praying to dead people

[marciebaby]

I copied this from the SFPC board. Would anyone care to comment? I know Anglicans aren't as into praying to "dead" folks as the RC's (from what I know), but it would still be interesting to hear what y'all have to say.




Why I think praying to dead people is wrong

You know, the light just clicked. I once heard praying to dead 'Christians' was simular to asking others to pray for you. Sounds good. But I couldn't figure out what was missing, and now I got it. Very simplistic, I know, but here are my thoughts. I have never prayed to my friends to ask them to pray for me, I simply ask them when I see them. I can't pray to them to ask them to pray for me, as they don't hear my prayers, they are not everywhere at once. God may hear my prayers, and God may decide to get someone to pray for me, but when I pray directly to my friends, I am pretty much taking God out of the picture, and those are my friends who are alive. The dead ones I will never see face to face. To pray to them and to ask them to pray for us is saying they are in fact onmipresent, which we all know they aren't. Therefore it would be just as impossible to pray to a dead 'saint' as it would be for me to pray to my 'alive friends', and I can't see either helping me much.

Again, simple little light that came on, but I thought it was cool.

[gitlance]

I copied this from the SFPC board. Would anyone care to comment? I know Anglicans aren't as into praying to "dead" folks as the RC's (from what I know), but it would still be interesting to hear what y'all have to say.




Why I think praying to dead people is wrong

You know, the light just clicked. I once heard praying to dead 'Christians' was simular to asking others to pray for you. Sounds good. But I couldn't figure out what was missing, and now I got it. Very simplistic, I know, but here are my thoughts. I have never prayed to my friends to ask them to pray for me, I simply ask them when I see them. I can't pray to them to ask them to pray for me, as they don't hear my prayers, they are not everywhere at once. God may hear my prayers, and God may decide to get someone to pray for me, but when I pray directly to my friends, I am pretty much taking God out of the picture, and those are my friends who are alive. The dead ones I will never see face to face. To pray to them and to ask them to pray for us is saying they are in fact onmipresent, which we all know they aren't. Therefore it would be just as impossible to pray to a dead 'saint' as it would be for me to pray to my 'alive friends', and I can't see either helping me much.

Again, simple little light that came on, but I thought it was cool.

If we are praying in faith, asking the deceased saints to pray to God on our behalf, how can we be leaving God out of the picture, when He is the "author and finisher of our faith"?

[PaladinValer]

We Anglicans believe in the Communion of Saints; that the Church is United no matter what. The Churches Militant, Suffering, and Triumphant are One, not separate.

The dead hear my petitions. I can pray for my dead great aunt. It is a wonderful experience!

[CFoxDWH]

The modern connotations of the word 'pray' serve to really muddy this issue. You can 'pray' to your friends asking them to pray for you, if you were to say something like "I pray thee, pray for me." Also, while the Saints no longer have physical bodies, your friends on Earth do, so the asking is necessarily done a bit differently. Disregard this if it doesn't make sense.

[julian the apostate]

i remember before i became a christian, asking God to please have someone (anyone) pray for me

it worked

[PaladinValer]

It makes perfect sense. :)

And welcome to STR! :wave:

[gtsecc]

The only reason we can do this is because of Christ, and in that way it is an affirmation of Christ. He has defeated death and even that will not separate us from those who are gone. All Christians who say the The Apostle's Creed are saying that they believe this.



I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. AMEN.

Why do some Protestants get confused about this?



They may not say the creed.
They may say it, but not know what it means.
The most explicit place where we are told to do this is in the deutero Canon.
it is simply another remnant of anti-Catholicism

[marciebaby]

ya, but Glen, if I asked you to pray for me right now (outloud) you wouldn't hear me because you're on the other side of town!!! But if I asked you when you were right in front of me, you could hear. How can you insure that the "departed" saints could hear you? Like the OP said, wouldn't that imply omnipotence if they could hear everyone from everywhere all the time?

[gtsecc]

ya, but Glen, if I asked you to pray for me right now (outloud) you wouldn't hear me because you're on the other side of town!!! But if I asked you when you were right in front of me, you could hear. How can you insure that the "departed" saints could hear you? Like the OP said, wouldn't that imply omnipotence if they could hear everyone from everywhere all the time?
Well, we take it on faith.
Why do I believe it?
Because the church has always taught it and affirmed it in the creed.
Then why do I believe some churches teach against it?
Becausee I think they are ignorant or anti-catholic.
If it is a common belief between the Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox - it is a pretty solid belief.

[benedictine]

The most common explanation is that they are morealive than on Earth, and being in a higher plane of being(such as Paradise or Heaven) is advantaegous to letting this happen.

[Fish and Bread]

The phrase communion of saints does not imply that one should pray to saints. It simply means that we're part of a wider community of people on earth and in heaven, it's not a guarantee of instant communications access any more than being in communion with a peasant in China is a guarantee that we can communicate with that person through prayer.

John

[julian the apostate]

regarding asking the church in suffering or triumphant to pray for us

some people find it helpful, some people dont

[gitlance]

What we need to realize when it comes to this subject is this:

As a Christian, though you are required to believe in the Communion of Saints (so say the Creeds), you are not required to practice the benefits thereof. Therefore, it is not necessary to criticize someone who uses this gift of God to its advantage, or to criticize someone who does not wish to use it. It's a matter of personal piety, and one which really does not lend itself to an argument. In many ways it could be like arguing whether or not to make the sign of the cross. Sure, it's an excellent prayer that holds great power, but if someone doesn't wish to use that power, it's their decision.

