Do Christians have to go to Church?

[Jeshu]

If been told by that to be a good Christian one has to attent Church -- as this is the (only good) place to worship God is this Bibical or can we worship God anywhere in spirit and truth as Jesus told the Samaritian woman. (John 4:21-24.)

[rural_preacher]

Hebrews 10:25 says,

Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another–and all the more as you see the Day approaching.


And Jesus said that wherever two or three are gathered in His Name, He is in their midst. That is because His Holy Spirit indwells every true believer (I Corinthians 6:19,20).

What is "the church"? Is it a building or a particular location?

It is an "assembly of called out ones". That means when true believers gather together to worship, encourage, edify and evangelize they are "at church".

I believe these gatherings should be organized and orderly. And I also believe that for consistent spiritual growth it is necessary for believers to gather together regularly..."go to church". God designed us to be social creatures. And, as believers, we are designed to encourage one another on to spiritual maturity.

Ephesians 5:15-21

Be very careful, then, how you live–not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.


Paul also told Timothy, "Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction" (II Timothy 4:2).

Doing this would require the regular gathering together of believers.

So, to answer your question...yes, we can worship anywhere, anytime. But we should be sure to regularly gather together for worship because both individual worship and "church" worship are essential for our spiritual maturity.

--

[jangnim]

Well said rural_preacher. Amen.



If been told by that to be a good Christian one has to attent Church -- as this is the (only good) place to worship God is this Bibical or can we worship God anywhere in spirit and truth as Jesus told the Samaritian woman. (John 4:21-24.) Well technically Christians don't HAVE to do anything other than serve their Lord Jesus Christ.

If we are not gathering with our brothers and sisters however, we are not able to sharpen ourselves to the service. Do you have to go to a particular building? No. As rural_preacher said, anyplace where you worship with other beleivers is "Church". I don't agree that it is always orderly, since fellowship can become quite lively. How we worship, so long as it is not done in sin or immorality, is up to each of us. However the Bible gives some pretty good guidlines.

You should listen to rural_preacher, as I've found him to be right on in most every thread he has shared in.

[12volt_man]

If been told by that to be a good Christian one has to attent Church -- as this is the (only good) place to worship God is this Bibical or can we worship God anywhere in spirit and truth as Jesus told the Samaritian woman. (John 4:21-24.)

Have you ever sat in front of a fire and watched it burn?

Notice how brightly all of the logs burn together. They can burn brightly enough to provide light and heat and even cook your food.

Now, have you ever noticed what happens when you take one of those logs out of the fire? This same log, that was burning so brightly just a minute ago, goes out almost immediately.

In the same way, Christians were meant to be with one another.

We can encourage and be encouraged, be held accountable and support one another, study the word, worship corporately together, etc.

Every one of the gifts God gives us is for the edification of the Body, not to be kept to ourselves.

I know I'm going to offend somebody out there who's not going to church, but believe me, this is not a judgement or a condemnation of any kind, because this is something all of us have struggled with at one time or another.

In my nineteen years in the church, I have never met one Christian, who was not a part of a local fellowship of believers, who was growing in Christ or who wasn't involved in some sort of ongoing sin.

To say "a good Christian who doesn't go to church" is like saying a good musician who doesn't practice or a good student who doesn't go to school. They might be able to fake being good for a little while, but sooner or later, the cracks in the foundation are going to show through.

[jangnim]

Have you ever sat in front of a fire and watched it burn?

Notice how brightly all of the logs burn together. They can burn brightly enough to provide light and heat and even cook your food.

Now, have you ever noticed what happens when you take one of those logs out of the fire? This same log, that was burning so brightly just a minute ago, goes out almost immediately.

In the same way, Christians were meant to be with one another.

We can encourage and be encouraged, be held accountable and support one another, study the word, worship corporately together, etc.

Every one of the gifts God gives us is for the edification of the Body, not to be kept to ourselves.

I know I'm going to offend somebody out there who's not going to church, but believe me, this is not a judgement or a condemnation of any kind, because this is something all of us have struggled with at one time or another.

In my nineteen years in the church, I have never met one Christian, who was not a part of a local fellowship of believers, who was growing in Christ or who wasn't involved in some sort of ongoing sin.

To say "a good Christian who doesn't go to church" is like saying a good musician who doesn't practice or a good student who doesn't go to school. They might be able to fake being good for a little while, but sooner or later, the cracks in the foundation are going to show through.

While I agree with the very spirit of what you are saying, I would still maintain that we do not HAVE to go to a specific building at a specific time to worship and serve. You are VERY right to say we need each other, but to carry it to the idea of meeting in a specific building is as wrong as saying you must be a specific denomination to be heard when you pray. It simply isn't true.

It says, "Don't forsake the gathering of yourselves together" but it doesn't say, go to this building or that at this time or that. Real Christian growth takes place in these places, but it can, and has, taken place even in parks, so long as we are fellowshiping one with another. This forum is an engine to that end. What of the home bound or those in the hospitals? Are they then made the weaker because they can't get to 'church'?

Now having said all this I would also be remiss if I didn't say that a worship center is there for the purpose of WORSHIP. If we gather there with a right attitude, worship in such places, even if the fellowship is cold to others who attend, can be a very warming experience. The Holy Spirit moves in these places and during these services, sometimes with the presence of just one person who is on fire for God.

You have to "Love the Lord thy God with all of your heart, mind, and soul. And thy neighbor as thyself." You are commanded by Christ to LOVE, not necessarily to go to a building.

