Bar owner on stage every sunday?

[walkingfeet]

I need to know is this right? Every sunday there is a bar owner on the praise and worship team, is this right or do you think there is compromise going on for the mans money? It kinda bothers me because now I dont know what to think I stopped drinking when I got saved and by seeing this man up there it's like saying it's ok. Is this any differnt than selling crack or herion ?would they let a crack dealer on the praise and worship team? anybody have any input on the subject?

[12volt_man]

I need to know is this right? Every sunday there is a bar owner on the praise and worship team, is this right or do you think there is compromise going on for the mans money? It kinda bothers me because now I dont know what to think I stopped drinking when I got saved and by seeing this man up there it's like saying it's ok. Is this any differnt than selling crack or herion ?would they let a crack dealer on the praise and worship team? anybody have any input on the subject?

Yes, actually, it's quite a bit different.

For one, crack and herion are illegal, which makes their use sin.

Second, the only purpose of crack and herion are to get high, which makes their use sin.

The Bible doesn't comdemn the use of alcohol and the bar owner is acting in good faith that people are going to drink responsibly.

I know I'm in the minority, but I don't see a problem, as long as the man isn't involved in some kind of sin.

[walkingfeet]

Yes, actually, it's quite a bit different.

For one, crack and herion are illegal, which makes their use sin.

Second, the only purpose of crack and herion are to get high, which makes their use sin.

The Bible doesn't comdemn the use of alcohol and the bar owner is acting in good faith that people are going to drink responsibly.

I know I'm in the minority, but I don't see a problem, as long as the man isn't involved in some kind of sin.

In nevada prostitusion is legal . If I owned a brothal in nevada
it would be legal. Now would that make it right or would it be sin?

In america abortion is legal is it ok for me to be an abortion doctor ?

Porn is legal too, does that make it ok to produce porno's?

[TwinCrier]

Walkingfeet, this is what is called 'conviction.' You feel in your heart and soul that this is a sin, which it is. All I can say is maybe reconsider attending a church where no one else feels any conviction about someone making profit off the drunkeness of others as sin. Many churches go the route of not condemning sin in order to keep the attendance up and have even allowed those who openly practice (and are even proud of) sexual perversion to govern the church. It is not judging to recognise a sin or even to point out the sins of another as long as we are judging in truth. Listen to that still small voice that is screaming that this is wrong.

[WeLikeSheep]

Thankfully, I don't have to be perfect to sing in the choir or be a deacon at my church.

Have you considered talking to him personally? Find out what his thoughts are about his profession. Rather than leaving a church over someone else's "sin", why not address it with the person as we're instructed to do in Matthew 18 (by none other than Jesus himself)? If we all left our churches because we thought someone else's sin was bigger than our own, no one would be left in church.

Julie,
a sheep who in not without sin, try as she does

[walkingfeet]

Thankfully, I don't have to be perfect to sing in the choir or be a deacon at my church.

Have you considered talking to him personally? Find out what his thoughts are about his profession. Rather than leaving a church over someone else's "sin", why not address it with the person as we're instructed to do in Matthew 18 (by none other than Jesus himself)? If we all left our churches because we thought someone else's sin was bigger than our own, no one would be left in church.

Julie,
a sheep who in not without sin, try as she does

I'm not talking about leaving the church, and i'm not going around trying to sow discord in the church and I'm not even trying to get this man off stage, that's why I'm asking questions on here,I'm not trying to judge him either, I just need some answers for me, is there anything wrong with asking questions to get wisdom ?

[12volt_man]

In nevada prostitusion is legal . If I owned a brothal in nevada
it would be legal. Now would that make it right or would it be sin?

In america abortion is legal is it ok for me to be an abortion doctor ?

Porn is legal too, does that make it ok to produce porno's?

The difference, of course, is that these things are condemned by scripture. Serving alcohol in good faith that those who drink, will drink responsibly, is not.

[TwinCrier]

The difference, of course, is that these things are condemned by scripture. Serving alcohol in good faith that those who drink, will drink responsibly, is not.I doubt most "responsible drinkers" hang out at bars.
If you feel the need to speak to the man directly go ahead... just be prepared to hear drinking defended as it is done here in this thread.

[12volt_man]

I doubt most "responsible drinkers" hang out at bars.

As a musician and a former bartender, I can tell you from experience that the vast, vast number of people who go to your average pub do drink responsibly.

I can only ever recall witnessing two events in all of the bars I've ever played in where alcohol led somebody to bad behavior.

As a bartender, I don't recall ever having more than two or three incidents per week, out of a couple hundred people a night, caused by alcohol.