We all, as Anglicans, accept the Communion of Saints. However, we all, as Anglicans, do not have to fully utilise that belief -- it is not necessary to our salvation that we pray to the saints or Mary, though it certainly is a great help and comfort!

[marciebaby]

I was raised Presbyterian, and we were always taught that the communion of saints referred to the earthly "living" saints: The body of all believers, that we as a community profess Jesus as Lord

[gitlance]

I was raised Presbyterian, and we were always taught that the communion of saints referred to the earthly "living" saints: The body of all believers, that we as a community profess Jesus as Lord

John Calvin's 16th century interpretation of that clause in the creed is not the historic understanding of the Communion of Saints.

[julian the apostate]

i have prayed to dead people in the past, with mix results

however i do think that the term dead is a bit weird in a way to be using about the church suffering and the church triumphant

[trooper]

gitlance has it dead on. give it a shot, though. as someone who lost a mother too early, I find it profoundly important to realize that those that are now with God speak to Him and that their prayers are just as important now as they were when they were with us.

[ethereal hope]

In addition to the great posts on this already, I'd add that there's scriptural backing for our departed saints being "active". The most cited one is Rev 6:9,10, with the souls of the departed faithful crying out "How long?", which strongly indicates they're aware of events on earth.

Then in Rev 8:3,4, the angel is adding to the prayers of "all the saints". I personally find it hard to believe that if departed saints are up in Paradise or Heaven, and are aware of happenings on earth, that their prayers aren't included in the "all the saints" of Rev 8:3,4. So, if one accepts that premise, ...what else could they be praying for? They're already good-to-go, if you get my meaning. (They've got their white robes, as per Rev 6:11.)

As well-explained in other posts, asking intercession is possible only through Christ (we're part of His Body).

And we all pray directly to and through Christ, but there's scriptural backing for asking for the prayers of the righteous. Like James 5:16, or 1Pet 3:12. While some people limit their requests to their priest, bishop, or parish -- which is fine to do, of course -- it seems very reasonable to ask the litany of faithful departed, who have already run the good race and been given a white robe, to pray for us, since they're surely counted among the "righteous".

(Not to mention, I like to think that homeless people and all less-popular parts of God's creation have plenty of people praying for them. How else did the Lazarus in Jesus' parable keep from mugging the rich man? Where did all that patience and humility come from? :) )

[PaladinValer]

ethereal hope, there is no one in heaven as of yet, save a few.

All the dead are in sheol. They stay there until the Second Coming and Resurrection.

[Parishoner]

When I pray the Holy Rosary, I've always considered that I am praying "with" Mary and not "to" Mary. I've never really thought that I was praying to a dead person.

[Simon_Templar]

One thing that helped me understand this, and see that it indeed is scriptural (the communion of the church both here and in paradise) was carefuly reading Hebrews Chapters 11 and 12.

[thejesusfish90]

But how do you know if these people are indeed saints?... I mean a person may be able to act and say things that a christian may say, and we may all think they were the greatest christian in the world... But they may have no faith in christ whatsoever, how are we to know if they willl indeed intercede for us if it is indeed the lord who judges their souls, whose judgement we dont know about here on earth?.... I prefer to just steer clear of it to avoid praying to the saint themselves, and so thus holding them in a light similar to the way in which we would hold God...

YBIC

Chris

[gitlance]

But how do you know if these people are indeed saints?... I mean a person may be able to act and say things that a christian may say, and we may all think they were the greatest christian in the world... But they may have no faith in christ whatsoever, how are we to know if they willl indeed intercede for us if it is indeed the lord who judges their souls, whose judgement we dont know about here on earth?.... I prefer to just steer clear of it to avoid praying to the saint themselves, and so thus holding them in a light similar to the way in which we would hold God...

YBIC

Chris

"You will know them by their fruits..." Matthew 7:16

[Simon_Templar]

Paladin, I don't know Anglican doctrine on the afterlife, but my impression from scripture is that when Jesus died and rose again, he went to sheol and took the righteous souls from there and brought them with him to Paradise which (though not well understood) is probably synonymous with 3rd heaven (that paul refrences). I think this 3rd heaven is in the hebrew context of 7 heavens, not the common christian view of there being 3 heavens with the third being God's throne.

I'm curious as to why you hold your view, and if that is the standard anglican view etc etc.

[Albion]

"You will know them by their fruits..." Matthew 7:16

If that were taken seriously, many "saints" now receiving prayers from us on Earth would not be saints. Many did good but also plenty that was not very honorable. Many were made saints by acclamation by the ordinary people, not through any thing that could be considered objective. And that's to say nothing of the saints many people prayed to, trusting in their "fruits" I suppose, who turned out to be total myths! People who never were. Christopher, for instance, or Joasaph, the story of Gautama Buddha that was gradually turned by oral transmission into a Christian saint who never was. You no doubt remember that the Roman Catholic Church a few years back had to tell people not to keep on praying to a list of these people, for the simple reason that they never existed.

