Killing People is a sin What about war. [Archive]

FaithAlone

5th April 2005, 04:23 PM

In the Old Testament God told king Saul and others to completely wipe out a nation (men, women, babies, and even animals) because of that nation's sin. I don't have my Bible here at work so I can't give you any scripture right now. Maybe someone else? It is a tough question but I don't believe it's a sin if it is in self defense against evil.

Singing Bush

6th April 2005, 12:28 AM

It's my understanding that the commandment you are referring to, or which I at least think you are referring to, states not so much, "do not kill", but "do not murder." Those are of course different things. I am not a master of ancient languages though so I cannot say this with any degree of certainty, but it's what I have heard.

MrJim

6th April 2005, 06:14 PM

Check out the "Why do Christians Kill" thread in General Theology.

miyako_1984

6th April 2005, 07:10 PM

Actually, I'm not so comfortable with the idea of sin on a national level - not that it doesn't exist, but that dealing with whole societies going to war against each other is a dodgy ground for any talk of dichotic good and evil- especially when ideas like 'sinful nations' translate to an individual level.

Nonetheless, I have few qualms about saying that killing in war is sinful, just like murder- even that they are the same thing. Sin is, at heart, about selfishness and acting through the perspective of mankind never mind what rationale he can come up with to justify his own way. As for protection, the greatest protection is through God so if it really came down to an unavoidable choice between killing or being killed (which I don't believe is usually the case when nations go to war), I would like to think as one of God's people I would trust in Him for protection.

It is not necessarily God's perpective that we should have eighty troublefree and healthy years on this earth, nor our entitlement - given we have eternity awaiting. Plenty have died at the hands of man, it is not God that does the killing.

Telrunya

7th April 2005, 11:02 AM

Thanks Singing Bush for pointing out that it is not a sin to kill. It is a sin to murder. They are not the same thing.

WesWoodell

7th April 2005, 11:12 AM

Hi i have a quiestion killing people is a sin so what About WAR people kill to protect one's country is that a sin.Christian's also go to war do they feel guilt for their action's.What if you kill for your own protection,(Self Defense).What Happen's??

My Bible says - do not murder. The Greek word is "ratsach" and the emphasis is on murder.

"Do not murder" and "Do not kill" are two different commands.

repoland2

9th April 2005, 11:06 PM

I am in agreement with Wes.

Cain murdered his brother because he was jealous of him. That is a sin.

The Lord commanded King Saul to destroy all those people, Men, Women, and Children. That was necessary to clean sin away in order to bring Glory back to the Lord, starting from scratch. It was also a punishment.

The 'sin' part, comes from the motivation behind the kill.

To answer your question about Christian soldiers who go out to the field and kill, yes we feel guilty. However, we are given peace, because we know that if we kill, it is not with false motivation. I go and do what I must to further Glorify His name and do what the Lord wishes of me. I am in acceptance of this, therefore I feel at peace.

AscendNetwork

10th April 2005, 06:33 PM

War is Biblical and necessary at times.

AscendNetwork

10th April 2005, 06:33 PM

Soloman said there is a time for war and a time for peace.

Rebirth In Flames

10th April 2005, 06:54 PM

War is Biblical and necessary at times.

Only in OT times, Jesus however changed it to "turn the other cheek" in the NT. From NT times to the present day, killing has been against the Bible even if it's "for God." You may believe that it's the right thing to do, but all of your scriptural support will be found in the OT; this is because Jesus got rid of murder/killing in the NT and if you keep it in that context then you have no argument.

Keep this issue in context of both the OT AND the NT; too many people only look at the OT and forget Jesus' teachings in the New.

Soloman said there is a time for war and a time for peace.

Yes, in Eccl. Again, keep this in CONTEXT of the last two verses of that book. (If you interpret Eccl. verse-by-verse like you just did, it's rather depressing and you might as well end your life - because that too is meaningless.. "Everything is meaningless".. thus, translate it, understand it, and keep it in the context of the last two verses - i.e. the book as a WHOLE)

Singing Bush

10th April 2005, 08:38 PM

Only in OT times, Jesus however changed it to "turn the other cheek" in the NT. From NT times to the present day, killing has been against the Bible even if it's "for God." You may believe that it's the right thing to do, but all of your scriptural support will be found in the OT; this is because Jesus got rid of murder/killing in the NT and if you keep it in that context then you have no argument.

Keep this issue in context of both the OT AND the NT; too many people only look at the OT and forget Jesus' teachings in the New.While I do not necessarily agree or disagree w/ what you say, I do have a question or two for you. Is killing to protect another justified? Is killing in defensive wars justified? Is killing in a war devised to protect others justified (such as if peacemakers were to have been sent in to Rwanda in the early 1990's?) Thanks for your thoughts.