[12volt_man]

While I agree with the very spirit of what you are saying, I would still maintain that we do not HAVE to go to a specific building at a specific time to worship and serve. You are VERY right to say we need each other, but to carry it to the idea of meeting in a specific building is as wrong as saying you must be a specific denomination to be heard when you pray. It simply isn't true.

OK. Can you give me an example of one Christian in the NT who was not a part of a local body of believers?

It says, "Don't forsake the gathering of yourselves together" but it doesn't say, go to this building or that at this time or that. Real Christian growth takes place in these places, but it can, and has, taken place even in parks, so long as we are fellowshiping one with another.

But the problem with those who say, "I don't have to go to church because I can worship God anywhere", is that they don't.

This forum is an engine to that end. What of the home bound or those in the hospitals? Are they then made the weaker because they can't get to 'church'?

Obviously, we're not talking about the homebound or those in the hospital. We're talking about those who choose not to be a part of a local body of believers but, yes, whether it's their own fault or not, those who are unable to be a part of a local fellowship do not have the same opportunities for growth.

This forum, as much as you might enjoy posting here, is not a church.

There's no pastor or leadership, there's no preaching or teaching. There is no accountability.

Now having said all this I would also be remiss if I didn't say that a worship center is there for the purpose of WORSHIP. If we gather there with a right attitude, worship in such places, even if the fellowship is cold to others who attend, can be a very warming experience. The Holy Spirit moves in these places and during these services, sometimes with the presence of just one person who is on fire for God.

But why go to a worship center when you could just go to a park or post on ChristianForums?

You have to "Love the Lord thy God with all of your heart, mind, and soul. And thy neighbor as thyself." You are commanded by Christ to LOVE, not necessarily to go to a building.

Actually, the Bible tells us to "forsake not the assembling or ourselves together".

[jangnim]

I am editing this to tone it down a bit. It is never my goal to hinder others, or to be hurtful. I ask forgiveness if anyone has read this as it was written.



OK. Can you give me an example of one Christian in the NT who was not a part of a local body of believers?


Paul, and Timothy to start with. We have no evidence of them being in any specific fellowship but they enjoyed fellowship with each other. They did attend services where ever they went, but they did not belong to any single one of them.


But why go to a worship center when you could just go to a park or post on ChristianForums?



I won't even entertain the rest of your message with a response. It is obvious we can't agree for whatever reason.

I would preface this response with a statement. Every church has a theology toward which they steer their membership. Theologies are written by people, not by God. Given this fact they are worldly. I prefer to read scripture, and study ancient history to come up with what scripture actually says, rather than allowing giants like Matthew Henry or Calvin to indoctrinate me. Don't get me wrong, their words are very often helpful. This being the case I have been at odds with my fellow believers here on CF before. I apologize in advance to you if anything offends you but this is how I see things.

If I go to a park and worship with my fellow believers it is in fact church to me. I don't see anyplace where scripture tells us we have to go to a worship center, in fact the early churches were pretty much homes of people. In a time in history when your very life was threatened to even meet, it is highly unlikely that specific buildings existed.

Personally I believe that organized churches are fine and dandy, but I don't think that scripture tells us we must assemble in a specific place. It seems quite foolish to me to believe otherwise, based on the ancient history of the church. Theologically speaking, all theologies of all denominations say we must attend church. Yet I see no scriptural evidence of any command like this.

At no point in my previous statements did I even allude to leadership or accountability, as this too has nothing to do with the choice to attend a worship center or to meet as bretheren in the park. It becomes obvious that worship and fellowship means different things to you than to me. I shouldn't be accountable to men but to God. Yes I respect those in authority, but to make myself accountable to them is to give them a higher place. I will follow their rules so long as they don't conflict with God's rules. I should be accountable to the Holy Spirit in the hearts of all of the bretheren, and so I should give everyone equal regard and strive not to ever injure them.

As a side note, I don't see a separate set of rules in scripture for the shut ins and another for the rest of us either. I guess the question is: "What limits do we place on God that would force us to alter the rules?" Personally I don't limit Him in any way so His rules remain static.

In answer to your question, I would have to repeat the question itself. Why go to a worship center? If I attend there they will ask me for my money to help pay the expenses of the church and call it my "tithes and offerings". If I go to the park for worship, and exercise my religious freedom, it costs me nothing and it also puts God out there where the lost can be drawn. My whole tithe can then go to the work of God through giving to the poor and those in need or even to a mission. The organized church is real big on quoting the "bring your tithes into the storehouse" part but they are also very reluctant to offer anything from that storehouse to help those in need. Sadly in America the church has become a corporation, and is a worldly institution. Churches have expenses and depend upon the parishoners to pay those bills.

I would add that I didn't say I do not go to church, because I do, and am very involved in my it. But I must say I am critical of the way "churches" conduct themselves before a lost world. This group hates that one and that denomination is too liberal so all who attend it are likely going to hell. Shame on us all.

To me church is a place where I can learn of my Savior, fellowship and share in the heart of Christ. By this definition yes, CF IS CHURCH. You are welcome to have a different opinion however.