[gitlance]

Paladin, I don't know Anglican doctrine on the afterlife, but my impression from scripture is that when Jesus died and rose again, he went to sheol and took the righteous souls from there and brought them with him to Paradise which (though not well understood) is probably synonymous with 3rd heaven (that paul refrences). I think this 3rd heaven is in the hebrew context of 7 heavens, not the common christian view of there being 3 heavens with the third being God's throne.

I'm curious as to why you hold your view, and if that is the standard anglican view etc etc.

Jesus went to preach the Gospel to those in sheol (the realm of the dead), so that all might have an opportunity to hear the Truth.

Because the Resurrection has not happened yet, the saints are in sheol along with the wicked -- sheol is divided into two areas: paradise and hades. Their primary task is prayer. At the resurrection, there will be the judgement:the saints will be raised to everlasting life in Heaven, and the wicked will be raised to everlasting life in the Lake of Fire.

[gitlance]

If that were taken seriously, many "saints" now receiving prayers from us on Earth would not be saints. Many did good but also plenty that was not very honorable. Many were made saints by acclamation by the ordinary people, not through any thing that could be considered objective. And that's to say nothing of the saints many people prayed to, trusting in their "fruits" I suppose, who turned out to be total myths! People who never were. Christopher, for instance, or Joasaph, the story of Gautama Buddha that was gradually turned by oral transmission into a Christian saint who never was. You no doubt remember that the Roman Catholic Church a few years back had to tell people not to keep on praying to a list of these people, for the simple reason that they never existed.

I, for one, do not ask for the prayers of saints who I don't know existed. I only ask for prayers from those who are explicitly in the Scriptures, or who we have writings from confirming their place in the Church. I believe it's pretty reasonable to assume that the Blessed ever-Virgin Mary lived, as well as St. Joseph, St. Peter, St. Paul, St. Luke, St. John, St. Timothy, St. John Chrysostom, St. Ignatius (Loyola and Antioch), St. Teresa Avila, etc, etc.

[Simon_Templar]

gitlance,

is this the standard anglican view? and how does this reconcile with hebrews chapter 12 which seems to state that the angels and the general assembly of the church of the firstborn and the spirits of just men all dwell, present tense, in the heavenly jerusalem.. it states that this is the community that we are made part of (again present tense)?

[CSMR]

Praying to saints in heaven is semantically dubious.

[Albion]

I, for one, do not ask for the prayers of saints who I don't know existed.

In itself, that seems a good idea.

I only ask for prayers from those who are explicitly in the Scriptures, or who we have writings from confirming their place in the Church. I believe it's pretty reasonable to assume that the Blessed ever-Virgin Mary lived, as well as St. Joseph, St. Peter, St. Paul, St. Luke, St. John, St. Timothy, St. John Chrysostom, St. Ignatius (Loyola and Antioch), St. Teresa Avila, etc, etc.

Sure they lived, but we don't know if all those people are saints, do we?

In any case, praying to them has no place in the Anglican Prayerbook, and for the reason that the practice has no Biblical sanction.

[gitlance]

gitlance,

is this the standard anglican view? and how does this reconcile with hebrews chapter 12 which seems to state that the angels and the general assembly of the church of the firstborn and the spirits of just men all dwell, present tense, in the heavenly jerusalem.. it states that this is the community that we are made part of (again present tense)?

I would not say that there is a "standard" Anglican view. I hold to a view that is much more Orthodox in nature. Some Anglicans will hold to a more Roman view (complete with Purgatory). Then again, others will hold to your typical Protestant heaven/hell-immediately view. It all depends on who you talk to.

The Orthodox view, of which I hold, is probably the oldest view on death in Christianity.

[gitlance]

Praying to saints in heaven is semantically dubious.

To those who have never seen its effects, it may be full of uncertainty... but then again, that is the same argument the atheist uses for not praying to the Blessed Trinity.

[Albion]

I would not say that there is a "standard" Anglican view. I hold to a view that is much more Orthodox in nature. Some Anglicans will hold to a more Roman view (complete with Purgatory). Then again, others will hold to your typical Protestant heaven/hell-immediately view. It all depends on who you talk to.

The Orthodox view, of which I hold, is probably the oldest view on death in Christianity.

Well, I mentioned in my post of a minute ago that the Book of Common Prayer does not include prayers to the dead/saints/angels, nor do any Anglican confessional statements--the Articles of Religion, Lambeth Quadrilateral, etc.

So, that would be the Anglican standard, even if Anglicans customarily do whatever they choose to do.

[Albion]

To those who have never seen its effects, it may be full of uncertainty... but then again, that is the same argument the atheist uses for not praying to the Blessed Trinity.

No, those are two very miseading arguments. We are not ruled by the emotions of other people or by people who aren't even Christian in the first place. If Atheists are wrong about there not being a God, they don't become authorities on Christianity!

[gitlance]

Sure they lived, but we don't know if all those people are saints, do we?

In any case, praying to them has no place in the Anglican Prayerbook, and for the reason that the practice has no Biblical sanction.

Well, at the very least, there are plenty of saints and saints-days in the prayer book. That at least gives merit as to whom we accept as a saint.

