daverain's: nice and easy creed

[daverain]

The daverain Creed:
----------------------------

-WE- are to -NOT- have 'pastors',

who:

TEACH, or LEAD:



Matthew 23: 8 to 12:
-----------------------------

8"But

DO NOT BE CALLED RABBI

(My words: Rabbi means TEACHER);


for

ONE is your TEACHER,


and you are all brothers.


9"Do not call anyone on earth your father;

for

One is your Father,

He who is in heaven.



10"DO NOT BE CALLED LEADERS;

for

One is your Leader,

that is, Christ.



11"But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12"Whoever EXALTS himself shall be humbled;

and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.



Q.)

What do 'pastors' do?

A.)

TEACH and LEAD.

(and are 'self exalted')

Also: "GOD, will be (our) TEACHER" , and "GOD will put -His Law- on (our) HEARTS.")

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

We are to -NOT- have 'pastors' at all

(=Please, ONLY have Pastor Jesus, and no-one else.)



Pastors (from the bible), were under the APOSTLES, who had SIGNS and WONDERS (=miracles) FOLLOWING THEM.

This was to declare that you could BELIEVE what they (=the apostles) said.

(Jesus -obviously- had miracles as well, as HE is The One, to LOOK TO.)



The modern day 'pastor' (with lies),

does -NOT- have

-ANY-

Signs and Wonders

following them

(as outlined above).



Please don't listen to them.

We are -VERY OFTEN-,

warned (in Scripture),

of False Teachings to come.

AND...

*** THE BIBLE IS NOW WRITTEN ***

(=NO MORE MESSAGE TO BE GIVEN,

John 3:16. That's The End. Nothing could be greater than that.)



"For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should -NOT- perish, but have -ETERNAL- LIFE"

(My words: Eternal Life = -FOREVER- Life)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(How to get there...)

We are -NOT- to call -ANY- building

a 'church':

THE BIBLE NEVER TELLS US TO MAKE BUILDINGS, AND CALL THEM 'CHURCHES'.

The Church,

are those who receive God (through His Son).



Churches, are Christians (and non-Christians), who meet,

but -NEVER- do you see:



Sunday Building needed.



We are NOT -COMMANDED-, to 'GATHER TOGETHER',

-THAT- , would sound like a:

'SALVATION REQUIREMENT'

(which it's not)



CHRIST HAS PAID EVERYTHING!

(Praise His Name!)

"It is FINISHED"



* If you do 'gather-together',

please let it be a -FREE- 'home group',

-WITHOUT- a 'leader'/'teacher'

(=Talk to each other -with 'testing'-, but LEARN FROM GOD)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



To learn from God:

Please go to God, -ALONE-.

Please -speak- (so that you'll know you've done it)

a question/request,

and 'forget about it'

(so to speak),

so that God can answer in HIS way



For me, I get an answer

(over time by: thoughts, feelings, and 'SIGNS')

from HIM,

within a couple of weeks, usually.



Q.)

Can -ANY- earthly-human

(without 'signs and wonders' present)

be EXPECTED to DECLARE -EVERY-

WONDER OF GOD?

A.)

NO!



Their 'wisdom',

is to learn -BLINDNESS-,

from each other.

(And ADDING words

'on top of' Scripture,

as if to say that Scripture...

IS -NOT- GOOD ENOUGH

(Scripture IS good enough.)



Please learn from -GOD-,

through His Son,

through John 3:16.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Solution:

By -NOT-

going to: Sunday-building,

-OR-

'paying money',

(and getting others to do the same),

one -DECLARES-

-ANOTHER-

way to Salvation: Jesus,

and the sacrifice he gave

to us, for FREE

(=No strings attached, -NOTHING- owed.)



"...the -GIFT-

of God,

is

-ETERNAL- LIFE."

[WesWoodell]

I'm not listening because you are trying to teach me.

[daverain]

.

(And please notice, that THE WORD does -NOT- say 'Go to -building- on Sunday', -OR- 'pay cash', to anyone -NOW-.)





I'm not listening because you are trying to teach me.






Ah, BUT...

To -NOT- learn from -ANY- 'earthly-human',

NEEDS TO BE TAUGHT.


('human-nature', says to learn from an 'earthly-human')


I'm saying:

DON'T LEARN FROM ME,


LEARN FROM -GOD-.

What I mean:
-------------

Please -DO- assume that there's -error- present

(I'm -NOT- Jesus),

and please -TEST- what I'm saying

(and please see me, as a FELLOW Christian, who puts himself -NOT- -ABOVE- another Christian),

Please -ASK GOD-, If -ANY- of my creed is true.


There are SO MANY DIFFERENT DENOMINATIONS (within Christianity), that with ALL THAT DIFFERENCE, the way to learn must -NOT- be from people

(who are here now).

(=Please -STOP- insisting that -YOUR -building- SERMONS- are needed, or are without -ERROR-.)

We ARE OFTEN warned that -ERROR- -WILL- be taught.

-GOD-, however, does -NOT- lie.


Let -GOD- be true, and -EVERY- man (except the -Man- Jesus),

a liar.


The message (jOHN 3:16) IS ALREADY HERE.

What sadness how it's being polluted.

(By saying that -MORE- is needed.)




.

[New_Wineskin]

The daverain Creed:


That was pretty good .

[michaeldimmickjr]

I direct your attention to Ephesians 4:1-16. Also 1 Thessalonians 5:12. I kind of understand where you're coming from but it does not line up with God's Word. There are a lot more scriptures that I can show you, but first I want to see how these go over :) .

yours in Christ,
Michael

[julian the apostate]

wes<<I'm not listening because you are trying to teach me.

rofl

although in some defense of what he is saying,

when i was becoming anglican, i quized a priest/spiritual director on various doctrines on the atonement and what not

he stopped me cold in one moment:
he told me that i didnt need any man, priest or pastor to tell me what to believe that if i would get into the presence of God i would know more in that moment than all the theological books ever written could teach me

[New_Wineskin]

I retract my agreement . You seem to equate learning from the Scriptures to learning from the Lord . If that were correct , the Pharasees would have been able to "get it" .

But , outside of the parts where you refer to that concept , I agree .

[holo]

I guess I agree, apart from the "nice and easy" part, hehe.

[newbeliever02072005]

I direct your attention to Ephesians 4:1-16. Also 1 Thessalonians 5:12. I kind of understand where you're coming from but it does not line up with God's Word. There are a lot more scriptures that I can show you, but first I want to see how these go over :) .

yours in Christ,
Michael

Thanks for the scriptures. I was happy to see that it is scriptural that pastors and teachers acceptable. I coudn't imagine trying to figure the bible out without any help from a fellow christian. I started reading the bible on my own before I became a christian and finally got to a point that I needed the fellowship of the church members to help me grow further. So, it is important to be in a church and fellowship together about the one most important person.....God. Our relationship with God is ultimately a personal thing, but there is nothing wrong with learning and growing with others. :)

Take care and God Bless!
newbeliever :)

[Forest]

......We are to -NOT- have 'pastors' at all

(=Please, ONLY have Pastor Jesus, and no-one else.)



Pastors (from the bible), were under the APOSTLES, who had SIGNS and WONDERS (=miracles) FOLLOWING THEM.

This was to declare that you could BELIEVE what they (=the apostles) said.

(Jesus -obviously- had miracles as well, as HE is The One, to LOOK TO.)

Not Pastor Jesus, rather Saviour Jesus.

Scripture doesn't say that there will be no more Pastors once the Bible is written.

You can learn from a Pastor as long as you, test (as you say) what is said.

Because some Pastors lie, does not mean that all Pastor's lie.

Just remember...

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

[michaeldimmickjr]

Thanks for the scriptures. I was happy to see that it is scriptural that pastors and teachers acceptable. I coudn't imagine trying to figure the bible out without any help from a fellow christian. I started reading the bible on my own before I became a christian and finally got to a point that I needed the fellowship of the church members to help me grow further. So, it is important to be in a church and fellowship together about the one most important person.....God. Our relationship with God is ultimately a personal thing, but there is nothing wrong with learning and growing with others. :)

Take care and God Bless!
newbeliever :)

You're welcome :)

Yours in Christ,
Michael

[- DRA -]

The daverain Creed:
----------------------------

-WE- are to -NOT- have 'pastors',

who:

TEACH, or LEAD:



Matthew 23: 8 to 12:
-----------------------------

8"But

DO NOT BE CALLED RABBI

(My words: Rabbi means TEACHER);


for

ONE is your TEACHER,


and you are all brothers.


9"Do not call anyone on earth your father;

for

One is your Father,

He who is in heaven.



10"DO NOT BE CALLED LEADERS;

for

One is your Leader,

that is, Christ.



11"But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12"Whoever EXALTS himself shall be humbled;

and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.



Q.)

What do 'pastors' do?

A.)

TEACH and LEAD.

(and are 'self exalted')

Also: "GOD, will be (our) TEACHER" , and "GOD will put -His Law- on (our) HEARTS.")