For me, every opportunity I can have to fellowship with my bretheren, be it here, or at the store, or in my office, or where ever, is church because when I fellowship, I share in the love of Christ. (By fellowship, by the way, I do not mean eating stale cookies and drinking bad punch while we stand around after a service feeling somewhat uncomfortable, I am talking about friendship that goes to the point of interpersonal accountability not to a church, but to my savior who resides in my bretheren). If we want to be Christian, we need to stop being so religiously addicted to the eddicts of a theology, and begin to read the Word, and allow Jesus to reveal Himself to us in it. You might get that from attending a church, but you will ALWAYS get it when you are surrounded by those who share your love for Jesus, be it in a church or elsewhere.

All of this being said, and to simply restate, No you do not have to go to the church building, but yes you do need to be with your brothers and sisters in Christ.


Actually, the Bible tells us to "forsake not the assembling or ourselves together".

Thanks for the correction but again I would suppose this has to do with Bible version and not really the essence of what was said.

[12volt_man]

Paul, and Timothy to start with. We have no evidence of them being in any specific fellowship but they enjoyed fellowship with each other. They did attend services where ever they went, but they did not belong to any single one of them.

The difference of course, is that they were missionaries on behalf of the church.

I won't even entertain the rest of your message with a response. It is obvious we can't agree for whatever reason.

Good cop out.

I would preface this response with a statement. Every church has a theology toward which they steer their membership. Theologies are written by people, not by God. Given this fact they are worldly.

I go to a rather conservative baptist church. What do you believe that we believe that's not taught in scripture?

If I go to a park and worship with my fellow believers it is in fact church to me. I don't see anyplace where scripture tells us we have to go to a worship center, in fact the early churches were pretty much homes of people. In a time in history when your very life was threatened to even meet, it is highly unlikely that specific buildings existed.

So, when you go to a park, who is the pastor? Who are the teachers? What accountabiliy do you have? What opportunity do you have to excercise your gifts?

No one is talking about a building, we're talking about a body.

Theologically speaking, all theologies of all denominations say we must attend church. Yet I see no scriptural evidence of any command like this.

"Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together, as is the custom of some".

At no point in my previous statements did I even allude to leadership or accountability, as this too has nothing to do with the choice to attend a worship center or to meet as bretheren in the park.

If the Bible says that these things should be present, then I think it's up to you to show how they are present by going to the park.

It becomes obvious that worship and fellowship means different things to you than to me. I shouldn't be accountable to men but to God.

So then, when the Bible says "submit yourselves one to another", you just skip over that part?

As a side note, I don't see a separate set of rules in scripture for the shut ins and another for the rest of us either.

I don't recall anyone saying that there were.

If I attend there they will ask me for my money to help pay the expenses of the church and call it my "tithes and offerings". If I go to the park for worship, and exercise my religious freedom, it costs me nothing and it also puts God out there where the lost can be drawn. My whole tithe can then go to the work of God through giving to the poor and those in need or even to a mission.

OK. So who do you tithe to when you go to the park?

The organized church is real big on quoting the "bring your tithes into the storehouse" part but they are also very reluctant to offer anything from that storehouse to help those in need.

Actually, I've shared many times here that my church operates three missions in cooperation with other churches.

I would add that I didn't say I do not go to church, because I do, and am very involved in my it.

Really? What church do you go to?

To me church is a place where I can learn of my Savior, fellowship and share in the heart of Christ. By this definition yes, CF IS CHURCH. You are welcome to have a different opinion however.

I've already shared my opinion of what the church is, and I believe that mine is backed up by scripture, whereas, yours is not.

You might get that from attending a church, but you will ALWAYS get it when you are surrounded by those who share your love for Jesus, be it in a church or elsewhere.

So then, why don't people who won't be a part of a local body of believers "get it"?

[jangnim]

The difference of course, is that they were missionaries on behalf of the church.

Admittedly, but they didn't get to go to church every Sunday either. It isn't like they had a bus to ride. In point of fact the Christians in the rural country-side surrounding Jerusalem were not local enough to attend a fellowship all of the time. It would be physically impossible.





Good cop out.

Actually I was simply attempting to avoid a more major confrontation with you. I see however that you seem to wish otherwise.


I go to a rather conservative baptist church. What do you believe that we believe that's not taught in scripture?

It isn't what is or is not supported by scripture. Every Christian theology has support of scripture. It is simply a way to explain who God is in the denomination/church. For me to sit here and judge your theology is not in any way my goal.



So, when you go to a park, who is the pastor?
Why must there be one all of the time? Can't we simply fellowship sometimes without a pastor? A pastor is a guide, not a cop.

Who are the teachers?
The Holy Spirit and each other. (Iron sharpens iron) What accountabiliy do you have?
The highest accountability of all. The accountability of love for one another, as Jesus loves us. Accountability to the Holy Spirit. Really regarding accountability I would simply say, "GET REAL" there is absolutely zero accountability to the church today. If a member gets into trouble in one they can go to another or simply quit all together. Accountability went out the door with closeness and love, and real fellowship, where you are best friends with the people in your felloship. The most any local assembly can do is be angry.
What opportunity do you have to excercise your gifts?



Actually we share together. Not just on Sunday and Wednesday either. A typical time of fellowship might be, "gee I was studying this in scripture and the Lord showed me that..." Do you think that church was other than this in 34 AD? And not only that but the word they read, if they could read, was pretty much the Old Testament. They didn't have the new one.


No one is talking about a building, we're talking about a body.
Okay. It seems to me that the costs of the building are quite involved here. This is why people are guilted into attending the church. It sure isn't for fellowship in todays church. We normally hardly know the person next to us, at least not well. And what passes for fellowship, I won't even start on that.




"Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together, as is the custom of some".

Does not say go to church. Historically it says this to keep the people growing together in love not a method to make them go to a building. It doesn't say go and sit with the pastor. It doesn't say we are even required to attend a specific congregation as we know it today. It says, at least to me, F_E_L_L_O_W_S_H_I_P.(see how they love one another) {not feeling much of that in this thread tonight either}



If the Bible says that these things should be present, then I think it's up to you to show how they are present by going to the park.

What things exactly are you talking about?:scratch: A pastor? of course they are not present. The gifts of the spirit? Oh may it never be that I don't use them everywhere I go. My giving? I already explained this elsewhere.

So then, when the Bible says "submit yourselves one to another", you just skip over that part?
I note you left that out that part of my previous answer. Submission is an act of love. Of course I don't skip over it, I am almost offended that you would suggest this. I do however find your tone to be quite hostile. It seems you are riled for some reason and honestly I simply offered a decenting opinion. It ain't the end of the world dude.




I don't recall anyone saying that there were.

Basically you said that we are not talking about shut-ins etc...




OK. So who do you tithe to when you go to the park?

Actually I give to the local mission, to folks in need, food bank, red cross, goodwill, and yes even to a denominational church.



Actually, I've shared many times here that my church operates three missions in cooperation with other churches.
Wonderful, in my experience yours is in the minority. All too often a person in need is required to almost give their first born to get any help.




Really? What church do you go to?



Actually that is pretty obvious at the heading of every one of my posts.


I've already shared my opinion of what the church is, and I believe that mine is backed up by scripture, whereas, yours is not.

Again every church has a theology, and every one of them thinks they are right. If they didn't, they would change it. I would sincerely hope you believe what your church says is right to be true. If not you are in deep trouble. Regarding the support of scripture, if related with known history mine too can be seen as correct and supported by scripture.



So then, why don't people who won't be a part of a local body of believers "get it"?

Many, because of hostile treatment in the body of believers. Many more because they do not know God at all. Most because they have absolutely no idea what they really believe. Others because the cares of this world choke them. Others because they simply are unable to accept the rule of a church and are tired of church hopping. Finally, because Christians are people and people have there limits on exactly what they can take. We as Christians are called not to dish out more hostility, but rather to L_O_V_E one another. Unfortunately hypocracy didn't die out with the Pharasees, it is alive and well in every local church. Unbelievers see it, they reason to themselves that it is contrary to what "Christians" do, and so church must be a bunch of junk.

We as a church are so hung up on saving souls sometimes we forget that a little honey would attract much better than all of the vinegar we seem to have in surplus. ..I would add if the honey is in short supply we better get on our knees and get filled with the sweet stuff of heaven.

Honestly, I am not looking to fight it out with you here. It seems hardly worth it when you are obviously threatened or upset by my post. I am sincerely sorry if I offended you in any way. Our Lord is over us both, and we need to seek Him in our answers. Truly friend I bear you no ill, I am not certain that is true of you, I can only hope it is.

[12volt_man]

OK. Let's try a new tack.

Why do you think that God put an ecclesiastical order in place, ordained men to serve in a local body of believers, and has stated that the purpose of the gifts He gives are for the edification of the body?

Why do you think Jesus would have established the church, if we can just go to the park?

[Jeshu]

If we should go to a place of worship then what does it mean to worship the Father in spirit and truth? John 4:23-24.

[jangnim]

If we should go to a place of worship then what does it mean to worship the Father in spirit and truth? John 4:23-24.Read my response to 12volt_man. I think Spirit and truth will become evident.

OK. Let's try a new tack.

Why do you think that God put an ecclesiastical order in place, ordained men to serve in a local body of believers, and has stated that the purpose of the gifts He gives are for the edification of the body?

Why do you think Jesus would have established the church, if we can just go to the park?

Okay we got a little heated last time. I am certain that you won't like my answers here either but I shall endeavor to answer.

Last question first. Christ established the church, not any denomination or a theology. He did that in the hearts of men first, and as a result in the world. It is in the hearts of believers that we find the true church. Do you not agree?

Now for the order. Before we had a canon we had only OT as a guide and that had been perverted by the Pharasees. Just as in Judges, God raised up an order to serve as a guide until the New Testament was made. It was obvious that the ancient world was a pollutant to the infant church, so these men filled in the gap. Each gift served, and still serves a specific purpose to protect the body of believers. However I would maintain that those roles have been perverted over the centuries in Satans plan to debunk the validity of the church. He uses worldly means to hinder the growth of the one true church, the hearts of men. No church/denomination is free of this perversion since we are still in the world, Satans domain. It says in Ecclesiastees that only one man in a thousand is righteous (my paraphrase), also in Matthew that the weeds and wheats are together in the fields, so it stands to reason that not all who attend church are right with God. Being human even pastors can be in this condition. We must learn to trust the heart of Christ over and above the words of a pastor, or anyone else.

The real church is in the hearts of men. The Holy Spirit is our teacher and protector, but during the precanon time, God protected the new church from perversion by the guidance of these Holy men who guided us. I personally think that the endless theologies are also an attempt by Satan to decieve us, to make us focus on ANYTHING but the love of Christ which unites us. It honestly is unimportant whether we think Christ will return pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib. It is unimportant whether the wine becomes the blood or not. It is unimportant to focus on anything but our King, and His mission of love given to us. The Bible serves as our guide and the Holy Spirit our teacher in all of this. We need not desire to know the truths that so many men have written about so long as we know this absolute truth, Christ started and maintains the body of believers in the hearts of those who believe.

