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Lockheed

12th April 2005, 08:22 PM

While the thread is locked, I want to clarify something I said in a previous thread that drew the ire of some posters here. Regarding "Mary" and JPII's devotion to her, I didn't bring it up to simply anger people, but to clearly express what BBAS 64 (and myself) were saying. Now, you can dislike what I wrote but you cannot deny the facts of JPII's beliefs and the implications thereof.

I didn't "bring up Mary" to bash Catholics, but quoted John Paul II in regards to his faith in response to what others were saying against BBAS 64. The language I used was direct quote from Catholic websites.

In his encyclical "Redemptoris Mater" John Paul II wrote:
"And now, standing at the foot of the Cross, Mary is the witness, humanly speaking, of the complete negation of these words. On that wood of the Cross her Son hangs in agony as one condemned. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows . . . he was despised, and we esteemed him not: as one destroyed (cf. Is. 53:3-5). How great, how heroic then is the obedience of faith shown by Mary in the face of Gods unsearchable judgments! How completely she abandons herself to God without reserve, offering the full assent of the intellect and the will to him whose ways are inscrutable(cf. Rom. 11:33)! And how powerful too is the action of grace in her soul, how all-pervading is the influence of the Holy Spirit and of his light and power! Through this faith Mary is perfectly united with Christ in his self-emptying. For Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men: precisely on Golgotha humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross (cf. Phil. 2:5-8). At the foot of the Cross Mary shares through faith in the shocking mystery of this self-emptying. This is perhaps the deepest kenosisof faith in human history. Through faith the Mother shares in the death of her Son, in his redeeming death; but in contrast with the faith of the disciples who fled, hers was far more enlightened. On Golgotha, Jesus through the Cross definitively confirmed that he was the sign of contradiction foretold by Simeon. At the same time, there were also fulfilled on Golgotha the words which Simeon had addressed to Mary: and a sword will pierce through your own soul also. Yes, truly blessed is she who believed!"

I'll allow the man to speak for himself. Thus, as his motto states: "Totus Tuus sum Maria"... " Mary, I am totally yours".

Matthan

12th April 2005, 09:07 PM

I, too, have pointed up the extent of the late pope's Mary worship. He made no secret of his love and devotion to the mother of Jesus. At Denver, at an extremely large youth gathering, he put the entirity of their eternal protection in the hands of Mary, NOT JESUS AND/OR GOD! That was his blessing to them!

If the Mods will not let someone post the exact words of any person (such as was in this particular case) for fear of offending someone, then I would respectfully suggest that the Mods need to take a step back and do some Christian self-reflection. Jesus was not hesitant to offend any person with His truth (check out John 6:61 or any of the verses with Him tossing out the moneychangers or talking to the Pharisees), and that is how we are taught to act for Him, too.

When the truth of any subject in Christianity becomes offensive to anyone, and we are to bow to the wishes of the offended person rather than defend God's Truth, then where does that leave us as a forum of supposed Christ-believers?

Matthan <J><

ZiSunka

12th April 2005, 09:11 PM

John Paul is also the one who, after 2000 years of the church saying that Mary is not the woman with the crown of stars in Revelation 12 and that it is error to impose the identity of Mary on this woman who clearly represents Israel, made it doctrine that it IS Mary and that she should be venerated more for her identity as the woman with the crown of stars.

There is no doubt that JP was devoted to Mary. Even his own words and writings comfirm this.

Stefan Davidovich

12th April 2005, 09:13 PM

Perhaps it is just a little disrespectul to talk this way about the pope so shortly after his death.

Let's discuss theology NOT people.

Lockheed

12th April 2005, 09:18 PM

The Pope is the head of the Roman Catholic Church, he, along with their magisterium DEFINE their theology... thus Il Papa and his assumed infallibility is a theological topic, one that can and should, even in this hour, be discussed with civility amongst BAPTIST brothers and sisters.

Given the recent remarks by evangelical leaders to the effect of the Pope's evident welcoming into heaven (specifically on the basis that he was a great guy who did great things, it is imperitive that we as Baptists discuss such things and clarify where we stand and what we believe, even in the light of threat of opposition.

If it were anyone else who died, be it a criminal or a political figure, we'd be talking about it. It seems that since he was the leader of the Catholic Church (and apparently all of Christendom according to many media outlets), he's a valid topic for discussion. Unless we should be silent the next time anyone dies?

ZiSunka

12th April 2005, 09:23 PM

Perhaps it is just a little disrespectul to talk this way about the pope so shortly after his death.

Let's discuss theology NOT people.

It's disrespectful to discuss that the pope was devoted to Mary? He himself often spoke of it. Why would it be wrong for us to say what he spoke of himself?

Stefan Davidovich

12th April 2005, 09:25 PM

Given the recent remarks by evangelical leaders to the effect of the Pope's evident welcoming into heaven

I'm sure it was a rich welcome! God does not value us by our theology.

Unless we should be silent the next time anyone dies?

I think we should always be careful not to speak against people - we can speak against theology but i think we stand on dangerous ground when we attack people. Also, out of respect for those who mourn we have a duty to remain silent...if we are going to say things that will hurt those who mourn.

Perhaps the thread should shift its focus and talk about the role of Mary in Baptist theology...I would appreciate it if we did not speak against the pope. I do not believe it pleases God.

Your brother in Christ,

Stephen

BBAS 64

13th April 2005, 08:12 AM

Perhaps it is just a little disrespectul to talk this way about the pope so shortly after his death.

Let's discuss theology NOT people.

Good Day, Stephen

I am not being disrespecful, I disagree with the man's theology and reguard it as contray to the Scripture, or else I would be a member of his denomination.

When the leader of the Mormon denomination passes are we to not talk about the errors of theology held to by the LDS church and taught by the "passed" person?

Peace to u,

Bill

SumTinWong

13th April 2005, 08:21 AM

Good Day, Stephen

I am not being disrespecful, I disagree with the man's theology and reguard it as contray to the Scripture, or else I would be a member of his denomination.
Before I start I am sorry I was disresepctful to you yesterday. I should have said what I said in another way, and I regret saying it in that manner.

When the leader of the Mormon denomination passes are we to not talk about the errors of theology held to by the LDS church and taught by the "passed" person?
Apples and oranges. The LDS is not by any means a Christian organization, and the Catholic church is. To say that they are not is to say that there was a lull or a non-Christian influenence in the world for hundreds of years before our denominations were formed. Are there errors int eh Catholic church. Yes. Roughly 95% of Marian doctrines are in my opinion 100% false. I do not agree with Papal supremecy, praying to saints, yadda, yadda, but to say that they are going to hell is IMHO pathetic.

Once again, JMHO

Metanoia02

13th April 2005, 09:22 AM

In his encyclical "Redemptoris Mater" John Paul II wrote: "And now, standing at the foot of the Cross, Mary is the witness, humanly speaking, of the complete negation of these words. On that wood of the Cross her Son hangs in agony as one condemned. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows . . . he was despised, and we esteemed him not: as one destroyed (cf. Is. 53:3-5). How great, how heroic then is the obedience of faith shown by Mary in the face of Gods unsearchable judgments! How completely she abandons herself to God without reserve, offering the full assent of the intellect and the will to him whose ways are inscrutable(cf. Rom. 11:33)! And how powerful too is the action of grace in her soul, how all-pervading is the influence of the Holy Spirit and of his light and power! Through this faith Mary is perfectly united with Christ in his self-emptying. For Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men: precisely on Golgotha humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross (cf. Phil. 2:5-8). At the foot of the Cross Mary shares through faith in the shocking mystery of this self-emptying. This is perhaps the deepest kenosisof faith in human history. Through faith the Mother shares in the death of her Son, in his redeeming death; but in contrast with the faith of the disciples who fled, hers was far more enlightened. On Golgotha, Jesus through the Cross definitively confirmed that he was the sign of contradiction foretold by Simeon. At the same time, there were also fulfilled on Golgotha the words which Simeon had addressed to Mary: and a sword will pierce through your own soul also. Yes, truly blessed is she who believed!"

What is so disturbing about this quote?

Matthan

13th April 2005, 10:30 AM

"And now, standing at the foot of the Cross, Mary is the witness, humanly speaking, of the complete negation of these words. On that wood of the Cross her Son hangs in agony as one condemned. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows . . . he was despised, and we esteemed him not: as one destroyed (cf. Is. 53:3-5). How great, how heroic then is the obedience of faith shown by Mary in the face of Gods unsearchable judgments! How completely she abandons herself to God without reserve, offering the full assent of the intellect and the will to him whose ways are inscrutable(cf. Rom. 11:33)! And how powerful too is the action of grace in her soul, how all-pervading is the influence of the Holy Spirit and of his light and power! Through this faith Mary is perfectly united with Christ in his self-emptying. For Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men: precisely on Golgotha humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross (cf. Phil. 2:5-8). At the foot of the Cross Mary shares through faith in the shocking mystery of this self-emptying. This is perhaps the deepest kenosisof faith in human history. Through faith the Mother shares in the death of her Son, in his redeeming death; but in contrast with the faith of the disciples who fled, hers was far more enlightened. On Golgotha, Jesus through the Cross definitively confirmed that he was the sign of contradiction foretold by Simeon. At the same time, there were also fulfilled on Golgotha the words which Simeon had addressed to Mary: and a sword will pierce through your own soul also. Yes, truly blessed is she who believed!"
What is so disturbing about this quote?