The truth is, you're probably less likely to see excesive drinking at a bar because of legal and liability issues. The law and our litigious society being what it is, most bars police themselves and their patrons very strictly.

If you feel the need to speak to the man directly go ahead

Not really. I was just responding to a premise somebody put up on a message board. I don't really have any desire to make it a personal thing.

just be prepared to hear drinking defended as it is done here in this thread.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I'm one of those who would defend drinking in moderation.

[twistedsketch]

What I do with tough situations like that is I take them to the Lord and ask that His will be done. This way, if God shares my opinion that it is sinful, He can speak to the man's heart and convict him in ways I never could. After all, think about where he is, in a church band. I'll bet he gets that all the time and has hardened his heart against the judgements of other men. After all, I do that with legalists and liberals all the time. I don't care what they think, why should he care what you think? But God alone can make him listen to His true will, and if owning a bar is as sinful as some people believe, wouldn't God have the biggest problem with it? It's not my problem if someone else sins, unless it's against me or someone I love. It's God's, so I pray for Him to interfere in their lives. After all, if it's serious enough to send someone to hell, it's serious enough to merit conviction and circumstances that only God has the power and the right to bring. Besides, why talk to the man if you haven't been praying for him?

[jangnim]

2 cents from an old kraut. I have never been to Germany, but have been told that they view drinking coffee as a sin. I can see them looking at this thread wondering what the big deal is. I mean he hasn't sold his soul to Starbucks right?


This is honestly an area of personal conviction. I am sincerely thankful to our Lord that His Spirit can and will teach us personally what is wrong with ourselves.

I would agree with 12volt_man here. If it is'nt your sin, love the guy through it. If you condemn him he will simply be given an excuse to not love, and love is the central theme of the faith.

[jlujan69]

I need to know is this right? Every sunday there is a bar owner on the praise and worship team, is this right or do you think there is compromise going on for the mans money? It kinda bothers me because now I dont know what to think I stopped drinking when I got saved and by seeing this man up there it's like saying it's ok. Is this any differnt than selling crack or herion ?would they let a crack dealer on the praise and worship team? anybody have any input on the subject?

Whether or not there's compromising going on for his money is not always easy to know. I would say that this guy does need to sell his business. I understand that alcohol is legal and that many do drink in a responsible manner, but there are certain activities that Christians have no business encouraging. We see the glamorous side of alcohol, but how many times do we see the other side. Remember that we are a "slave to that which has overcome us". Countless lives have been under bondage and ruined because they've fallen for the allure of alcohol. In the beginning, it seemed wonderful, but later on, they became beholden to it. How can two walk together unless they be agreed? What fellowship do light and darkness have with each other. We cannot serve two masters. This fellow will ultimately need to make a choice of whom he'll serve--King alcohol (and the profits to be made) or King Jesus. If he chooses to hold on to both, his choice will have been made-- sadly in favor of King alcohol. He should be lovingly counselled for this since he may not be aware of all of this.

[12volt_man]

Whether or not there's compromising going on for his money is not always easy to know. I would say that this guy does need to sell his business. I understand that alcohol is legal and that many do drink in a responsible manner, but there are certain activities that Christians have no business encouraging. We see the glamorous side of alcohol, but how many times do we see the other side. Remember that we are a "slave to that which has overcome us". Countless lives have been under bondage and ruined because they've fallen for the allure of alcohol. In the beginning, it seemed wonderful, but later on, they became beholden to it. How can two walk together unless they be agreed? What fellowship do light and darkness have with each other. We cannot serve two masters. This fellow will ultimately need to make a choice of whom he'll serve--King alcohol (and the profits to be made) or King Jesus. If he chooses to hold on to both, his choice will have been made-- sadly in favor of King alcohol. He should be lovingly counselled for this since he may not be aware of all of this.

OK. If you're going to be consistent, would you also tell a restaurant owner to sell his restaurant, since food leads to obesity, gluttony, and health risks?

[jlujan69]

OK. If you're going to be consistent, would you also tell a restaurant owner to sell his restaurant, since food leads to obesity, gluttony, and health risks?

How often do you read about obesity causing someone to spend his most of his paycheck to obtain more food for himself at the expense of his family and paying the bills? Can someone be driving impaired by eating too much food? How many people have been killed by drivers with a very full belly? How many families have been ruined because mom or dad was overweight? People who abuse food are prone to commit what crimes in order to satisfy their cravings? Why pretend as if alcohol and food consumption are one and the same in their potential consequences?

[Serving4Christ]

Not knowing the man, I'd have to say in good faith he's trying to make a decent living for his family. Bars need good Christian men in them too! Jesus never said witness to only non-bar drinking people. The man is on your stage singing praises to his Father in heaven. I think the guy should be commended myself. He's not tending the bar on Sunday. It could be that bar that saves a 1,000 men to the glory of Christ.