Also, there can be arguments made both from the Apocrypha and from Revelation that the saints are praying, and that we can ask for their prayers. Not to mention there is historical support in the early Church for this, at least as far as the Blessed Virgin Mary is concerned. (And I'll be honest with you, I very rarely ask any other saints to pray for me, other than Her).

Yet again, it must be noted that this is a secondary issue only. As far as I can tell, a lack of participating in the Communion of Saints does not alter a person's salvation to the negative.

"In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity."

[gitlance]

Well, I mentioned in my post of a minute ago that the Book of Common Prayer does not include prayers to the dead/saints/angels, nor do any Anglican confessional statements--the Articles of Religion, Lambeth Quadrilateral, etc.

So, that would be the Anglican standard, even if Anglicans customarily do whatever they choose to do.

The Anglican standard is to not regulate something that is not necessary for salvation. Even though the prayer books do not directly sanction this, they do not condemn it either. (And we are not talking about the worshipping of relics and all of that in the Articles.)

[gitlance]

No, those are two very miseading arguments. We are not ruled by the emotions of other people or by people who aren't even Christian in the first place. If Atheists are wrong about there not being a God, they don't become authorities on Christianity!

I didn't say they were authorities on Christianity.

However, an atheist tells me that he/she won't believe in God because he/she has not seen any affects of previous attemps at praying to God.

The skeptic when it comes to the Communion of Saints will say that they won't believe in it because they do not see any affects from it. That is not a valid argument.

Asking for the prayers of saints does not, in any way, hinder my relationship with Christ -- and I would venture to say that it doesn't hinder anybody else's (unless they make that into an idol). In fact, it has only improved my understanding of and love for Christ.

And also, it is not an "emotional experience". You seem to equate a lot of things you deem unnecessary as "emotional experiences". I do not run my religious/spiritual life on emotions.

[Albion]

The Anglican standard is to not regulate something that is not necessary for salvation.

That sounds like a casual comment picked up somewhere along the way. The fact is that the Church has indeed taken stands on many things that are not necessarily to salvation. The historic Episcopate, for instance. Prayers to the saints are not necessary for salvation, but the Church has a stand against the propriety of doing this, even if it does not bear upon salvation.

The question was asked about the Anglican standard in the matter of prayer to saints. The STANDARD is against it. What people do is something else.

The BCP certainly does stand against praying to saints. That's why some Anglo-Catholics have chose not to use the Book of Common Prayer of their church and use a Roman Catholic-like Missal instead. The Missals include prayers to the saints that were intentionally removed from the BCP, not to mention other places in which the practice is refuted in the liturgy.

[gitlance]

That sounds like a casual comment picked up somewhere along the way. The fact is that the Church has indeed taken stands on many things that are not necessarily to salvation. The historic Episcopate, for instance. Prayers to the saints are not necessary for salvation, but the Church has a stand against the propriety of doing this, even if it does not bear upon salvation.

I would venture to say that the historic Episcopate is indeed necessary for preserving the full truth of salvation.

Nowhere in the body of the prayer book, or in its catechism, are praying to the saints forbidden.

Not to mention, the very fact that the Creeds are required statements of belief in Anglicanism assert that praying to/with the saints is acceptable, though not mandated. The historic understanding of the Communion of Saints has been within praying to/with (at the very least) the Blessed Virgin Mary -- and as time progressed other saints came into play as well.

The question was asked about the Anglican standard in the matter of prayer to saints. The STANDARD is against it. What people do is something else.

See above.



That's why some Anglo-Catholics have chose not to use the Book of Common Prayer of their church and use a Roman Catholic-like Missal instead. The Missals include prayers to the saints that were intentionally removed from the BCP, not to mention other places in which the practice is refuted in the liturgy.

Well, I use the BCP -- and I also use a prayer book compliled by the Canon of Westminster Cathedral.... funny, he apparently believes in the Communion of Saints as well.

[Albion]

I didn't say they were authorities on Christianity.

However, an atheist tells me that he/she won't believe in God because he/she has not seen any affects of previous attemps at praying to God.

The skeptic when it comes to the Communion of Saints will say that they won't believe in it because they do not see any affects from it. That is not a valid argument.

And neither is it fair or logical to argue that if Atheists and skeptics say one thing, that everything said by a believer is right! Both may be wrong.

Moreover, the argument from emotions almost always is, especially when compared to the Word of God. We have in scripture a guide that is truth; with emotions like you are outlining we have...well, emotional responses that prove nothing.

You and I both have encountered many people who swear up and down that they heard the voice of God telling them to stand on a street with a sign, that Jesus made the Red Sox win, or that viewing the stain on the side of a corn silo that looks somewhat like the Virgin Mary are straight from God because they feeeeeel it to be so. No. The next thing will be holy vomiting;)

[Albion]

I would venture to say that the historic Episcopate is indeed necessary for preserving the full truth of salvation.

Baptists and Methodists cannot be saved? I don't think that's correct, Lance, nor has our church ever taken that stand. Anyway, the point remains--whichever example you want to face up to--that the Church has taken definitive stands on many subjects that are not, strictly speaking, required for salvation.

Nowhere in the body of the prayer book, or in its catechism, are praying to the saints forbidden.