What is "so disturbing" here. Let's take a look. First, "Mary is the witness".
Why is Mary even mentioned at all? She adds nothing to Christianity, does she? When Jesus told us, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."(John 6:47), did He leave out a mention of Mary by accident? When He told us, "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."(John 8:12), did He forget to mention Mary? When He told us, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die." (John 11:25-26), did He once again fail to give Mary additional credit? And, when He told us, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6), did He inadvertantly forget to tells us, "and also by my mother Mary?

So, who exactly is Mary? She is the earthly mother of Jesus. That is it, folks! That is all that she is! She is not any kind of savior for Christians. She is not any kind of mediator between God and man. And she certainly is not the "mother of God!"

Certain individuals and denominations claim, to various degrees, that she is all of these things. That is blasphemy to God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, any way you cut it. Mary has absolutely NO PLACE anywhere in Christianity. Our faith in Jesus as the only begotten Son of God, or "Christianity", is a covenant with God Himself. God gives man two choices in this New Covenant. We can believe in Jesus as His Son, OR NOT! That's it! There are NO OTHER OPTIONS, as far as God is concerned. It's Jesus, or eternal perdition. Take your choice.

So, any time I (personally) read about someone saying that Mary can get things from God that Jesus can not, or that someone should pray to Mary (for any reason), or that Mary is anything special in Christianity, I take great offense as a Bible believing Christian. Such statements are so much spiritual tripe! But, more importantly, statements such as these concerning Mary also serve to lead innocent people, individuals who want to serve Jesus and be part of His blessed Church, away from Him. They create an impassable barrier between themselves and Him. He is the only way, but Mary is the way. He is the only truth, but Mary is the truth. These are lies! They serve only to lead people away from God, and never to Him!

Yes, I am greatly offended by spiritual statements about Mary being anything important to Christianity. She is not. There is NOTHING Mary can do for any person that might in any way change, alter, or mitigate our decision to accept Jesus as the Son of God and thus receive God's grace. And, there is NOTHING any person can do to change, alter or mitigate his or her ultimate fate by calling on Mary. In fact, any person who relies on Mary with regard to their ultimate fate will likely receive their just reward, as it is written in Scripture.

Matthan <J><

Metanoia02

13th April 2005, 10:48 AM

Thanks for your response. Very enlightening.

Gold Dragon

13th April 2005, 11:04 AM

And she certainly is not the "mother of God!"

Just an FYI that Catholics would also say that Mary is not the "Mother of God the Father".

The title Mother of God was initially proposed in the Council of Ephesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Ecumenical_Council) (431) to combat heresies that challenged the Trinity, to reinforce that Jesus was both fully God and fully man.

So the title Mother of God is about the identity of Jesus and not Mary.

Gold Dragon

13th April 2005, 11:13 AM

Mary has absolutely NO PLACE anywhere in Christianity.

She has a special place in Christianity. She obeyed the words of Gabriel. She gave birth to Jesus. She took part in his first miracle. She raised him as a child. She witnessed his death on the cross.

NASB - Luke 1:28-30 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=Luke+1&section=0&translation=nas&oq=mt%25201&new=1&nb=mt&ng=1&ncc=1)

And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."

But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was.

The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God."

NASB - Luke 1:41-42 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=Luke+1&section=0&translation=nas&oq=mt%25201&new=1&nb=mt&ng=1&ncc=1)

When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. And she cried out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

I don't worship or pray to Mary, but she holds a place in Christianity. Maybe a little overemphasized in Catholicism and a little underemphasized by some Baptists.

Gold Dragon

13th April 2005, 11:19 AM

Some Catholic perspectives on Mary.

Catholic Outlook : Common Objections (http://catholicoutlook.com/objmary3.php)

It is blasphemous to worship Mary. To worship anyone other than God is pure idolatry!

I could not agree more. That’s why Catholics do not worship Mary. Period. To do so would indeed be idolatrous, and no one would be more grieved by such wickedness than Mary herself, whose job is always to point people toward her Son. For the record, the Catholic Church condemns the worship of anything other than God. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, “Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc.”1 (http://catholicoutlook.com/objmary3.php#1) Mary is a creature, like us, and she should be honored for her great faith, but she must never be worshipped. Referring to Mary specifically, the Church says, “no creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer.”2 (http://catholicoutlook.com/objmary3.php#2)
...

Catholic Outlook : Common Objections (http://catholicoutlook.com/objmary4.php)

It is wrong to pray to Mary and the other dead saints, because the Bible says there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

The phrase “praying to the saints” is probably an unfortunate one, because in contemporary usage the word “pray” has come to refer only to that form of worship by which we praise God and humbly petition Him. Catholics certainly do not pray to the saints in that sense. However, the word “pray” has an older, now archaic meaning. It used to mean simply “ask,” whether the object of the request was God or a person. For example, in the King James translation of Acts 27:34 (javascript:void(0);), Paul says to some sailors, “Wherefore I pray you to take some meat.” In other words, “I ask you to eat some meat.” There are literally hundreds of examples of the word “pray” used in this manner in the King James Bible:
...

Epiphanygirl

13th April 2005, 11:20 AM

Just an FYI that Catholics would also say that Mary is not the "Mother of God the Father".

The title Mother of God was initially proposed in the Council of Ephesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Ecumenical_Council) (431) to combat heresies that challenged the Trinity, to reinforce that Jesus was both fully God and fully man.

So the title Mother of God is about the identity of Jesus and not Mary.:thumbsup:

Lockheed

13th April 2005, 03:17 PM

Lockheed

13th April 2005, 03:19 PM

Catholics certainly do not pray to the saints in that sense. However, the word “pray” has an older, now archaic meaning. It used to mean simply “ask,” whether the object of the request was God or a person. For example, in the King James translation of Acts 27:34 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);), Paul says to some sailors, “Wherefore I pray you to take some meat.” In other words, “I ask you to eat some meat.” There are literally hundreds of examples of the word “pray” used in this manner in the King James Bible

Just a few miles from my home:

http://www.grownmencry.com/img/photcol_OurLady_detail.jpg

This is the 32' statue of "Our Lady of Peace" at the chapel of the same name in Santa Clara, CA. (The different colored boxes appear to be for graphic effect.)

Metanoia02

13th April 2005, 03:30 PM

Catholics certainly do not pray to the saints in that sense. However, the word “pray” has an older, now archaic meaning. It used to mean simply “ask,” whether the object of the request was God or a person. For example, in the King James translation of Acts 27:34 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);), Paul says to some sailors, “Wherefore I pray you to take some meat.” In other words, “I ask you to eat some meat.” There are literally hundreds of examples of the word “pray” used in this manner in the King James Bible

Been there done that...

What are these folks doing:

http://www.grownmencry.com/img/photcol_OurLady_detail.jpg

This is the 32' statue of "Our Lady of Peace" at the chapel of the same name in Santa Clara, CA.

Why don't you ask them.

Lockheed

13th April 2005, 04:08 PM

[QUOTE=Lockheed]

Why don't you ask them.

I have... I maintain a message board elsewhere, and have had many communications with Roman Catholics on this subject. Here's my findings and some helpful tips for fellow Baptists on considering the doctrine of 'communion of the saints' as presented by the Roman church.

--
Roman Catholics are quick to note that they do not "worship" the saints. They will however state that they pay honor to them. The theological term used to express honour paid to the saints is "dulia", while "latria" means worship given to God alone, and "hyperdulia" the veneration offered to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Yet even this is far from explaining prayers directed to dead saints and the mother of Christ.
Exo 20: 4
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
Keep in mind that when the children of Israel made and worshiped the golden calf they called it YHWH, the Lord who brought them out of Egypt. They claimed to be worshiping God, they never claimed to be worshiping an idol.

In fact, no one worships an idol, they use the idol as a gestalt or means to consider the one they are worshiping or contacting. We should be very careful therefore to consider what it is we 'use' when attempting to worship the invisible God.

Yes, I realize that Catholics claim not to be 'worshiping' Mary or the saints, even while saying they honor the saints with dulia and Mary with hyper-dulia they're doing service to them, paying homage to them. So removing the whole question of "worship" out of the equation, the indication from Scripture is that the dead should not be contacted. Isa 8:19

When they say to you, "Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?

Surely one could say "well we don't use mediums or spiritists to pray to saints", but regardless, the point of this verse is to show that the people of God should consult Him.

The usual rebuttal to this is "well, we're all alive in Christ, God is not the God of the dead but the living." And we Protestants and Baptists agree, the saints in heaven are, in a sense, alive, but they are also physically "dead".