[TwinCrier]

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

[Shane Roach]

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

I'm reminded of the verse, "Take, drink, this is my blood."

I have been under the understanding for some years now that it is drinking to excess that is wrong. Now, a bar, which for the most part focuses on alchohol, well, I can see how that might raise some questions for some, but I believe one should be pretty carefull before judging a person for doing something that not only is legal but is also not condemned at all anywhere in the Bible. That is to say, making and selling alchohol, and drinking in moderation.

I'm in agreement with some who have suggested perhaps you engage this individual in a conversation about your concners, walkingfeet. I hope I haven't come across as encouraging drunkeness either, as that is not my intention. There is for some things in life no line at all, but merely the teachings of moderation. Another verse that you might find helpfull in trying to ballance this all out in your own mind is Matthew 11:18-19.

matthew 11:18-19

What I hope to achieve by pointing this verse out is that there has to be some balance, and some operation of sense and moderation on both ends of the extremes of asceticism and freedom. We can't be at one another's throats over these sorts of things, else what happens to our fellowship?

Like I said, talk to the man. Get to know him. Then judge for yourself whether you think he is reliable. If not, well, you can look for others within that church to spend your time with, and perhaps even another church in time if it makes you that uncomfortable. But do try to remain even as you already have indicated, not willing to be a part of raising some sort of enmity or discord within the church.

Glad to see you here!
Shane

I hope this has helped

[jlujan69]

I understand that Scripture doesn't outright ban alcohol consumption, but Proverbs is sprinkled with wisdom about not even getting involved with it. We see this in the sad stories about the destructive effects of alcohol abuse. It's not only the drinker who's adversely affected. True, not everyone is an alcoholic, however, those who end up abusing it didn't start out with the intention of being a drunkard. Chances are, he figured it'd be ok to have a drink with the boys once in a while, but found over time that he desired more of it more often. Because it's addictive and destructive, we need to be extremely wise in how we deal with it and not simply equate recreational drinking with any other ordinary activity. The two are just not the same.

[Serving4Christ]

Couldn't Jesus have the title as bartender? Did He not serve the party with the BEST wine they'd ever tasted? The guests finished up the wine they had. It seems to me, Jesus served the wine to the wedding leaving the responsibility to those who drank of it.

[jangnim]

Couldn't Jesus have the title as bartender? Did He not serve the party with the BEST wine they'd ever tasted? The guests finished up the wine they had. It seems to me, Jesus served the wine to the wedding leaving the responsibility to those who drank of it.

I think you are reaching here.

[12volt_man]

Can someone be driving impaired by eating too much food?

Actually, yes.

How many people have been killed by drivers with a very full belly?

How many people have been killed by drivers who had a heart attack or a diabetic episode behind the wheel because of their poor eating habits?

How many families have been ruined because mom or dad was overweight?

I would wager that more families have been left without a parent due to health problems resulting from poor eating habits than from alcohol.

Heart disease, diabetes, stroke, etc..

Why pretend as if alcohol and food consumption are one and the same in their potential consequences?

Because logically, they are.

You're assuming that the bar owner shouldn't own a bar because a very small minority will abuse the alcohol he serves, even though he acts in good faith on the assumption that they are drinking responsibly.

On the other hand, you believe it's perfectly OK for a restaurantuer to own a restaurant, even though many more people in today's society have eating disorders and poor eating habits, which lead to disease and death.

I'm just trying to find some consistency in your comparison of the two.

[jangnim]

I understand that Scripture doesn't outright ban alcohol consumption, but Proverbs is sprinkled with wisdom about not even getting involved with it. We see this in the sad stories about the destructive effects of alcohol abuse. It's not only the drinker who's adversely affected. True, not everyone is an alcoholic, however, those who end up abusing it didn't start out with the intention of being a drunkard. Chances are, he figured it'd be ok to have a drink with the boys once in a while, but found over time that he desired more of it more often. Because it's addictive and destructive, we need to be extremely wise in how we deal with it and not simply equate recreational drinking with any other ordinary activity. The two are just not the same.

I would agree with this to some extent but would add that the guy himself is not drinking, he is working to earn money to pay his bills. Yes he is doing so in a questionable job, but honestly Jesus didn't save me and change everything about my life right away. He is slowly, by His Spirit altering me into the image of Christ, just as He is with you, with all of us.

I note that Zacheus, when he met God, didn't say he was going to quit collecting taxes, but rather that he would do the task more honorably.

