Flat out refusing some kinds of modernization would probably strike us as too unyielding, while some other kinds we'd probably say deserve to be refused.

[PaladinValer]

to answer some of your questions as to the church, yes there are heretics, but more at my current church. i also heavily feel a very powerful, almost overpowering, evil presence just walking into the office, sanctuary, parish hall.

1. Define "heresy"
2. It sounds you are dwelling waaaaaaaay too much on things that make no sense. I can make myself feel an "evil presence" around just about anything or anyone...my parish, my mother, Benny Hinn (okay...so that one might be real :P)...you get the point. You need to learn to discern which feelings are your own fears made manifest and which are those of God.

the grounds are holy but the people are not. our priest just addressed an issue on sunday morning that he sees is a problem. he said that as a community that is supposed to feel welcoming, he knows that is not happening. our former priest visited us on easter, and was welcomed by a very few. we had some newcomers, father and son, and the yd and i were the only ones that said anything to them.

Again, you are being extremely vague. It sounds like your fellow paritioners' numbers aren't growing, and some people are insisting that it is because they are being inhospitable. I'd see that personally as rather hard to prove; a person would have to be a member of the parish since that former priest and actually monitor and observe heavily the demeanor and behavior of all the paritioners.

I'm not questioning anyone's faith. i just feel that these people are not being very Godly. as far as the new ideas goes(mainly in my current church), the lady i talked to about starting a contemporary service said that she feels there would not be any support. i was thinking that there would be support, if not from the older congregants, then from the younger ones.

Do you mean a Rite II service?

on a side note, in a previous post i mentioned the yd having some attacks thrown at her, spiritually speaking. those have grown to the point that she has decided to leave the church and get out of town. i don't blame her for it. she was getting physically ill by all of it. we went to a college/careers service last night that we could definently feel a spirit of peace in the room. not just us but everyone else around could feel it too. she said that it confirmed her decision and she is going to leave, but not without saying anything to the kids. i ask for your prayers as she moves forward with this decision.

I'm still rather confused, as you haven't given a lot of details.

The Episcopal Church, just like any other province in the Anglican Communion, has sanctioned liturgies in the Book of Common Prayer, divided into two forms: Rite I and Rite II. Rite I tends to be more "traditional" in terms of language and feeling and Rite II tends to be more "contemporary" in terms of language and feel.

It is possible to have a "Rite III" worship service, but it would need cooperation from the bishop, the rector, and the vestry. I personally have never been to a "Rite III" service, although many parishes in my diocese use them. My Canterbury Fellowship services are the closest I've even been to a "Rite III," but only because there is no time for music and we almost always kill off the psalm and one of the lessons. Everything else is fully intact.

"Rite III" can be just about anything outside the common framework of Rites I and II. It could simply be one of those Rites, but all in Latin...it could be something akin to a special youth service in which the worship is specifically geared towards a specific audience.

[ixoye87]

Well, a spirit filled church need not be one that has contemporary style of worship. I was previously from a methodist church, i found the youth service a little too high for me, I began searching for a new church. Went to a charismatic one, and boy, it didn't suit me at all. In the end, I settled for St. Andrew's Cathedral, I like the order and stuff. Though the youth service i attend is more contempory style, we don't sing hymns, we sing modern songs like hillsong. But, I feel that I'll go for main service in the nave next time when I'm older, though we also have contemporary service. I don't think that we should gauge how spirit filled a church is based on the style of worship, I've got a friend who left the cathedral coz he said the church is dead. And he went to a charimatic church and said the spirit is living there, and he felt so drained when he came to cathedral. Well, worship comes from the heart and not the style of it. Personally, I don't feel that the cathedral is dead, perhaps it's a little dry, but definitelt not dead. I believe that God is working something out, and we've just gotta wait to see what He's gonna do.

[gtsecc]

...St. Andrew's Cathedral,
Which +Bishop?

[RobNJ]

Which +Bishop?