The Apostle Paul, in seeking to comfort those believers who recently lost loved ones either to disease or martyrdom says: 1 Thes. 4:13-19

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

In this passage in 1 Thes. Paul establishes our doctrine of the death of believers and the hope we have. Paul contrasts "those who are alive and remain" with those "dead in Christ" who "have fallen asleep."

Notice what Paul does not say... he does not say "don't mourn for the dead, you can pray to them for their intercession", he says that they will rise again.

We recognize that the dead in Christ are in fact spiritually alive and now in the presence of the Almighty, just as John writes in Revelation: Rev 6:9-10

When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

Yet maintaining that the believing dead are in fact spiritually alive and with Christ now in no way negates the fact that they are also physically dead. Paul calls them 'asleep' and by this he means in relation to us (not that their soul sleeps). Just as a wife or husband who has fallen asleep, one cannot very well ask them to intercede on your behalf unless they are first awakened.

Therefore the believers who die are, in fact, physically dead, thus the passage of Isa 8:19 must apply. Likewise Ecc 9:5-6... Ecc 9:5-6

For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

The dead are cut-off from us, they have no understanding nor do they share in what goes on here.

The final Roman Catholic response is to point out that Christ spoke with Elijah and Moses on the mount of transfiguration. We might also do well to note that Saul had the spirit of Samuel brought up to consult, thus there are occasions in which God allows those on Earth to glimpse and communicate with the dead, yet it is not normative. In fact of these two occasions we can only be sure of the Christ's encounter as what happened with the witch at En-dor remains questionable and is clearly not something the Roman Catholic would want tied to their belief.

So, Christ appeared and spoke with Elijah and Moses on the mount of transfiguration... so what? How does this, in any way, establish the idea that the dead can hear prayers and intercede on behalf of the living? One must note that in the passage Elijah represents the prophets and Moses represents the Law, thus fulfilling prophecy and God's plan. Jesus, God incarnate, was not establishing a doctrine of ongoing communication of believers with the dead by standing with Moses and Eljiah.

Finally, keep in mind that the ongoing 'communion' between the dead saints is an official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, it is not a particular schism of individuals. Therefore, while seeking to promote the truth of Scripture, do not mistake the Church's official teachings with specific stubborness on the part of individuals. Always seek to express these truths in a respectful manner.

Gold Dragon

13th April 2005, 04:20 PM

Lockheed, I must commend you on a very fair analysis of this often emotionally divisive topic. :thumbsup:

Metanoia02

13th April 2005, 04:20 PM

Lockheed,

We do not consult the saints. We do not have conversations with them. We simply ask them to pray for us.

Lockheed

13th April 2005, 04:42 PM

Lockheed,

We do not consult the saints. We do not have conversations with them. We simply ask them to pray for us.

Excellent, then the fact that Christ appeared with Elijah and Moses should be stricken from every Catholic e-poligist's book of arguments? :)

In honesty, however, there have been apparitions of saints and Mary in which said indivdiuals allegedly had bi-directional communication, including but not limited to the Fatima apparition in Portugal. Secondly, a website for common Catholic prayers lists the following:

Prayers to angels:Holy Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray; and do you, O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God cast into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who wander through the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

We, thy happy clients, yearn to enjoy thy special protection. Obtain for us from God a share of thy sturdy courage; pray that we may have a strong and tender love for our Redeemer and, in every danger or temptation, be invincible against the enemy of our souls. (to Michael)

To MaryO Virgin Immaculate, Mother of God and my Mother, from your sublime heights turn your eyes of pity on my. Filled with confidence in your goodness and knowing full well your power, I beg you to extend to me your assistance in the journey of life, which is so full of dangers for my soul.... Saint Ephraem of Edessa

In every engagement with the infernal powers, we shall always certainly conquer by having recourse to the Mother of God, Who is also our Mother, saying and repeating again and again: "We fly to thy patronage, O holy Mother of God: we fly to thy patronage, O holy Mother of God." Oh how many victories have not the faithful gained over hell, by having recourse to Mary with this short but most powerful prayer! Thus is was that the great servant of god, Sister Mary Crucified, of the Order of St. Benedict, always overcame the devils. - St. Alphonsus Liguori in Hail Holy

Mother of Perpetual Help, you have been blessed and favored by God. You became not only the Mother of the Redeemer, but the Mother of the redeemed as well. We come to you today as you loving children. Watch over us and take care of us...

To SaintsGood St. Anne, you were especially favored by God to be the mother of the most holy Virgin Mary, the Mother of our Savior. By your power with your most pure daughter and with her divine Son, kindly obtain for us the grace and the favor we now seek. Please secure for us also forgiveness of our past sins, the strength to perform faithfully our daily duties and the help we need to persevere in the love of Jesus and Mary. Amen.

...I promise you, O blessed St. Jude, to be ever mindful of this great favor, and I will never cease to honor you as my special and powerful patron and to do all in my power to encourage devotion to you. Amen.

Relying on Your goodness, O God, we humbly ask you, by the intercession of your servant, Saint Lucy, to give perfect vision to our eyes, that we may serve for your greater honor and glory...

The website, "catholic.org", has many stories of 'encounters' with angels and prayers to them. Along with the alleged visions of folks like Anne Catherine Emmerich who, according to Newadvent.org "counseled in a mysterious way the successor of St. Peter...(and) converse(d) familiarly with the Child Jesus (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm)."

You may not converse with the Saints or Mary, but it is Catholic doctrine that one can. My point, again, is not to repudiate you specifically, or what you believe but to honestly portray the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church in the light of Scripture and prepare my fellow Baptists so that they can intelligently discuss these matters with their Roman Catholic friends without presenting strawmen arguments.

Matthan

13th April 2005, 05:08 PM

She has a special place in Christianity. She obeyed the words of Gabriel. She gave birth to Jesus. She took part in his first miracle. She raised him as a child. She witnessed his death on the cross.

I don't worship or pray to Mary, but she holds a place in Christianity. Maybe a little overemphasized in Catholicism and a little underemphasized by some Baptists.

GD, if you go back and read my post, you will see that I gave Mary full credit for being the earthly mother of Jesus. But she does not have any place in Christianity, which is our belief in Jesus as the only begotten Son of God. If we believe in Him, we are given God's grace to eternal life. Mary does not fit into THAT situation, at least not to my way of thinking....

Matthan <J><

BBAS 64

13th April 2005, 05:13 PM

Before I start I am sorry I was disresepctful to you yesterday. I should have said what I said in another way, and I regret saying it in that manner.

Good Day, Uncle Bud

Thank you very much for the kindness you have extended here :hug:

Apples and oranges. The LDS is not by any means a Christian organization, and the Catholic church is. To say that they are not is to say that there was a lull or a non-Christian influenence in the world for hundreds of years before our denominations were formed. Are there errors int eh Catholic church. Yes. Roughly 95% of Marian doctrines are in my opinion 100% false. I do not agree with Papal supremecy, praying to saints, yadda, yadda, but to say that they are going to hell is IMHO pathetic.

Once again, JMHO

I do not see it as apples and oranges, I agree that the LDS is not presenting a true Gospel in the things that it teaches and by extention underminds the very nature of the truth and of God in the things that it teaches as doctrine and are in error.

I do not have to say there was a non Christian influence in the world for hundrends of years, you assume that the teaching of the RCC are the same today as they were in the days past.

If IYO 95 % of the Marian dogma that has been promulgated for the last 400 years, and enbraced and expanded by the last Bishop of Rome to the th' degree are in 100% error and I assume that you draw some support from Scripture.

Do you also believe that this action by Rome has no effect on the nature of the truth and by extention God himself in any way shape or form? I never said that any one was going to hell expictly, what I said that if one belives contray to the Faith one given to the saints then we should contend for that Faith.

From the writting of John Paul:

This prayer was written by the Holy Father to
Mary Immaculate

Totally yours,
Immaculate Conception, Mary my Mother,
Live in me, Act in me,
Speak in me and through me,
Think your thoughts in my mind,
Love through my heart,
Give me your dispositions and feelings,
Teach, lead me and guide me to Jesus,
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior,
Possess my soul,
Take over my entire personality and life, replace it with Yourself,
Incline me to constant adoration,
Pray in me and through me,
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.

http://prayers.viarosa.com/TotusTuus.html

Peace to u,

Bill

Lockheed

13th April 2005, 05:13 PM

GD, if you go back and read my post, you will see that I gave Mary full credit for being the earthly mother of Jesus. But she does not have any place in Christianity, which is our belief in Jesus as the only begotten Son of God. If we believe in Him, we are given God's grace to eternal life. Mary does not fit into THAT situation, at least not to my way of thinking....

Matthan <J><

Well... as for not having a "place in Christianity", I would disagree with such language. Just as the woman who washed Christ's feet and of her He said: "wherever the gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be spoken of in memory of her". I believe the same must be said of Mary who is indeed Christ's mother, the chosen vessel of the Holy Spirit. She's an example of Christian faithfulness and devotion.

However, in other respects I firmly agree.