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

We are to -NOT- have 'pastors' at all

(=Please, ONLY have Pastor Jesus, and no-one else.)



Pastors (from the bible), were under the APOSTLES, who had SIGNS and WONDERS (=miracles) FOLLOWING THEM.

This was to declare that you could BELIEVE what they (=the apostles) said.

(Jesus -obviously- had miracles as well, as HE is The One, to LOOK TO.)



The modern day 'pastor' (with lies),

does -NOT- have

-ANY-

Signs and Wonders

following them

(as outlined above).



Please don't listen to them.

We are -VERY OFTEN-,

warned (in Scripture),

of False Teachings to come.

AND...

*** THE BIBLE IS NOW WRITTEN ***

(=NO MORE MESSAGE TO BE GIVEN,

John 3:16. That's The End. Nothing could be greater than that.)



"For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should -NOT- perish, but have -ETERNAL- LIFE"

(My words: Eternal Life = -FOREVER- Life)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(How to get there...)

We are -NOT- to call -ANY- building

a 'church':

THE BIBLE NEVER TELLS US TO MAKE BUILDINGS, AND CALL THEM 'CHURCHES'.

The Church,

are those who receive God (through His Son).



Churches, are Christians (and non-Christians), who meet,

but -NEVER- do you see:



Sunday Building needed.



We are NOT -COMMANDED-, to 'GATHER TOGETHER',

-THAT- , would sound like a:

'SALVATION REQUIREMENT'

(which it's not)



CHRIST HAS PAID EVERYTHING!

(Praise His Name!)

"It is FINISHED"



* If you do 'gather-together',

please let it be a -FREE- 'home group',

-WITHOUT- a 'leader'/'teacher'

(=Talk to each other -with 'testing'-, but LEARN FROM GOD)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



To learn from God:

Please go to God, -ALONE-.

Please -speak- (so that you'll know you've done it)

a question/request,

and 'forget about it'

(so to speak),

so that God can answer in HIS way



For me, I get an answer

(over time by: thoughts, feelings, and 'SIGNS')

from HIM,

within a couple of weeks, usually.



Q.)

Can -ANY- earthly-human

(without 'signs and wonders' present)

be EXPECTED to DECLARE -EVERY-

WONDER OF GOD?

A.)

NO!



Their 'wisdom',

is to learn -BLINDNESS-,

from each other.

(And ADDING words

'on top of' Scripture,

as if to say that Scripture...

IS -NOT- GOOD ENOUGH

(Scripture IS good enough.)



Please learn from -GOD-,

through His Son,

through John 3:16.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Solution:

By -NOT-

going to: Sunday-building,

-OR-

'paying money',

(and getting others to do the same),

one -DECLARES-

-ANOTHER-

way to Salvation: Jesus,

and the sacrifice he gave

to us, for FREE

(=No strings attached, -NOTHING- owed.)



"...the -GIFT-

of God,

is

-ETERNAL- LIFE."

The word "pastor" is commonly used by many today to refer to the preacher. However, a pastor (Eph. 4:11) in the New Testament is synonymous with an elder, bishop, shepherd, or overseer -- all referring to the same function or role -- each term considering the role from a different perspective.

I suggest the following study for your careful consideration concerning the role of elders in the N.T. church:
http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/eld/eld_so.pdf

I would like to comment on one statement in your quote:

"We are NOT -COMMANDED-, to 'GATHER TOGETHER',

-THAT- , would sound like a:

'SALVATION REQUIREMENT'

(which it's not)"

My Response:
Check out Hebrews 10:24-25. That text is a command/direct statement. What is commanded or required in the passage of Scripture?

[Misty Minister]

Seditious

[WesWoodell]

Dictionary!

[WesWoodell]

Seditious

Adjective: seditious si'dishus

Arousing (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/AROUSE) to action (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/ACTION) or rebellion (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/REBELLION)
- incendiary (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/INCENDIARY) , incitive (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/INCITIVE) , inflammatory (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/INFLAMMATORY) , instigative (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/INSTIGATIVE) , rabble-rousing (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/RABBLEROUSING)
In opposition (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/INOPPOSITION) to a civil authority (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/CIVILAUTHORITY) or government (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/GOVERNMENT)
- insurgent (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/INSURGENT) , subversive (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/SUBVERSIVE)
See also: disloyal (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/DISLOYAL)


Owned.

[- DRA -]

Seditious

What is seditious?

[daverain]

.






"We are NOT -COMMANDED-, to 'GATHER TOGETHER',

-THAT- , would sound like a:

'SALVATION REQUIREMENT'

(which it's not)"

My Response:
Check out Hebrews 10:24-25. That text is a command/direct statement. What is commanded or required in the passage of Scripture?



Nothing.

Nothing is -COMMANDED- in that 'passage of Scripture':


24and let us -CONSIDER- how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.


(Nothing commanded there.)


The Good News,

is that one can believe upon

the Sacrifice of Christ

and -BE SAVED-.

Period.

(Please see John 3:16)


Peace in Christ.



.

[michaeldimmickjr]

.






Nothing.

Nothing is -COMMANDED- in that 'passage of Scripture':


24and let us -CONSIDER- how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.


(Nothing commanded there.)


The Good News,

is that one can believe upon

the Sacrifice of Christ

and -BE SAVED-.

Period.

(Please see John 3:16)


Peace in Christ.



.

25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some,

forsake v : leave someone who needs or counts on you; leave in the lurch; "The mother deserted her children" [syn: abandon (http://dict.die.net/abandon/), desolate (http://dict.die.net/desolate/), desert (http://dict.die.net/desert/)]

This is what Paul says not to do. He may not say I command you to do this, but does he really need to?

Believing is not enough either. We must have faith. The devil believes that Christ died for us.Your Brother in Christ,Michael

[holo]

We need faith, yes, but faith is also a gift. Jesus is faith's "originator and perfector."

[michaeldimmickjr]

We need faith, yes, but faith is also a gift. Jesus is faith's "originator and perfector."

:amen:

Right! And He has also given every man a certain measure of faith.

Your Brother in Christ,

Michael

[New_Wineskin]

25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some,

forsake v : leave someone who needs or counts on you; leave in the lurch; "The mother deserted her children" [syn: abandon (http://dict.die.net/abandon/), desolate (http://dict.die.net/desolate/), desert (http://dict.die.net/desert/)]

This is what Paul says not to do. He may not say I command you to do this, but does he really need to?


Yes , he would . At least , the author would need to be clear about it being a command . Also , for it to be from the Lord for all believers at all times , the author would need to express that it was from the Lord . But , that would contradict one of the major points of the letter which indicates that Christianity is *not* about a written code .

But , let's forget about the clear contradiction the author would be making and let us look at the possibility that this *is* a command for all Christians at all times ...

What was the specific "habit" of these "some" ? In what way were they "forsaking" ? Doesn't say . What are the specific requirements of "assembling together" in order to not disobey this "command" ? Doesn't say . What is the punishment for not obeying this ? Doesn't say . What is the procedure for obtaining forgiveness ( if one can be forgiven of this ) ? Doesn't say . How does the author indicate that this is a requirement for salvation ? Doesn't say a thing about salvation .

Outside of the already mentioned contradiction involved if this *was* a command for all believers for all times , there is another contradiction made by people using this passage . Many of the people using this passage also state that one should not "church hop" - that one should regularly attend a specific group of people . This of course is the epitome of forsaking assembling together . These two doctrines contradict each other .

[michaeldimmickjr]

Yes , he would . At least , the author would need to be clear about it being a command . Also , for it to be from the Lord for all believers at all times , the author would need to express that it was from the Lord . But , that would contradict one of the major points of the letter which indicates that Christianity is *not* about a written code .

If we believe that the Bible is already God's Word, why would we need further commenting on this?
I don't believe that God's Word contradicts itself at all.
What is the major point? Where is it?

But , let's forget about the clear contradiction the author would be making and let us look at the possibility that this *is* a command for all Christians at all times ...

[QUOTE=New_Wineskin]What was the specific "habit" of these "some" ? In what way were they "forsaking" ? Doesn't say . What are the specific requirements of "assembling together" in order to not disobey this "command" ? Doesn't say . What is the punishment for not obeying this ? Doesn't say . What is the procedure for obtaining forgiveness ( if one can be forgiven of this ) ? Doesn't say . How does the author indicate that this is a requirement for salvation ? Doesn't say a thing about salvation .

The habit is "giving up meeting together."
I never said, nor have I seen anyone say that church is a requirement for salvation.

Outside of the already mentioned contradiction involved if this *was* a command for all believers for all times , there is another contradiction made by people using this passage . Many of the people using this passage also state that one should not "church hop" - that one should regularly attend a specific group of people . This of course is the epitome of forsaking assembling together . These two doctrines contradict each other .

I never mentioned "church hopping", did anyone else?

Your Brother in Christ,

Michael

[christosdoulos]

Daverain, it seems that you are contradicting yourself. In saying that we are to have no pastors/teachers, then how is it that you are "teaching" this idea? After all, what you are doing is what a pastor does (to a certain degree.) You are looking at the Bible and then revealing it's truths to people. It is the same.

