7Seals,7Trumpets,7Bowls

[Flavius]

Revelations is truly a book written to people of Jewish roots,This book talks in Parrables and states things that only a Jew would know.For instance,There are 22 chapters and 22 letters in the Hebrew Alphabet. Like chapter 4. Behold there was a door opened up in Heaven and the fourth letter being bet[door}.Alot of people would relate things like the great sea mingled with glass as being the great sea that Solomon built and prhases like{The kingdom of the world have become the kingdoms of G-d} to be a reference to the feast of trumpet's and this book deals with such matters as only true Jews would recognize. The stories are such that lead to every story about 3's.

7 Seals,7 trumpets and 7 bowls are 3 diffrent views from 3 diffrent aspects.

The first deals with the flesh.
The second deals with the soul.
The third deals with the spirit.

Like all the stories before.

Cain kills the spiritual man within and the birth of Seth is brought about.

Esau comes to kill Jacob and Jacob struggles with G-d and becomes Israel.

Ishmael hates Isaac but Isaac sees himself in the future lamb.

Hammon hated the Jews but Esther found favor with the king and became Queen.

Ham saw his fathers flesh but Japheth will reside in the tents of Shem.

Abrahm prays for his flesh to flee sodom,his flesh didn't want to leave but later he became Abraham.

Saul ruled 40 years,David ruled 40 years,Solomon ruled 40 years.

Saul came after David and David could have killed Saul but he didn't,He chose to honor Saul.Saul is the flesh who tries to kill the spirit.

Genesis 4-7...G-d speaking to Cain- If thou doest well,shalt thou not be accepted?And if thou doest not well,sin lieth at the door.

The flesh has a choice to do good,We see this in Jonothan.

Saul comes to kill David and David praises G-d and sings and prays for Saul.
Saul has a son named Jonothon who is heir to the throne and will be the next king in Israel.
Jonothan gives his robe,his ring and his throne to david.

G-d is always trying to make peace with the 3 sons, between Cain,Able and Seth.
Ham,Japheth Shem.
Outer court,Holy place and Holy of Holies people.

Jonothon is the seed of the flesh{Saul}. Saul is of the tribe of Benjamin and the true brother of Joseph by Rachel.

In the last page of Judges Benjamin is wiped out and the elders of Israel decide to replinish the tribe of Benjamin with the daughters who come up to the feasts of Shilo.
This is the same story as Saul, David, and Jonothan.

Saul ruled 40 years,David ruled 40 years and Solomon ruled 40 years..

Solomon the son of David had a thousand concubines,He held himself from nothing that men found pleasing.His father had conquered all the nations around him and the land was before him.

Solomon was the son of David and excelled more than any man on Earth.

Jonothan gave up his heir to the throne to David and David said of him{his love was better than that of women}.
Wich would you want to be? Solomon of Jonothon? Solomon is the heir of David and will inheirt everything.But Jonothon is not the son of David but becomes the true brother of David.Jonothon gives up his entire Kingdom to David Recognizing him as the true king of Israel. Jonothan dies in a battle with his father Saul and David mourns greatly over it.

Jonothan was to be the great king in Israel instead of David and instead of Solomon.But Jonothan saw by faith and he took on the philistines alone and the ground quaked before him.
Saul represents the flesh and david the spirit and Solomon the life.many have aspired to become Solomon,the richest man ever born,he had all the wisdom,glory,riches and women that any man could hope for.Any man of G-d can have these things,all you gotta do is claim that G-d is your father and you deserve the wealth.
Before you know it you will be driving caddillacs cause G-d is a G-d of a thousand hills.He will give you fortune if you persist.
But Jonothan gave up his inheritance and gave it to David and he didn't care about riches and he didn't care about his kingdom.He only wanted to love David because he knew David.He knew who he was.I think in the end David will say that he never knew Saul but he knew Jonothan.


Saul tried to be priest king when he didn't wait on Samuel.Saul went ahead and sacrificed the lamb on his own when Samuel didn't show up.Samuel cursed his kingdom right there.Saul was of the tribe of Benjamin,when Samuel annointed saul king of Israel,his seed could have ruled forever. Saul lived in the flesh but Jonothan saw past the flesh and loved David
7Seal,7Trumpets,7bowls.

Something happens between the 6th seal and the 7th,between the 6th trumpet and the 7th, between the 6th bowl and the 7th.Can you see what it is?

There was a great earthquake that divided the city in 3 parts.


During the trumpets what happens? A third of the sea,A third of the moon?

[visionary]

Same time event..different outcomes for individuals, it is the dividing of the people's hearts...the wheat and the chaff. see RabbiYeshua.com/articles and think about the trumpets as you study His Feast of Trumpets. Hope it helps as it has helped me.

[EchadHashem]

Very interesting! I am still digesting what you have written.

Here is a correlation that I find interesting. Not sure if it is correct but it does appear to be a pretty good correlation...others have probably found/discussed it before me.

The basic idea is the link between Dan7 and Rev 4-11:

Dan7:9,10
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Rev4:2,3
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.
And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and [there was] a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. (i.e. the Ancient of Days?)
Rev4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices:
Rev5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Is this the same scene? It appears that here we have the coronation ceremony with opening of the books. I recognize the apparent discrepancy between "books" (Dan) and "book" (Rev). Perhaps this is a difference in idioms? Is the Torah, the book of the Covenant, a book or a book of books? hmmm... perhaps it is both.

I have been instructed that at the coronation of the King in Israel, the new King visited the Temple were he opened a copy of the Torah (i.e. Covenant) that had been sealed by the last king on the day of his coronation. He then proceeding to make a new copy by hand and then seal it for the next King. Can anyone confirm/refute this? I do believe that I would cry to if I thought that perhaps the new covenant could not be installed and the King Messiah could assume His Kingdom.

Anyway, we read on:

Dan 7:13, 14
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him (see above; Rev4,5).
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.
Dan 7:27
And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Notice that the Kingdom is given to the Son of Man who then shares/gives it to saints of the most High.

Rev 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

We see later in Rev the Kingdom being given to the saints.

My point is the Rev 4-11 appears to be an enlargement of the Dan 7 prophecy of the Son getting the Kingdom. Notice that Rev 4-11 appears to be one prophecy. We see the same elders and throneroom scene in Rev 4 as we see in Rev 11.

If this is true then, certainly, Rev 4-11 depicts the fulfilling of Rosh HaShanah through Yom Kippur. Rosh Hashanah = Installation of the King. Yom Kippur = Installation of the New Covenant/Eternal Covenant.

I am still trying to come to terms with Rev 12-19 but it appears to me to be a restatement of some of these events from a different perspective. Rev 19-22 appears to be the Feast of Tabernacles.

Shalom.

[visionary]

Most excellent....brilliant deduction as far as I can tell...will continue to study this...but the indications have implications that are marvelous and wonderous...Oh, we live in a most awesome time.

Thank you for this great insight

Visionary

[TasManOfGod]

There are two ways of reading Revelations concerning the chronological order of the 7 Seals (S) 7 Trumpets (T) and 7 bowls (B).
The most common order and is how they appear is:
S1,S2,S3,S4,S5,S6,S7,T1,T2,T3,T4,T5,T6,T7,B1,B2,B3,B4,B5,B6,B7
However my way of reading it is far less popular and is:
S1,T1,B1,S2,T2,B2,S3,T3,B3,S4,T4,B4,S5,T5,B5,S6,T6,B6,S7,T7,B7
Does anybody else agree with me on this?
How I see it is that the angel of the respective covenant blows the trumpet to gather the people before God, the sealed of that covenant responds and enticement "to not be continually disobedient and don't miss the next trumpet call" bowl is poured out
In addition I have correlated each of the seven feasts of God to the gathering of each of the seven probably occuring after each is gathered (remember the feast of the "prodical sons" father) The feasts begin with Feasts of Trumpets at the gathering of the Church and ends with the Feast of Tabernacles when all are gathered together

[visionary]

If you take what you are saying and look at the ceremonial feasts, which are the order to place Revelation, and Daniel....which we know have historical significance and future final play.