BBAS 64

13th April 2005, 05:16 PM

Lockheed,

We do not consult the saints. We do not have conversations with them. We simply ask them to pray for us.

Good Day, Met

I have a quick question if you do not mind, from your point of view why ask, if praying is a good thing to do should "they" do it with out a request from you?

I hope I have asked that clearly,

Peace to u,

Bill

Metanoia02

13th April 2005, 05:34 PM

Good Day, Met

I have a quick question if you do not mind, from your point of view why ask, if praying is a good thing to do should "they" do it with out a request from you?

I hope I have asked that clearly,

Peace to u,

Bill

I do think they pray for us even if we don't ask. We are as you know a communion of saints. We pray for each other, even people we don't know. If I understand your question "why bother if they are already praying for you?". Good question. Personally I feel as though they are my brothers and sisters like the ones I have here on earth that I ask to pray for me. We all share a divine filiation as children of God. Although I do not pretend to know fully what happens on the "other side", I am comforted that I can ask the siants through out the ages to pray for me, even if they are already doing it.

aReformedPatriot

13th April 2005, 05:34 PM

This prayer was written by the Holy Father to
Mary Immaculate

Totally yours,
Immaculate Conception, Mary my Mother,
Live in me, Act in me,
Speak in me and through me,
Think your thoughts in my mind,
Love through my heart,
Give me your dispositions and feelings,
Teach, lead me and guide me to Jesus,
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior,
Possess my soul,
Take over my entire personality and life, replace it with Yourself,
Incline me to constant adoration,
Pray in me and through me,
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.

http://prayers.viarosa.com/TotusTuus.html

http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-left.gif

:sick: I'd never say a prayer worded as such. Id change out Mary for the Holy Ghost, at least then it'd be biblically sound.

Lockheed

13th April 2005, 05:42 PM

I do think they pray for us even if we don't ask. We are as you know a communion of saints. We pray for each other, even people we don't know.

Please address my previous post, I think I clearly outlined that neither are we commended, commanded or even claimed able to pray to the "dead in Christ" nor do they have share of what goes on here.

If I understand your question "why bother if they are already praying for you?". Good question. Personally I feel as though they are my brothers and sisters like the ones I have here on earth that I ask to pray for me. We all share a divine filiation as children of God. Although I do not pretend to know fully what happens on the "other side", I am comforted that I can ask the siants through out the ages to pray for me, even if they are already doing it.

Please provide Scriptural support for this belief.

SumTinWong

13th April 2005, 05:51 PM

I do not see it as apples and oranges, I agree that the LDS is not presenting a true Gospel in the things that it teaches and by extention underminds the very nature of the truth and of God in the things that it teaches as doctrine and are in error.
So do alot of Baptists, Bill. There are doctrinal errors that the Baptist churches teach as well, are they now a cult?

I do not have to say there was a non Christian influence in the world for hundrends of years, you assume that the teaching of the RCC are the same today as they were in the days past.
Not necessarily the truth. I do not assume they have been consistant, but present. Many of the same practices they have today stem from practices back then. The historical writings of the ECF prove this.

If IYO 95 % of the Marian dogma that has been promulgated for the last 400 years, and enbraced and expanded by the last Bishop of Rome to the th' degree are in 100% error and I assume that you draw some support from Scripture.
Common sense, reason, and scripture, yes I draw from all of these.

Do you also believe that this action by Rome has no effect on the nature of the truth and by extention God himself in any way shape or form?
No the truth will always remain. Whether or not people will see the truth, that is different.

I never said that any one was going to hell expictly, what I said that if one belives contray to the Faith one given to the saints then we should contend for that Faith.
Well you did applauad the people for standing up for what they believed in and did not seperate yourself from that stance they took, so it was logical to assume you agreed.

Metanoia02

13th April 2005, 05:53 PM

Please address my previous post, I think I clearly outlined that neither are we commended, commanded or even claimed able to pray to the "dead in Christ" nor do they have share of what goes on here.

Please provide Scriptural support for this belief.

Sorry, but this is not the place to debate this. This is your forum. Thank you for letting me participate up to this point. By the looks of it you have studied this debate point-counterpoint and it would not serve any purpose to have a debate over something that has been debated to death.

SumTinWong

13th April 2005, 05:53 PM

Please provide Scriptural support for this belief.
Why go there when you know only Protestants are bound to scripture alone?

Lockheed

13th April 2005, 06:06 PM

So do alot of Baptists, Bill. There are doctrinal errors that the Baptist churches teach as well, are they now a cult?

There's a clear difference between an occasional 'doctrinal error' and an error declared as a dogma. When the Roman Catholic church declares that belief in the Immaculate Conception is a dogma, and something that must be believed for salvation, that's one thing. Its another level all together to state: "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema."

This isn't a dispute over which version of the Bible is better, this is the declaration that sinners are justified not by faith alone but by faith plus 'action' and the condemnation of those who believe as Martin Luther did.

Of course, the tragedy here is that many modern evangelicals don't see anything wrong with such statements. Surely the Reformation was all a misunderstanding?

Not necessarily the truth. I do not assume they have been consistant, but present. Many of the same practices they have today stem from practices back then. The historical writings of the ECF prove this.

But the Catholic belief is not just that they have similar beliefs or that they stem from practices back then but that there has been a universal, unbroken faith throughout history. The dogmas of the Roman Catholic church are said to be based on the "universal consent" of the ECFs... the writings of those same ECFs disprove this. One can, however, read the ECFs and impose upon their writings beliefs which did not develop until much later, as is often the case with said dogmas. The very fact that the ECFs debated on the identity of the "Rock" in the book of Matthew proves that the foundation for the Papacy and thus Papal infallibility and the other related dogmas are later developments.

Common sense, reason, and scripture, yes I draw from all of these.

Keep in mind that the Marian dogmas were declared in the 1950s and have not been universally held by the Roman Catholic church, whatsoever. The very idea that there is a mediatrix of 'all graces' through whom salvation comes to all believers should cause us concern... if nothing else the ongoing re-presentation and re-sacrifice of the Mass most certainly should.

Well you did applauad the people for standing up for what they believed in and did not seperate yourself from that stance they took, so it was logical to assume you agreed.

There are a lot of "good people" in this world, but salvation is based on grace, not works.

aReformedPatriot

13th April 2005, 06:10 PM

Why go there when you know only Protestants are bound to scripture alone?

I do think they draw it out of the Apocrypha somewhere. But I wouldnt place money on it. Perhaps someone could PM me an apocryphal proof-text (if it doesnt stem from tradition) as I'd be interested in saving it for myself anyways.

SumTinWong

13th April 2005, 06:21 PM

There's a clear difference between an occasional 'doctrinal error' and an error declared as a dogma.
I am not talking of occasional errors I am talking of faulty Baptist doctrines, that are still held today.

There are a lot of "good people" in this world, but salvation is based on grace, not works.
In your humble opinion, I assume? Either way a Catholic would agree with you if you would shut up long enough to listen. They believe that it is by God's grace that we are saved.

Lockheed

13th April 2005, 06:30 PM

Why go there when you know only Protestants are bound to scripture alone?

Exactly... :) Therefore if the Catholic wishes to provide an infallible interpretation stating that the verses I've provided say otherwise, perhaps we can start there.

Lockheed

13th April 2005, 06:45 PM

I am not talking of occasional errors I am talking of faulty Baptist doctrines, that are still held today.

Like?

There are a lot of "good people" in this world, but salvation is based on grace, not works.
In your humble opinion, I assume?

No, on the basis of what Christ and His apostles state in the God-breathed word. It is not my opinion that I seek to promote, but the Word of God.

Either way a Catholic would agree with you if you would shut up long enough to listen.

Yah... that's the ticket. :wave:

They believe that it is by God's grace that we are saved. They also believe they we co-operate with God, towards our salvation, and on that I happen to agree.

Of course you do.... and this was the hinge of the Reformation.

Romans 11:6
But it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Lockheed

13th April 2005, 06:46 PM

Not anymore they're not. Where O Death is thy sting?! Things have changed thanks be to Jesus Christ.

Yet they are "asleep" and "dead in Christ", when was the last time your sleeping aquaintance interceded on your behalf?

Stefan Davidovich

13th April 2005, 06:49 PM

Yet they are "asleep" and "dead in Christ", when was the last time your sleeping aquaintance interceded on your behalf?

I presume you believe in 'soul sleep'?

Stefan Davidovich

13th April 2005, 06:52 PM

Yet Paul says they're "asleep" and "dead in Christ". They have yet to be resurrected...

Again...'soul sleep'. A lot of us don't believe in soul sleep.

Lockheed

13th April 2005, 06:54 PM

I presume you believe in 'soul sleep'?

Of course not, and I stated as much in my post. I believe as Paul did:

1 Thes. 4:13
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

Did Paul believe in soul-sleep? Of course not, but he is making a point by calling the dead in Christ "asleep". In so doing Paul makes evident the fact that we no longer related to the dead as we do the living. Paul does not comfort the believers with dead loved-ones that the dead can be contacted or intercede on their behalf, rather, that they will be resurrected some day.