Regarding your last statement - Granted, salvation is by faith alone however "faith without works is dead." These two go hand in hand. Period.

[New_Wineskin]

I had a much larger post to answer the various questions . But , this is better :

I never said, nor have I seen anyone say that church is a requirement for salvation.


Good . I thought that you were saying that it was a command . Since it is not a requirement for salvation , it isn't something with which I am to be concerned .

[- DRA -]

.

Nothing.

Nothing is -COMMANDED- in that 'passage of Scripture':

24and let us -CONSIDER- how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

(Nothing commanded there.)

The Good News,

is that one can believe upon

the Sacrifice of Christ

and -BE SAVED-.

Period.

(Please see John 3:16)

Peace in Christ.

.

I beg to differ with your understanding of Hebrews 10:24-25. It is telling us the way that we stimulate one another to love and good works is by not forsaking the assembling of the church. That means we are to be there. Period. Assembling is not an option. It is something that we must do . . . assuming that we really desire to please God and do what He says.

John 3:16 is indeed good news. But, so is Mark 16:16. Both are Scriptures. Both were spoken by the Lord. And, we can look at the examples of conversions in the book of Acts to determine what it takes for one to be saved from their sins under the gospel of Christ. BTW, what did the apostle Peter -- who was under the direct influence of the Holy Spirit -- tell those to do to have their sins taken away who believed the sermon that he preached (see Acts 2:38)? Now, how does your understanding of John 3:16 harmonize with Acts 2:38?

[Misty Minister]

Daverain, it seems that you are contradicting yourself. In saying that we are to have no pastors/teachers, then how is it that you are "teaching" this idea? After all, what you are doing is what a pastor does (to a certain degree.) You are looking at the Bible and then revealing it's truths to people. It is the same.

Regarding your last statement - Granted, salvation is by faith alone however "faith without works is dead." These two go hand in hand. Period.
James the Deciple amen amen amen

[daverain]

.

(Sorry, I've been away for a while.)




Believing is not enough either. We must have faith. The devil believes that Christ died for us.



The devil does -NOT- believe -IN- (Greek: into) Jesus.

The devil does -NOT- believe -UPON- the sacrifice of Christ.


(The demons believe: 'God is one', 'and shudder'. =Big diference.)



Peace in Christ.




.

[daverain]

.





If we believe that the Bible is already God's Word,

why would we need further commenting on this?







EXACTLY.

Attention: 'pastors':


Please -STOP- 'commenting' on The Bible, and JUST READ IT.

(= NO MORE DENOMINATIONS.)


.

[Ceris]

I direct your attention to Ephesians 4:1-16. Also 1 Thessalonians 5:12. I kind of understand where you're coming from but it does not line up with God's Word. There are a lot more scriptures that I can show you, but first I want to see how these go over :) .

yours in Christ,
Michael

Daverain, you still haven't dealt with these two passages of scripture yet.

[daverain]

(Hello Ceris.)

(Yes. I will. Please hang on,

I need to look up those particular passages.)

(For now, it's clear to me that -CHRIST ALONE- saves us.)

[daverain]

(Ephesians 6:14 to 17)

(


14Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,

15and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;

16in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

--------------------

Um...

Yes I agree with everything here.

I wish more people had that 'helmet of salvation'.


(T.B.C)

[daverain]

.




(Ephesians 4: 1-16)

1Therefore I, (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29274A))the prisoner of the Lord, (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29274B))implore you to (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29274C))walk in a manner worthy of the (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29274D))calling with which you have been (E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29274E))called,


2with all (F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29275F))humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another (G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29275G))in love,

3being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the (H (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29276H))bond of peace.

4There is (I (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29277I))one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one (J (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29277J))hope of your calling;

5(K (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29278K))one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6one God and Father of all (L (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29279L))who is over all and through all and in all.

7But (M (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29280M))to each one of us (N (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29280N))grace was given (O (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29280O))according to the measure of Christ's gift.

8Therefore it says,
"(P (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29281P))WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
HE (Q (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29281Q))LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."

9(Now this expression, "He (R (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29282R))ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into (S (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29282S))the lower parts of the earth?

10He who descended is Himself also He who ascended (T (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29283T))far above all the heavens, so that He might (U (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29283U))fill all things.)

11And He (V (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29284V))gave (W (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29284W))some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as (X (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29284X))evangelists, and some as pastors and (Y (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29284Y))teachers,



(My words: That was -THEN-. =Under the authority of -REAL APOSTLES-, with SIGNS AND WONDERS following them.)

12(Z (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29285Z))for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of (AA (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29285AA))the body of Christ;

13until we all attain to (AB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29286AB))the unity of the faith, and of the (AC (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29286AC))knowledge of the Son of God, to a (AD (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29286AD))mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the (AE (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29286AE))fullness of Christ.

14As a result, we are (AF (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29287AF))no longer to be children, (AG (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29287AG))tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by (AH (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29287AH))craftiness in (AI (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29287AI))deceitful scheming;

15but speaking the truth (AJ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29288AJ))in love, we are to (AK (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29288AK))grow up in all aspects into Him who is the (AL (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29288AL))head, even Christ, 16from whom (AM (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29289AM))the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself (AN (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29289AN))in love.



*This was under the authority of -REAL APOSTLES-, who had -signs and wonders- following them.

These -declared- that you could listen to them, and hear the truth.


----------------------------




.

[daverain]

9For God has not destined us for (V (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20thessalonians%205;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29631V))wrath, but for (W (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20thessalonians%205;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29631W))obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,



10(X (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20thessalonians%205;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29632X))who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

11Therefore encourage one another and (Y (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20thessalonians%205;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29633Y))build up one another, just as you also are doing. Christian Conduct

12But we request of you, brethren, that you (Z (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20thessalonians%205;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29634Z))appreciate those (AA (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20thessalonians%205;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29634AA))who diligently labor among you, and (AB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20thessalonians%205;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29634AB))have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction,

(My words: -That- was under the authority of -REAL APOSTLES-.)


13and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work. (AC (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20thessalonians%205;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29635AC))Live in peace with one another.

14We urge you, brethren, admonish (AD (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20thessalonians%205;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29636AD))the unruly, encourage (AE (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20thessalonians%205;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29636AE))the fainthearted, help (AF (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20thessalonians%205;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29636AF))the weak, be (AG (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20thessalonians%205;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29636AG))patient with everyone.

15See that (AH (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20thessalonians%205;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29637AH))no one repays another with evil for evil, but always (AI (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20thessalonians%205;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29637AI))seek after that which is good for one another and for all people.

16(AJ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20thessalonians%205;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29638AJ))Rejoice always;

17(AK (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20thessalonians%205;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29639AK))pray without ceasing; 18in everything (AL (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20thessalonians%205;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29640AL))give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.

*This was under the authority of -REAL APOSTLES-, who had -signs and wonders- following them.

These -declared- that you could listen to them, and hear the truth.


.

[daverain]

Even under the authority of -REAL APOSTLES-,

people taught false teachings:

"You foolish Galatians..." (etc.)


The -APOSTLE- Paul had left for a while.

When he came back,

people were teaching that 'You -MUST- be circumsised' ('be ye doers of the word'.Lol.)


Can you imagine what 2,000+ years,

would do to the message?



.

[daverain]

.






Daverain,

it seems that you are contradicting yourself.

In saying that we are to have no pastors/teachers, then how is it that you are "teaching" this idea?




It needs to be taught...

That we must -ONLY- be taught by God.

(It's in human nature, to learn from a not-perfect-human.)

(I ask that you -DO- assume that there's error -somewhere- in me, and view all others on this present-planet, in the same way. Please -TEST- all humans who -EVER- sin.That would be -EVERYONE ON EARTH-.Even 'leaders'.)


Peace in Christ.



.

[daverain]

.






I never said, nor have I seen anyone say that church is a requirement for salvation.








I would say that (for a -NON CHRISTIAN-, listening to the message) you most -CERTAINLY- -IMPLIED- the idea.

(Many other Christians, do this also)


(Just by -GOING TO SUNDAY BUILDING-, One -CAN- suggest that it's -REQUIRED- for salvation.



Peace in Christ.



.

[daverain]

.


Gotta go for now (I'll be back)...

(Did you know that you can get the word: 'Nicean', out of 'Nice and easy'?)


We are -SAVED BY GRACE ALONE THROUGH FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST ALONE-.


James tells us that Our Saving Faith -PRODUCES- Good Works.

(but we are -NEVER- saved by them.)

(Please don't think that 'Faith without works is dead' -NULLIFIES- the words of -PAUL-, when he says that: 'WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE AND -NOT- WORKS, SO THAT -NO ONE- MAY BOAST'.

(I'll talk to you all again soon.)



Peace in Christ.



.

[michaeldimmickjr]

.








I would say that (for a -NON CHRISTIAN-, listening to the message) you most -CERTAINLY- -IMPLIED- the idea.

