Methodist Theology Questions that i have,

[MoonlightParade]

hey there i am considered methodist because that is the church i am attending, and also, i took a denop test, and my ideas,according to the test, is closest to Methodism... can anyoen shed a light on what the Methodist belive as a whole???
Thanks!
Moonlight

[WiredSpirit]

Basically we believe in someone or something called "God." Not necessarily a creator, but something worthy of that name. At least that's the only common denominator I can find among United Methodists.

Anywho, your best resource is http://www.umc.org.

[WesleyJohn]

.

[MoonlightParade]

lol thanks JW, for that.. lol, i agree with all of those points, guess that makes me a Methodist by faith, and not by location now doesnt it? But does anyone have anything to add?

[ClementofRome]

Basically we believe in someone or something called "God." Not necessarily a creator, but something worthy of that name. At least that's the only common denominator I can find among United Methodists.

Anywho, your best resource is http://www.umc.org.

That is a sad commentary on Methodism...and one of the many reasons that I believe that the UMC will not be able to maintain the "U" for many more years.

[Theophorus]

Wow, alot of what you posted is right on. Am I right in my understanding that methodists come from an Anglican background as opposed to a puritan/presbytarian one?

Another question about this if anyone knows,



Through the regular celebration of Holy Communion, we participate in the risen presence of Jesus Christ and are thereby nourished for faithful discipleship.
WJ

what is meant by "risen presence" ?

[Julio]

I agree with all of those points; guess that makes me a Methodist by faith, and not by location now, doesn't it? But does anyone have anything to add?

Yes! One must also bear in mind that the historic doctrinal standards of Methodism, protected by Restrictive Rule #1 of the Book of Discipline (which rule, having been in force since 1808, prevents the General Conferece from ever overthrowing these standards), are Wesley's XXV Articles of Religion (http://www.cresourcei.org/creed25.html) along with his Standard Sermons and his Explanatory Notes on the New Testament. Historically, candidates for ministry in Methodism were required to read all these, and tested on their knowledge of them alone as the basis for determining their theological fitness for ministry. So read those articles too; Methodists have traditionally referred to them as "our doctrines"!

(A wonderful book on this matter, for those interested, is Thomas C. Oden's Doctrinal Standards in the Wesleyan Tradition [Grand Rapids:Zondervan, 1988].)

Wow, a lot of what you posted is right on. Am I right in my understanding that Methodists come from an Anglican background as opposed to a Puritan/Presbyterian one?



Indeed. Both Wesleys were ordained prebyters of the Church of England, and carried their sacramental functions within the context of that church. In fact, the XXV Articles above are but an adaption of the Church of England's XXXIX Articles enacted under the reign of Edward VI. Also, John Wesley never intended himself to leave the Church of England, even when necessity made him ordain Thomas Coke a bishop. His brother Charles, however, was bit more open to creating an independent church, even if he was furious when John ordained Coke, as his famous ditty testifies:“How easily are bishops made
By man or woman’s whim:
Wesley his hands on Coke hath laid,
But who laid hands on him?”
In the end, all the steps taken --the creation of hymnals and a liturgy, the ordination of bishops and presbyters, the appointment of lay preachers for bands-- resulted in the creation of the Methodist Church, as distinct from the Church of England.

what is meant by "risen presence" ?

Well, what are you wondering that it might say? ;)

[Strong in Him]

Wow, alot of what you posted is right on. Am I right in my understanding that methodists come from an Anglican background as opposed to a puritan/presbytarian one?

John Wesley was an anglican clergyman and did not want the Methodists to become a seperate denomination. I think it's correct to say that he refused to let them break away from the church of England while either he or Charles were still alive. I'm not quite sure what Puritans or presbyterians are (though doubtless I should know.)

[Plan 9]

That is a sad commentary on Methodism...and one of the many reasons that I believe that the UMC will not be able to maintain the "U" for many more years.

erm...the "U" in "UMC" is the result of the merger of the two Methodist denominations, the Evangelical United Brethren and the Methodist Episcopal Church. It is, as you must know, only polite to merge the names of denominations when merging the denominations themselves.
You would have to ask our former EUB members if they're planning to leave any time in the next few years in order to determine if that particular name change will take place, for as long as any remain we will continue to be the UMC.

Personally, I'm proud to be a member myself, however "sad" you may find WiredSpirit's comment to be. The church should be a more like a hospital, open to everone who wishes to come, rather than some exclusive country club, whose members must pass muster, IMO.

Clement, since you don't seem to be a member yourself, and none too knowledgeable of the UMC to boot, why post this dig in the first place? I thought this was supposed to be a congregational home for all Wesleyans to post together in harmony?

Mods, has this changed while I was gone?

[ClementofRome]

I am sorry you took that as a dig Plan9. I am a UMC member and have knowledge of the UMC. I am not wanting to start a debate here. I was simply saying that if all we have in common in the UMC is some notion of God, then that is truly sad and not at all what the Book of Discipline states. I should have been more specific.

My comment about the "U" simply meant that there is a rift in the UMC and it will be interesting to see how that plays itself out over the coming years.

No offense meant to anyone here.

[MoonlightParade]

haha *inside joke* the last 2 posts have been the highlight of mine, and a buddy of mine's day, Oh and Clement, i have some questions bout the next test in New Testament, when ever you get around to it..

Thanks Guys
Moonlight

[Plan 9]

I am sorry you took that as a dig Plan9. I am a UMC member and have knowledge of the UMC. I am not wanting to start a debate here. I was simply saying that if all we have in common in the UMC is some notion of God, then that is truly sad and not at all what the Book of Discipline states. I should have been more specific.

My comment about the "U" simply meant that there is a rift in the UMC and it will be interesting to see how that plays itself out over the coming years.

No offense meant to anyone here.

I think you were plenty specific the first time, and my objections to your post still remain.

[Plan 9]

haha *inside joke* the last 2 posts have been the highlight of mine, and a buddy of mine's day, Oh and Clement, i have some questions bout the next test in New Testament, when ever you get around to it..

Thanks Guys
Moonlight

I'm pleased that someone enjoyed my return and very short stay here.

[MoonlightParade]

haha, Thats not why I am laughing Plan 9, i promise you.

[Plan 9]

No, I don't think you understand. Why you and your friend enjoyed this exchange unimportant to me. What's important to me is that this be a real congregational home, and it's not now. I hope this post sufficiently clear, because I won't be back.

[MoonlightParade]

Ahhh dont be like that, i just wanted to hear what people would be able to say bout Methodism, and well you dont have to be so ..... impatient, so what if what someone says ruffles your feathers. If someone is in need, would you abandon them because of someone else comments? You are not doing very well in your own "Great Commision" while being on my thread, you very simply deny a member of his own denomanation, and that in my own opioion is not something that you should do, unless you are very sure , he was just giving his thoughts on the United Methodist Church and how he sees it branching off very soon over the Homosexual Bishiops. So Plan 9 while your absence will be noticed, please dont do what you have done here elsewhere, or some immature Christian might lose faith, because of small matters and drop the faith, for in his mind, it is weak....

[WesleyJohn]

.

[MoonlightParade]

The problem in this thread so far WJ, is some people said something, people comment, others get mad, thinking that the commenter is being rude, and the accuser says commenter is not even a Methodist, while Thread-starter laughs about the whole thing, Because He knows better....

[WiredSpirit]

Of course Methodists agree on every single little thing. Isn't it obvious now?

[ClementofRome]

Of course Methodists agree on every single little thing. Isn't it obvious now?

Certainly not every single little things....I was just arguing for some sort of essentials as established by the Book of Discipline.

[Onesimus85]

Basically we believe in someone or something called "God." Not necessarily a creator, but something worthy of that name. At least that's the only common denominator I can find among United Methodists.

Anywho, your best resource is http://www.umc.org.

JW, the problem that I have with WiredSpirit's post is they posted "the ONLY common denominator" which is not true. If that is the only denominator then we don't have anything that distinguishes us from other denominations, or from other religions that reject Christ. There are, as you know, many common features among the Methodist Church. I am not trying to start an argument here (please don't start arguing over it), but FUMC Of Germantown in Pennsylvania had a lesbian A. Pastor. While I disagree with this I will admit that they have more than just one thing in common with my home church or with most Methodists. Even if a Church is considered to the far left or far right they have more than one thing in common. If we only have one thing in common then we would not be united but independent. This is what CoR meant. If we agree "that's the only common denominator" then, as a Church, we will not be able to maintain a stable stance of being united.

JW, I appreciate your use of the Discipline. Besides the Holy Bible the Discipline is required to be a guide to the UM.

I am simply stating my opinion. According to the UM Discipline we should have more than just ONE thing in common among UM.

:D

[MoonlightParade]

Hey Onesimus, dont mean to be a buzz kill but that is WJ, not JW, haha Peace Brother

[Onesimus85]

Sorry WJ, I'm sure you knew who I was thinking you were.

[WesleyJohn]

.

[MoonlightParade]

:scratch:

You guys are really confusing me now!


:P


So (pardon the slight thread drift), do you both take classes from brother CoR?



WJ

Brother WJ, I do take audience with him, would not call it a class, but a place to be , while, it is a learning place, but to me, it is a place of relearning what i already know... Clement, haha, dont kill me.... That being said, He teaches things in a depth that i am not used to.

GOD Bless!!!
Moonlight

[Plan 9]

Ahhh dont be like that, i just wanted to hear what people would be able to say bout Methodism, and well you dont have to be so ..... impatient, so what if what someone says ruffles your feathers. If someone is in need, would you abandon them because of someone else comments? You are not doing very well in your own "Great Commision" while being on my thread, you very simply deny a member of his own denomanation, and that in my own opioion is not something that you should do, unless you are very sure , he was just giving his thoughts on the United Methodist Church and how he sees it branching off very soon over the Homosexual Bishiops. So Plan 9 while your absence will be noticed, please dont do what you have done here elsewhere, or some immature Christian might lose faith, because of small matters and drop the faith, for in his mind, it is weak....

Wow, judged and found wanting. Thank you so much for this and your other post referring to me as an "accuser" because someone couldn't be bothered to display a "Methodist" icon which is actually the symbol of the United Methodist church, so that no other Methodists ever use it, then goes on to display an apparent total ignorance of the our denom's most recent history.
Then, after you've have your big horse laugh at my expense because I can't tell him from every other non-UMCer here who has ridden their high horses at our expense for months, making almost exactly the same stateents, and then I'm the bad Christian who might willfully damage some other, weaker, Christian, and must be charged by you not to do so.

What if I'm the weaker the Christian, who came here burnt out and needing help to find that my congregational home is not the refuge that members of other denominations routinely enjoy here, then what have the effects of your posts been?

You needn't have thrown me any bones about how my absence will be missed while maintaining an otherwise entirely negative view of my supposed bad influence, because you weren't content to only abandon me in my hour of need; you had to laugh at me and then lecture me, too.

I don't want you to miss my absence; all I want you to now is leave me alone! Discussing my supposed personal faults has no relevance to Methodist theology that I can see.
I won't be back to read any reply you might make. I know better now, so your job humiliating me is done, and I wish you the joy of it.

[Plan 9]

On topic: I'm not a Methodist (I'm Nazarene), but I do believe that members of any tradition ought to be able to fully affirm the articles of faith / doctrines of their church. There's a difference between slight disagreements and throwing out the entire discipline to settle for the most basic of statements.

I imagine that every UMC Pastor would also perfer that their congregants be able to fully affirm their articles of faith.
Do you throw out any Nazerines who don't?

If there were Nazarenes who said that the only thing Nazarenes had in common was belief in God, I'd be very concerned about the future of the denomination. Are there really large numbers of Methodists who don't affirm the doctrines of the UMC?

How many Nazerines would have to express that opinion before you became seriously worried about the future of your denomination? One? Two?

I'm not worried, and we're in no danger that I can see of throwing out our Book of Discipline any time soon, and from all the reactions I've had the misfortune of ofserving at CF, this is going to be quite a disappointment to many when it doesn't occur.

btw, I don't think we're on-topic at all.

[Plan 9]

This is not a moderator post. Feel free to respond to it, critique it, report it, etc. :)

I guess I'm a bit confused by all that's transpired here.

No one has been told that they can or cannot post a particular perspective in this thread. WiredSpirit believes that all UMCs have in common is a belief in a someone or something called "God." He has the right to post such a thought.

I responded with a concrete statement from the official publications of the UMC, indicating that on an official level there was much more that UMC members should have in common than belief in someone or something called "God." I did make the statement that if one couldn't hold to those beliefs, they ought to reconsider whether or not they call themselves Methodists. That's my opinion...I don't see why someone would belong to an organization or church that they don't agree with. But it's just my opinion, and I was allowed to state it.

ClementofRome offered further commentary. He didn't try to silence another viewpoint, but offered his opinion, which was that he senses that the UMC may not long be a single united denomination. I don't believe he was trying to exclude anybody, but offer his opinion on the importance of being united behind the doctrinal statements of the church.

I'm sorry that this is upsetting to some people. I don't see why we wouldn't want to hear the opinions of what's essential to be called "Methodist." This was, basically, the question of the OP. Nobody has attempted to silence anyone else or claim that their point of view was invalid. Nobody attempted to restrict the usage of this forum beyond its current restrictions.

"Some people"? Would that be me, by any chance? ;)
If so, you're mistaken: Clement's post didn't upset me.
It was being subsequently being ridculed and then castigated after posting in response that bothered me. If that doesn't convey to you that my "point of view" is considered invalid, and my Christian walk has been called into question, I wonder what possibly could, but I guess that's just me.

I guess I'm not seeing the problem here. Perhaps I'm just dense! :)

I don't know why you can't see that there's a problem, especially since you already knew I was in trouble and were apparently assigned to help me, and told me you would as you got back.
Nevertheless, the fact that you can't does conclusively show that I don't belong here, and that everyone will actually benefit from my absence at least as much as I expect to, if not more. I guess that's help of a sort.

Maybe we'd be better served to have a discussion in another thread about whether or not the UMC is on course for a rift, and why.

I thought we were supposed to avoid the topic of Homosexuality here at CF, but if I have that wrong, by all means, put it in a separate thread, so that only some of our members will be free to express their opinions without encountering you in your official capacity, and will know to stay far away from it.
If that had happened here, I would have known there would have been humiliation galore available on this thread, as always at CF, I would never even have read it, and I wouldn't be leaving WP for good.

The only real rift I've seen going among UMCers is here at CF, because some have avoided this forum like the plague from the beginning, something, in retrospect, I feel I should have known to do myself.
I'm really never coming back, but my parting advice is that you'd be better served not to introduce any topic in which only some members can participate without being censored by our mods, as well as worked over by our fellow members.

[herev]

haha *inside joke* the last 2 posts have been the highlight of mine, and a buddy of mine's day, Oh and Clement, i have some questions bout the next test in New Testament, when ever you get around to it..

Thanks Guys
Moonlight
as my wife is signed up to take that class when Clement teaches it in June, let us in on it;)

[ClementofRome]

as my wife is signed up to take that class when Clement teaches it in June, let us in on it;)

Different class! She will be thankful! :) Just kidding Moon and Onesimus.

[herev]

erm...the "U" in "UMC" is the result of the merger of the two Methodist denominations, the Evangelical United Brethren and the Methodist Episcopal Church. It is, as you must know, only polite to merge the names of denominations when merging the denominations themselves.
You would have to ask our former EUB members if they're planning to leave any time in the next few years in order to determine if that particular name change will take place, for as long as any remain we will continue to be the UMC.

Personally, I'm proud to be a member myself, however "sad" you may find WiredSpirit's comment to be. The church should be a more like a hospital, open to everone who wishes to come, rather than some exclusive country club, whose members must pass muster, IMO.

Clement, since you don't seem to be a member yourself, and none too knowledgeable of the UMC to boot, why post this dig in the first place? I thought this was supposed to be a congregational home for all Wesleyans to post together in harmony?

Mods, has this changed while I was gone?
Hello, Plan 9
you and I have a good history going back a while.
Let me take a moment to assure you that clementofrome is a good United Methodist in good standing and has deep, deep, deep family roots in the church, both as laypersons and clergy. He is not only well educated in the United Methodist Church, he is actually a scholar and a teacher at a United Methodist institution. He is not an outsider coming in trying to cause trouble.
I read his comment to say that he was concerned about the future of the church. I fear you may have just misread him. You're a good woman, so I know you meant no harm, but I wanted you to know he's a good guy.

[MoonlightParade]

Yes, Plan 9 That is what i was trying to say, but i guess that was taken the wrong way too. I am with some buds, going to start debating over the UMC spilt, and if it comes to anything, i will post all that was said, and if anyone has any comments, they may add, so... well see...
Moonlight

[MoonlightParade]

And by the way, Onesimus, i love that Halo Covenant Sword... Very, i dont play halo, but once in a while.... NICE!!!!!