Lockheed

13th April 2005, 06:55 PM

Again...'soul sleep'. A lot of us don't believe in soul sleep.

You answer the question then, what did Paul mean when he called the 'dead in Christ' "asleep"?

Lockheed

13th April 2005, 06:56 PM

ha, that is the only implication for his comment

Not at all. Do you deny that Paul calls them "asleep"?

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

SumTinWong

13th April 2005, 06:56 PM

Like?
OSAS.

No, on the basis of what Christ and His apostles state in the God-breathed word. It is not my opinion that I seek to promote, but the Word of God.
The Word of God? You mean Jesus? There is only one time when Word is capitalized in the Bible and it refers to Jesus, and not to itself.

Stefan Davidovich

13th April 2005, 06:59 PM

You answer the question then, what did Paul mean when he called the 'dead in Christ' "asleep"?

Jesus also used the same expression to refer to the dead girl. His point had nothing to do with communication or intercession - he was making the point that these people are still living.

Lockheed

13th April 2005, 07:02 PM

OSAS.

'Once saved always saved' (which I don't particularly like either) is by no means a universal belief of baptists. I'm partial to Perserverance of the Saints.

So let's review... you deny salvation by faith alone and OSAS or Perserverance of the saints. What exactly do you believe that makes you a Baptist?

The Word of God? You mean Jesus? There is only one time when Word is capitalized in the Bible and it refers to Jesus, and not to itself.

No, the Apostles speak of Scripture as the "God-breathed" word. Whether one capitalizes it or not is of no matter.

Stefan Davidovich

13th April 2005, 07:05 PM

What exactly do you believe that makes you a Baptist?

I am a Baptist because I believe in adult Baptism and I believe in the congregational system...I'm not speaking for Bud here of course but I don't believe in OSAS or faith alone either - that's one of the beauties of being Baptist (at least in Canada)...

Lockheed

13th April 2005, 07:05 PM

I noticed you dodged your own question. What is it PAUL is saying when he's talking about the "dead" (lest we forget that they're indeed physically dead) being "asleep". Why doesn't Paul commend the believers to pray to their loved ones and seek their intercession? Why isn't such a belief expressed anywhere in Scripture?

Again, the fact that the believing dead are spiritually around the throne of God worshiping Him is not in dispute, what is in dispute is their ability to omniciently hear prayers and intercede on behalf of the living.

Jesus also used the same expression to refer to the dead girl. His point had nothing to do with communication or intercession - he was making the point that these people are still living.

Could anyone in the room communicate with her? Was she available for intercession?

Lockheed

13th April 2005, 07:06 PM

I am a Baptist because I believe in adult Baptism and I believe in the congregational system...I'm not speaking for Bud here of course but I don't believe in OSAS or faith alone either - that's one of the beauties of being Baptist (at least in Canada)...

What Baptist denomination teaches against faith alone and OSAS?

Stefan Davidovich

13th April 2005, 07:10 PM

What Baptist denomination teaches against faith alone and OSAS?

Well I preach in the Baptist church and I teach against faith alone and OSAS...I'm speaking for the Baptist church in Canada though.

Could anyone in the room communicate with her? Was she available for intercession?

I wasn't making a case for intercession or communication with saints...I was merely pointing out that Paul was talking about something entirely different.

Lockheed

13th April 2005, 07:14 PM

Well I preach in the Baptist church and I teach against faith alone and OSAS...I'm speaking for the Baptist church in Canada though.

I see, no denominational affilitation? You hold to no denominational creed?

aReformedPatriot

13th April 2005, 08:00 PM

ya'll are gonna get off focus if you turn this into a OSAS type debate which will be most dissapointing as I have found this thread fascinating.

ZiSunka

13th April 2005, 08:08 PM

I see, no denominational affilitation? You hold to no denominational creed?

I don't really either. I am no denomination and every denomination and I most closely align with the confession of faith of the Mennonite Church. :)

Stefan Davidovich

13th April 2005, 08:12 PM

I see, no denominational affilitation? You hold to no denominational creed?

No. I'm a Christian first and foremost. Denominational creeds have done enough harm. I grew up as an MK - we were Christians. I've been part of Baptist, Pentecostal, independent and Alliance churches since coming back. Although I'm being prepared to be ordained with the Baptist church, I take opportunities to speak in Alliance and Pentecostal churches - I take part in discussions on this forum because I am a member of a Baptist church...but I don't label myself as a Baptist. I'm a Christian.

You hold to no denominational creed?

No. No denomination has it perfectly right. The Pentecostal church emphasizes certain truths that we tend to overlook, the Baptist church emphasizes other truths that other churches overlook etc.

ya'll are gonna get off focus if you turn this into a OSAS type debate which will be most dissapointing as I have found this thread fascinating.

Yes, let's get back on track. I would be happy to discuss denominational creeds etc. in another thread.

BBAS 64

13th April 2005, 08:13 PM

So do alot of Baptists, Bill. There are doctrinal errors that the Baptist churches teach as well, are they now a cult?

Not necessarily the truth. I do not assume they have been consistant, but present. Many of the same practices they have today stem from practices back then. The historical writings of the ECF prove this.

Common sense, reason, and scripture, yes I draw from all of these.

No the truth will always remain. Whether or not people will see the truth, that is different.

Well you did applauad the people for standing up for what they believed in and did not seperate yourself from that stance they took, so it was logical to assume you agreed.

Good day, Uncle bud

There is a big diffence IMO as to errors in the Baptist Local churches, in so far as I have seen people over time in reading the scripture coming to a fuuler understanding of what scripture teaches and allway see scripture as the final binding authority of their faith.

In regaurds to the RCC, they in their own writtings say they can not be "reformed", even in the light of Scripture, cause with out them they posit the Scripture is unispired.

Should not assume, kind of looks bad. Yes they said what they thought with out reservation wheather we agree or not, Was never the issue.

Contend for the Faith once delivered....

Peace to u,

Bill

GreenEyedLady

14th April 2005, 01:41 AM

Stefan Davidovich

14th April 2005, 02:28 AM

I noticed you dodged your own question. What is it PAUL is saying when he's talking about the "dead" (lest we forget that they're indeed physically dead) being "asleep".

Yes, they are physically dead as was the child Jesus was referring to. The soul is alive in paradise while the body is sleeping until the final resurrection when we are all given new bodies. I hope that answers your question.

SumTinWong

14th April 2005, 07:39 AM

So let's review... you deny salvation by faith alone and OSAS or Perserverance of the saints. What exactly do you believe that makes you a Baptist?
Wrong. I never said I did not believe in perserverance of the saints (probably not in the way you think of it though).

I deny all five points of Calvinism as well, don't forget that.

I am not a Baptist, I am a Christian that attends and is a member of a Baptist church.

No, the Apostles speak of Scripture as the "God-breathed" word. Whether one capitalizes it or not is of no matter.
To you it isn't but I guess that is all that is supposed to matter, right? I never said the Bible was not God-breathed, I said it was not the Word, which is Jesus.

GreenEyedLady

14th April 2005, 10:28 AM

Can you all debate without being so harsh????

Man, i could have sworn I saw compassion the other day, or was I dreaming?

Stefan Davidovich

14th April 2005, 02:14 PM

Can you all debate without being so harsh????

Thanks for the reminder! Feel free to let me know when I'm out of line.

GreenEyedLady

14th April 2005, 02:21 PM

Stefan,
Are you a Baptist or an orthodox?
I am confused with what you really are. I cannot tell by your posts either.
GEL

Stefan Davidovich

14th April 2005, 03:39 PM

Stefan,
Are you a Baptist or an orthodox?
I am confused with what you really are. I cannot tell by your posts either
LOL. I'm a Christian...

Actually i'm preparing to enter full time ministry with the Baptist Church and I'm actively involved in a downtown ministry at my church (Baptist).

I don't like to be pegged. I believe in the pursuit of truth and I have found that Baptists don't have it nailed down yet. I like aspects of the Baptist church and I like aspects of the Charismatic and Pentecostal churches, the Alliance church, and the Orthodox church...

While I like certain aspects of the Orthodox Church, I don't agree with all of their teachings (my avatar is an icon - but I don't actually use icons...Stephen has always meant a great deal to me). But the same goes for the Baptist church and others.

The more I study theology and my Bible the more I find that different church groups have much to offer. No one denomination has a hold on the truth...I try to take the best out of each denomination. The Baptist church (my particular convention) is ideal for that because of its congregational model.

You will find that sometimes I sound like I'm Pentecostal, other times Orthodox and other times Baptist. I believe in standing for the truth has it is presented in God's word - and sometimes I get in heated debates with fellow Baptists because I just don't agree with (parts of) their theology.

I hope that helps. God Bless.

Stephen

Ginny

14th April 2005, 04:37 PM

Man, i am telling you what...this is the first time I have been to this thread and I just read every single post.

