Black Popes

[fdrennen]

I was disturbed yesterday as I listened to a local newscast, the commentator annouced that favorite among the potential Papal candidates was Cardinal Arinze The Nigerian Cardinal, and that his election would make him the first Black Pope. That although there were three popes from the African continent that he would be the first Black Pope. There is too much ignorance about Church History, and too many experts spouting Fallacies about Black History and i am afraid that people accept these as truths. To this end I published a web page devoted to the history of African Popes. Please see
http://our.homewithgod.com/fdrennen/African_Popes.htm :priest:

[graysparrow]

Which northern african region was that?

I'm Armazhig (berber) btw and I am not black...

[Andy Broadley]

I don't claim any great knowledge of this subject, but I heard on the BBC that if this chap is made Pope he would be the first black Pope for 1500 years.

[fdrennen]

The point that I'm trying to make is that the news media is trying to portray Christianity as a European Religion. and I am sure that you would agree that the christian church had it's beginings in Africa (e.g. Ethiopia) NOT Europe.

[WeLikeSheep]

Cool web page! God may not see color, but people sure do. :sigh: There's a reason it's called the "White House"... :(

[Andy Broadley]

The point that I'm trying to make is that the news media is trying to portray Christianity as a European Religion. and I am sure that you would agree that the christian church had it's beginings in Africa (e.g. Ethiopia) NOT Europe.

Thought it was Isreal myself....

[fdrennen]

Thought it was Isreal myself....

In the beginning the "church" in Isreal was a sect of Judiasm that followed a radical Rabbi. The first organised Church was in Ethiopia ca. 34AD

[fdrennen]

I don't claim any great knowledge of this subject, but I heard on the BBC that if this chap is made Pope he would be the first black Pope for 1500 years.

God Bless the BBC, I heard my report on ABC News.

[Andy Broadley]

In the beginning the "church" in Isreal was a sect of Judiasm that followed a radical Rabbi. The first organised Church was in Ethiopia ca. 34AD

Never heard Jesus called radical Rabbi before.....

[Brian Augustyn]

There are Anglican Archbishops from Africa who I think might love to be elevated to Anglican Pope, an office, of course, that we don't have.

Of course, if Archbishop Desmond Tutu were interested in taking the gig, I might be cool with that. But only him!

;)
Brian

[fdrennen]

Never heard Jesus called radical Rabbi before.....

That's why they crucified him!

[Andy Broadley]

That's why they crucified him!

They crucified Him because it had been agreed between Father and Son that it should be so, so that mankind could have a way of achieving salvation.

I fail to see how the Church as founded by Christ, and built upon Peter, in Jerusalem in the months immediately after the Resurection, can be recognised as anything other than the origional and first Christian Church. Jerusalem was the place where the Apostles where told to stay and await the Holy Spirit, and where they indeed received the Spirit. It was the place where the Lame man was healed at the temple gates, where Peter and John were arrested, Stephen was stoned, and Saul had his first contact with the Christian Church.

Was it not also in Jerusalem that the seven deacons were chosen, and the majorityof the Christian Church was based.

However, we are agreed that the Christian Church is indeed African in origin, not European, but there can be no doubt that it was first established in Isreal and centered around Jerusalem.

[Fish and Bread]

Never heard Jesus called radical Rabbi before.....

That's why they crucified him!

They crucified Him because it had been agreed between Father and Son that it should be so, so that mankind could have a way of achieving salvation.

Why can't both be true? I think we limit God when we imagine that Christ's death could only have had one single meaning or purpose. I think it was all of the above and also much more.

John

[PaladinValer]

Not all Northern Africans are actually of the "black race" however; you are equivocating being black and being from Africa: they are not the same historically.

While there have been African popes in the past (in both the Vatican Catholic usage of the word and in the more ancient usage), I am not sure of one actually being of the "black race."

[AveMaria]

And here I thought this thread was going to be about the Jesuits! ^_^

[gtsecc]

Pope Huggy Bear ?
http://www.azstarnet.com/ss/2004/03/10/13138-1.jpg

Lift up your hearts!

[Colabomb]

They crucified Him because it had been agreed between Father and Son that it should be so, so that mankind could have a way of achieving salvation.