First, to say that with a straight face, you would have to be unaware of the history of the BCP and what it says. When we state, during "Mass," for instance, that Christ is "our only Mediator and Advocate" it means that Christ is our only Mediator and Advocate! Praying to the saints is a direct opposite of that--and the reason for the BCP woring.

Second, if the test of this is "nowhere...are praying to the saints forbidden" then we would have also to say that nowhere is abortion forbidden in the Bible. That kind of argument is self-delusional. The fact that prayers to the saints were removed from the service books previously used, and that there is no prayer to the saints IN the BCP, proves the point. The wording is what it is for a reason. But, I can only tell you this and know that you know it. Nothing can make you admit it, so let's drop it.

Well, I use the BCP -- and I also use a prayer book compliled by the Canon of Westminster Cathedral.... funny, he apparently believes in the Communion of Saints as well.

a Roman Catholic. And your point is......?

We were discussing ANGLICAN usage.

But anyway, it's not "funny." We ALL beleive in the Communion of Saints, Lance. PRAYING to saints is what we ought not do.

[gitlance]

Baptists and Methodists cannot be saved? I don't think that's correct, Lance, nor has our church ever taken that stand. Anyway, the point remains--whichever example you want to face up to--that the Church has taken definitive stands on many subjects that are not, strictly speaking, required for salvation.

You put words in my mouth! I never said somebody could not be saved outside of the Church! But the historic understanding of the Epicopate is that it serves to preserve the FULL truth of salvation. That is why the church is catholic, because she preserves the WHOLE faith. That is not to say that people cannot get saved outside of the Church. Of course people can. You know it and I know it. It does not mean, however, that they are in line with the full truth of the Gospel -- you and I see examples everyday of Christians outside the Church saying and doing all sorts of ludicrous things they claim is doctrine.



First, to say that with a straight face, you would have to be unaware of the history of the BCP and what it says. When we state, during "Mass," for instance, that Christ is "our only Mediator and Advocate" it means that Christ is our only Mediator and Advocate! Praying to the saints is a direct opposite of that--and the reason for the BCP woring.

Jesus Christ is indeed the ONLY mediator and advocate.

The Saints are neither mediators nor advocates. They are intercessors. This shows that you are unfamiliar with the doctrine of the Communion of Saints.

Second, if the test of this is "nowhere...are praying to the saints forbidden" then we would have also to say that nowhere is abortion forbidden in the Bible. That kind of argument is self-delusional. The fact that prayers to the saints were removed from the service books previously used, and that there is no prayer to the saints IN the BCP, proves the point. The wording is what it is for a reason. But, I can only tell you this and know that you know it. Nothing can make you admit it, so let's drop it.

The killing of an innocent child is murder. I venture to say that's in the Bible...

Oh, a Roman Catholic. And your point is......?

Excuse me, I meant to say St. Paul's Cathedral. (Though it doesn't matter either way.) Canon Pastor Martin Warner is an Anglican.

[Albion]

You put words in my mouth! I never said somebody could not be saved outside of the Church!

I didn't put any words in your mouth. I asked you a question. "Baptists and Methodists can't be saved?" Can they? Since you contended that the historic Episcopate is necessary to salvation, how can those who do not have the historic Episcopate for their sacraments, etc. be saved?

But the historic understanding of the Epicopate is that it serves to preserve the FULL truth of salvation. That is why the church is catholic, because she preserves the WHOLE faith. That is not to say that people cannot get saved outside of the Church. Of course people can. You know it and I know it.

I have no idea what you believe. I only go by what you post. So when you say that the Episcopate is necessary for salvation, I interpret that as meaning that people who worship in churches without the Episcopate are not receiving what you consider necessary for salvation. How else could that be interpreted?

It does not mean, however, that they arfe in line with the full truth of the Gospel -- you and I see examples everyday of Christians outside the Church saying and doing all sorts of ludicrous things they claim is doctrine.

Sure, but that wasn't what you said. You introduced the idea of "necessary for salvation" in order to say that the Episcopate IS "necessary for salvation." Now you see the error of that comment.


Jesus Christ is indeed the ONLY mediator and advocate.

The Saints are neither mediators nor advocates. They are intercessors.

Mediator maybe, but advocate no. You pray to the dead because you want them to advocate your cause with the Father. You can call it intercession, but it means advocacy as used in the BCP

This shows that you are unfamiliar with the doctrine of the Communion of Saints.

Actually, it shows that you are. The Communion of Saints is not Prayer to the dead. Neither theologically or logically does the one necessitate the other.

The killing of an innocent child is murder. I venture to say that's in the Bible...

But "abortion" is not. So the point is that exact wording does not establish what is being taught, whether it be murder of unborns or prayers being for God alone.

Excuse me, I meant to say St. Paul's Cathedral. (Though it doesn't matter either way.) Canon Pastor Martin Warner is an Anglican.

So you found a single canon somewhere and that's supposed to establish the Anglican "standard" in these things. How ridiculous. In fact, this is all getting silly. The Anglican standard is no praying to saints, but we all know that there are Anglicans who believe whatever they want. The question was from Simon Templar about the Anglican standard and it's been explained with reference to the confessions and liturgy we use...and oh yes, the canon of St. Paul's doesn't adhere to them. Big whoop. This is all the further I am going to go with this one since its all been said.

[gitlance]

You said "necessary for salvation." That means the same thing.