(Many other Christians, do this also)


(Just by -GOING TO SUNDAY BUILDING-, One -CAN- suggest that it's -REQUIRED- for salvation.



Peace in Christ.



.

Never assume anything. I don't imply things. I am blunt in my faith and in Jesus Christ. Why beat around the bush? By going to church the only thing I am suggesting is that I'm on my way to worship my LORD and Saviour. I am not thinking "this is required for salvation..."

Your Brother in Christ,

Michael

[michaeldimmickjr]

*This was under the authority of -REAL APOSTLES-, who had -signs and wonders- following them.

These -declared- that you could listen to them, and hear the truth.


.

The apostles themselves had no authority other than what they could do through Christ Jesus. So, are you saying signs & wonders are not in the Church today? Are you saying Christ doesn't use the leaders whom He appointed in the Church to teach His Word? Is He not the same Yesterday, today & forever?

Your Brother in Christ,

Michael

[daverain]

Signs and wonders are -NOT- in Christ's Church today.

(Have -YOU- seen anyone -RAISE THE DEAD-?)

All I see are -SELF- appointed-leaders, in -DEAD DRY BUILDINGS-, who are -SELF EXALTED-.

God -IS- the same.

Mankind is corrupt.

(please read the words of -STEPHEN-, just before he was stoned to death. Stephen also had signs and wonders, declaring you could believe him. He was among 7 of thousands who were prayed over by The Apostles. Stephen -alone- is mentioned as having recived signs and wonders)

[michaeldimmickjr]

Signs and wonders are -NOT- in Christ's Church today.

(Have -YOU- seen anyone -RAISE THE DEAD-?)

All I see are -SELF- appointed-leaders, in -DEAD DRY BUILDINGS-, who are -SELF EXALTED-.

God -IS- the same.

Mankind is corrupt.

(please read the words of -STEPHEN-, just before he was stoned to death. Stephen also had signs and wonders, declaring you could believe him. He was among 7 of thousands who were prayed over by The Apostles. Stephen -alone- is mentioned as having recived signs and wonders)

What is your defintion of "signs & wonders?"

Can you back up your claim with scripture? Where does it say, "unless there are signs & wonders, don't go to church?"

I think by calling all pastors, preachers, etc. "self exalted," you are stereotyping. I would say beyond a shadow of a doubt this is not a Biblical claim, nor does it line-up with God's Word.

Can you back up your self-exalted, all authoritative claims that you are to be our teacher in this?

Your Brother in Christ,

Michael

[daverain]

.


No one is to be our teacher but Christ:

(Matthew 23:



8"But (I (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=matthew%2023&version1=49#cen-NASB-23927I))do not be called (J (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=matthew%2023&version1=49#cen-NASB-23927J))Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.

9"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for (K (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=matthew%2023&version1=49#cen-NASB-23928K))One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

10"Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

11"(L (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=matthew%2023&version1=49#cen-NASB-23930L))But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12"(M (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=matthew%2023&version1=49#cen-NASB-23931M))Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.



He will write His law on our hearts.

Also, no DEAD DRY BUILDING is called a 'church'

(I'm already part of The Church)

If someone wears a 'suit and tie', and 'goes to school'...

-SO WHAT- , -BIG DEAL-

(he can -EXALT- himself all he wants to, but -I- won't 'kiss his ring')


(The Bible -HAS- been written.)

(There is -NO MORE- message.)

(John 3:16 is enough)

(It is finished)


Peace in Christ.



.

[viperblue72]

he is saying dont be CALLED those things (teacher, rabbi, etc.) because that would put them above the others but it never says dont teach, dont preach, it just says not to take on a title so that you are above others, for example it would be ok to call your teacher brother bob but not teacher bob.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Wow so I guess we should toss out Paul's comments on who should teach because dang it Paul had to be wrong about that. Dave your teaching contradicts scripture and is therefore wrong. Let me illustrate (at least one verse you have already not responded to in this thread):

Hebrews 10:25 (New American Standard Bible)
25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

That in and of itself is enough to disprove your entire "creed" you have posted. You are taking scripture out of context to prove points that are not in scripture. You are one of those in Hebrews 10:25 "as is the habit of some". Your errors are likely the result of not being led in study at all. Certainly you are save and I see a zeal for the truth in you but you seem to seek to justify your own beliefs rather than searching scripture to see what is correct. Lets look at "teachers" next:

James 3:1 (New American Standard Bible)
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

Rabbi was a title that meant more than just "teacher" to the Jews. We can see in James that some are to be teachers and that those that are incurr a strciter judgement. Your entire "creed" is disproven when scripture is taken as a whole and just a few verses are looked at beyond what you offer. The problem is that you are not comparing your beliefs to the whole of scripture once you decide that you have found a "truth". I would adfvise you to use your zeal to search for the truth and not just to defend or convince others of your preconcieved notions.

[daverain]

.





he is saying dont be CALLED those things (teacher, rabbi, etc.) because that would put them above the others but it never says dont teach, dont preach, it just says not to take on a title so that you are above others, for example it would be ok to call your teacher brother bob but not teacher bob.




What about 'pastor bob' ?

(Is that -NOT- a 'title' above others? )


Peace in Christ.


.

[daverain]

.






Wow so I guess we should toss out Paul's comments on who should teach because dang it Paul had to be wrong about that. Dave your teaching contradicts scripture and is therefore wrong. Let me illustrate (at least one verse you have already not responded to in this thread):

Hebrews 10:25 (New American Standard Bible)
25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

That in and of itself is enough to disprove your entire "creed" you have posted. You are taking scripture out of context to prove points that are not in scripture. You are one of those in Hebrews 10:25 "as is the habit of some". Your errors are likely the result of not being led in study at all. Certainly you are save and I see a zeal for the truth in you but you seem to seek to justify your own beliefs rather than searching scripture to see what is correct. Lets look at "teachers" next:

James 3:1 (New American Standard Bible)
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
Rabbi was a title that meant more than just "teacher" to the Jews. We can see in James that some are to be teachers and that those that are incurr a strciter judgement. Your entire "creed" is disproven when scripture is taken as a whole and just a few verses are looked at beyond what you offer. The problem is that you are not comparing your beliefs to the whole of scripture once you decide that you have found a "truth". I would adfvise you to use your zeal to search for the truth and not just to defend or convince others of your preconcieved notions.




Long time no see.

(It appears 'things' have 'happened' , as it were. )

O.K. :
------

Paragraph 1 : That was for -THEN- (when -REAL- Apostles 'walked the earth')

Paragraph 2 : Yes, I'm assembling -HERE-

(and am 'with' fellow Christians)

(but that's -NOT- commanded , merely -SUGGESTED- )

(and -NOT- required for -SALVATION- , as many non-Christians do think )

Last Paragraph : That was for -THEN- (when -REAL- Apostles 'walked the earth')


Agreed?



Peace in Christ.




.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Shows us in scripture that any of that was only for when Apostles walked the earth, using scripture only. You are making claims you cannot back up and attempting to explain away scripture. I would also assert that the first church met on a regular basis as well all through Acts actually, on the first day of the week. WIth scripture as your only guide I hope you can show that the NT, or parts of it, were only for when the Apostles walked the earth because it certainly isn't in my Bible. If you can't your argument falls even further apart, at the seams actually.

[daverain]

.



Shows us in scripture that any of that was only for when Apostles walked the earth,

using scripture only.




Scripture is complete, and readily available

(therefore no further teaching is needed)


Also, -JESUS- said to believe Him...



because of

"The Works"

that He did.




Peace in Christ.



.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Dave you haven't shown me via scripture where it says any of the NT is not for us, please do that. You have shown in your own words and thoughts how you explain it away but you provide no backing at all for your claims. Please show scripture to back the claim that any part of the NT is not for us today.

[daverain]

Please show scripture to back the claim that any part of the NT is not for us today.



I feel that -ALL- of The Bible is 'for us today' (although we aren't to do certain things like sacrificing 'doves' ) (=New Testament / Old Covenant)

Jesus at the Temple

Matthew 21

12Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling -DOVES-.

Also...

Christ -FULLFILLS- The Law

(doesn't that imply that certain things are -NO LONGER- needed)

We are -NOT- under The Law: Galatians 3:10

(doesn't that imply that there's 'NO-LAW' for us to 'listen to a teacher', when The Bible has already been printed, and after all... -GOD- should be our teacher)



P.i.C.




.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Show support for your statements that there should be no teachers since scripture is complete. You already invalidate your own argument about Christ saying call no man Rabbi since that was said prior to the writing admonishing not many to become teachers. You cannot show your proof in scripture because it is not there. You are now asserting a doctrine that is not contained in scripture, a man made doctrine as it were since you made it up and it's outside of scripture, isn't that exactly the sort of thing you are ranting against? You are guilty of the exact smae thing you seem to be angry at others for doing. Please show your support in scripture for there being no teachers after scripture was complete. Oh yes also show when scripture was complete, was it after the last words were penned (and which book was last) or was it when the councils decided what books were going to be in the Bible and which council do you place your faith in for declaring scriptre complete?