I will include...Message to the Churches (M)

You would have Trumpets (attention please...announcement)..1T....and the opening of the seal.. 1S ....The message (in a new light).. 1M..and Repeat until all seven are covered. This will give people time to repent of their sins one last time. The reason that I didn't put the plagues of jugment with this is because of the verse "the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power, and no man (not even Jesus, who has taken on the human form forever) was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled." Rev 15:8 Yeshua has left the building, probably on His way to gather up His saints to be with Him always. "Behold I come (please note the active verb "come" rather than I "will come" which is future tense) as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest He walk naked, and they see his shame."Rev 16:15

[TasManOfGod]

If you take what you are saying and look at the ceremonial feasts, which are the order to place Revelation, and Daniel....which we know have historical significance and future final play.

I will include...Message to the Churches (M)

You would have Trumpets (attention please...announcement)..1T....and the opening of the seal.. 1S ....The message (in a new light).. 1M..and Repeat until all seven are covered. This will give people time to repent of their sins one last time. The reason that I didn't put the plagues of jugment with this is because of the verse "the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power, and no man (not even Jesus, who has taken on the human form forever) was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled." Rev 15:8 Yeshua has left the building, probably on His way to gather up His saints to be with Him always. "Behold I come (please note the active verb "come" rather than I "will come" which is future tense) as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest He walk naked, and they see his shame."Rev 16:15
I would agree with the M1-M7 except that these messages have already been given to the 7 covenant peoples (Rev ch2-3) Unless you are referring to 7 thunders (that we dont know )
Also look at the bowls. Do you not see the correlation to the trumpet and seal that come after them indicating they are referring to one and the same group.

[TasManOfGod]

I have been instructed that at the coronation of the King in Israel, the new King visited the Temple were he opened a copy of the Torah (i.e. Covenant) that had been sealed by the last king on the day of his coronation. He then proceeding to make a new copy by hand and then seal it for the next King. Can anyone confirm/refute this? I do believe that I would cry to if I thought that perhaps the new covenant could not be installed and the King Messiah could assume His Kingdom mmm interesting -particularly as I see the seven "seals" as representing the seven covenants made with mankind. It is not a coincidence that the Lord who is part of each covenant will be called "King of Kings" and that it was only He who could open the seals

[EchadHashem]

Mark 16:22 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

One thing that I wonder is how to know which coming this is:

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Here we see the Son of man coming to the Heavenly temple. We need to watch and be ready concerning this because we do not want to be apart of the foolish virgins. There are other refs to this...

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

It is possible that this refs to His appearance to the earthly temple. If so, there are three times that Yashua comes...1. To the earthly temple, 2. To the Heavenly Temple, and 3. To the Earth bringing His reward with him.

Just some thoughts. Sometimes I wonder which coming is referred to in some of the Brit Chadesha statements that mentions Yeshua's coming.

Shalom.

[visionary]

Mark 16:22 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

One thing that I wonder is how to know which coming this is:

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Here we see the Son of man coming to the Heavenly temple. We need to watch and be ready concerning this because we do not want to be apart of the foolish virgins. There are other refs to this...
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

As this verses indicates, Jesus went up in the clouds to heaven to appear before the Ancient of Days as Dan 7:13 saw. From the time of Daniel til Jesus returned to heaven. This terrible beast in Daniel with horns is the government in power at the time of Christ death. Ten horns are the political countries that defeated this empire.

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

If anyone has experience a Holy Experience,...he does.... He shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, (seek and ye shall find) shall suddenly come to His temple, and even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of Hosts. Behold he stands at the door and knock and if any man hear His voice, and let him in, he will come in and sup with him and he with me.