I have no idea what you believe. I only go by what you post. So when you say that the Episcopate is necessary for salvation, I interpret that as meaning that people who worship in churches without the Episcopate are not receiving what you consider necessary for salvation. How else could that be interpreted?



Sure, but that wasn't what you said. You made reference to "necessary for salvation." I guess you see the error of that point now. So, back to the heart of this discussion: the church can and has taken stands that are not in the category of "necessary for salvation" and not praying to the saints is one.

Those outside the Church are not protected from falsities and heresies because they do not have the Christ-instituted governance of the Episcopate. Yes, salvation is possible outside the Church. But that does not mean that everything taught about salvation outside of the Church is correct. We have already established this. (Baptists saying baptism is not required, Jehovah's Witnesses saying there is no Trinity; Charismatics believing symbolic memorialism; Pentecostals requiring tongues....)




Typical double talk. Mediator maybe, but advocate no. You pray to the dead because you want them to advocate your cause with the Father, and don't deny it. You can call it intercession, but it means the same thing. More important, it meant the same thing to the writers of the Book of Common Prayer. So, every time you use it and say these words, decide if you are holding your fingers crossed behind your back while saying what you don't believe or if you should instead just not say them. But they still represent the Church's view.



Actually, it shows that you are. The Communion of Saints is not Prayer to the dead. Neither theologically or logically does the one necessitate the other.

Well, then I suppose we need to remove the "Prayers for the People" from the Prayer Book. And I'll be sure to quit asking my family and friends to pray to God for me... since apparently I should only pray to God for myself.

There is such a delusion in thought here. It's like as soon as a Christian dies, we aren't to have anything to do with them anymore. It's almost as if they become anathema to us. I hardly think that is a reflection of good ecclesiology.



But "abortion" is not. So the point is that exact wording does not establish what is being taught, whether it be murder of unborns or prayers being for God alone.

And the Scriptures do not forbid intercessory prayer... be it by someone on earth or by someone in the afterlife. In fact, the Scriptures command intercessory prayer.



He's a canon, for goodness sake. So what?

He's an Anglican.

[pmcleanj]

http://www1.christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=31230&stc=1This is an official moderator post. Thoughtful and impassioned debate is welcome on this board. It's generous of the posters in this thread to give so much of their time and energy to sharing their insights with other members.

Please be sure that in so doing, you treat one another with kindness and respect. In particular take care to listen (or in this case, read) as generously as you post. In your responses, take into account that misquoting a member or personal attacks on a member are not permitted under CF rules. A good technique for avoiding something that can be taken as an attack, is to avoid declarative sentences that use "you" in the subject position (for example, avoid "you think that...." or "you don't realize that ...".)

[Albion]

I said I wasn't going to post further on this, but I didn't get it edited until you were writing back. So this will have to be it. :)


Those outside the Church are not protected from falsities and heresies because they do not have the Christ-instituted governance of the Episcopate. Yes, salvation is possible outside the Church. But that does not mean that everything taught about salvation outside of the Church is correct. We have already established this. (Baptists saying baptism is not required, Jehovah's Witnesses saying there is no Trinity; Charismatics believing symbolic memorialism; Pentecostals requiring tongues....)

But the point was not that the episcopate is of some good to the church. I was saying that the episcopate is neither necessary to salvation nor the stance taken by our church.



Well, then I suppose we need to remove the "Prayers for the People" from the Prayer Book.

Are we discussing prayers to the dead or something else? Oh, yes, it's prayers to the DEAD. Prayers TO...and the DEAD.

There is such a delusion in thought here. It's like as soon as a Christian dies, we aren't to have anything to do with them anymore. It's almost as if they become anathema to us. I hardly think that is a reflection of good ecclesiology.

Delusion, huh? No one said anything about not having 'anything to do with' them. The subject was PRAYERS TO THE DEAD, NOT PRAYERS FOR THE DEAD. You just got through saying that they are intercessors for us, etc. and now you're onto a totally different matter--us praying for them.

And the Scriptures do not forbid intercessory prayer... be it by someone on earth or by someone in the afterlife.

Here we go again. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT INTERCESSORY PRAYER, per se.

Prayers for another person, such as you for me, is fine. It's also not prayer for the dead. And even if it were, prayers FOR the dead is not the topic, either. It's Prayers to the dead, period.


He's an Anglican.

OK. I didn't know that one man establishes what the Anglican standard in these matters is. You dismiss the BCP, the Articles, turn the Communion of Saints on its head...but one canon says what you like to hear, and somehow it's all supposed to be settled.:yawn:

Have a nice day, Lance.

[PaladinValer]

Albion, all Gitlance said was that apostolic churches contain the fullness of truth. That does not imply, as you think, that non-apostolic truths contain no truth; that's a logical fallacy to even suggest.

[gtsecc]

Since I don't believe in SOla Scriptura, I generally check things against the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox.
If both of them do something, I think that is just about all I need to believe it is orthodox (small "o").

[gitlance]

Since I don't believe in SOla Scriptura, I generally check things against the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox.
If both of them do something, I think that is just about all I need to believe it is orthodox (small "o").

And they have both been practicing this understanding of the Communion of Saints for centuries... especially the Orthodox, who have records of prayers to the saints since the beginning.