[daverain]

Show support for your statements that there should be no teachers since scripture is complete.

admonishing not many to become teachers.

isn't that exactly the sort of thing you are ranting against? You are guilty of the exact smae thing you seem to be angry at others for doing.



(oops image problem)

Paragraph 1:

We are warned over and over that -FALSE TEACHINGS- will come.

(To me that's reason -ENOUGH- to learn from The Bible without any 'help')


Paragraph 2: That was -THEN- (under Apostles who could -correct- those 'foolish Galatians' (for example), who were 'teachers', who commanded (falsely) circumcision of the flesh

Paragraph 3: Please don't follow -ANYONE- (here on earth), without -TESTING- everything as if there -MUST- be -ERROR- present (somewhere in them)



More on -NOT- having 'teachers':
--------------------------------


1 Corinthians 2:13 it says :




Which things also we speak,


-NOT- in


the words which man's wisdom teacheth,





but which the Holy Ghost teacheth;




------------------------------------------------------






The -WE- is: -APOSTLES- who 'spoke by The Holy Spirit '


(believe them because of the 'signs and wonders' )...


While -ALL OTHERS-

(='bible interpreters') ,

speak in:

"words which man's wisdom teacheth"


(=No thank ye. )




P.i.C.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

You still have not shown that teachers are not to still exist and you have ignored large parts of the request. Are you simply avioding the things you cannot answer? That seems to be the case. Please answer the rest of the questions posed. Here they all are, in a list so you can see all of the easily:

1. Please show your support in scripture for there being no teachers after scripture was complete. (you have not managed to do this at all)

2. Oh yes also show when scripture was complete, was it after the last words were penned (and which book was last) or was it when the councils decided what books were going to be in the Bible and which council do you place your faith in for declaring scriptre complete? (you have not addressed this at all)

3. Show how you are not guilty of the same thing you are accusing others of as you are asseritng doctrine that has zero backing in scripture.

4. And since you brought up "things which we have also told you" please show how scripture is complete when even scripture mentions things that were not written down. You have just made an argument for tradition such as the Catholic Church or Orthodox church, both of which have claims tracing back to the Apositles. If there are things not conatined in scripture then wouldn't Apostolic succession make sense at that point?

Your defense only pokes more holes in your own arguments.

[daverain]

1.) I believe I have done so. -IF- there -MUST- be teachers, let them speak -ONLY- The Bible (Or John 3:16 over and over) (word for word) (with no 'commentary')

-AND- teach to learn from God -ALONE-

2.) He will write "His law on our hearts" (There's your 'complete scripture')

3.) I disagree with your findings

4.) See 2 (I don't think I said anything about 'tradition'. Did I?



P.i.C.


.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

You have only proven my point. You cannot back your stance with scripture therefore it is extra scriptural. You have defeated you own argument with very little work on my part. Scripture gives instruction for teachers that is for the ages and not just for the times. nless you can show otherwise then your argument frankly falls flat on it's face.

[daverain]

You have only proven my point. You cannot back your stance with scripture therefore it is extra scriptural. You have defeated you own argument with very little work on my part. Scripture gives instruction for teachers that is for the ages and not just for the times. nless you can show otherwise then your argument frankly falls flat on it's face.

I disagree with you.

I find that it seems for any Christian to make

a 'radical doctrinal change'....

A LOT OF TIME -OFTEN- is required (sometimes a year.O.S.A.S is a good example of this.)

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

But withou scripture to back your claims you have no basis for your argument that we don't need the whole of scripture. You would have to use scripture to begin with which anyone could explain away using your argument that it was "for the times". The problem is that you have declared yourself an authority on what was "for the times" and what is not. That makes you elevating yourself above and teaching those of us who don't get it, therefore making you a teacher. You argue and debate your point without even the authority of scripture to back you. His law on our hearts is not a reference to scripture at all, it is a reference to no longer needing the written law laid out in the OT. We have the full NT that never speaks against itself. I cannot imagine that anyone would speak against God's revealed word to us in the form of scripture. You are doing what you accuse pastors of doing. You are teaching something that is very plainly not in scripture and you are condeming people of the same thing in the same breath. Good show there old chap!

[daverain]

Doves were sacrificed in The New Testament.

That's -NOT- for me.

(Christ's New Covenant 'kicked in' at Pentecost)


P.i.C.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Where have I talked about sacrificing doves Dave? You bring that up and it's out of context completely. You are throwing up smoke and mirrors to take away from the fact your argument has no logical basis once it is held up to the light of scripture. Nowhere in scripture does it say or imply that teachers were only for the time of the Apostles, not once and yet you assert that. That makes it extra-Biblical and man-made.

[daverain]

Where have I talked about sacrificing doves Dave?



(Please call me daverain, flesh99)

I believe it is here:

'We have the full NT that never speaks against itself.'

(doves -WERE- sold in the temple)

(I believe some were sacrificed when Christ was born, as this was still Old Covenant Law that they -ALL- were under.)

(are you -EDITING- your previous posts to 'cover things up', as it were? )

(just wondering.)

I disagree with you that I -HAVEN'T- made my 'point' with scripture.

(Oh well)


Peace in Christ.



.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

I don't see any edita made to my posts and quite frankly resent the accusation. You have yet to show where scripture plainyl states that we don't need teachers without your logic applied and your words added so you have failed to prove your point with scripture. You can try and prove you point by adding your thoughts to scripture, which oddly enough is what you condemn others for doing. I have not mentioned doves and you are trying to steer the conversation to the OT while the NT is what is at hand. According to you some parts of the NT were for Biblical times only and some parts are for now, can you show me in scripture where it describes these parts dave?

[daverain]

I feel I've answered flesh99.

I feel it's clear that (at this time) we -DISAGREE- on a 'few things.



I think it's clear who's right, though. ;)


Peace in Christ.

(I can -ALSO- be found in the -MARRIAGE- section of 'this place'. )

(I really enjoy 'gathering' there)


(I'll go there later on, then I'll come back here again.)

(Chow for now. )





.

[Llauralin]

Daverain, I'm trying to read this thread, but you're not exactly making it easy, what with the way you write and all; the desire to emphasise certain points is somwhat understandable, but really annoying and hard to read. Usually points are emphasised by use of paragraphs, sentence length, cadence and rythem, vocabluary, ect.

Why do you write in such a way?

(Will comment on the subject after reading more of the thread)

Forgive me....

[michaeldimmickjr]

What is your defintion of "signs & wonders?"

Can you back up your claim with scripture? Where does it say, "unless there are signs & wonders, don't go to church?"

I think by calling all pastors, preachers, etc. "self exalted," you are stereotyping. I would say beyond a shadow of a doubt this is not a Biblical claim, nor does it line-up with God's Word.

Can you back up your self-exalted, all authoritative claims that you are to be our teacher in this?

Your Brother in Christ,

Michael

:confused:

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Don;t worry michaeldimmickjr, he'll claim he addressed that in a later post or ignore it altogether. It's easier for our brother dave to ignore posts that really punch holes in his theology than it is for him to admit he very well might be wrong. I could be wrong and am willing to be shown, and have been numerous times, but dave here fails to do so on a regular basis. Don't worry he'll likely at least claim to have addressed your post very soon.

[Llauralin]

*Frowns* So, you're saying that just because something is not a requirment for salvation, it is wrong? Alright, perhaps there needn't be a single person lecturing about what they believe the right interperitation to be - for that reason liturgy may be preferable to sermons per say, but why on earth should we 'throw the baby out with the bathwater" so to speak? As mentioned above, there are scriptures suggesting that the early Christians were already meeting in assembly at the time of the writing of the epistles.

The thing I don't understand is simply this - why should something be necessary to salvation in order to be helpful or worthwile? I love God, and really want to learn about Him, read about Him, worship Him both in public and private, pray to Him both in public and in private, and talk about Him with others of like mind. Church meetings are a helpful way to do this, to remember to set aside a day out of each week as holy to the Lord, to have the truths I most like to focus on tempered and corrected by the wisdom of my brothers and sisters in Christ. I would never, ever wish to do this alone, and if wise men of the Church have determined that a certain way of doing things is best, I am certaintly willing to accept such a concensus of history as has been shown by Christians throughout the church. A measure for what is true Christianity that I have heard is "that which has been believed always, everywhere, and by all." That the church should meet locally often for mutual support, instruction, and worship is among those things.

It strikes me as astonishing hubris that you feel that your interperitation of Scripture on this matter, based upon a few verses, is obviously more valid that the consensus of the Church.

Forgive me....

[daverain]

Why do you write in such a way?





Like Paul says:

"I'm writing to you with -BOLD- -LETTERS "


(-I- think that was so -THEY- could 'see' . )

(I'm -NOT- Paul of course)

(I have -NOT- raised the dead, or had a -DEADLY- snake attached to me)


P.i.C.




.

[daverain]

.


(Context: Referring to Sunday buildings)



helpful or worthwile




Maybe so.



Ah, BUT...