Rebirth In Flames

10th April 2005, 08:50 PM

I’m going to use the cliché “WWJD?” to answer your question; seeing as how we’re striving to be like Christ, it seems to fit. Can you imagine Jesus marching out to war with a sword in hand? (The Jews saw that messiah, that’s why they crucified Jesus for not fitting that description and being too relaxed; he didn’t fit the description of a worldly -conqueror that they envisioned the messiah to be...and they're still waiting for that kind of messiah!) Also, if a group of men came to kill Jesus for reasons that had no real basis, can you imagine him fighting back? (If I recall, he didn’t fight back.. and also told his disciples not to fight back.) I can’t imagine Jesus marching on a battle field killing other men, and I can’t imagine Jesus killing those whom want to harm him...he didn't even curse them, let alone raise his fists! Seeing as how I’m trying to be like Jesus, I cannot with any spiritual logic justify any reason for taking another life. How much more powerful in God's eyes to bless those who harm me, than to harm those who harm me! It's logic that's not of this world.

Forest

10th April 2005, 11:12 PM

My Bible says - do not murder. The Greek word is "ratsach" and the emphasis is on murder.

"Do not murder" and "Do not kill" are two different commands.

Then when is killing justified?, and who gets to decide when it is justified?

Murder means unlawful killing, so then whose law makes it lawful. The laws of the Country or State you happen to be in or God's law?

Brother_Justin

10th April 2005, 11:27 PM

Then when is killing justified?, and who gets to decide when it is justified?

Murder means unlawful killing, so then whose law makes it lawful. The laws of the Country or State you happen to be in or God's law?

Amen to that!! Why don't we send missions over to the middle east instead of soldiers! so many lives have been lost and so many men, woman, and children have died not knowing the gospil. I take up my war spirtualy without a weapon!

:pray: Father please help us to put down the weapons and pick up the Bibles! :pray:

Love brother ~Justin~ <><

repoland2

11th April 2005, 01:56 AM

Brother_Justin

11th April 2005, 02:18 AM

Let me ask you all this.

Do you all expect, a world that is filled with sin, in which a greater amount of the population is ruled by sin and will never accept God... to act as children of God and 'turn the other cheek' or 'forgive thy neighbor'?

For me it isnt about what others do but what I do. I do not expect that they would, but I do know that I will because Jesus commands me to.

Love brother ~Justin~ :prayer:

miyako_1984

11th April 2005, 06:07 AM

Let me ask you all this.

Do you all expect, a world that is filled with sin, in which a greater amount of the population is ruled by sin and will never accept God... to act as children of God and 'turn the other cheek' or 'forgive thy neighbor'?

In that respect, the world is the same way it was when Jesus said these things - they were more than lip service then too.

Forest

11th April 2005, 10:47 AM

Singing Bush

11th April 2005, 10:14 PM

I’m going to use the cliché “WWJD?” to answer your question; seeing as how we’re striving to be like Christ, it seems to fit.Hmm... alrighty. So what would you have recommended the United States (or any Allied state for that matter) do during the progression of World War II? Just say, "sucks to be a Jew" and leave it at that? What would you have counseled the President to do during the Rwanda genocide?

As an addendum...

Or for that matter, what would you do if someone were to attempt to take the life of a family member or loved one?

twistedsketch

12th April 2005, 06:10 PM

Twos things we need to remember: Jesus submitted to death on a cross, but He didn't volunteer His disciples to suffer the same fate: "'I told you that I am he,' Jesus answered. 'If you are looking for me, then let these men go.'" - John 1:8

Never does the Bible condemn fighting for the welfare of others. If someone wants to harm you that's one thing. But if they have to get through you so they can get to your wife or your kids, that's another. Choosing the pacifist's approach when there are others in danger is committing a great sin against those under your protection. In that case, you do what you need to in order to keep them safe.

Also, we must remember that God Himself never changes. The same God we have today blessed Abraham for fighting (Genesis 14).And rather than change commandments on us, I do believe that turning the other cheek is in a relational context, referring to justice and revenge rather than protection.

Rebirth In Flames

12th April 2005, 06:26 PM

Hmm... alrighty. So what would you have recommended the United States (or any Allied state for that matter) do during the progression of World War II? Just say, "sucks to be a Jew" and leave it at that? What would you have counseled the President to do during the Rwanda genocide?