It went from Mary, to saints, to OSAS... I am a CHRISTIAN that ATTENDS a Baptist church....this is a baptist thread.

I feel like saying "Satan get behind me". Really. I must say that I suddenly feel weak, unsure, doubtful, and faithless after hearing the derogatory comments.

And I consider myself a strong question who has had a strong relationship with Christ for 8 years. My husband warned me that it is not completely edifying to join the threads and listen to other's posts. I think I am beginning to see "the light".

To God be the glory.

Stefan Davidovich

14th April 2005, 10:04 PM

It went from Mary, to saints, to OSAS...

Sometimes conversations can get sidetracked. Its something to work on.

I am a CHRISTIAN that ATTENDS a Baptist church....this is a baptist thread.

What are you trying to say Ginny? Does it bother you that some of us do not fully agree with all Baptist doctrine?

I feel like saying "Satan get behind me". Really. I must say that I suddenly feel weak, unsure, doubtful, and faithless after hearing the derogatory comments.

Those are strong words...could you let us know what has particularly upset you? Sometimes language used in discussion can get quite sharp - and we have to work on that - but i don't think anyone is trying to be derogatory. I think it would be best if you let us know specifically what has so perturbed you - saying "Satan get behind me" is not necessarily very helpful.

Hopefully we can sort this out - I am sorry that this thread has so disturbed you.

I will look forward to hearing from you.

Your brother in Christ,

Stephen

Ginny

15th April 2005, 08:43 AM

What are you trying to say Ginny? Does it bother you that some of us do not fully agree with all Baptist doctrine?

As I am sure you will agree, anytime there is something that you firmly believe without a doubt, Satan can stick his ugly head up and make you doubt. Not that man has made me doubt but a man's words have, and I guess my post was more for Satan. When I say that, it is not calling anyone specifically here Satan.

Sometimes language used in discussion can get quite sharp - and we have to work on that - but i don't think anyone is trying to be derogatory.

When I first joined Christian Forums, not too long ago, I got very discouraged in regards to how people spoke to each other...especially "Christians". When I spoke to another poster about this, he informed me that unfortunately it seems the Christians that have the worst come out in them through Christian Forums.. My first concern was non-Christians/ atheists.

Hopefully we can sort this out - I am sorry that this thread has so disturbed you.

No need to be concerned. I think the worst came out in me when I read comments on OSAS. I am a firm believer that if you are truly truly truly saved and have a full time relationship with Jesus Christ then this salvation cannot be lost....we are new creations (2 Cor 5:17). If they were so called "lost" then you never were saved in the first place...how can one be born again only to go right back through to the womb?...it was more a religious "experience" than a salvation experience.

I assumed, somewhat naieve, that all Baptists believed this. So this being a Baptist forum, I was looking forward to "like minds".

As a Christian that attends a Baptist church, but not calling herself a Baptist through conviction, I still agree with their doctrines in full otherwise I would not attend the church.

I will agree to disagree on many subjects here, I guess. I do not wish to start a debate on OSAS.

Thanks, Stefan.

Gold Dragon

15th April 2005, 09:52 AM

I assumed, somewhat naieve, that all Baptists believed this. So this being a Baptist forum, I was looking forward to "like minds".

There is a useful Baptist saying to remember:

If you have three Baptists in a room, you'll get four opinions. ;)

Stefan Davidovich

15th April 2005, 09:59 PM

Thank you Ginny for the kind response.

We probably agree on a lot more than we disagree - and the whole subject (of OSAS...which we won't debate :) ) is probably not that important...I have never met anyone who was truly born again who later rejected Christ...so its probably not worth the debate.

I'm glad we can agree to disagree and yet still have fellowship...so long as we agree to give God glory!!

God Bless you.

Stephen

thereselittleflower

16th April 2005, 06:37 AM

[/i]

Just a few miles from my home:

http://www.grownmencry.com/img/photcol_OurLady_detail.jpg

This is the 32' statue of "Our Lady of Peace" at the chapel of the same name in Santa Clara, CA. (The different colored boxes appear to be for graphic effect.)

That's a beautiful statue . . .thank you for posting it. :)

Peace

thereselittleflower

16th April 2005, 06:45 AM

Bill thank you for posting this prayer :

This prayer was written by the Holy Father to
Mary Immaculate

Totally yours,
Immaculate Conception, Mary my Mother,
Live in me, Act in me,
Speak in me and through me,
Think your thoughts in my mind,
Love through my heart,
Give me your dispositions and feelings,
Teach, lead me and guide me to Jesus,
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior,
Possess my soul,
Take over my entire personality and life, replace it with Yourself,
Incline me to constant adoration,
Pray in me and through me,
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.

http://prayers.viarosa.com/TotusTuus.html (http://prayers.viarosa.com/TotusTuus.html)

It is beautiful :)

Peace

thereselittleflower

16th April 2005, 06:49 AM

So do alot of Baptists, Bill. There are doctrinal errors that the Baptist churches teach as well, are they now a cult?

Uncle Bud . . can you tell me how you did those quotes in your post? I am in the dark and no one will explain it to me . . .

Thanks!

Peace

Iollain

16th April 2005, 09:03 AM

BBAS 64

16th April 2005, 09:22 AM

Good Day, All

While re reading this prayer that John Paul wrote, not only is it contray to the very nature of the gospel and the Faith once delivered to the saints. It seems that this kind of incantation is used by "mediums" that channel the thoughts, feelings and knowledge of dead people.

What do you think have I gone to far in my assesment of the words he wrote?

Peace to u,

Bill

GreenEyedLady

16th April 2005, 09:23 AM

That is not beautiful to me, it is taking the place of the Holy Spirit. And i won't say anything else cause i will cause the thread to be closed.

I second that. However, this is the baptist forum, and we should be able to discuss freely this poem or any other poem brought to our attention by other forum members.
The part that bothers me the most is "posses my soul"
Nothing and no body should "live" in us but the Holy Spirit.

Iollain

16th April 2005, 09:40 AM

Iollain

16th April 2005, 09:50 AM

I second that. However, this is the baptist forum, and we should be able to discuss freely this poem or any other poem brought to our attention by other forum members.
The part that bothers me the most is "posses my soul"
Nothing and no body should "live" in us but the Holy Spirit.

Amen GEL, only the Holy Spirit.

Stefan Davidovich

16th April 2005, 11:42 AM

The part that bothers me the most is "posses my soul"
Nothing and no body should "live" in us but the Holy Spirit.

Amen.

PapaLandShark

16th April 2005, 12:57 PM

thereselittleflower

16th April 2005, 02:14 PM

I completely understand all your concerns regarding the Pope's prayer . . I find it beautiful because I understand it within the context he intended it. If I saw it the way you do, I would be just as abhorent of it, I would consider it blasphemous.

Since this is your forum, I don't think I can really say a whole lot more about it here . . but if anyone is genuinely interested in understanding this preayer from the Catholic perspective, you are always welcome to come and ask in OBOB. :)

Peace

thereselittleflower

16th April 2005, 02:17 PM

Gah...I tried to read through all of this thread. I think I got to page 6 before my head started spinning.

It is unfortunate that we can't sit down with the man and talk with him about this. Guess we'll just have to wait a little while and ask in person eh?

Thanks for you voice of reason. :) There are many things I will want to ask him about when that time comes too. ;)

I like your avatar too!

Peace

Stefan Davidovich

16th April 2005, 02:22 PM

Since this is your forum, I don't think I can really say a whole lot more about it here . . but if anyone is genuinely interested in understanding this preayer from the Catholic perspective, you are always welcome to come and ask in OBOB. :)

That's very kind and gracious of you.

mesue

17th April 2005, 12:39 AM

... It is unfortunate that we can't sit down with the man and talk with him about this. Guess we'll just have to wait a little while and ask in person eh?

That depends on a lot of things ...

thereselittleflower

17th April 2005, 03:27 AM

That depends on a lot of things ...

I agree :) Not the least of which is our own true state of salvation ;)

Peace

ZiSunka

17th April 2005, 08:17 PM

I agree :) Not the least of which is our own true state of salvation ;)

Peace

Therese, it IS possible to be certain of the true state of our own salvation! :clap:

mesue

17th April 2005, 08:47 PM

I agree :) Not the least of which is our own true state of salvation ;)
Peace

I know the true state of my salvation.
When I die I will go straight to heaven.
Why?
Because Jesus Christ is my Savior.
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
I used to go to a sacramental church. I know and taught the sacrament of reconciliation. I sat on an executive board for the sarcament of marriage.
I was a very good sacramental church goer. At that time I was not sure of my salvation. That was, until I actually started reading the Bible. Now I attend a Bible based church. I know that I know without a shadow of a doubt, that I am going to Heaven when I die.
You had eluded to being converted to Catholicism previously. May I ask, why have you left your first love?
Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

BBAS 64

17th April 2005, 08:51 PM

I agree :) Not the least of which is our own true state of salvation ;)

Peace

Good day, TLF

Your use of "our" is some what inclusive, from you point of view it is every one. Because your view is troubled by the works of satisfaction that have been used to heep doubt upon your mind.