While Sunday Buildings maybe good

(for the 'gathering' feeling),


MANY NON-CHRISTIANS

(that -a man I know of- talks to)

Think that -GOING TO SUNDAY BUILDING- is -REQUIRED FOR SALVATION-.

(and there's the -BAD- )



Peace in Christ.






.

[ServantMatthew]

I can agree on some points on most all the posts :)

After prayer on this I was led to this scripture in the writings of I John 2: 13-27 (he addresses to all, fathers, young, children)

He addresses the fact that you do not need any man to teach you. However...
This does NOT mean that another man CANNOT teach you. The holy spirit works through individuals, as it does through teachers. You will know in your heart when something just isn't quite right, and that is where you test it with scripture. You have the annointing, when you accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your saviour. You are His. His law IS written in your heart. This is true that going to church in the physical means is not a requirement of salvation....However.....

Let us not forsake the gathering of ourselves.

Why?
Love. How will you know a brother is in need if you are not there? How can you help serve the Lord if you forsake your brothers and sisters? Do this out of Love, and be perfected in Love. This does not mean you have to accept the different doctrines of men. Just serve Him in all things. :) He will be your guide. Fellowship with one another, be it here on the boards, or in a physical church. Do not judge others if you go to thier church on their belief or doctrine, but be respectful of that belief. We who are Christians all serve our Lord Jesus Christ in different ways.

Please put my words to the test of scripture. Do not ever accept anything I say without His Holy Word.

May God Bless all of you.
:)

[daverain]

.


I like the previous post, and am in agreement with it.

(and still stand by what I've said as well)


Peace in Christ.


.

[Llauralin]

.


(Context: Referring to Sunday buildings)




Maybe so.



Ah, BUT...


While Sunday Buildings maybe good

(for the 'gathering' feeling),


MANY NON-CHRISTIANS

(that -a man I know of- talks to)

Think that -GOING TO SUNDAY BUILDING- is -REQUIRED FOR SALVATION-.

(and there's the -BAD- )



Peace in Christ.






.

So explain to these non-Christians that going to the "Sunday building" in not required for salvation! One of the problems with modern evangelicalism (I don't really know about other churches) is that they have WAY too low an opinion of what new Christians can understand - of course new Christians will be confused if they are never tought, and if such things are not explained to them; that is a point against your "creed" that there be no teachers!

A sinner...

[daverain]

So explain to these non-Christians that going to the "Sunday building" in not required for salvation!



Ah, BUT...

People 'see' things with their -EYES-,

as it were...

People see from when they're -BORN-,

that Christians got to Sunday buildings (every sunday, as well.)


P.i.C.


.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

I don't know a single person, saved or not, that thinks church attendance is mandatory. It is certainly a place for learning and furthering your relationship with God. It allows access to more than one viewpoint, usually a person trained in Bible study and research so that they can help with theological questions, corporate worship (which is spoken quite highly of in the NT) and many other benefits, but no-one I know save my liturgical bretheren believe church is mandatory. Everyone I know goes by choice as do I. I wouldn't miss my time worshipping God with my fellow church members for anything, it is a time to come together and praise our Creator and our Saviour as a body of believers, it is a time for fellowship and learning, and it is a time for evangelizing. The argument that some people might think that it is required doesn't hold water because if they ever took the time to find out they would know it wasn't required. No-one can understand the salvation message without the Holy Spirit to begin with so if they are being moved to understanding by third person of the Trinity then the false idea of "mandatory" church attendance won't be a barrier.

[daverain]

I don't know a single person, saved or not, that thinks church attendance is mandatory.




(for now)



Then please meet more NON-CHRISTIANS...

and -ASK- them if Christians teach that you:

'have to go to The Sunday Building.'


-AND-


By the way...)


A Christian -IS- in God's Church...

-WHERE - EVER- he/she is.





P.i.C.




.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

A Christian is PART of God's church, the church is entire body of believers which I fellowship with in part on Sunday mornings. I have met many non-Christians and have quite a few of them as friends and have asked them since this debate started and not a single one of them thinks you have to attend church. They have all heard that all you must do is believe, the problem is that they do not in fact believe. As stated your ideal here limits the Holy Spirit greatly and that is problematic. It is kind of like saying we should teach that unbelievable story about how Christ died on the cross and rose again since no-one would beleive a crazy notion like that.

[daverain]

Thank you for all of your opinions flesh99...

Please understand if I -DO- choose to focus on other people, now, as I've spent quite a bit of time talking with you.


Peace in Christ.


.

[Forest]

I don't know a single person, saved or not, that thinks church attendance is mandatory.

It doesn't mean they're not out there. I know of several.

However, making broad general statements about all teachers is not very helpful or accurate.

[daverain]

making broad general statements about all teachers is not very helpful or accurate.



What about:

"Do not call -ANYONE- rabbi."

-Jesus.

(Rabbi means teacher)



P.i.C.





.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

dave you take Christ's word out of context? Do you have your parents?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."

How do you deal with that verse in your super literal reading of Christ's words? You cannot tell me it means by comparison because the words are not there. Your reading of Christ's words is incorrect and damaging. You are taching a man made doctrine and exalting it against the knowledge passed down from the beginning of the church through scripture and condeming things that scripture does not in fact condemn.

[daverain]

.



Dear flesh99,

I have talked to you at length.

I will talk to others now

(Please feel free to p.m. me)


Peace in Christ.





.

[Llauralin]

.



Dear flesh99,

I have talked to you at length.

I will talk to others now

(Please feel free to p.m. me)


Peace in Christ.





.

What the... :scratch:

Could you at least answer the question? Or explain:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 --Ephesians 4:11

or

I Corinthians12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

And then explain why you believe that signs and wonders are necessary conformation for leaders and teachers, as those are seperate gifts?

And upon what basis exactly you have decided that all those gifts mentioned above were for apostalic times only? When did you come to this conclusion, what made you aware that all Christians at all times in all places had been so misled?

Forgive me...

[daverain]

What the... :scratch:

Could you at least answer the question? Or explain:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 --Ephesians 4:11orI Corinthians12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

And then explain why you believe that signs and wonders are necessary conformation for leaders and teachers, as those are seperate gifts?

And upon what basis exactly you have decided that all those gifts mentioned above were for apostalic times only? When did you come to this conclusion, what made you aware that all Christians at all times in all places had been so misled?

Forgive me...


First:
-----

I'll deal with everything on -YOUR- post.

Second:
-------

(Apostles , prophets , evangelists, etc)

That was -WAY BACK- under the authority of Apostles (who have long been murdered)

Even when they were here, people -STILL- 'messed up'. (Please read Galatians, to see how the Galatians 'messed up', while Paul was away, for a -little- while (it's been close to 2000 years -NOW-)
What -DENOMINATION- (or other) are you speaking of, when we are to look to teachers (they can't -ALL- be right)

We are warned in scripture about FALSE TEACHINGS/TEACHERS to come (please address this issue, as everyone seems to be ignoring it)


Signs and wonders:
-------------------

"Believe -BECAUSE- of the works I do."

-Jesus.

-AND-

The Bible has been written (The N.T. has been finished) (John 3:16 is there)

There is -NO MORE- message than what has already been given.

(unlike what the 'alien-folks' think: That the 'aliens' have some sort of message for us, that we (=earthlings) are -eagerly- waiting for.)


I feel that I have answered you.








Peace in Christ.



.

[Forest]

(Apostles , prophets , evangelists, etc)

That was -WAY BACK- under the authority of Apostles (who have long been murdered)

Maybe you posted already. How do you arive at the conclusion that God does not give these gifts anymore?.....................

1 corinthians 12:28

[Llauralin]

We are warned in scripture about FALSE TEACHINGS/TEACHERS to come (please address this issue, as everyone seems to be ignoring it)

Signs and wonders:
-------------------

"Believe -BECAUSE- of the works I do."

- Jesus


First, I can't really speak for anyone else here, but I would certaintly say that there are indeed false teachers. However, it is a logical fallacy to suppose that because there are some false teachers, therefore most pastors must necessarily be such. We do have an obligation to test what they say against Scripture, but that does not mean that they are not helpful, or that they are not often true.

Second: Yes, if someone were to proclaim that they were God, signs would be in order. I have yet to hear any pastor say that he was a god, or that he was recieving his teachings directly from God word-for-word as the Old Testement did. If one does, I would call him a flase prophet unless he shows some awfually convincing proofs (unless he says he's God, in which case about the time he starts showing off his signs and wonders is the time I figure he must be the anti-christ, and leave as quickly as possible).

[daverain]

We do have an obligation to test what they say against Scripture, but that does not mean that they are not helpful, or that they are not often true.



Nor does it mean we have to listen to -ANYTHING- 'they' say...

-ANYMORE- than they -have to- listen to us.


P.i.C.

[daverain]

Yes, if someone were to proclaim that they were God,

signs would be in order.






-NO- Apostle was God...

-YET-

to believe that someone is an apostle (they've all been long-dead)

-signs and wonders-...

-WOULD- be in order.

(they -ALL- had them, so you would -KNOW- who to listen to.)




Peace in Christ.