I guess, whoever is the Bishop in Singapore..

[RedneckAnglican]

Some clarification would be good. As PV said, what do you mean by a "Warrior for God." What are you trying to "do" for or within the Episcopal church? How do you mean, "the only help you're getting is from outside the Church?"

I think she means me...maybe a few others...

I don't want to speak for her, but I think she is being misunderstood...I hope I am not overstepping my bounds by posting this...if I am feel free to delete...I think the spirit of darkness she speaks of is the... well...evil...for lack of a better term... that is going on in that Church...(and I am talking about that one local Church, not the ECUSA in general...I have a great deal of respect for the ECUSA and most Episcopalians in general...that has not changed, or ever will)...there is a very distinct negitive vibe coming from that Church...lying...backstabbing...bearing false witness...being two-faced...being VERY cliqueish (is this a word?)...the fact that they have had about 5 priests in the last 3 years should say something...she seems to feel that there is a darkness, or spirit of evil over the place...I gotta be honest I have felt this sort of thing before and it is there...it's the sort of thing where you say to yourself that "something is wrong, but I can't put my finger on it" sort of thing...a lot of people will say that this is just emotionalism...hey I understand that...about 13 or so years ago I would've said the same thing...but not now...I think that is what she means...that is the impression i got from the conversation we had thursday...i hope I did it justice...

[Inside Edge]

If that's the case...isn't making the bishop aware of your (hers) concerns the next logical step?

[outcast4christ]

the last priest we had must have felt it because i've been told by a very reliable source that that is the reason he left. he had been wanting to leave about a year after he arrived, but just couldn't find a way to get out of this Church and into another, which is probably the reason he is no longer a priest. as far as telling the bishop goes, we have interim rector that seems to be doing very well by telling the congregation where they need improvement. his sermon last sunday was about loving your neighbor and that's what this church needs to improve on. i will try and talk to him about the darkness that is felt but i would ask for your prayers if i'm going to do this. i have thought about getting out of beaumont and transferring to a college in austin. maybe UT or ACC(austin community college). no final decisions yet though.

i do thank all of you for your comments. rednecklutheran touched on some points that i made but just couldn't get them out properly. (thank you for the "back-up") again i do appreciate the comments. keep them comin'.

peace-
outcast

[ixoye87]

The bishop is the rt rev dr. john chew. The anglican church in singapore is the 2nd largest group of protestants, the largest is the methodist. There are many contemporary services conducted in the parishes and extension services. The cathedral is now building an underground chapel that is linked to the train station, so the more modern and youth services will be held in the new chapel, which is in the cathedral grounds. And St. andrew's cathedral is right in the middle of Singapore, it's in town, so hopefully, with the new chapel, more pple will come to know of Christ!!! We're also the oldest church in singapore, the cathedral is a historical monument. http://www.livingstreams.org.sg

[PaladinValer]

the last priest we had must have felt it because i've been told by a very reliable source that that is the reason he left. he had been wanting to leave about a year after he arrived, but just couldn't find a way to get out of this Church and into another, which is probably the reason he is no longer a priest.

Perhaps then what you need is a new parish or, perhaps, get yourself involved. Run for the vestry and start putting your own ideas in the pot. Make suggestions for activities. Nothing better than putting cold water back on the burner than adding a new chef to help out.

as far as telling the bishop goes, we have interim rector that seems to be doing very well by telling the congregation where they need improvement. his sermon last sunday was about loving your neighbor and that's what this church needs to improve on.

Hopefully it will, but don't stay on the sidelines. Get active!

i will try and talk to him about the darkness that is felt but i would ask for your prayers if i'm going to do this. i have thought about getting out of beaumont and transferring to a college in austin. maybe UT or ACC(austin community college). no final decisions yet though.

Be careful on what words you use. Talking about a "dark presence" is not going to help you. Simply state how you feel without colorful language and you may be surprised how much of an impact your words can have.