Personally I think we've got it all wrong in how things have "evolved" with the endless theologies, denominations, and arguments. If we simply love, as is our only real charge, the theology takes care of itself because the church becomes an amalgum of the hearts of love together. It is much less OSAS, and much more a question of how best to celebrate the salvation so dearly paid for. It is much less an indoctrination of the new believer and much more the mutual love shared in the body of believers. It is much less a question of pre-trib, post-trib or mid-trib after we stand on love and much more a question of "How best can I help my brother?" or "How best can I present our Lords love to this unbeliever?" It becomes much less a question of "should I attend church" and much more a question of "how can I best use this time to share in the love of Christ." Don't you see? It is all about the heart and not about the church/denomination. Moreover, it then becomes a question of opportunity much more than a question of attendance. When we make it a rule to go to church, it is now not a matter of the heart, but an outward sign. You are right to say "We must attend church" but it should not ever be a demand, but rather a deep abiding desire. It should not be the church that keeps you accountable, but the Spirit within you. It should not be fear that motivates attendance, but love, which casts out ALL fear.

Now all of that being said, everyplace I go is church, because my Lord is there with me. He teaches me. He leads me to others. He guides my heart and so my life. Church services become an opportunity of celebration, every meal becomes communion, and every encounter a gift from God. My daily life in Christ is an adventure of love. If my heart is right, I won't HAVE to attend church, I will LOVE to go. It is simply not important which church anymore, because I know that God has a remnant in every real church. Once we toss the theologies out, and allow the Spirit and the Word to guide us, we won't ever again have a need to hear a boring sermon because such things will cease to exist even the most liberal sermon is now filled with Christs truth. Every sermon, every encounter, and even every action is the action of the Living Christ on the behalf of the believers. Those hymns even the boring hymns become alive with love. The worldly will hold little sparkle to me, I won't have anything to do with it not out of fear of retribution from the church/denomination, but because next to the love of Christ, it is simply garbage. Next to the knowledge of Christ all I own is but a temporary ownership of something quite inferior to what is ahead.

I note that you recognize the author and finisher of our faith, oddly He never had a building to maintain. He was very plainly into the hearts of men. He was preparing the way for the Holy Spirit to enter the hearts of believers, giving us the boldness to stand forth against a world that simply hated Him and now hates us. He called the Holy men to fill the gap and has continually called out people like Scofield, Luther, Wesley, Bunyan, Sunday, and Graham. These men began movements of love which over time disintegrated into a recipe to God, commonly called theology.

I'll reiterate, DON'T YOU SEE? If we allow the Spirit to teach us in His way, and we simply OBEY THE HEART OF LOVE, the walls of denominationalism crumble, and the only thing that matters is Christ in the hearts of us all. When that happens everyplace becomes church, every encounter a blessing from God, and everything we do worship. That dearest brother is church, that is the adventure of His Holy love.

[12volt_man]

Read my response to 12volt_man. I think Spirit and truth will become evident.

So then, why can't we worship in spirit and in truth by being a part of a local body of believers?

Last question first. Christ established the church, not any denomination or a theology. He did that in the hearts of men first, and as a result in the world. It is in the hearts of believers that we find the true church. Do you not agree?

No, I don't. I don't believe that this is found in scripture and I believe that it directly contradicts the examples found in Acts and in Paul's epistles.

Now for the order. Before we had a canon we had only OT as a guide and that had been perverted by the Pharasees. Just as in Judges, God raised up an order to serve as a guide until the New Testament was made.

The problem is that, even in the OT, God's people are called to gather together.

There's a lot of Kum Buy Yah in your post, but not much substance.

[jangnim]

I'm grieved a bit by my lack of ability to help you thouroughly comprehend my thoughts. My deepest desire is that you begin to know that I agree that we should attend church, but to require it is wrong. Matt 28 says "Go" and not sit and wait for them to come to you. We should worship everywhere and not just in church.

[12volt_man 3rd April 2005 03:36 PM]Have you ever sat in front of a fire and watched it burn?

Notice how brightly all of the logs burn together. They can burn brightly enough to provide light and heat and even cook your food.

Now, have you ever noticed what happens when you take one of those logs out of the fire?

This same log, that was burning so brightly just a minute ago, goes out almost immediately.

In the same way, Christians were meant to be with one another.

We can encourage and be encouraged, be held accountable and support one another, study the word, worship corporately together, etc.

Every one of the gifts God gives us is for the edification of the Body, not to be kept to ourselves.

I know I'm going to offend somebody out there who's not going to church, but believe me, this is not a judgement or a condemnation of any kind, because this is something all of us have struggled with at one time or another.

In my nineteen years in the church, I have never met one Christian, who was not a part of a local fellowship of believers, who was growing in Christ or who wasn't involved in some sort of ongoing sin.

To say "a good Christian who doesn't go to church" is like saying a good musician who doesn't practice or a good student who doesn't go to school. They might be able to fake being good for a little while, but sooner or later, the cracks in the foundation are going to show through.
[End Quote]


I am astounded that we have come from this to where we are, so lets back up a bit.

You said:In the same way, Christians were meant to be with one another.

On this we totally agree.

You said: We can encourage and be encouraged, be held accountable and support one another, study the word, worship corporately together, etc.