.

[Llauralin]

Well....we don't have to....it would be good for us if we did so though....

[daverain]

.



Well....we don't have to....it would be good for us if we did so though....


No it wouldn't.

That would say there -NEEDS- to be more things told to us than what's already been given.

It would -IMPLY- (to many) that we -DON'T- -YET- have what's needed in The Bible)


The Bible*

(*-NOT- the New World Translation: That's a False Bible: -PRINTED- by the Jehova's Witnesses.)


(and John 3:16)

IS THE FINISHED MESSAGE FROM GOD TO US.





P.i.C.
\






.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

John 3:16 is not the finished message as that would imply that the rest of the New Testament is worthless and un-needed which is by no means the case. Pastors are men who dedicate their life to studying the word of God and presenting it to us. That's the majority of their job. They have time to study things out in context of other scripture and present a fully faceted message. We as normal people have much less time to spend in the word and much less time to make sure our context is correct in what we find. The doctrines you present are a good example of this, you find one or two scriptures and base doctrine on them even though other scripture shows that your doctrine is not correct. We have a society in which we can have men that dedicate their time to studying God's word and presenting it to us in a manner that is more full than we can do for ourselves and still have a job, a family, and time to sleep. Scripture shows us that there is an office/gift of minister and nowhere does it say this stops at any point. To proclaim differently is outside of scripture and by your standard therefore necessarily false.

[Llauralin]

.
It would -IMPLY- (to many) that we -DON'T- -YET- have what's needed in The Bible)


.

That's true. That is why I am considering converting to Orthodoxy. The Bible in extreamly important but not everything.

[daverain]

That's true. That is why I am considering converting to Orthodoxy. The Bible in extreamly important but not everything.



Interesting.

Does 'Orthodoxy',

-NOT-

have 'teachers'

who learn from mere -MEN- ?

(If so, please tell me more. )


-I- have studied the bible, -MOST- of my whole life,

and can -EASILY- say that -MOST- Christians (imo) teach what is -

CONTRARY- to scripture.

(They're given -FALSE INTERPRETATIONS- by mere-men , and teach others accordingly)

(Look at -ALL- the -DIFFERENCES- between the 'denominations')

(What thinkest thou?)


P.i.C.

[Ceris]

Tell me dave, what makes you think that your interpretation of the Bible is more correct/valid than the interpretations "-MOST- Christians"? Throughout your posts you have been teaching many things (according to your interpretation of scripture) yet the whole while saying that you do not put stock in the teachings of "mere men". Considering that you are a man and you are teaching yourself, why should your teachings/interpretations of scripture be held in higher regards than those of other Christian men.

(What thinkest thou?)

[New_Wineskin]

Tell me dave, what makes you think that your interpretation of the Bible is more correct/valid than the interpretations "-MOST- Christians"?

That is the typical idea among most Christians . There are enough threads in thess forums to show that .

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

That is the typical idea among most Christians . There are enough threads in thess forums to show that .

It's one thing to have been tauight something, research it, believe it, and debate it. It is quite another to come up with idea that are strange to almost everyone and assert them as the only right way things can be done which is what dave is doing here. This is how cults are formed to be quite frank. David Koresh read scripture and came up with ideas that were way out of the mainstream and formed a cult based on them. He had no accountability at all. That in and of itself is a great argument for having a board of elders and a congregation that can hold you accountable for the doctrine you are teaching or trying to teach. Here it is other members holding people accountable but there are no consequences for teaching bad doctrine at all at CF, especially when you are called on it and ignore what is being said. It is one thing to present a doctrine and debate it with a mind willing to learn and be wrong, it is quite another to approach it from the position that you are the only one who is right. Grissom on CSI actually had a great line that applies "I am wrong a lot, that's how I get to right!". I have been wrong many times on theology, doctrine, etc and have had to change my views. Every Christian should approach any teaching with a mind willing to learn and a heart open to God.

[MrJim]

As I read through this entire thread I can see the ND folks have their issues too. Daverain-it must be a lonely world in which you dwell. I've lived there for a while and it truly is a desolate wasteland perched upon that summit. It sounds like you have no fellowship at all apart from email/forum and such. God's blessings and guidance to you as you walk your path.

[daverain]

.






Tell me dave, what makes you think that your interpretation of the Bible is more correct/valid than the interpretations "-MOST- Christians"?

Throughout your posts you have been teaching many things (according to your interpretation of scripture) yet the whole while saying that you do not put stock in the teachings of "mere men". Considering that you are a man and you are teaching yourself, why should your teachings/interpretations of scripture be held in higher regards than those of other Christian men.

(What thinkest thou?)




(please call me daverain. My name is not Dave)


Dear Ceris,

I find your replies to be non-hostile.

(we should all be more like this)


Thank you.


(I will therefore reply to you -FIRST- )

-----------------------------------------


Paragraph 1:

Q.)

-WHY- would -MY- interpretations be -BETTER- ?

A.)

-I- have -NOT- gone to a random 'Bible School' , to learn from 'mere men' ,about -THEIR- interpretation of each verse.

(Do you remember the -Galatians- who taught -falsely- that -Christians-,
-MUST- be circumsised according to the law of Moses? (people mistakenly believed them. We -ARE- -OFTEN- warned of False Teachings, that will arise. What about that?)


---------------------------------


(any Christian has as much authority to teach, as any other Christian)

(let us -NOT- -EXALT- ourselves -ABOVE- one another, or 'lord authority')


Paragraph 2 :

Q.)

Why learn from me?


A.)

Besides the answers given in paragraph 1,


I -teach- that people should learn -ONLY- from God.


Furthermore...


I -often say- that -everyone- should test me (in every way), to see if whether or not I'm telling the truth.

(-MANY- 'greedy ones', would -NEVER- do this. )




So....


I -MUST- be tested...


What I say,

-MUST- be viewed with -TOTAL SCEPTISISM-

(like -ALL- others here on earth, should be)...

yet -still- keeping an 'open mind', about things.


However...


All that I teach,

(when I'm -NOT- -REFUTING- others' -false-teachings-)

is that we should learn from -GOD ALONE- (and no -earthly- human) .


Also...


-IF- my -beliefs- seem -contrary- to many Christians...

-SO WHAT- ?


Here's some false teachings (of many people) that Christ refuted:


Do you remember the tables in the temple, that - Jesus - overturned ?

Do you remember the 'prification bowls' ?

Do you remember 'healing on The Sabbath, forbidden ?


(Why -shouldn't- the 'false teachings' of many be refuted?)


--------------------------

One more thing:

(edited)

I (sometimes) -IGNORE- (certain) (hostile)(imo) questions.

-------------------------------------------





That's what I knoweth.



(Happy birthday, brother Ceris.)



Peace in Christ.




.

[Llauralin]

Interesting.

Does 'Orthodoxy',

-NOT-

have 'teachers'

who learn from mere -MEN- ?

(If so, please tell me more. )


-I- have studied the bible, -MOST- of my whole life,

and can -EASILY- say that -MOST- Christians (imo) teach what is -

CONTRARY- to scripture.

(They're given -FALSE INTERPRETATIONS- by mere-men , and teach others accordingly)

(Look at -ALL- the -DIFFERENCES- between the 'denominations')

(What thinkest thou?)


P.i.C.

I'm afraid you misunderstood me; I was saying that it is indeed true that I hold that the Bible is not in and of itself all teaching and interperitation. Holding that view, it would be inconsistant of me to remain Protestant, seeing as one of the primary tenants of Protestant (non-demoninational or otherwise) belief is that of "sola Scriptura." Therefore, I would look for a church that holds some authority, and as I disbelieve in the primacy of the Pope and Purgotory, I would naturally look into Orthodoxy. Therefore, on this issue I disagree with most non-deminational Christians.

I do, however agree with many of those on this thread that your view is so far outside the understanding of the Church through the ages that there is no way I am willing to accept it. To do so is to make Jesus out to be a liar when He promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church. It is also amazingly pridful to hold that you are wiser than pretty much everyone who has ever held Christianity to be true. It is, in my experience generally a good idea when deciding what exactly to believe about Christ and His works to first consider what has been believed "always, everywhere, and by all" among His people, and work from there. Your ideas of the proper place of the assembly of believers and teachers within the Church has been believed nowhere, never, and by none within the Church, to the best of my knowledge. Therefore I would call you a false teacher.

Forgive me....

[daverain]

.



To do so is to make Jesus out to be a liar when He promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church.




Christ's Church is:

-EVERYONE- who TRUSTS in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

(-NOT- some -DEAD- , -DRY- Sunday building, where you need to 'kiss the ring', as it were. )

Let -GOD be true, and -EVERY- man a -LIAR-

(My words: The Man Christ is true , because He is God.)

People have a right to follow -mankind's FALSE teachings- ...

People -ALSO- have a right (so far) to follow -GOD ALONE-.


(overturn the tables)



Peace in Christ.




.

[Llauralin]

To follow God is indeed the best way.

Following God and participating in the life of His Church are not in opposition.