[gtsecc]

And they have both been practicing this understanding of the Communion of Saints for centuries... especially the Orthodox, who have records of prayers to the saints since the beginning.
That was my point.

[gitlance]

That was my point.

Yes, and I am grateful that you brought it up. Thank you!

[Albion]

And they have both been practicing this understanding of the Communion of Saints for centuries... especially the Orthodox, who have records of prayers to the saints since the beginning.

I generally feel that I am in the mainstream of Anglican thinking on the subject, knowing that the Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Reformed, and whatever other church might have a different one. Here, the question was asked of us what the Anglican 'standard' might be.

[gitlance]

I generally feel that I am in the mainstream of Anglican thinking on the subject, knowing that the Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Reformed, and whatever other church might have a different one. Here, the question was asked of us what the Anglican 'standard' might be.

And, according to every Anglican I have ever met, the standard when it comes to that subject is this:

I may not practice it, but I also don't see anything wrong with it.

OR

I practice it, and it's nice to know that somebody else does as well.

I have, never, until today, met an Anglican who would disparage somebody else for practicing the Communion of Saints. Then again, every Anglican I have ever met is in Communion with Canterbury, so that could make a difference. Even the more "evangelical" priests I know, while they may not practice it themselves, see nothing incompatible between it and Anglican theology/ecclesiology.

[murron]

And, according to every Anglican I have ever met, the standard when it comes to that subject is this:

I may not practice it, but I also don't see anything wrong with it.

OR

I practice it, and it's nice to know that somebody else does as well.

I have, ever, until today, met an Anglican who would disparage somebody else for practicing the Communion of Saints. Then again, every Anglican I have ever met is in Communion with Canterbury, so that could make a difference. Even the more "evangelical" priests I know, while they may not practice it themselves, see nothing incompatible between it and Anglican theology/ecclesiology.
Umm, our communion is not in communion with Canterbury - and we most definitely believe in the Communion of Saints.

[gtsecc]

In this we are praying, and pray that they might pray for us.
From the BCP of asking "dead people" to pray for us: p. 489 of the 1979 BCP:



Burial I

O God, the King of saints, we praise and magnify thy holy Name for all thy servants who have finished their course in thy faith and fear; for the blessed Virgin Mary; for the holy patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs; and for all other thy righteous servants, known to us and unknown; and we beseech thee that, encouraged by their examples, aided by their prayers, and strengthened by their fellowship, we also may be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; through the merits of thy Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

[gitlance]

Umm, our communion is not in communion with Canterbury - and we most definitely believe in the Communion of Saints.

I'm so glad to hear that. I know that the Anglican Catholic church and a few others similar to them believe in it. It's good to know that you do!

[Albion]

In this we are praying, and pray that they might pray for us.
From the BCP of asking "dead people" to pray for us: p. 489 of the 1979 BCP:



Burial I

O God, the King of saints, we praise and magnify thy holy Name for all thy servants who have finished their course in thy faith and fear; for the blessed Virgin Mary; for the holy patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs; and for all other thy righteous servants, known to us and unknown; and we beseech thee that, encouraged by their examples, aided by their prayers, and strengthened by their fellowship, we also may be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; through the merits of thy Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

1) Just where--at what part--in that passage do we find that we are praying that the dead will pray for us?

2) What, to you, is the difference between praying to dead people and asking something of dead people?

[Albion]

I have, never, until today, met an Anglican who would disparage somebody else for practicing the Communion of Saints.

You don't practice the Communion of Saints; you acknowledge the Communion of Saints!

Even the more "evangelical" priests I know, while they may not practice it themselves, see nothing incompatible between it and Anglican theology/ecclesiology.

There's a whole Anglican world out there that you probably haven't interviewed personally. Isn't that so?

[gtsecc]

Burial I

O God, the King of saints, we praise and magnify thy holy Name for all thy servants who have finished their course in thy faith and fear; for the blessed Virgin Mary; for the holy patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs; and for all other thy righteous servants, known to us and unknown; and we beseech thee that, encouraged by their examples, aided by their prayers, and strengthened by their fellowship, we also may be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; through the merits of thy Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
This is clearly a prayer asking dead people to pray for us. :confused: Is it not?

[gitlance]

pray (prhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gif)
v. prayed, pray·ing, prays
v. intr.

- To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: Pray be careful.
- To make a devout or earnest request for: I pray your permission to speak.

This is what we do when we pray to the saints... we are asking them to pray to God for us. It is no different than if I were to ask you to pray to God for me.


Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

James 5:16

[Svt4Him]

pray (prhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gif)
v. prayed, pray·ing, prays
v. intr.

- To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: Pray be careful.
- To make a devout or earnest request for: I pray your permission to speak.

This is what we do when we pray to the saints... we are asking them to pray to God for us. It is no different than if I were to ask you to pray to God for me.



See, that was the whole point of my original OP. Asking you to pray for me in one thing. Praying to you to pray for me is different, IMO. Can you tell me if you pray to your friends asking them to pray for you?

[gitlance]

See, that was the whole point of my original OP. Asking you to pray for me in one thing. Praying to you to pray for me is different, IMO. Can you tell me if you pray to your friends asking them to pray for you?