I guess the question is, can God save exotic dancers and bar tenders, and people who sell liquor over the counter? It seems a foolish question when I read it, knowing that an all powerful God can do anything.

Now should we be drinkers? No, that is obvious from Proverbs. Can we serve strong drink? The Bible is generally unclear on the subject. It seems to allow for it on certain occasions. Is drinking a sin? It can be. Is drinking a crime? More often when it is out of control.

The point I am making is that Jesus saves us wherever we are. He doesn't demand a change in profession. We simply don't know all of the circumstances in this case. Has this fellow sunk all that he has into the bar, and thus simply can't get his investment out? Has he been saved for a very long time? What is his heart on the subject? If we don't know these answers, how then can we reply wisely? Let's not forget that God is Love.

[Serving4Christ]

I think you are reaching here.

Actually, I don't think I am. Jesus meets us where we are and he uses us ANYWHERE we may be. Only He knows our heart. Some are making judgements they're not qualified to make.

Jesus used a woman at the well, a blind man, a lame man, fishermen, a tax collector. Some of the stated could be construed as worse than a bar tender back in those days.

I say perhpas Jesus could have been a bartender. We know different because of what we read from scripture and our personal relationship with Him. We know Jesus on a personal level, none of which anyone here has encountered with the bar owner besides the OP.

I haven't heard the OP say anything negative about the bar owner. Yet some are consistent in judging him without getting to know him. He might be richer in heaven than any of us here for all we know, and I accept that. Until proven otherwise, keep bar tending. People in bars need Christian support and love too. Until I hear otherwise about how he practices in his bar, he has my support.

Just my 1.5 cents

[jangnim]

Actually, I don't think I am. Jesus meets us where we are and he uses us ANYWHERE we may be. Only He knows our heart. Some are making judgements they're not qualified to make.

Jesus used a woman at the well, a blind man, a lame man, fishermen, a tax collector. Some of the stated could be construed as worse than a bar tender back in those days.

I say perhpas Jesus could have been a bartender. We know different because of what we read from scripture and our personal relationship with Him. We know Jesus on a personal level, none of which anyone here has encountered with the bar owner besides the OP.

I haven't heard the OP say anything negative about the bar owner. Yet some are consistent in judging him without getting to know him. He might be richer in heaven than any of us here for all we know, and I accept that. Until proven otherwise, keep bar tending. People in bars need Christian support and love too. Until I hear otherwise about how he practices in his bar, he has my support.

Just my 1.5 cents Okay I Understand your point I was simply saying Jesus was never a bartender. I do however agree with you, that many are judging without really knowing the facts of this mans life.

Isn't it odd how people are so quick to judge the other guy, no matter how little they acrually know.:)

[Shane Roach]

I think we are all closer to being on the same page than not. I too share concerns with alchohol that far exceed my concernd with overeating. I just am leary of getting too far ahead of myself when dealing with someone who just happens to own a bar. If a soldier can remain a soldier as long as he doesn't abuse his power, I think a bartender is likely a pretty safe profession, if not perhaps one that will tend to draw a lot of respect. I know of a very prominant pastor in the Methodist church who ministers in the black community in Houston TX who, for some time, owned a motelthat rented rooms by the hour. He was not a pimp, but it is no mystery what happens in rooms like that. When he was first converted he maintained that work for some time, and really as merely the owner of the place he was not in direct violation of anything, but the Spirit eventually moved him to seek his gainfull employment in other ways because of how it looked, and I suspect perhaps if this fellow feels a call to ever do more than just perform in the band that he will likewise be struck by an urge to perhaps find something more fit for appearances sake.

It was not for nothing that God, for example, felt that Solomon should build His temple rather than David, to separate His worship from David's lifetime of warfare. It was not a statement against David, but against war. Still, ultimately that is how it worked out, even though one has to know David dearly would have loved to build the Temple, and God called David a man after His own heart.

Appearances are important. But also it's important to be able to give space for differing levels of faith and understanding. :)

[Child of JC]

So you have a sinner at your church? Or does the bar have a regular christian?

[Ceccia]

I doubt most "responsible drinkers" hang out at bars.


You might be surprised. I worked in a bar last year, and it was very low-key. I never had to ask the bouncer to throw anyone out, there was no one dancing on tables or anything questionable...in my year of working there I had to cut someone off on a mere two occasions. Most people had one or two drinks and either sat at the tables and talked or played pool.

[reformedfan]

I know a mega church that has invited an active member of a cult to be in their "worship & praise" band. Apparently church bands have no standards for who they let in. I bet if the neighborhood crack dealer played a mean bass, they'd recruit him, too.

Too bad the bar owner's in yours, I'd complain to management.