I fail to see how the Church as founded by Christ, and built upon Peter, in Jerusalem in the months immediately after the Resurection, can be recognised as anything other than the origional and first Christian Church. Jerusalem was the place where the Apostles where told to stay and await the Holy Spirit, and where they indeed received the Spirit. It was the place where the Lame man was healed at the temple gates, where Peter and John were arrested, Stephen was stoned, and Saul had his first contact with the Christian Church.

Was it not also in Jerusalem that the seven deacons were chosen, and the majorityof the Christian Church was based.

However, we are agreed that the Christian Church is indeed African in origin, not European, but there can be no doubt that it was first established in Isreal and centered around Jerusalem.
Actually, isn't Jerusalem in Israel which is considered part of the Middle East? Is the Middle East considered part of Africa?

[fdrennen]

Not all Northern Africans are actually of the "black race" however; you are equivocating being black and being from Africa: they are not the same historically.

Here in America with our horrorable history of racial relations one is classified as "white" or "non-white" I have said that to point out that if one's heritage is from Africa by that definition He/She is non-White. Agreed that could be not "Black" but in northern Africa peoples complection and caracteristics vary a great deal.
The point is that Christianity developed in Africa Ethiopia and Egypt to be more specific much earlier than it did in Europe.

While there have been African popes in the past (in both the Vatican Catholic usage of the word and in the more ancient usage), I am not sure of one actually being of the "black race."
There are no reliable representations Icons or portraits of these early popes but I believe that they have every probability of being of the "black race".

[PaladinValer]

Here in America with our horrorable history of racial relations one is classified as "white" or "non-white" I have said that to point out that if one's heritage is from Africa by that definition He/She is non-White. Agreed that could be not "Black" but in northern Africa peoples complection and caracteristics vary a great deal.

Actually, they are genetically members of the caucasian "race." In fact, North Africa is predominately members of not the negroid (NOTE: This is I believe the actual term. I am NOT using it in any other way, just to be perfectly clear) "race" but that of the caucasian.

The point is that Christianity developed in Africa Ethiopia and Egypt to be more specific much earlier than it did in Europe.

Very true.

There are no reliable representations Icons or portraits of these early popes but I believe that they have every probability of being of the "black race".

It is possible but very improbable.

[julian the apostate]

In fact, North Africa is predominately members of not the negroid (NOTE: This is I believe the actual term. I am NOT using it in any other way, just to be perfectly clear) "race" but that of the caucasian.

that is the case now, but (and i may be wrong) i dont think that was the case around the time of the punic wars or the formation of christianity
i think mostly it was caused by arab migration to the region

even the moors who were running the mediteranean region were by and large black
and that wasnt all that long ago

[PaladinValer]

The moors were not black.

[Brian Augustyn]

The moors were not black.

In that Moors were what the Spanish called the Muslims, and that those Muslims were chiefly of Arabic and Berber stock, there is some truth to your assertion. But, since their rule was spread through invasion, assimilation and conversion, I don't think we can say that none of the Moors were black Africans racially. There almost certainly must have been some people in that number who were, maybe many. Also, we begin to stress too much the strictest definition of whom is really a black African, and why chase that distinction anyway?

It probably doesn't really matter, I just have an aversion to sweeping generalizations.

Also, whether or not some historic pope was or was not black seems hard to prove, but an interesting mental exercise. Since we have no evidence one way or another at this point, why don't we just leave it at "it's possible, but we don't really know..."? Working with any effort at all to dispute or dismiss the OP seems at best ungracious. I know none of us are racist, but we run the risk of offending if we appear too uncomfortable with the concept or too eager to prove it wrong.

And, of course, what difference does it make to us, Anglican/Episcopalians, anyway?

Brian

[julian the apostate]

brian<<none of the Moors were black Africans racially

see othello

the moors were both black and muslim

see muhammad ali

[julian the apostate]

in fact they were even in scotland:
from the nationalarchives.gov.uk page

Africans have been present in Europe from classical times. In the 2nd and 3rd centuries Roman soldiers of African origin served in Britain, and some stayed after their military service ended. (see Black Romans (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/blackhistory/early_times/romans.htm)) According to the historians Fryer, Edwards and Walvin, in the 9th century Viking fleets raided North Africa and Spain, captured Black people, and took them to Britain and Ireland. From the end of the 15th century we begin to see more evidence for the presence of http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/blackhistory/graphics/glossary.gifBlack Moors (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/blackhistory/glossary.htm#moor) in the accounts of the reign of King James IV of Scotland, and later in Elizabethan England (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/blackhistory/early_times/elizabeth.htm).