It is possible that this refs to His appearance to the earthly temple. If so, there are three times that Yashua comes...1. To the earthly temple, 2. To the Heavenly Temple, and 3. To the Earth bringing His reward with him.
Amen

Just some thoughts. Sometimes I wonder which coming is referred to in some of the Brit Chadesha statements that mentions Yeshua's coming. ???? Not wise in the Messianic Way yet but working on it.

Shalom.
Shalom
Visionary :wave:

[mythbuster]

There are two ways of reading Revelations concerning the chronological order of the 7 Seals (S) 7 Trumpets (T) and 7 bowls (B).
The most common order and is how they appear is:
S1,S2,S3,S4,S5,S6,S7,T1,T2,T3,T4,T5,T6,T7,B1,B2,B3,B4,B5,B6,B7
However my way of reading it is far less popular and is:
S1,T1,B1,S2,T2,B2,S3,T3,B3,S4,T4,B4,S5,T5,B5,S6,T6,B6,S7,T7,B7
Does anybody else agree with me on this?...
Editied quote by moi.

I have the seventh seal containing the seven trumpets and the seventh trumpet containing the seven bowls. Sort of an intensification. But time will tell.

Peace be multiplied.

[visionary]

It would be very important if we could have coronation rules on documents, announcements and such. If at the coronation of Yeshua, once the kingdoms and the powers be placed under His rule, He now has the authority from the Father to open the seven seals...like you said mythbuster...(just thinking about what you are implicating here).. at the seven seal, then the trumpets begin to sound......So are the messages to the churches with the seven seals and kind of like the history since Yeshua returned to heaven. Where as the seventh seal where the mystery of God is finished, we see the ceremonial fall feasts about to proceed and the Feast of Trumpets begin to sound????

[mythbuster]

For me, just a straight reading of Revelation 5 and 6 indicates that the Lamb standing as slain means that He starts with the seals right after his crucifixion. This puts the four horses, the first four seals, from the time of the first century to now. The fifth seal is the cry from the martyred saints and the sixth is a great earthquake, a warning to those on earth that the great tribulation (the last 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week) is about to begin. Then in chapter 8 the seventh seal is the seven trumpets.

[visionary]

Rev 10:2,5,8 tells of the passing of the book in Rev 5 opened by the lamb slain ... and the visions that came with each seal opened. But from the angel into the hands of the one who is to prophesy again before many people, and nations, and tongues, and kings is the preaching of what is in the book given to the people. This occurs after the opening of the seals and the sound of the trumpets. So do we have a repeat in a 3 1/2 year span that can truly be called the trime of trouble such as the world has ever seen....part of the.. was, is not, and is to come.. scene?????

[mythbuster]

[mythbuster]

Rev 10:2,5,8 tells of the passing of the book in Rev 5 opened by the lamb slain ... and the visions that came with each seal opened. But from the angel into the hands of the one who is to prophesy again before many people, and nations, and tongues, and kings is the preaching of what is in the book given to the people. This occurs after the opening of the seals and the sound of the trumpets. So do we have a repeat in a 3 1/2 year span that can truly be called the trime of trouble such as the world has ever seen....part of the.. was, is not, and is to come.. scene?????
The scroll may be the same scroll as in chapter 5. But here it is unsealed and opened to what is left, hence small. The angel I believe is Christ, the strong Angel.
Here are visions inserted between the sixth and seventh trumpet
Time will tell
Peace.

[visionary]

most interesting times it will be, and as you said we will see.

shalom

visionary

[mythbuster]

shalom

[koilias]

shalomShalom u'brakhot guys!

Just skimmed the thread..very interesting. In my M.A. in NT Studies in Israel I focused on Yohannine and Early Jewish mysticism.

You may want to know of a very helpful technique in reading early Jewish apocalypses which unravels the "hidden order" of the the text.

The most important concepts you need to understand Jewish mysticism are to know the sealed ("hermetic") doctrines of Ma'ase B'resheet, the study of the Genesis Creation, and Ma'ase Merkavah, the study of the Chariot of the presense of G-d. Knowing these two doctrines unravels the mysteries of Revelation.

The 'sevens' or 'weeks' of Revelation are organized according to Ma'ase B'resheet principles, what Yohannan calls the "seven thunders", which in Hebrew is "seven voices". The seventh item of each of those weeks is always a Ma'ase Merkavah scene (a heavenly throne room scene, corresponding to the Shabbat), which divides between each week.

Each week follows the pattern of the Creation Week. Therefore each item always corresponds to a particular Creation Day which is it's main theme. First you need to know that the organization of the creation days are paired as follows:

Days 1 and 4 -- Heaven days
Days 2 and 5 -- Sea (and Sky) days
Days 3 and 6 -- Earth days
Day 7 -- Throne room (Merkavah)

The weeks, except for the first (the Letters) and the fifth (the bowls) are out of order however. You need to first realize which Creation Day is being spoken about. The thematic order of the days, as they correspond to the Creation week, are as follows:

Seven Letters --- 1,2,3--4,5,6--7
Seven Seals --- 1,2,3--6,5,4--7 (the second group is reversed)
Seven Trumpets-- 3,2,1--4,5,6--7 (the first group is reversed)
Seven 'Acts' --- 4,5,6--1,2,3--7 (the groups are switched)
Seven Bowls --- 1,2,3--4,5,6--7 (the order is restored)
Babylon's demise-- 6,5,4--3,2,1--7 (the order is completely reversed)
Yeshua's kingdom-- 7 (the millenial Shabbat)
New Heaven and Earth-- the Eternal Shabbat ("Eigth Day" according to the early church fathers)

There is much, much more to detail, but if you are interested feel free to ask.

It is important to know that Yohannan is working with an advanced Jewish symbological system which ties together in the Jewish mind the entire Bible, in order to memorize it. Yohannan has the Bible memorized according to the template of the Creation Week.

Blessings on your studies.

[Flavius]

Koilias, that was an awesome post man.

I was wondering if you may have any incites on Elija and Elisha.Like when they visited those towns before Elija was takin.I kinda suspect there is a reason for each of those towns listed.And also the fire coming down from Heaven twice and maybe what the 50 soldiers symbolised.

Well I'll have to go back and see other things you have written.

Thanks for the cool post.

:o

[koilias]

Koilias, that was an awesome post man.

I was wondering if you may have any incites on Elija and Elisha.Like when they visited those towns before Elija was takin.I kinda suspect there is a reason for each of those towns listed.And also the fire coming down from Heaven twice and maybe what the 50 soldiers symbolised.

Well I'll have to go back and see other things you have written.

Thanks for the cool post.

:oOn Elijah and Elisha...hmm.

I know that Elisha seems to have the powers of Moses (turn water to blood) and Elijah (revive people from death). Elisha has a "double-portion" of Elijah, because he has Elijah's powers as well as Moses' powers...just my belief. There is a dichotomous relationship between Moses and Elijah in Jewish literature (notice that Elijah ascends when he crosses back over to Jordan to be with Moses...in other words Elijah performed the deeds Moses could not perform in Israel, because Moses was not allowed to cross the Jordan...he fulfilled Moses' unfulfilled mission).

Yeshua has Elisha's "double portion" as well (of all the prophets he imitates Elisha more than anyone else)...he performs the miracles of Elisha: Moses and Elijah combined. He turns water to life.

[koilias]

By the way, when Yeshua revives the youth, he does it on the same region (Mt. Gilboa I believe) that Elisha also once revived a youth. Like Elisha he also "feeds" people miraculously.

Remember that Elijah could only ask for water at a well (he is a "fire" prophet), but Moses himself drew water at the well (he is a "water" prophet). Yeshua asks the Samaritan woman for water (in the mold of Elijah) but he then tells her that he can draw the water which quenches all thirst (in the mold of Moses). A careful Jewish reader would pick up on these subtle typologies!;)