To which I also offer total agreement. I would however maintain that any time we are together we are admonished to do this. Oddly this is where our opinions began to differ.

I said,"While I agree with the very spirit of what you are saying, I would still maintain that we do not HAVE to go to a specific building at a specific time to worship and serve. You are VERY right to say we need each other, but to carry it to the idea of meeting in a specific building is as wrong as saying you must be a specific denomination to be heard when you pray. It simply isn't true."

Now if at this point you would tell me that you disagree with this entire paragraph, I would say we have to stop and take stock of what we are saying. I agree that church is important, but to demand that a person attend if their heart is not in it is making it a rule. That goes directly against the gospel of Christ which removed the sting of the law according to (Heb 7). It is legalism plain and simple.

In Acts:16:27 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them. Act 16:26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.

This says we can worship even in a prison cell, and God will be praised. It further shows what faith in God, when joined with a brother or sister, can do in very short order.

You further said, "Every one of the gifts God gives us is for the edification of the Body, not to be kept to ourselves."

Oh my but do I agree with this, I can't agree more. It is so important to exercise every gift God has given us. But why would God, who wants the church to expand and grow only limit the use of our gifts to the church service? If in fact we are called to "Go ye therefore into the world..." why not let us use the gifts where we are. Didn't Christ Himself always meet people where they were? I Cor 12 tells us that the gifts are "for the profit of all" not just people who go to church.

In response to your comment about a "Good Christian who doesn't go to church" I would honestly have to point out that Jesus said, "Why do you call me good? There is none good but the Father" so how could I ever say I am good if He is the guideline by which I make such determination? Now it is grievable not to be with the bretheren, since from that fellowship we draw strength and unity. If I am prevented from enjoining myself to the bretheren, according to your statements, I will simply fizzle out. While my glow may falter it most certainly won't go out. The burning of the Spirit grows much deeper than that.


You later said(5 Apr), "No one is talking about a building, we're talking about a body."

I would agree with this we are talking about the body of believers. Christ is the head of the church, and He alone should rule it. In reality to demand that a person go to a specific place in todays world you are saying, "go to this specific building." All I am saying is that we are, by its very inception, a fluid church. We can and should worship everywhere and not just in a church building.

In this post you said (6 Apr), "So then, why can't we worship in spirit and in truth by being a part of a local body of believers?"

I never said they can't. I said they are not limited to a local body of believers. They can worship with any Christian anywhere at any time they are together, because the Spirit of Christ, that heart of Christ, is in them both. I Cor 6:19-20.



Then you said (6 Apr),"No, I don't. I don't believe that this is found in scripture and I believe that it directly contradicts the examples found in Acts and in Paul's epistles." in response to me saying, "Christ established the church, not any denomination or a theology. He did that in the hearts of men first, and as a result in the world. It is in the hearts of believers that we find the true church. Do you not agree?"

This being the case I would ask you to prove in scripture that what I am saying is wrong. Acts speaks of a dynamic, exploding church. If you want to see people who worshiped everywhere, read it again with these thoughts in mind: they are not Americans, they have no church buildings, and their very lives are under threat of death for worshiping. Did that stop them? No way. With the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit as their guide, they literally conquered the Roman empire. Rome couldn't kill them, it just made them stronger. They couldn't bribe them, they wanted nothing of the world. The whole theme of the New Testament is the Love of God. I sit in disbelief that you are unable to comprehend the depth of my previous post, dismissing it as fluff.

I invite you to please disprove, directly from scripture, each and every sentence in this quote.
The real church is in the hearts of men. The Holy Spirit is our teacher and protector, but during the precanon time, God protected the new church from perversion by the guidance of these Holy men who guided us. I personally think that the endless theologies are also an attempt by Satan to decieve us, to make us focus on ANYTHING but the love of Christ which unites us. It honestly is unimportant whether we think Christ will return pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib. It is unimportant whether the wine becomes the blood or not. It is unimportant to focus on anything but our King, and His mission of love given to us. The Bible serves as our guide and the Holy Spirit our teacher in all of this. We need not desire to know the truths that so many men have written about so long as we know this absolute truth, Christ started and maintains the body of believers in the hearts of those who believe.

Personally I think we've got it all wrong in how things have "evolved" with the endless theologies, denominations, and arguments. If we simply love, as is our only real charge, the theology takes care of itself because the church becomes an amalgum of the hearts of love together. It is much less OSAS, and much more a question of how best to celebrate the salvation so dearly paid for. It is much less an indoctrination of the new believer and much more the mutual love shared in the body of believers. It is much less a question of pre-trib, post-trib or mid-trib after we stand on love and much more a question of "How best can I help my brother?" or "How best can I present our Lords love to this unbeliever?" It becomes much less a question of "should I attend church" and much more a question of "how can I best use this time to share in the love of Christ." Don't you see? It is all about the heart and not about the church/denomination. Moreover, it then becomes a question of opportunity much more than a question of attendance. When we make it a rule to go to church, it is now not a matter of the heart, but an outward sign. You are right to say "We must attend church" but it should not ever be a demand, but rather a deep abiding desire.
It should not be the church that keeps you accountable, but the Spirit within you. It should not be fear that motivates attendance, but love, which casts out ALL fear.

Now all of that being said, everyplace I go is church, because my Lord is there with me. He teaches me. He leads me to others. He guides my heart and so my life. Church services become an opportunity of celebration, every meal becomes communion, and every encounter a gift from God. My daily life in Christ is an adventure of love. If my heart is right, I won't HAVE to attend church, I will LOVE to go. It is simply not important which church anymore, because I know that God has a remnant in every real church. Once we toss the theologies out, and allow the Spirit and the Word to guide us, we won't ever again have a need to hear a boring sermon because such things will cease to exist even the most liberal sermon is now filled with Christs truth. Every sermon, every encounter, and even every action is the action of the Living Christ on the behalf of the believers. Those hymns even the boring hymns become alive with love. The worldly will hold little sparkle to me, I won't have anything to do with it not out of fear of retribution from the church/denomination, but because next to the love of Christ, it is simply garbage. Next to the knowledge of Christ all I own is but a temporary ownership of something quite inferior to what is ahead.

... oddly He never had a building to maintain. He was very plainly into the hearts of men.
He was preparing the way for the Holy Spirit to enter the hearts of believers, giving us the boldness to stand forth against a world that simply hated Him and now hates us. He called the Holy men to fill the gap and has continually called out people like Scofield, Luther, Wesley, Bunyan, Sunday, and Graham. These men began movements of love which over time disintegrated into a recipe to God, commonly called theology.

I'll reiterate, DON'T YOU SEE? If we allow the Spirit to teach us in His way, and we simply OBEY THE HEART OF LOVE, the walls of denominationalism crumble, and the only thing that matters is Christ in the hearts of us all. When that happens everyplace becomes church, every encounter a blessing from God, and everything we do worship. That dearest brother is church, that is the adventure of His Holy love.
(End Quote)

You Said (Apr 6) The problem is that, even in the OT, God's people are called to gather together.(End Quote)

You missed the whole point here. The Pharisees had altered the meaning of the OT in such a way as to enslave the people of Christ's day. In point of fact, yes, they were commanded to meet together at the temple to offer their sacrifices. In the law there was also given allowance for the people who couldn't make it to the festivals.

You said (Apr 6) There's a lot of Kum Buy Yah in your post, but not much substance.(End Quote)

Glad you noticed. It is all about the "Kum Buy Ya" as you put it. It is all about the adventure of Christ. It is all about having His Spirit in us. It is all about the hope of Christ shared by every Christian everywhere. The Negroes who sang this spiritual in the fields of the south of pre-civil war America sang it as a prayer. They said "Come By Here... Oh Lord, Come By Here." Clearly a song of prayer to a God who feels the suffering of these His people. That too sounds like they worshiped in the fields, and not necessarily in some building or as some denomination.

1 John 3:13-15 says:
1Jo 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

It is absolutely about the love or "Kum Buy Yah". Without it the admonition of James to "Confess your faults one to another" is an impossible command.

[12volt_man]

..

[Edouard]

Wow! this is an interesting and intriguing conversation. I find fascinating you all did not use a whole lot of scripture to back your points, a verse here or there. let's start from the top.

Worship:

I Corinthians 12 (please read)
Discusses the different roles of members of the body of Christ!

I Corinthians 13 (interesting this chapter should follow)

History lesson: the church of corinth had many problems and divisions among them.
The early churches had many theological questions, one of the biggest being circumcision: jew vs. gentile.(romans addresses this issue).

I Corithians 14 spritual gifts and tongues. how to use them

Question: When Christ came, he came to establish himself as the Messiah, and what was his secondary purpose, to establish the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth!

This may be Satan's domain, but God created us and everything in it!

Now let us move on: Leadership and "Shut-ins"

Leadership is laid out in I timothy chapter 3. (most fundamentalist churches follow this).

Interesting point I timothy II has some instructions on worship.

I timothy 5 discuss how we are to be with our Elders, Widows and yes Slaves.


End of the Wolrd two refferences for you:
Matthew chapter 24 & I thessalonians 4:13-18

Comments:

Scripture does tell us that where two or more gather in my name, there I am with them also. Let's look at history - Paul in prison, praying to God, and what happened the jail gates opened. interesting? To further the Kingdom of God!

In the first century, christians began to be persecuted. they were scattered, they would meet in houses to worship. "House Churches"

I believe you may worhip God all day, in everything you do; however, we need to be connected to a body! You can't have one without the other! If there are only three that meet every week, whenever and wherever - what is you purpose? what is your goal? To worship God, or to serve and invite and bring others to Christ?? We worship God in many different ways, through the use of our spiritual gifts, and not all of us have the same gift. To come together as two or three to worship and be accountable to God is one thing, but to say that is all I need, I beg to differ.

So to translate you both are correct in what you are saying, but not neccessarily in the manner in which you communicated to one another.

Testimony:

A very good friend of mine, native american - hated Christians. He lived with
a medicine woman that kept telling him day in and out that they are not all bad.
One night being a very spiritual person that he was and enjoying nature, he went for a walk on the beach at sunset, and encountered a group of christians singing and playing guitar on the beach.. how the conversation went, I don't know. How my friend ended up - one dedicated lover of God. So you see, how we worship and where we worship sometimes, can lead to greater things that we may never see. Remember in the gospels Christ told us that we would do even greater things after he has left us.

Conclusion:

How to worship, where to worship?

well history says with fellow believers, where did they worship in there houses.
there goal to bring brothers and sisters to Christ!

To be accountable to one another is great! but we also, must be connected to the Body of Believers around us.

If you would like more info on churches, I highly reccomend that you read the first two chapters of Revelation and study them closely.

