False Prophets...

[gitlance]

Hey guys.... what do you think of Rodney Howard-Browne? He came to school today.... and I just wanna say.... not to judge, but I have never seen so much emotional manipulation and just flat-out heresy. It's really very sad what some people will believe... and it's even sadder what some people will go around doing "in God's name".

[pmcleanj]

Could you describe what it is you saw and heard, and what made you think of it as manipulative or heretical?

I don't know the man, or anything about him. But I think discussing the issues could be an interesting exercise.

[gitlance]

Well, he is the "founder" and forerunner of the "Holy Laughter" movement which became so popular at the "Toronto Blessing." Following that, his meetings have also experienced "Holy Barking," "Holy Growling," and the worst... "Holy Vomiting". He came to the school today and decided he was gonna try some of that. Needless to say, I got up and left before it took off.

He first started in Pensacola and at the Brownsville Revival.

[ethereal hope]

... the laughing guy?

...

EEK!

:crossrc:

[AveMaria]

Holy Vomiting? :sick:

I don't know much about this guy or Toronto Blessing - that's the airport ministry with the barking and laughing, right?

Back soon as I've had a chance to learn more with Google.

[Albion]

Hey guys.... what do you think of Rodney Howard-Browne? He came to school today.... and I just wanna say.... not to judge, but I have never seen so much emotional manipulation and just flat-out heresy. It's really very sad what some people will believe... and it's even sadder what some people will go around doing "in God's name".

What you say is in line with what a lot of other people have said about the man and his ministry. I wonder how the other students at your school reacted to him? Any reservations, or was he just seen as wonderful?

[CSMR]

This is madness

[gitlance]

I actually had to get up and leave. I saw the way some of the students were acting. He gave an "altar call" for them, and quite a few went down to be prayed over, or whatever. Last I heard, after I left, they were all over the ground laughing or something like that. Sheer craziness apparently. I caught a little bit of it over the school's closed-circuit television... needless to say I couldn't take more than about 5 minutes of it. I think it's really scary... even seems borderline demonic in some ways. I'm having a hard time knowing how to feel and react to it.

[UberLutheran]

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Though "holy laughter" (and for sure, holy vomiting) isn't my cup of tea...

[PaladinValer]

Another expression of Montanism rears its ugly head. :sick:

[Aymn27]

Well, he is the "founder" and forerunner of the "Holy Laughter" movement which became so popular at the "Toronto Blessing." Following that, his meetings have also experienced "Holy Barking," "Holy Growling," and the worst... "Holy Vomiting". He came to the school today and decided he was gonna try some of that. Needless to say, I got up and left before it took off.

He first started in Pensacola and at the Brownsville Revival.
I've been at a huge conference where people were speaking in tongues, resting in the Spirit, crying and yes...there was laughing (never ever heard of vomiting or barking though....) and it was a large Roman Catholic youth conference (Steubenville South). The laughing actually didn't seem that strange, and they weren't out of control or anything - it actually sounded like the joy of a small child playing.

I've learned through the charismatic movement that all movements of the Spirit should be "orderly" and result in a peaceful resting in God's presence. If people are disruptiing the prayer meeting/mass, etc...then they should be removed as it is not from the Holy Spirit.

[trooper]

what, by the way, is Montanism?

[gtsecc]

Catholic Encyclopedia:
Montanists (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10521a.htm)

[PaladinValer]

Montanism isn't necessarily Pentecostalism or the charismatic renewal denominations, gtsecc.

[pmcleanj]

Another expression of Montanism rears its ugly head. :sick:
If you can find the time, could you write us a brief essay on what montanism *is*, and how it relates to Holy Barking?

In among all your other university work, of course :)

[ahab]

Hang on!

IMO barking and vomitting are definately not of the Holy Spirit, nor is laughing necessarily to be expected, however, gitlance, can I ask you did you actually see and hear any barking or vommitting? If you see demonic is your reaction always to leave? have you never seen people react such as in vommitting when being delivered from demonic spirits?
With respect, can I ask you the same as you asked on the other thread, does Rodney Howard-Browne actually promote holy vommitting, that some of you are saying he does. If you are so convinced that he said what you want to believe he said, how about you quit complaining about it and go ask the man yourself? Until you hear it straight from him, discussions and abuses of his character are simply inappropriate gossip and very un-Christian."

So did you see and hear these things and did you ask him?


Incidentally as to Holy vommitting I see no scriptural justifciation for it but just simply to say that it goes against tradition and the teaching of the Church and Scripture does not necessarily make it wrong.

[CSMR]

Well it is rather blasphemous to call Holy what is in fact just notably disordered human behaviour.

[TomUK]

And all this time i thought my two cocker spaniels were barking because they were hungry. Does that mean they're now born again? :doh:

[ahab]

But TomUK as you said on your other post

instead look at the larger issue of leading figures preaching material which goes against scripture and tradition (and reason?).


Should we not look at those leading figures who actually say that" just simply to say that it goes against tradition and the teaching of the Church and Scripture does not necessarily make it wrong."

[gitlance]

Hang on!

IMO barking and vomitting are definately not of the Holy Spirit, nor is laughing necessarily to be expected, however, gitlance, can I ask you did you actually see and hear any barking or vommitting? If you see demonic is your reaction always to leave? have you never seen people react such as in vommitting when being delivered from demonic spirits?
With respect, can I ask you the same as you asked on the other thread, does Rodney Howard-Browne actually promote holy vommitting, that some of you are saying he does. If you are so convinced that he said what you want to believe he said, how about you quit complaining about it and go ask the man yourself? Until you hear it straight from him, discussions and abuses of his character are simply inappropriate gossip and very un-Christian."