[graysparrow]

1.- The African Churches are between the oldest of Christianity. See Augustine, just to quote one :)
2.- For a Spaniard, (believe me I'm one) moors are never black but the milky :) scots might have thought differently.
3.- The Ethiopian Church is very old, but so are the Armenian, Georgian, Iraqi...
4.- Between Senegal and Mauretania there are sometimes ethnic conflict between 'white' and 'black' groups... but hang me if I can tell one from the other. Just for the funny note :)

[fdrennen]

I think that much of what has been said here is true. I think that race was not as important an issue in acient times; that is one of the reasons we do not know for sure the racial identity of these early popes. Our current preoccupation with race is a product of the propaganda surroounding the introduction of the African slave trade.

Africans have been present in Europe from classical times. In the 2nd and 3rd centuries Roman soldiers of African origin served in Britain, and some stayed after their military service ended.
St Maurice http://www.stmaryofegypt.net/saints_maurice.shtml
Between Senegal and Mauretania there are sometimes ethnic conflict between 'white' and 'black' groups... but hang me if I can tell one from the other. Just for the funny note[/font]
As a matter of fact many poeple in eastern Africa who look like Black Africans call themself "Persians" not Black.
[Qoute=Brian] what difference does it make to us, Anglican/Episcopalians, anyway?[/Quote] It wouldn't matter if we(Western Christians) had a realistic view of Church history.

[PaladinValer]

I agree that race has become too big an issue in the modern day and age.

It is another reason why I am Anglican; no one cares about your genetic structure :D

[WeLikeSheep]

Our current preoccupation with race is a product of the propaganda surroounding the introduction of the African slave trade.

It has deeper roots than that here in the US: as soon as Europeans hit the soil of the Americas. And it's been downhill ever since.

[fdrennen]

It is another reason why I am Anglican; no one cares about your genetic structure :D

I am in one of the most liberal of dioceses and believe me race, class and sexuality are still BIG issues.

[RobNJ]

I am in one of the most liberal of dioceses and believe me race, class and sexuality are still BIG issues.

Tell me about it!! :eek:

(greetings from Westwood)

[PaladinValer]

What do you mean?

[julian the apostate]

I am in one of the most liberal of dioceses and believe me race, class and sexuality are still BIG issues.

and the more our leaders ignore them the worse they get

thank goodness i can turn on fox news (we distort , you deride)
and just forget about it

[Simon_Templar]

talking about the population of north africa in classical period. Not that i think race matters, but I'm kind of a geek about history.

the north african coast as early as 700-600 BC was being colonized by greeks, and their competition, the phonecians. Egypt had one major city of populated primarily by greek mercenaries, and from the 300's on was ruled by a greek dynasty. This had little effect on the population racially of course, but after the alexandrian hellenization of the middle east, alexandria became an international city with many people from other parts of the middle east and from europe settling there because it was a center of learnig and culture. Carthage of course and the entire surrounding region were settled by the phonecians.

Then, during the punic wars, Rome conquered carthage and settled the region themselves. Noteably after the Marian reforms in rome, Marius settled an entire roman army in north africa. Also, during the late republic and early empire, many romans migrated to the north african coast because the areas around carthage were relatively good farmland and eventually became one of the important food producing regions of the empire. So by the time of the beginning of the church the west north african coast was heavily populated by europeans. This continued as the empire colapsed because the wealth of the region drew down the vandals who settled pretty much their entire tribe in north africa, and also eventually the visigoths.

as to the first church, it seems kind of an issue of semantics to say that it wasn't jerusalem because the church in israel was regarded as a jewish sect. For the first years of its history, the church everywhere was regarded as a jewish sect by outsiders.
Jerusalem was home to the first outpouring of the Spirit, the first ordinations, the first council etc.

The, very interesting, fact is that churches sprang up all across the mediteranian and even up to britain, in many cases before 'official' missionaries and church leaders ever came to the areas, or were even aware that there was a church present.