Perhaps you find services "dry" and "dead." I most adamently do not.

[daverain]

.




To follow God is indeed the best way.

Following God and participating in the life of His Church are not in opposition.

Perhaps you find services "dry" and "dead." I most adamently do not.





A Christian -IS- in Christ's Church.

Period.

Therefore 'whatever he/she does' , -IS- 'participating in the life of His Church, as it were.

(Are you someone I know? )



Peace in Christ.




.

[Llauralin]

.
A Christian -IS- in Christ's Church.

Period.

Therefore 'whatever he/she does' , -IS- 'participating in the life of His Church, as it were.


Yet we may choose to alianate ourselves from that very life. We need each other to continue perservering in the Faith, and to grow in understanding. Besides, while God is indeed everywhere and all the time, He is also present in a special way where "two or more and gathered" in His name, and while we must always pray, finding our that our "life is hidden in Christ," yet we may still worship God in a different way, not otherwise possible, in the fellowship of believers. To do so at set times, keeping feasts and fasts together, meeting on the first and last day of the week for Christ's ressurection, is part of living out the belief that God redeems all things, including time, matter, and "Sunday buildings." (is not quite sure if that was coherent...)

(Are you someone I know? )

I very much doubt it

[daverain]

Yet we may choose to alianate ourselves from that very life. We need each other to continue perservering in the Faith, and to grow in understanding.




(Hmmmm.)

Basically you're saying:

We need each other to grow

Yes, BUT...



If one


-ALWAYS-


goes to the

SAME

(possibly dead and dry)

SUNDAY BUILDING..


to hear a

(possibly dead and dry)

'MESSAGE'


(that is supposed to be)

FROM GOD...


Are you really growing?


(are you? )



(gauranteed? )



P.i.C.



.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

(Hmmmm.)

Basically you're saying:

We need each other to grow

Yes, BUT...



If one


-ALWAYS-


goes to the

SAME

(possibly dead and dry)

SUNDAY BUILDING..


to hear a

(possibly dead and dry)

'MESSAGE'


(that is supposed to be)

FROM GOD...


Are you really growing?


(are you? )



(gauranteed? )



P.i.C.



.


The flip side is that studying alone does not gaurantee any right iterpretation either. In fact studying alone with no-one overseeing you can lead to major doctrinal error and cause people to draw away from the body of believers. Church does not gaurantee that you will get it right 100% of the time but at least the pastor is responsible to the elders and the congregation as a whole and if he is teaching bad doctrine can be removed. If someone studies alone and comes up with wrong ideas there is no-one to correct them once their pride takes over and they decide their way is the only right way. Many of the people go on to form groups that accept their bad doctrine and this is how many cults get started, by men who studied alone and will not accept correction from their bretheren. The pastor is a servant of God, a servant of the body of Christ, and a servant of the church where he teaches. He has a body of believers praying for him and that he has to answer to for bad doctrine or false teaching. The man sitting alone in his living room not gethering together has no-one to correct him. So I would say the danger is greater in studying alone than in gathering together as the church did in scripture and following the church structure laid out in scripture.

[Llauralin]

The flip side is that studying alone does not gaurantee any right iterpretation either. In fact studying alone with no-one overseeing you can lead to major doctrinal error and cause people to draw away from the body of believers. Church does not gaurantee that you will get it right 100% of the time but at least the pastor is responsible to the elders and the congregation as a whole and if he is teaching bad doctrine can be removed. If someone studies alone and comes up with wrong ideas there is no-one to correct them once their pride takes over and they decide their way is the only right way. Many of the people go on to form groups that accept their bad doctrine and this is how many cults get started, by men who studied alone and will not accept correction from their bretheren. The pastor is a servant of God, a servant of the body of Christ, and a servant of the church where he teaches. He has a body of believers praying for him and that he has to answer to for bad doctrine or false teaching. The man sitting alone in his living room not gethering together has no-one to correct him. So I would say the danger is greater in studying alone than in gathering together as the church did in scripture and following the church structure laid out in scripture.:amen: :clap:

[daverain]

Attention to all:
---------------

The Bible does -NOT-

tell us to -GATHER TOGETHER-

for -LEARNING-.

Nor does it -TELL- us to 'gather together'


(it -SUGGESTS- to do so. )


(The Bible tells us that "He will write His law on their hearts.")




(God alone, -CAN- teach you The Bible. )





:amen:




P.i.C.


.

[Llauralin]

Attention to all:
---------------

The Bible does -NOT-

tell us to -GATHER TOGETHER-

for -LEARNING-.

Nor does it -TELL- us to 'gather together'


(it -SUGGESTS- to do so. )


(The Bible tells us that "He will write His law on their hearts.")




(God alone, -CAN- teach you The Bible. )





:amen:




P.i.C.


.

And this is an irreconcilable difference between us; I should probably leave now, for we will never agree on this one.

Christ is risen!

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Attention to all:
---------------

The Bible does -NOT-

tell us to -GATHER TOGETHER-

for -LEARNING-.

Nor does it -TELL- us to 'gather together'


(it -SUGGESTS- to do so. )


(The Bible tells us that "He will write His law on their hearts.")




(God alone, -CAN- teach you The Bible. )





:amen:




P.i.C.


.

You have demonstrated that you do not know enough scripture to be devolpling doctrine. Nowhere in scripture does it tell us to not gather togehter, in fact it tells us:

Hebrews 10:25

As you can see we are told to not forsake gathering together as is the habit of some. This habit still exists. The only gathering together we see is for eating and teaching. We see in Romans that preaching is most assuredly allowed is not necessary:

Romans 10:14-15

So your whole doctrine here falls apart in light of scripture. We are told to gather together, or rather not to forsake it and in Romans we see that preachers are necessary for spreading the Gospel. In light of the New Testament as a whole your doctrine is false and dangerous and even spoken directly against.

[daverain]

(sometimes that old deja vu feeling really does mean something)



Attention to all:
---------------


I could easily make a

'Sunday building' ; ...

and 'burden others'

to 'gather there'...

to 'pay me money' ;

and...

'bow down' under 'my authority' ...

but...



That would be -WRONG- (for -anyone- to do that) .





Peace in Christ.




.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

(sometimes that old deja vu feeling really does mean something)



Attention to all:
---------------


I could easily make a

'Sunday building' ; ...

and 'burden others'

to 'gather there'...

to 'pay me money' ;

and...

'bow down' under 'my authority' ...

but...



That would be -WRONG- (for -anyone- to do that) .





Peace in Christ.




.

We are told to gather, you fail to address the scripture that disproves statements you have plainly made. We are also told in Romans, right there in scripture that preachers are necessary. Sure some of them teach wrong things, we are only human after all, that's where accountability to a congregation and board of elders comes in. Scripture is plain on the offices of the church and that preachers are necessary. I have show that is more than suggested that we forsake not gathering together. You are teaching something that is directly against scripture. I am sure there are ministers out there like you describe but by and large it is untrue. You are teaching doctrine that is against scripture and therefore necessarily wrong.

[Llauralin]

But why would God give gifts of preaching and teaching if they are unessecary...?

[daverain]

Attention to all:
---------------
We are -NOT- -TOLD- to 'gather'

(as if our -SALVATION- depended on it) ...


-AND-


'teaching' and

'preaching',



were for -THAT-

-TIME-,


-UNTIL- the

NEW TESTAMENT


was


-COMPLETE- .




(There. I've 'addressed' the issues, as it were. )






Peace in Christ.




.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Attention to all:
---------------
We are -NOT- -TOLD- to 'gather'

(as if our -SALVATION- depended on it) ...


Not one of us has even implied it is a salvation issue. We are merely refuting your claims that it is better not to go to church. You have now changed your claim since it has been shown you are wrong on what the Bible speaks to in assembling. Now how do you explain that you seem to be advocating "the habit of some" in forsaking the gathering together?


-AND-


'teaching' and

'preaching',



were for -THAT-

-TIME-,


-UNTIL- the

NEW TESTAMENT


was


-COMPLETE- .


Prove this with scripture. Show us where the Bible says that once it is complete there is no more need for techaers and preachers. Scripture only and not your opinion here. I will give some help, you cannot do it because it does not exist. Scripture is clear on the issue and you won't find any verses refuting Romans saying preachers are necessary. And when was scripture complete anyway? I want you to answer at what point was scripture complete? The councils all included the dueterocanonicals so if scripture was complete then we are using incomplete Bibles now. If scripture was complete when the reformers threw out those books then you will have to pick which reformer was right since Luther wanted to toss James and Revelation as well. So when was scripture completed? Please give your view on this as well.



(There. I've 'addressed' the issues, as it were. )






Peace in Christ.




.

Oh we are just getting started. You have opened more holes in your doctrine and changed what you have already stated.

[Llauralin]

'teaching' and

'preaching',



were for -THAT-

-TIME-,


-UNTIL- the

NEW TESTAMENT


was


-COMPLETE- .



:scratch:

I just have no idea where you got that from. If it's from reading the Bible and interperating it all by yourself as your own little pope, then it migh