So did you see and hear these things and did you ask him?


Incidentally as to Holy vommitting I see no scriptural justifciation for it but just simply to say that it goes against tradition and the teaching of the Church and Scripture does not necessarily make it wrong.

Well, I have not seen the vomiting myself, though I have observed the laughter and, to a certain extent, the "barking". I know that the vomiting has occurred at several of Browne's meetings in the past, though I could not tell you whether or not he condones it. To my knowledge, however, he did not stop it... so, one could see a lack of action on his part as being a sign of acceptance.

But, I could be wrong.

And just so you know, I have nothing against the man personally. It's his theology and some of the things he allows to happen in his meetings that disturb me. Also, concerning the laughing at least, I have heard straight from him that he approves it.

[ahab]

Hi gitlance,:wave:


Thanks for the answer, I dont mean to sound aggressive but arent you being a little harsh? I have to point out to you that that you said in your second post you said
Following that, his meetings have also experienced "Holy Barking," "Holy Growling," and the worst... "Holy Vomiting". He came to the school today and decided he was gonna try some of that. Needless to say, I got up and left before it took off.

So how do you know that he was going to try some of that if it didn’t include barking and vomiting? How did you know he was going to start some of that if you don’t know whether he approves of it or not, he may say the barking and vomiting is the demon response. When you to say you have observed the barking to a certain extent what do you mean by a certain extent?

You said last you heard, after you had left, they were all over the ground laughing or something like that. So something like laughing but not barking or vomiting?

As I said you seem a bit harsh on his theology without knowing what exactly his theology is first hand. I tend to agree with you that to expect the Holy Spirit to make people to bark or vomit or even necessarily laugh, IMO tested against scripture seems false. But what does Rodney Howard-Brown say about it eaxclty. I mean we do have leaders who say that just simply because something is against Scripture does not necessarily make it wrong.

:)

[Iron Sun 254]

Note, this is not to be confused with the Monotonists who are just really, really boring.

[Brian Augustyn]

Note, this is not to be confused with the Monotonists who are just really, really boring.

Or with Montanaists, whose practice focuses only on revering San Francisco 49er's former quarterback, Joe Montana.

Which, in turn, should not be confused with Mantegnaists, who faithfully follow the film and television career of the Chicago-born actor, Joe Mantegna.

Brian

[RobNJ]

Or with Montanaists, whose practice focuses only on revering San Francisco 49er's former quarterback, Joe Montana.

Which, in turn, should not be confused with Mantegnaists, who faithfully follow the film and television career of the Chicago-born actor, Joe Mantegna.

Brian

Which reminds me of the quote:
"I'm, a Marxist, in the Groucho sense"

[PaladinValer]

Here's a pretty good resource on Montanism: http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/montanis.htm

Basically, they stress:

1. The dissestablishment of the Church as God's Kingdom on Earth. They do not recognize the Holy Spirit's involvement in the Church; only to the individual (Which can only invite even more heresy, as historically attested).
2. Extremist forms of piety: If you sin after baptism, you are doomed. In some montanistic forms, it is simply that, once forgiven, always forgiven, no matter how many more times you need, and that confession, repentence, and penance of those sins is unnecessary (First one is just impossible to follow, the second is just rediculous).
3. Emphasis on prophecy to the point of excess and/or imitation of those Pagan prophets. Historically, they would literally break out in absolute fits of hilarity, anger, or other extreme forms of emotion [emotionalism is stressed in Montanism above all else; it making sense to what is actually orthodox doesn't matter], claiming that the Holy Spirit was moving them (This is just plain nuts).
4. Chiliasm, aka "millennialism" (due to all of their false prophecies).
5. Some also denied the Blessed Trinity (due to "personal revelation," of course...).

[AveMaria]

Can we hop back a few steps?

I'm curious about the context in which this happened.

gitlance, you said this guy came to your school? Was this a school sanctioned event, then, or what? Was attendence required? How did everyone else react?

[ahab]

Hi gitlance,

Can I ask to to clarify this please. Having suggested others ask people they are criticisng in person, your accustation particularly of holy vomitting still seems to have no evidence or factual basis except 2nd hand hearsay, which if I may say is kind of crucial to go with an accusation of false teaching. Its not false teaching if he isnt actually proposing and teaching this.
If he is teaching this then on what grounds is it false? I would say becuase its because we can reason that its not the Holy Spirit in line with scripture or tradition, would you agree?
:wave:

[Simon_Templar]

a couple of comments on montanism in addition to Paladin's

the hallmark of montanism was extremely emotional displays while under the influence of the Holy Spirit. It was believed in their practice that the Holy Spirit actually posessed the prophet and spoke through him or her like a demon would. Thus when delivering prophecy they montanist would shake and perform other wild manifestations. It was also noted with great alarm that the montanist prophets spoke as though they were God, rather than delivering a message from God.. IE instead of saying "thus saith the Lord" they would simply say "I have told you...."
the result was that the montanists held that if anyone questioned their prophecies they were not questioning the prophet but God himself.

on Rodney Howard Browne.. I grew up in the charismatic movement, and he is pretty much the wildest and looney of the bunch. He used to call himself the Holy Ghost bar tender and he would stand on stage and pretend his fingers were six shooters, he would "draw" them and start shooting people with the Holy Spirit, they would then fall down, and manifest holy laughter, or barking, or what have you.

Rodney Howard Brown, to give you some idea, was so bad that Benny Hinn, after doing a show with him, refused to ever work with him again.