Although, if the Ethiopian church started in 34 AD, it would deffinetly seem to be the first church outside of Jerusalem.

[fdrennen]

Thank you for your comments I have some questions.

the north african coast as early as 700-600 BC was being colonized by greeks, and their competition, the phonecians. Egypt had one major city of populated primarily by greek mercenaries, and from the 300's on was ruled by a greek dynasty. This had little effect on the population racially of course, but after the alexandrian hellenization of the middle east, alexandria became an international city with many people from other parts of the middle east and from europe settling there because it was a center of learnig and culture. Carthage of course and the entire surrounding region were settled by the phonecians.

Then, during the punic wars, Rome conquered carthage and settled the region themselves. Noteably after the Marian reforms in rome, Marius settled an entire roman army in north africa. Also, during the late republic and early empire, many romans migrated to the north african coast because the areas around carthage were relatively good farmland and eventually became one of the important food producing regions of the empire. So by the time of the beginning of the church the west north african coast was heavily populated by europeans. This continued as the empire colapsed because the wealth of the region drew down the vandals who settled pretty much their entire tribe in north africa, and also eventually the visigoths.

Who were Natives of this region prior to colonization?

What happened to this native population?

as to the first church, it seems kind of an issue of semantics to say that it wasn't jerusalem because the church in israel was regarded as a jewish sect. For the first years of its history, the church everywhere was regarded as a jewish sect by outsiders.
Jerusalem was home to the first outpouring of the Spirit, the first ordinations, the first council etc.

The, very interesting, fact is that churches sprang up all across the mediteranian and even up to britain, in many cases before 'official' missionaries and church leaders ever came to the areas, or were even aware that there was a church present.

Although, if the Ethiopian church started in 34 AD, it would deffinetly seem to be the first church outside of Jerusalem.

Granted perhaps God in his wisdom allowed the Church to develop simultaniously in various regions. However I believe that many of the practices that caracterize Christianity began in North Africa, e.g. monastism.

[Simon_Templar]

fdrennen,

greetings :)


The native population of the region were the berbers. The original berber tribes were dark brown in skin tone. They are the ancestors of pretty much all the native north african tribes except for the egyptians, but then egypt really had quite a mix, including berbers, arabs, ehtiopians (and during the hyksos period and influx of 'asiatic' influence) etc.

When the Phonecians settled the area around carthage, (modern tunisia) the native population for the most part assimilated into their culture. The berbers were originaly nomadic and in other regeions retained that lifestyle. In Carthage and its zone of control the populations became more settled and urban. This mixing continued through the rest of the successive waves of conquest. (muslim and then french being the last)
the berbers of course have remained in the region through out history, down to today. The intermixing of arabs, and europeans with the original berbers, over the last 3000 (approx) years is what has resulted in the modern berbers being more light brown in skin tone, instead of the original dark brown.

I'm not (yet ;) ) an expert in the early early church, before Ignatius and Polycarp, I basicly only know what the bible says, backed up with a little general history. I do know that Ethiopia had a long history of involvement with Israel going back to the days of solomon and that there was a long established jewish community in Ethiopia. Thus I don't find it hard to believe that the first church outside of Israel was established there. According to tradition was this church founded by the ethiopian eunuch who was taught by philip (is philip the right guy?) ?

I also know that north africa had a couple of places that were intellectual centers of the ancient world. So I woldn't find it surprising that the intellectual life of christianity would have been nurtured there.

It is certainly true that many of the great leaders and thinkers of the early church came from north africa. If you include the middle east up to asia minor you would have the vast majority of all the early church writers. Either way, it was not primarily a european institution.

[fdrennen]

fdrennen,
According to tradition was this church founded by the ethiopian eunuch who was taught by philip (is philip the right guy?) ?

You are corect. "And as many remember, Philip was called by divine intervention to meet the Ethiopian eunuch, who himself was a man of great statuture: he was the finance minister under Queen Candace of Ethiopia."
Taken from "Overview of Ancient Christianity in Africa" by Fr. Antonious Conner, The Unbroken Circle
http://www.stmaryofegypt.net/africa.shtml

check out this site. there are a few articles by Dr. Albert Raboteau, Princeton University Professor of Religion that you might find interesting.:yum: