Bar owner on stage every sunday?

[walkingfeet]

I need to know is this right? Every sunday there is a bar owner on the praise and worship team, is this right or do you think there is compromise going on for the mans money? It kinda bothers me because now I dont know what to think I stopped drinking when I got saved and by seeing this man up there it's like saying it's ok. Is this any differnt than selling crack or herion ?would they let a crack dealer on the praise and worship team? anybody have any input on the subject?

[julian the apostate]

christ served alcohol for his first miracle

[FaithAlone]

But this guy serves alcohol to men and women who are going to get drunk. I don't know of any bars where people only drink one drink and then go on their way. I would be upset by it but then again Winn Dixie sells beer so who knows? Why does this guy still run the bar? Does he use it at all as a mission field to witness? That is a very interesting question. I could definitely see more harm in it than good. He is more than likely causing quite a few people to stumble and that isn't good.

[julian the apostate]

But this guy serves alcohol to men and women who are going to get drunk.




Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

[ethereal_]

He is more than likely causing quite a few people to "stumble" and that isn't good.

That alone says it all.

[julian the apostate]

by stumble, do you mean he is causing people to doubt their faith or his faith?

[Ginny]

totally agree with every post, except the one that Jesus served wine....I can't compare God to a bartended for some weird reason.

Anyhow, him being a bartender is definitely a stumbling block. Others will say don't judge, but I do not feel that is. He is what he is. Everyone knows what alcohol leads to...it is the core of many different sins...alcoholism, adultery, murder (drunk driving), financial ruin, idolatry, family disruption, etc...

There are people that do wrong things at every church..I believe we can all say AMEN! to that....What type of church do you go to? This is just from my experience, but I have never been to a church where someone is doing something "to that degree" with that type of participation within the church.. The worst thing I have ever been made aware of within a church is a prominent figure divorcing his wife with 6 kids between them either due to money and/or adultery but he soon left b/c he knew better.

That is a strange situation. Often, if you have strong enough Christians within your church, others are confronted and should be about this in a loving manner.

[Ginny]

I think being a stumbling block can mean many different things....

For one, he could be a stumbling block to the non-Christian....The majority of non-Christians believe, I feel, that those that are Christians do not drink. If one that is being drawn to accept Christ sees this sort of thing being done by another Christian, it may cause them to stumble in their walk....allowing them to question the acts of what a true Christian is.

Let me put it this way, if you know that I am a Christian but yet you saw me in a bar, or heard me cussing, or saw me dressed like a *whatever*, would you question in your mind if I really was a Christian..Or if you were not a Christian, wouldn't you wonder what in the world I was doing?

Anyone that has been around these forums long enough understands what I mean when I say that the non-Christian, atheist, whatever, will take anything they hear that is morally wrong, etc. to put a Christian "down" and denounce their faith for their wrongdoings...

1 Corinthians 10:31-33 31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God– 33even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

Another example would be that he could be a stumbling block to himself and his family...If he is working at a place where people are drinking or getting drunk then he is leading himself wide open for drunken women to possibly "hit om him"...Satan will use any source that he can to devour...also imagine purchasing liquor for someone else to buy in which they later kill an entire family in a drunk driving accident.

Phillipian 3:14
I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
2 Corinthians 6:3 3We put no stumbling block in anyone's path, so that our ministry will not be discredited...


We will never be perfect, but we must strive to do so.....:thumbsup:

[holo]

Pfffft.

Jesus didn't mind the tax collectors praising Him. Tax collectors back then were like the scum of society, like hookers.
My dream church welcomes everyone and anyone, and I'd much rather have an honest bar owner or junkie singing his praise than a Nice Christian clean-voiced singer in his best sunday clothes.

"From the mouths of babes...."

Don't you dare critizise him for owning a bar when you yourselves probably are blocking the door to the Kingdom of God for all those who feel too sinful or too shabby to even go to church.

Go bar owner!

[FaithAlone]

My dream church welcomes everyone and anyone, and I'd much rather have an honest bar owner or junkie singing his praise than a Nice Christian clean-voiced singer in his best sunday clothes.

You are so right to want to accept all into your church but read Romans 6. Should we continue in sin so that grace may abound? May it never be! How can someone who has died to sin still live in it? We will never be perfect but it is very clear that we should strive very hard to be. Jesus always fellowshipped with sinners but only because they realized that they needed a Savior. He always said "Go, and sin no more."

[holo]

See your point, but I don't consider owning a bar and believing in Jesus to be hypocritical or anything like that. I'm sure the man can serve God in his bar too (pun intended).

There's room for bar goers in heaven, and there's room for Jesus in a bar.

[FaithAlone]

I agree that he can serve God in his bar : ) I do think it could be a problem for people but since I believe that once you are saved you're always saved I think that the important thing is: Are people getting saved or are people being prevented from being saved? Is he telling a child who might have a tendency to become an alcoholic that it's ok to drink or is he showing the church that they need to go out into the world and share the Gospel instead of judging each other? It's a tough decision and I think he needs to be the one to make it. At the same time, if he is the stronger brother he should realize that not everyone will approve of what he does.

[Ginny]

Pfffft.Jesus didn't mind the tax collectors praising Him. Tax collectors back then were like the scum of society, like hookers.
My dream church welcomes everyone and anyone, and I'd much rather have an honest bar owner or junkie singing his praise than a Nice Christian clean-voiced singer in his best sunday clothes.Don't you dare critizise him for owning a bar when you yourselves probably are blocking the door to the Kingdom of God for all those who feel too sinful or too shabby to even go to church.


No one is questioning the man's salvation! No one is saying the church should not welcome the bar owner.

You says that Jesus did not mind the tax collectors praising Him...comparing them to hookers in that day; however, would Jesus have wanted these individuals to continue to be tax collectors (or hookers as you stated)? I believe not.

Although Jesus told us that "he that cast the first stone be without sin" he also told the woman caught in the act of adultery..."go and sin no more". (John 8)

If we want to find out what God thinks about that, then we open His word. Scripture was given about people being stumbling blocks. Unless this man is running a bar where he gets them in and then serves them OJ with the plan of salvation then he could in fact be a stumbling block to others....what do you think has happened with the original poster? He is questioning this man b/c it did not "sit right" with him. This is a perfect example.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=17&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

If we are created in God's image, then we are to be as God. Do you think God would run a bar? I don't think He would. I think He would go into a bar only to bring the people out and preach to them to share His love.

Again, no one was disciminating against him, just giving their opinion to the original poster (which he did ask for).

;)

[walkingfeet]

It wouldnt bother me if he was sitting in a pew hearing the word we all need to, it's just seeing the man on stage saying praise God on Sunday come on over and i'll pour you a drink on Monday,just dont seem right. Really i'v been trying to forget about all this I'v even been praying to forget . but it just wont leave my mind. I dont want to leave my church and I'm trusting God to do what he will.Where ever he leads me
that's where I want to be.I just want to get some input...thanks

[julian the apostate]

the idea that it is inherently evil to drink is a uniquely american protestant christian idea

are you doubting your faith over this or his?

[walkingfeet]

I"m
not doubting anyones faith

[Ginny]

the idea that it is inherently evil to drink is a uniquely american protestant christian idea

No one on this thread has once stated that drinking in itself is inherently evil.

Do you or do you not agree that there are many sins committed as a result from alcohol? I already listed them so for the sake of making the same point again I will list them....adultery, alcoholism, murder (drunk driving), premarital sex, profanity, and offensiveness to God, and again, a stumbling block.

Well, if this same individual is the owner, or condoner I should say, by allowing a place to remain open so that these things may occur...then yes, there is wrong to it. Like the OP said, would it be any different if the person was a drug dealer or used crack...let's try prostitution?

No one said this man does not love Jesus or that Jesus does not love this man. What we are saying that as a Christian we should abstain from all evil, and if many forms of evil are a result from alcohol, then as a Christian he should not be doing that....

Are we all perfect- no.

I think this subject has been beat to death. I cannot and will not keep defending my stance or others on this, except when my words get twisted- which is what has been done.

OP, you are correct in having concern over this manner. Perhaps you should speak to your pastor about this. The majority agrees with you.

[julian the apostate]

Do you or do you not agree that there are many sins committed as a result from alcohol?

i would say not as many or as greivous as religion

[MG]

Do you or do you not agree that there are many sins committed as a result from alcohol?

i would say not as many or as greivous as religion

:amen:

[Ginny]

Well, seeing as I don't "do" religion that comment does not pertain to me.

Being a christian is not about "religion".

But I think the post is about a bartender, right? Or am I on the wrong thread?
:)

[MG]

If this bar owner was to try and minister to his patrons while he himself was drunk, I can see where this would be scandalous. Otherwise, I feel like he is in a great spot to be a light in darkness! If he is indeed a child of God, and God wants him to move on, then this bar owner will get the hint. You could very well be undermining God's own judgement call to have this guy be at the right place at the right time.

Cheers

[holo]

Do you think God would run a bar?Yes! In fact, that's basically the first thing Jesus did. I don't mind christians or others selling booze or tobacco or anything (but each according to his own conscience of course).

Getting a funky feeling about seeing a bar owner in the worship team is a symptom something is wrong, IMO, but not with the bartender. How come christians are often like a race of their own, with their norms and their culture?
I've not been to many churches where I'd bring someone who had no idea about God. The preachers in their suits and the well-dressed people and their often rotten attitudes have made many a seeker turn back in the door.

The bar owner probably gets to see a lot of sad things. Alcoholics and all. But he obviously know God, and that Jesus can help those people. How many drunkards can expect to meet a believer when they order a beer?

Maybe his life purpose is to rescue one of the thousands of bums or depressed drinkers, and he's certainly in the best position to do it. The lost drunk is worth way more to God than our hurt feelings and smashed expectations and narrow frames and nice church culture.

[holo]

Oh, and who decided only "holy" people shold be allowed on the worship team as to not disturb our norms?
The main difference between the bar owner and the rest of us is that we KNOW he's a bar owner while we conveniantly keep our own shortcomings and sins to ourselves. He's probably singing right next to a guy who downloaded gay porn before the service. Think about it.

[MrsGnomeCrusher]

Oh, and who decided only "holy" people shold be allowed on the worship team as to not disturb our norms?
The main difference between the bar owner and the rest of us is that we KNOW he's a bar owner while we conveniantly keep our own shortcomings and sins to ourselves. He's probably singing right next to a guy who downloaded gay porn before the service. Think about it.

This is exactly what I was going to say. This man's shortcomings are for the world to see and judge. And judge they do! However, if you knew the lives of everyone on that praise and worship team, you'd find that they have thier own issues and shortcomings. We're all sinners and we all, at one point or another, cause others to stumble. Let God work on this man instead of throwing stones.

[julian the apostate]

he is not doing anything wrong

poor guy

[Ginny]

Maybe that is something the OP can do is just flat out ask the guy....

"Are you in any way using the selling of alcohol to honor God?"
"When people buy drinks are you handing them a plan of salvation?"
"Are there bibles on the tables next to the peanuts?
"Are there flyers posted on the bar walls as to when his church meets?"
"Does he sing praise songs as entertainment for the customers?"
"Is there a dress code for the ladies as to not offend anyone?"

I guess you could be right...

[Ginny]

Also, I would not consider Jesus as a bartender b/c he turned water into wine...that is hardly comparable and in my opinion blasphemous. I don't dare think that God would want to be considered as someone that is condoning the things that result from drinking. Again, no one said drinking in itself is evil, but there are other things that have had to be repeated several times on this thread as well.

That was a wedding, not an after hours party, folks. Good grief.

[holo]

Well, Ginny, what's your job then?

Are you handing out flyers about Jesus? (hope you're not, because they're mostly just annoying).
Do you honor God with your job?
Do you honor God by posting here?
Are you serving God with the food you eat and the clothes you wear and the car you drive?
Come on...

[Ginny]

Holo, thank you so much for concern about the well being of my life and relationship with Jesus Christ. It means the world to me; however, I will not answer you not just b/c it is none of your business or b/c the answers are actually all yes, but b/c we are talking about a bartender.

Now, on a serious note. Those questions were asked b/c it was mentioned that this man could be honoring God through his job as a bar owner..quote "I feel like he is in a great spot to be a light in darkness!" unquote.

I asked some things that he could be doing as a Christian and a bar owner and it was obviously seen as a joke, b/c you wrote me back with sarcasm...so there is the answer right there. Are they or are they not examples of how he could be serving the kingdom of God in a bar?

Also, there was really no need to answer your questions specifically about me. I do not claim to be "holier than thou"...we are discussing this man, his career as a condoner and profiteer of the selling of alcohol. Read the thread question again.

Christians sin all the time; HOWEVER, there is a difference in knowing our sin and turning away from them and attempting to perfect ourself vs. condoning and profiting off the selling of alcohol for a living in which adultery is committed, along with premarital sex, drunk driving, murder, fighting, offensiveness to God, etc. If this guy wants to witness to drunkards, as it was recently stated, he does not have to make a profit to do so. Surely everyone here knows where they can go to in their town to find a drunk. The same body that is witnessing to someone who will commit a vile sin from alcohol is connected to the same hand that is taking the money and making a profit off the selling of alcohol.

Does God condone those things? No, he does not. If you make a buck off the sins of alcohol which produces evil, then hey... I think that is the real topic here..not whether alcohol is inheritantly evil....but that the guy is a prominent figure in the church condoning alcohol and making some money off other people's (potential) sins......How do you think he would feel if a family was killed b/c of alcohol sold at his establishment in which he made money?

There are as many lost people at McDonald's as there are at bars. Have a happy meal and a track about Jesus.

I think I will be like the other poster and finish with this one. I have made my point and opinion...this conversation is going in circles with too much repetition.
:sigh:

[WeLikeSheep]

It means the world to me; however, I will not answer you not just b/c it is none of your business or b/c the answers are actually all yes, but b/c we are talking about a bartender.


Um...if we are our brother's keeper as some people on this thread seem to believe it is, then it *is* his business. Which was my problem with it in the first place. The poster wanted some input and he got it. I still think talking with the pastor about it and at least having a conversation with the bar owner is a good idea.

Which got me to thinking...if the man owned a strip joint, that would bother me. Or is it a neighborhood Cheers-like pub? I personally wouldn't own a bar, but that's my own predeliction. Nor would I own a liquor store (since I'm a recovering alcoholic, it's best that I stay away from booze. And I have personally seen and experienced what alcohol abuse can do, but I am in no way a prohibitionist.) Not everyone who goes to a bar abuses alcohol. So where is the personal responsibility in all this? Isn't the onus on the patrons themselves? And the management reserves the right to refuse sales to people who are clearly inebriated. (Paul tells us in all things we are to be moderate --- we are responsible for that.)

A classic example of this came from a friend of mine whose sister was in a car accident after leaving a bar. Her mother insisted, "She was over-served!" She had a responsibility not to get behind the wheel. (I'm not going to get into legal debates about suing bar tenders for serving drunk patrons. As an active alcoholic, I was fully functional and not "obviously drunk" for them to cut me off. The responsibility was on me and me alone. In our culture of blame, we want to blame everybody but ourselves.)

There are other professions or things about someone I could have problems with that can lead to "sin"...are they ok as worship leaders? I think I have concluded that I will continue to "work out my salvation with fear and trembling." I am grateful for this topic though as it made me really think about some things.

Julie

[julian the apostate]

romans 14

8It's God we are answerable to--all the way from life to death and everything in between--not each other. 9That's why Jesus lived and died and then lived again: so that he could be our Master across the entire range of life and death, and free us from the petty tyrannies of each other.
10So where does that leave you when you criticize a brother? And where does that leave you when you condescend to a sister?

[Telrunya]

Well consuming alcohol isn't a sin, getting drunk is. If this man follows the state's laws and stops serving anyone who looks like they are having too much and getting drunk (This by the way is the law in all 50 states) then he is not doing anything wrong.

[Ginny]

Um...if we are our brother's keeper as some people on this thread seem to believe it is, then it *is* his business. Which was my problem with it in the first place.

I can assure you that this poster was not truly concerned with my well-being. It was intended to to put the focus on me and not the bartender...who happens to be the focus of this thread.

. So where is the personal responsibility in all this?

A Christian as a bar owner would need to question himself in regards to this very well made point.

(a) Side with those that do not abuse
(b) Condone either way...

There is no possibly way to choose just "a" unless he has every customer complete a questionaire at the door or has a sign that says "Responsible Christian drinkers only"..which would be ludicrous....

So he would ultimately have to choose. I think I know what the better choice would be.

The animosity is coming into play when individuals are assuming posters are judging his relationship with God or just flat out judging.

Good post, WeLikeSHeep. :thumbsup:

[FaithAlone]

Are you handing out flyers about Jesus? (hope you're not, because they're mostly just annoying).
Do you honor God with your job?
Do you honor God by posting here?
Are you serving God with the food you eat and the clothes you wear and the car you drive?
Come on...

I'll agree that the flyer thing could get annoying, but come on...? There should be no come on about the other things. If you say that you are a Christian and aren't living it out you should take a look at your coversion and make sure that you are truly saved. Only God can know for sure but you will know a believer by their fruits. You should be honoring God in all that you do. "Live as free men, but don't use your freedom as a covering for evil." (I or II Peter, I don't remember which)

[Ginny]

Amen.

[MG]

It is easy to quickly judge a dude for owning a bar, and call it "un-christian like".

"honor God in all you do" that seems to be the focus on the ANTI BAR OWNER sentiment. Ok, well lets prop the mirror up and disect each one of your lives'. What will you see? Do you honor God with all that you do? Who are you to determine which acts are defined as christian like and which ones aren't? We are all lumped into this sinner's melting pot.

God is not a respecter of person's. Because this man owns a bar, does not mean that he is not "serving" the Lord, nor does it mean that he is a "bad" christian. Others, on the other hand, that are judgemental and down right outwardly righteous, should wear the un-christian like t-shirt!

Poor guy. To me, I am ashamed because this guy has probably witnessed to more people than all of us on this thread combined! How do you know that God is not using this guy??

I am with Julie. This thread has made me think about a lot of things.

[MG]

Backup to my previous posts regarding this brother:

NIV Romans 14:3 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the lord is able to make him stand.

Romans 15:5-6 May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6 so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

[asjs1206]

In my opinion-he should not be allowed to be on stage with the Praise and Worship team for several reasons. Number one his business is a stumbling block to christians and non-christians. Number two I feel that if you are in a position at church in the public eye then your life should portray what the church believes are moral truths. True, Jesus would have visited with sinners in a bar if he were walking on this earth today but to actually own and operate an establishment where people are coming in and becoming intoxicated is another story. What about the people that come to his bar and get drunk and gets behind the wheel of a car and kills an innocent family of 4 out for a drive????

I don't think that is portraying how Christ wants us to live...But of course this is only my opinion...I just think that he should not be allowed on stage with the praise and worship team....
One thing I would like to add, my brother is a minister and for someone to be on the praise and worship team at his church they must be a christian in good standing who is living the christian life. He also must be a member of the church also..

Just a thought:preach:

[skilltroks]

I think anyone can praise God no matter what...so he should be on the praise team.

[FaithAlone]

Who are you to determine which acts are defined as christian like and which ones aren't?

I don't determine that on my own. I use example from the word of God to determine that. And yes we should. We need to know the difference between Christians and the world. I never said that this man could not serve God as a bar owner. I think that it is a stumbling block to believers and non-believers, but nevertheless, he can still serve God. Picking apart our lives to determine whether or not we are serving God in every way possible or not is a great idea. We should be doing it every day.

[julian the apostate]

back to the original op

i personally would be more bothered by the fact that a church has a stage,
than a bar owner who worships God

however i realize that is only my own personal prejudice

[MG]

An alcoholic man at the age of 47 attend's Joe's Bar every Friday night. He works hard as a painter, making next to nothing, and blows his hard earned paycheck on booze. He is filled with numbness, depression, and guilt because he has lost everything including his wife and 2 children, to his addiction to alcohol. So this particular Friday night he strikes up a conversation with the bartender and hears for the first time how Jesus sees him and how much Jesus wants him in the kingdom. Joe tells his own testimony of his past struggles and tells Mr Alcoholic, why don't you just stop by to our men's Bible study on Monday night for a little broo ha ha? Well Mr Alcoholic sneaks in to the Sunday service at church, quietly sits on the back row, and all of a sudden sees Joe on stage praising and worshipping! So Mr Alcoholic begins to ponder of the hope that he sees in Joe. He senses the joy, love and admiration for God. The seed has been planted...........

I agree with ya FaithAlone, we should pick apart our lives. If you picked apart this bar owner's life, I bet you would find many great things he does for our Lord, and many un-great things. He is just like you and I. He is not a stumbling block in my eyes, he is a picture of a pillar of strength to place himself slap dab in the middle of darkness and challenge it!

[holo]

Anyway I usually have more to do with God in bars than in church.

[Ginny]

An alcoholic man at the age of 47 attend's Joe's Bar every Friday night. He works hard as a painter, making next to nothing, and blows his hard earned paycheck on booze. He is filled with numbness, depression, and guilt because he has lost everything including his wife and 2 children, to his addiction to alcohol. So this particular Friday night he gets drunk at Joe's bar who sells alcohol for its popularity and profit, leaves, and kills a mother from drunk drivingwith an infant in the backseat.

or.....So this particular Friday night he sees an attractive lady and in his drunkeness from the alcohol that he bought at Joe's bar and he wakes up next to the lady at Holiday Inn the next morning.

or...So this particular Friday night, he is filled with so much rage and anger he rapes someone.

or...So this particular Friday night he gets drunk at Joe's bar who took his money most willingly, leaves, and commits suicide due to his depression.

or...So this particular Friday night he gets drunk and uses God's name in vain and gets in a fight.

....all from the alcohol that Joe sold him Friday night.

This is still going around in circles. What we have been telling the OP over and over to do is talk with the guy if he is being a stumbling block to him..or speak to the pastor. There is nothing wrong with that.

[julian the apostate]

what if he owned a gun shop?

[Ginny]

It's like some are justifying that what he is doing is noble...


So why does he have to sell alcohol to witness to people? ... he does not have to make a profit off of people to be this big shining light in a deep dark place as others have quoted.

The nice picture protrayed is unfortunately the lesser of the several examples that I gave. It would be nice, but that is just the way it is.

Fact is...this guy is making money off a severe problem called "alcohol" in our society. And unfortunately, he is not serving 90% Christians that have that great once in a blue moon drink.

Again, no one is judging his relationship with God or all the wonderful many things that he does outside the bar-life. We are talking about him as a bar owner coupled with being on the praise team which is what the thread is about.

It is not right to indirectly take part and make profit in the devastation that alcohol can do to others....death, premarital sex, adultery, financial loss, family dissention, depression. ..the list goes on.

[julian the apostate]

what would your opinion be if he owned a gun shop?

[MG]

It's like some are justifying that what he is doing is noble...


And some are judging and condemning him even though he is a brother.

[Andry]

Anyway I usually have more to do with God in bars than in church.
Excellent and insightful! :thumbsup:

I have had more opportunities to share the Gospel in bars than I've had in church.

Besides, where is the mission of the Church? It's outside the walls of our churches.

[Brother_Justin]

Noah built a vinyard and got smashed......and then naked....... hehe Noah must have been a party animal. (totaly off topic but something to ponder)



Let the man praise the Lord God knows Im not perfect, and some of my sin is vissible.

A pastor who wont let somone on a praise band because their not in good standing as a Christian is waving a wond of power he doesnt own.

Yeah what about if the man owned a gun shop. Or how about a fast food restraunt (glutony is a sin do remember)? He would then be helping people sin.

I think the problem most of you have with a man owning a bar is the preassumed notion that all people who go to a bar hook up and have sex. Affraid to tell you but lots of people do that without booze. Owning a bar is not a sin. Don't put limits on who can openly praise the Lord because that is a burdon Jesus Christ payed more then any of will ever know for.



Love brother ~Justin~ :prayer:

[Linux98]

Every sunday there is a bar owner on the praise and worship team

At my church, worship team is not a leadership role. If a pastor or church leader owned a bar that would be different.

As a member of worship team he is serving the church. Would you be upset if he was cleaning the church bathrooms?..LOL

[Vigil]

If I would condemn a man because of His Job (Assuming it is a legit Employment), then maybe I am not the best example of my faith.

God Bless
Vigil.

[holo]

what would your opinion be if he owned a gun shop?Since nobody else bothered to answer this, here's my answer - it would be the same thing. If I know American culture correctly, a lot of them will say guns aren't the problem, but rather the people who carry them. It does seem logical that if it's a problem that he's selling alcohol, guns would be just as problematic.

Personally, I'd rather be served my beer by a believer than a non-believer, but as it is now, I usually can't have a beer while spending my time with Nice Christians. But that's ok since I prefer the average heathen anyway. Also, no sense in witnessing to somebody who already believes.

I'm tempted to ask what if he sold sugar and hamburgers?

But we can take it further: what if he sold porn magazines?

[FaithAlone]

Noah built a vinyard and got smashed......and then naked....... hehe Noah must have been a party animal.

And then his son "saw him" (who knows how far that should be taken) and was cursed because of it. Noah made mistakes but don't think that just because it's in the Bible that means it's OK. I think this all boils down to the man's heart and intentions. No one here knows that for sure. We're criticizing and defending a man that we don't even know. To condemn him might be wrong because he might be spreading the gospel more efficiently than any of us here, but to argue that he is a saint might be wrong too because for all we know he might be living in sin (by sin I mean constant sin that he's not even wanting to change, not the sins that we try to give over to the Lord). We just don't know the circumstances. I still see more harm than good though. I've heard amazing stories about a group of youth that went to strip clubs (not inside) and circled around the buildings and prayed. Within 24 hours one closed down, and within a month the rest in the city closed down and many people were led to Christ. Be in the world, but not of it is the point. If this bar tender can be in his position and reach the lost then good for him. Just be careful not to use your liberty as a covering for evil.