All "pray" means is "to ask". So yes, if I ask somebody to pray for me, I am "praying" them to pray for me. "Pray" and "ask" are synonymous in the understanding of the Communion of saints.

Ever heard someone say something like: "Pray tell?"

They mean, "Will you tell me?"

[Svt4Him]

Sure, but you have missed my point. I do not go to my closet and ask my friends to pray for me, I call them up or I see them. Pray, ask, wish, are all different terms used to denote different types of prayer, but I have never prayed that my friend would pray for me unless I am talking to them. In order for me to pray (let's not get too pedantic on this one) to my friends and ask them to pray for me, they either have to be there, or be omnipresent when I pray alone.

[gtsecc]

Well, I think all of us Christians have to believe that the Church was uncorrupted at least until they Canonized Scripture to form the Bible. So, if we see that they were doing something prior to this, how are we to reject it?

[gitlance]

Sure, but you have missed my point. I do not go to my closet and ask my friends to pray for me, I call them up or I see them. Pray, ask, wish, are all different terms used to denote different types of prayer, but I have never prayed that my friend would pray for me unless I am talking to them. In order for me to pray (let's not get too pedantic on this one) to my friends and ask them to pray for me, they either have to be there, or be omnipresent when I pray alone.

Well, I don't know how else to see our Blessed Mother in heaven or the saints in sheol to ask them directly... so I have to communicate to them in the only way I know how.

[PaladinValer]

Svt4Him,

1. First off, the whole lesson isn't about actually going literally into one's closet, but to not make a public sceen out of your worship.
2. Asking a "dead" saint to pray for you is no different than asking a "living" saint. Death has no hold anymore and we Christians (are supposed to) believe in the Communion of Saints. All saints, "living" or "dead," not just one or the other. They are all in Christ.
3. This is an Anglican/Old Catholic forum. It would be appreciated if you'd ask questions about what we believe instead of debate us on what we believe.

[gtsecc]

Svt4Him,

3. This is an Anglican/Old Catholic forum. It would be appreciated if you'd ask questions about what we believe instead of debate us on what we believe.
He got over here from the "original" thread in a different forum.
I think it is great that he is over here learning.

[Albion]

pray (prhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gif)
v. prayed, pray·ing, prays
v. intr.

- To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: Pray be careful.
- To make a devout or earnest request for: I pray your permission to speak.

This is what we do when we pray to the saints... we are asking them to pray to God for us. It is no different than if I were to ask you to pray to God for me.





Let's be completely honest now, everyone. When saints, such as Mary, are prayed to, they are not merely asked something. Churches have side altars dedicated to them, there are grottoes, shrines, votives, parades, Masses offered, intercessions have been promised to us in advance if we "pray" to them, not to mention promises of avoiding disasters ahead, being given the chance to repent at the last moments of our lives, cures from sickness obtained through the intercession of some saint, relics venerated, etc. And so much more. There is beyond question a cult (in the nicest sense of the word) of the Virgin and the other saints. There is also a widespread conviction that some saints are certain to deliver our desires--St. Jude, for instance--if we pray just right. That's a lot more than asking for a prayers to be directed to the Father.

Were it the case that people merely said aloud or whispered in their rooms, "St. X ask the father....for me. Thanks." it might be somewhat different. But we all know that that is not the real state of affairs.

[Svt4Him]

Svt4Him,
This is an Anglican/Old Catholic forum. It would be appreciated if you'd ask questions about what we believe instead of debate us on what we believe.

Actually I was the original poster of the thread, which was copied from another forum. Feel free to come over and discuss it there, as I shall not post in my hi-jacked thread again. ;)

But if you can answer if that makes these saints omnipresent, feel free to come to the Charismatic area and give it to me, as I am more than interested in knowing.

Thanks for having me over. :thumbsup:

[gtsecc]

Svt4Him, I think you ought to stay here. I doubt anyone in the original forum knows any of the reasons why folks might do this. Not that they are bad, I just recognize that it is about as far from your tradition as anything I can think of at the moment.

[gitlance]

Let's be completely honest now, everyone. When saints, such as Mary, are prayed to, they are not merely asked something. Churches have side altars dedicated to them, there are grottoes, shrines, votives, parades, Masses offered, intercessions have been promised to us in advance if we "pray" to them, not to mention promises of avoiding disasters ahead, being given the chance to repent at the last moments of our lives, cures from sickness obtained through the intercession of some saint, relics venerated, etc. And so much more. There is beyond question a cult (in the nicest sense of the word) of the Virgin and the other saints. There is also a widespread conviction that some saints are certain to deliver our desires--St. Jude, for instance--if we pray just right. That's a lot more than asking for a prayers to be directed to the Father.

Were it the case that people merely said aloud or whispered in their rooms, "St. X ask the father....for me. Thanks." it might be somewhat different. But we all know that that is not the real state of affairs.

This is what generally separates Anglicans from Roman Catholics. While there are plenty of exceptions, we -- as a general rule -- do not show as much devotion to the saints as RC's do. As I mentioned earlier, I rarely pray to any saints other than Our Blessed Mother, for I do not believe they have the same status as she does. And plus, I believe that they are praying for us anyway, whether or not we ask them.

But as long as the proper focus is kept on the Holy Trinity, I see the saints in sheol as no different from the saints on earth.