From the biblical point of view it has been obtained;

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Peace to u,

Bill

thereselittleflower

18th April 2005, 12:35 AM

Therese, it IS possible to be certain of the true state of our own salvation! :clap:

Hi lambsglove

Actually, I agree. :) At least in the present momment.

Peace

Iollain

18th April 2005, 09:47 AM

http://www.yearoftherosary.org/world_needs_tender_mother.html

For her part, Mary waits like a true mother. She does not force herself on us. She waits patiently, even for those who seem to have little time for her, for they are her children too. She waits and she prays: the Refuge of sinners, the Comforter of the afflicted the Help of Christians. She stands there waiting to come to our assistance as soon as we say the word. So let us say a word, let us all with joy, with gratitude, with confidence, with love, let us turn to her and cry out from the very depths of our hearts:

Mother! Mother! Mother!

Who is your refuge?

Deu 33:27 The eternal God [is thy] refuge, and underneath [are] the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy [them].

2Sa 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: [he is] my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

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Psa 9:9 The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble.

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Psa 14:6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD [is] his refuge.

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Psa 46:1 [[To the chief Musician for the sons of Korah, A Song upon Alamoth.]] God [is] our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
Psa 46:7 The LORD of hosts [is] with us; the God of Jacob [is] our refuge. Selah.

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Psa 46:11 The LORD of hosts [is] with us; the God of Jacob [is] our refuge. Selah.

Psa 48:3 God is known in her palaces for a refuge.

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Psa 57:1 [[To the chief Musician, Altaschith, Michtam of David, when he fled from Saul in the cave.]] Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until [these] calamities be overpast.

Psa 59:16 But I will sing of thy power; yea, I will sing aloud of thy mercy in the morning: for thou hast been my defence and refuge in the day of my trouble.

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Psa 62:7 In God [is] my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, [and] my refuge, [is] in God.

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Psa 62:8 Trust in him at all times; [ye] people, pour out your heart before him: God [is] a refuge for us. Selah.

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Psa 71:7 I am as a wonder unto many; but thou [art] my strong refuge.

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Psa 91:2 I will say of the LORD, [He is] my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

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Psa 91:9 Because thou hast made the LORD, [which is] my refuge, [even] the most High, thy habitation;

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Psa 94:22 But the LORD is my defence; and my God [is] the rock of my refuge.

Psa 142:1 [[Maschil of David; A Prayer when he was in the cave.]] I cried unto the LORD with my voice; with my voice unto the LORD did I make my supplication.

Psa 142:2 I poured out my complaint before him; I shewed before him my trouble.

Psa 142:3 When my spirit was overwhelmed within me, then thou knewest my path. In the way wherein I walked have they privily laid a snare for me.

Psa 142:4 I looked on [my] right hand, and beheld, but [there was] no man that would know me: refuge failed me; no man cared for my soul.

Psa 142:5 I cried unto thee, O LORD: I said, Thou [art] my refuge [and] my portion in the land of the living.

Psa 142:6 Attend unto my cry; for I am brought very low: deliver me from my persecutors; for they are stronger than I.

Psa 142:7 Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.

Pro 14:26 In the fear of the LORD [is] strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge.

Isa 25:1 O LORD, thou [art] my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful [things; thy] counsels of old [are] faithfulness [and] truth.

Isa 25:2 For thou hast made of a city an heap; [of] a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be built.

Isa 25:3 Therefore shall the strong people glorify thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear thee.

Isa 25:4 For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones [is] as a storm [against] the wall.

Isa 25:5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; [even] the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

Isa 25:6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

Isa 25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken [it].

Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this [is] our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this [is] the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

Isa 25:10 For in this mountain shall the hand of the LORD rest, and Moab shall be trodden down under him, even as straw is trodden down for the dunghill.

Isa 25:11 And he shall spread forth his hands in the midst of them, as he that swimmeth spreadeth forth [his hands] to swim: and he shall bring down their pride together with the spoils of their hands.

Isa 25:12 And the fortress of the high fort of thy walls shall he bring down, lay low, [and] bring to the ground, [even] to the dust.

Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and [things] wherein [there is] no profit

Hbr 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath:

Hbr 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Hbr 6:19 Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

Hbr 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, [even] Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Iollain

18th April 2005, 09:49 AM

Who is your Help?

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Gen 49:25 [Even] by the God of thy father, who shall help thee

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Exd 18:4 And the name of the other [was] Eliezer; for the God of my father, [said he, was] mine help, and delivered me from the sword of Pharaoh:

Deu 33:7 And this [is the blessing] of Judah: and he said, Hear, LORD, the voice of Judah, and bring him unto his people: let his hands be sufficient for him; and be thou an help [to him] from his enemies.

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Deu 33:26 [There is] none like unto the God of Jeshurun, [who] rideth upon the heaven in thy help, and in his excellency on the sky.

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Deu 33:29 Happy [art] thou, O Israel: who [is] like unto thee, O people saved by the LORD, the shield of thy help, and who [is] the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places

2Ch 14:11 And Asa cried unto the LORD his God, and said, LORD, [it is] nothing with thee to help, whether with many, or with them that have no power: help us, O LORD our God; for we rest on thee, and in thy name we go against this multitude. O LORD, thou [art] our God; let not man prevail against thee

2Ch 20:3 And Jehoshaphat feared, and set himself to seek the LORD, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah.

2Ch 20:4 And Judah gathered themselves together, to ask [help] of the LORD: even out of all the cities of Judah they came to seek the LORD.

2Ch 20:5 And Jehoshaphat stood in the congregation of Judah and Jerusalem, in the house of the LORD, before the new court,

2Ch 20:6 And said, O LORD God of our fathers, [art] not thou God in heaven? and rulest [not] thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand [is there not] power and might, so that none is able to withstand thee?

2Ch 20:7 [Art] not thou our God, [who] didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?

2Ch 20:8 And they dwelt therein, and have built thee a sanctuary therein for thy name, saying,

2Ch 20:9 If, [when] evil cometh upon us, [as] the sword, judgment, or pestilence, or famine, we stand before this house, and in thy presence, (for thy name [is] in this house,) and cry unto thee in our affliction, then thou wilt hear and help.

2Ch 25:8 But if thou wilt go, do [it], be strong for the battle: God shall make thee fall before the enemy: for God hath power to help, and to cast down.

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Psa 33:20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he [is] our help and our shield.

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Psa 35:2 Take hold of shield and buckler, and stand up for mine help.

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Psa 37:40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

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Psa 38:22 Make haste to help me, O Lord my salvation.

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Psa 40:13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me.

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Psa 40:17 But I [am] poor and needy; [yet] the Lord thinketh upon me: thou [art] my help and my deliverer; make no tarrying, O my God.

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Psa 42:5 Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and [why] art thou disquieted in me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him [for] the help of his countenance.

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Psa 44:26 Arise for our help, and redeem us for thy mercies' sake.

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Psa 46:1 [[To the chief Musician for the sons of Korah, A Song upon Alamoth.]] God [is] our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.

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Psa 46:5 God [is] in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her, [and that] right early.

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Psa 59:4 They run and prepare themselves without [my] fault: awake to help me, and behold.

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Psa 60:11 Give us help from trouble: for vain [is] the help of man.

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Psa 63:7 Because thou hast been my help, therefore in the shadow of thy wings will I rejoice.

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Psa 70:1 [[To the chief Musician, [A Psalm] of David, to bring to remembrance.]] [Make haste], O God, to deliver me; make haste to help me, O LORD.

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Psa 70:5 But I [am] poor and needy: make haste unto me, O God: thou [art] my help and my deliverer; O LORD, make no tarrying.

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Psa 71:12 O God, be not far from me: O my God, make haste for my help.

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Psa 79:9 Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.

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Psa 94:17 Unless the LORD [had been] my help, my soul had almost dwelt in silence.

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Psa 108:12 Give us help from trouble: for vain [is] the help of man.

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Psa 109:26 Help me, O LORD my God: O save me according to thy mercy:

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Psa 115:9 O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he [is] their help and their shield.

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Psa 115:10 O house of Aaron, trust in the LORD: he [is] their help and their shield.

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Psa 115:11 Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he [is] their help and their shield.

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Psa 118:7 The LORD taketh my part with them that help me: therefore shall I see [my desire] upon them that hate me.

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Psa 119:86 All thy commandments [are] faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me.

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Psa 119:173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.

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Psa 119:175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.

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Psa 121:1 [[A Song of degrees.]] I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.

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Psa 121:2 My help [cometh] from the LORD, which made heaven and earth.

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Psa 124:8 Our help [is] in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.

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Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in the son of man, in whom [there is] no help.

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Psa 146:5 Happy [is he] that [hath] the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope [is] in the LORD his God:

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Isa 41:10 Fear thou not; for I [am] with thee: be not dismayed; for I [am] thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

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Isa 41:13 For I the LORD thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee.

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Isa 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, [and] ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

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Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.

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Isa 50:7 For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.

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Isa 50:9 Behold, the Lord GOD will help me; who [is] he [that] shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.

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Hsa 13:9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me [is] thine help.

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Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

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Mar 9:22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.

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Mar 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

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Hbr 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Iollain

18th April 2005, 09:58 AM

Who is your Comforter?

Psa 23:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD [is] my shepherd; I shall not want.

Psa 23:2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

Psa 23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Psa 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Psa 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Psa 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Psa 71:1 In thee, O LORD, do I put my trust: let me never be put to confusion.

Psa 71:2 Deliver me in thy righteousness, and cause me to escape: incline thine ear unto me, and save me.

Psa 71:3 Be thou my strong habitation, whereunto I may continually resort: thou hast given commandment to save me; for thou [art] my rock and my fortress.

Psa 71:4 Deliver me, O my God, out of the hand of the wicked, out of the hand of the unrighteous and cruel man.

Psa 71:5 For thou [art] my hope, O Lord GOD: [thou art] my trust from my youth.

Psa 71:6 By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise [shall be] continually of thee.

Psa 71:7 I am as a wonder unto many; but thou [art] my strong refuge.

Psa 71:8 Let my mouth be filled [with] thy praise [and with] thy honour all the day.

Psa 71:9 Cast me not off in the time of old age; forsake me not when my strength faileth.

Psa 71:10 For mine enemies speak against me; and they that lay wait for my soul take counsel together,

Psa 71:11 Saying, God hath forsaken him: persecute and take him; for [there is] none to deliver [him].

Psa 71:12 O God, be not far from me: O my God, make haste for my help.

Psa 71:13 Let them be confounded [and] consumed that are adversaries to my soul; let them be covered [with] reproach and dishonour that seek my hurt.

Psa 71:14 But I will hope continually, and will yet praise thee more and more.

Psa 71:15 My mouth shall shew forth thy righteousness [and] thy salvation all the day; for I know not the numbers [thereof].

Psa 71:16 I will go in the strength of the Lord GOD: I will make mention of thy righteousness, [even] of thine only.

Psa 71:17 O God, thou hast taught me from my youth: and hitherto have I declared thy wondrous works.

Psa 71:18 Now also when I am old and grayheaded, O God, forsake me not; until I have shewed thy strength unto [this] generation, [and] thy power to every one [that] is to come.

Psa 71:19 Thy righteousness also, O God, [is] very high, who hast done great things: O God, who [is] like unto thee!

Psa 71:20 [Thou], which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

Psa 71:21 Thou shalt increase my greatness, and comfort me on every side.

Psa 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, [even] thy truth, O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.

Psa 71:23 My lips shall greatly rejoice when I sing unto thee; and my soul, which thou hast redeemed.

Psa 71:24 My tongue also shall talk of thy righteousness all the day long: for they are confounded, for they are brought unto shame, that seek my hurt.

(notice verse 50)

Psa 119:1 ALEPH. Blessed [are] the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.

Psa 119:2 Blessed [are] they that keep his testimonies, [and that] seek him with the whole heart.

Psa 119:3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

Psa 119:4 Thou hast commanded [us] to keep thy precepts diligently.

Psa 119:5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!

Psa 119:6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.

Psa 119:7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.

Psa 119:8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.

Psa 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed [thereto] according to thy word.

Psa 119:10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.

Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Psa 119:12 Blessed [art] thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.

Psa 119:13 With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.

Psa 119:14 I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as [much as] in all riches.

Psa 119:15 I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.

Psa 119:16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

Psa 119:17 GIMEL. Deal bountifully with thy servant, [that] I may live, and keep thy word.

Psa 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

Psa 119:19 I [am] a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.

Psa 119:20 My soul breaketh for the longing [that it hath] unto thy judgments at all times.

Psa 119:21 Thou hast rebuked the proud [that are] cursed, which do err from thy commandments.

Psa 119:22 Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies.

Psa 119:23 Princes also did sit [and] speak against me: [but] thy servant did meditate in thy statutes.

Psa 119:24 Thy testimonies also [are] my delight [and] my counsellors.

Psa 119:25 DALETH. My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.

Psa 119:26 I have declared my ways, and thou heardest me: teach me thy statutes.

Psa 119:27 Make me to understand the way of thy precepts: so shall I talk of thy wondrous works.

Psa 119:28 My soul melteth for heaviness: strengthen thou me according unto thy word.

Psa 119:29 Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.

Psa 119:30 I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid [before me].

Psa 119:31 I have stuck unto thy testimonies: O LORD, put me not to shame.

Psa 119:32 I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart.

Psa 119:33 HE. Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it [unto] the end.

Psa 119:34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with [my] whole heart.

Psa 119:35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.

Psa 119:36 Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.

Psa 119:37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; [and] quicken thou me in thy way.

Psa 119:38 Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who [is devoted] to thy fear.

Psa 119:39 Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments [are] good.

Psa 119:40 Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.

Psa 119:41 VAU. Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, [even] thy salvation, according to thy word.

Psa 119:42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.

Psa 119:43 And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.

Psa 119:44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.

Psa 119:45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

Psa 119:46 I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.

Psa 119:47 And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved.

Psa 119:48 My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes.

Psa 119:49 ZAIN. Remember the word unto thy servant, upon which thou hast caused me to hope.

Iollain

18th April 2005, 09:59 AM

Psa 119:50 This [is] my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

Psa 119:51 The proud have had me greatly in derision: [yet] have I not declined from thy law.

Psa 119:52 I remembered thy judgments of old, O LORD; and have comforted myself.

Psa 119:53 Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.

Psa 119:54 Thy statutes have been my songs in the house of my pilgrimage.

Psa 119:55 I have remembered thy name, O LORD, in the night, and have kept thy law.

Psa 119:56 This I had, because I kept thy precepts.

Psa 119:57 CHETH. [Thou art] my portion, O LORD: I have said that I would keep thy words.

Psa 119:58 I intreated thy favour with [my] whole heart: be merciful unto me according to thy word.

Psa 119:59 I thought on my ways, and turned my feet unto thy testimonies.

Psa 119:60 I made haste, and delayed not to keep thy commandments.

Psa 119:61 The bands of the wicked have robbed me: [but] I have not forgotten thy law.

Psa 119:62 At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee because of thy righteous judgments.

Psa 119:63 I [am] a companion of all [them] that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.

Psa 119:64 The earth, O LORD, is full of thy mercy: teach me thy statutes.

Psa 119:65 TETH. Thou hast dealt well with thy servant, O LORD, according unto thy word.

Psa 119:66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments.

Psa 119:67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.

Psa 119:68 Thou [art] good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes.

Psa 119:69 The proud have forged a lie against me: [but] I will keep thy precepts with [my] whole heart.

Psa 119:70 Their heart is as fat as grease; [but] I delight in thy law.

Psa 119:71 [It is] good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.

Psa 119:72 The law of thy mouth [is] better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.

Psa 119:73 JOD. Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.

Psa 119:74 They that fear thee will be glad when they see me; because I have hoped in thy word.

Psa 119:75 I know, O LORD, that thy judgments [are] right, and [that] thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me.

Psa 119:76 Let, I pray thee, thy merciful kindness be for my comfort, according to thy word unto thy servant.

Psa 119:77 Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law [is] my delight.

Psa 119:78 Let the proud be ashamed; for they dealt perversely with me without a cause: [but] I will meditate in thy precepts.

Psa 119:79 Let those that fear thee turn unto me, and those that have known thy testimonies.

Psa 119:80 Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed.

Psa 119:81 CAPH. My soul fainteth for thy salvation: [but] I hope in thy word.

Psa 119:82 Mine eyes fail for thy word, saying, When wilt thou comfort me?

Psa 119:83 For I am become like a bottle in the smoke; [yet] do I not forget thy statutes.

Psa 119:84 How many [are] the days of thy servant? when wilt thou execute judgment on them that persecute me?

Psa 119:85 The proud have digged pits for me, which [are] not after thy law.

Psa 119:86 All thy commandments [are] faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me.

Psa 119:87 They had almost consumed me upon earth; but I forsook not thy precepts.

Psa 119:88 Quicken me after thy lovingkindness; so shall I keep the testimony of thy mouth.

Psa 119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

Psa 119:90 Thy faithfulness [is] unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.

Psa 119:91 They continue this day according to thine ordinances: for all [are] thy servants.

Psa 119:92 Unless thy law [had been] my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.

Psa 119:93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

Psa 119:94 I [am] thine, save me; for I have sought thy precepts.

Psa 119:95 The wicked have waited for me to destroy me: [but] I will consider thy testimonies.

Psa 119:96 I have seen an end of all perfection: [but] thy commandment [is] exceeding broad.

Psa 119:97 MEM. O how love I thy law! it [is] my meditation all the day.

Psa 119:98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they [are] ever with me.

Psa 119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies [are] my meditation.

Psa 119:100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.

Psa 119:101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.

Psa 119:102 I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me.

Psa 119:103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! [yea, sweeter] than honey to my mouth!

Psa 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

Psa 119