You sound like you know the answers pretty well; however I can't answer what I would do, but I do ask you, what do you think Jesus would have done? Seriously. Tell me that you can imagine Jesus killing another man, (for WHATEVER reason), and you will win this argument...can you honestly say that you can imagine Jesus killing another man? Don't ask me again what I would do, because this isn't about me... I'm simply asking you what Jesus would do.

jesusfreak3786

15th April 2005, 01:36 PM

Hi i have a quiestion killing people is a sin so what About WAR people kill to protect one's country is that a sin.Christian's also go to war do they feel guilt for their action's.What if you kill for your own protection,(Self Defense).What Happen's??

"If thine enemy smites thee on the cheek, turn ye the other cheek also."

I don't agree with killing a living human, I have never been in such a situation where I would have to kill someone to defend myself, but I hope I would trust my Fathers will and refraine.

MrJim

15th April 2005, 06:54 PM

Let me ask you all this.

Do you all expect, a world that is filled with sin, in which a greater amount of the population is ruled by sin and will never accept God... to act as children of God and 'turn the other cheek' or 'forgive thy neighbor'?

No, but that's what Jesus want us to regardless...

It sort of falls in with that whole "rain falls on the just and the unjust" line of thinking Jesus was always coming up with. You know, the part where he says if we are only good to our friends we're no better than tax collectors. It seems if we are to be like the Father we are to treat all people as Jesus would whether they like us or not. Yeah, you might get beat up, you might get shot, and you might get killed, but that is the front line of Christianity-lost in the US but very real in other parts of the world.

michaeldimmickjr

15th April 2005, 07:57 PM

I don't think we can compare Jesus to ourselves. True He was a man temporarily so He could die for our sins. You want NT scripture that supports that war is ok? Look at Matthew 5:17. Now, if the 10 commandments are considered "Law" then Jesus supports them. And if you can't "picture" Jesus in war, read Revelation 19:11-16. Jesus IS coming back and He IS going to war!

Yours in Christ,

Michael

MrJim

15th April 2005, 11:10 PM

michaeldimmickjr

16th April 2005, 08:53 PM

Of course we can compare Jesus to ourself. He is our example. He not only became man to die for our sins but also to show us a new way to live.

Jesus being our model yes. But comparing the "human" things we do, no. He knew no sin. We were born into it. That's what I mean't.

Yours in Christ,

Michael

Singing Bush

18th April 2005, 12:45 PM

You sound like you know the answers pretty well; however I can't answer what I would do, but I do ask you, what do you think Jesus would have done? Seriously. Tell me that you can imagine Jesus killing another man, (for WHATEVER reason), and you will win this argument...can you honestly say that you can imagine Jesus killing another man? Don't ask me again what I would do, because this isn't about me... I'm simply asking you what Jesus would do.Well first let me say I did not mean for this to be an "argument" and I'm sorry if I have come across as hostile. That said, I have no idea what Jesus would have done if faced w/ some of the issues I have presented as he never faced anything like them (or at least if he did it wasn't written down.) I don't even know if what Jesus would do is always what we should do in the first place. Being part God he had a little something extra we do not and a purpose we do not. Would Jesus get married? Would Jesus have romantic relationships at all? Would Jesus pursue any career aside from ministry? Would Jesus have taken off a week of ministry to go and console his family if one of them was sick? I cannot see him killing a man, no, but nor can I see him stand by while one man kills another or while one population attempts to wipe out another. Debating what he would do is really irrelevant though because he is no longer alive making decisions today. He is no longer electing leaders nor influencing friends who elect leaders. You and I are and that's why I press the matter with you so much. Avoiding or ignoring an issue such as this is just the same as not caring at all, and not fully reasoning out any idea will only get you a "good" answer if you're lucky.

SeekAnd

19th April 2005, 12:32 AM

This is a very intersting thread. I have read some of the other posts and find it hard to disagree with any of your reasoning.

I always try to apply the WWJD method to conflicts in my life,

I have also wondered WWJD if He were not the son of God. He never had to overcome sin and feel the seperation we do because of it.

I know that Jesus taught us to turn the other cheek. He also taught us the example of laying down His life for the benefit of others. He could have ruled on earth like many thought He should.

Would Jesus want us to protect our families from those who would harm them?

Would Jesus want us to only be concerned with the well being of those we know?

Would Jesus want us to lay down our opinions about what we think we should do for the benefit of others?

godsgirl4ever

26th April 2005, 09:08 AM

Hi i have a quiestion killing people is a sin so what About WAR people kill to protect one's country is that a sin.Christian's also go to war do they feel guilt for their action's.What if you kill for your own protection,(Self Defense).What Happen's??

Killing people is the same thing of having a war cause waht do you do in a war you kill people!
God Forgives you & forgets it too.