Hindsight comment:

It is true that we are warned, that there are wolves among us in sheeps clothing.
There are false doctrines and teachers among us. May God strengthen us to be strong and humble, and only boast in God's love. Does this mean we ignore the instructions given to us about the church and worship.. i think not! We were also warned about false teachers and prophets! There is nothing new in today's world that did not exist 1 year later after Christ died. There are different theologies out there that some are practiced and others are not, that came into existend within the first century A.D. - that is why the apostles were so forward in there letters on behavior among believers!

Edouard
May God give you strength, knowledge and wisdom and love! :)
May he bless you and your house!

[jangnim]

Scripture does tell us that where two or more gather in my name, there I am with them also. Let's look at history - Paul in prison, praying to God, and what happened the jail gates opened. interesting? To further the Kingdom of God!


I agree.
In the first century, christians began to be persecuted. they were scattered, they would meet in houses to worship. "House Churches"
Here too I would agree.
I believe you may worhip God all day, in everything you do; however, we need to be connected to a body!
Right. The question is your definition of a body.
You can't have one without the other! If there are only three that meet every week, whenever and wherever - what is you purpose?
Planely worship alone what is your goal?
To spend time basking in service to our Lord. To worship God, or to serve and invite and bring others to Christ??
Always both. We worship God in many different ways, through the use of our spiritual gifts, and not all of us have the same gift.Actually I feel that the Holy Spirit awakens every gift at the time it is needed within every believer. That is to say, God may pick any believer at any time to manifest any of His gifts. To come together as two or three to worship and be accountable to God is one thing, but to say that is all I need, I beg to differ.
You are quite welcome to differ. Honestly, from my own life experiences I can say with confidence that what I believe is true. The scriptures are our guide to how the church should be. While I understand the need for Pastors/Teachers, they need no be present if I choose to worship with friends in a place other than a worship center.

My issues with this thread are not that I disagree with my estemed brother on EVERY point, but simply that anytime we are together in service to Christ we are in fact worshiping (greek word means 'serving') I do believe we should be members of an assemply of believers. I agree we need pastors/teachers.

So to translate you both are correct in what you are saying, but not neccessarily in the manner in which you communicated to one another.
A very safe statement. I don't think either of us communicated exactly what we in our heart of hearts desired to.


Testimony:

A very good friend of mine, native american - hated Christians. He lived with
a medicine woman that kept telling him day in and out that they are not all bad.
One night being a very spiritual person that he was and enjoying nature, he went for a walk on the beach at sunset, and encountered a group of christians singing and playing guitar on the beach.. how the conversation went, I don't know. How my friend ended up - one dedicated lover of God. So you see, how we worship and where we worship sometimes, can lead to greater things that we may never see. Remember in the gospels Christ told us that we would do even greater things after he has left us.

Conclusion:

How to worship, where to worship?

well history says with fellow believers, where did they worship in there houses.
there goal to bring brothers and sisters to Christ!

To be accountable to one another is great! but we also, must be connected to the Body of Believers around us.

I would call this accountability to the Holy Spirit. Without the Spirit, we can't be connected to the body. With Him in us, we can be connected, but might choose other means of worship at any given time, depending upon the curcumstances. The whole reason we are still here on earth is to Go into the world and preach the gospel.

If you would like more info on churches, I highly reccomend that you read the first two chapters of Revelation and study them closely.
Funny you should say this, as it is exactly what I am currently studying again.

Hindsight comment:

It is true that we are warned, that there are wolves among us in sheeps clothing.
There are false doctrines and teachers among us. May God strengthen us to be strong and humble, and only boast in God's love. Does this mean we ignore the instructions given to us about the church and worship.. i think not! We were also warned about false teachers and prophets! There is nothing new in today's world that did not exist 1 year later after Christ died. There are different theologies out there that some are practiced and others are not, that came into existend within the first century A.D. - that is why the apostles were so forward in there letters on behavior among believers!
This statement in itself is one of the main reasons for division in the church. The many theologies tend to divide. Scripture says that if we confess the name of the Lord Jesus Christ we will be saved. While I find little common ground with some of our more liberal bretheren, they too are confessing Christ. If they do not deny the virgin birth, and they claim the blood as the sacrifice for their sins, and if they state the diety of Christ, they are pretty much bretheren. We should fellowship with them too.


Edouard
May God give you strength, knowledge and wisdom and love! :)
May he bless you and your house!

Thanks and as they say "Back at ya bro!"

[alabaster jar]

Jesus went to Temple; so I go to church. I do hear some people argue that you don't need to go, you can stay at home and read the bible or commune with nature, but I think you do need fellowship, as has been stated I think by everyone here. Fellowship doesn't necessarily have to be a formal church service, but I don't know where the line exactly is. A park could be-- if the 'body' of people are worshipping, praying, etc. but if they are all Christian and swinging on the swings--I don't know if I'd call that true fellowship. I think you have to be putting something into it. At the same time, you might attend a church and just be going through the motions and doing it as a social gesture and that would not be truly 'attending' to my way of thinking.

[jangnim]

Jesus went to Temple; so I go to church. I do hear some people argue that you don't need to go, you can stay at home and read the bible or commune with nature, but I think you do need fellowship, as has been stated I think by everyone here. Fellowship doesn't necessarily have to be a formal church service, but I don't know where the line exactly is. A park could be-- if the 'body' of people are worshipping, praying, etc. but if they are all Christian and swinging on the swings--I don't know if I'd call that true fellowship. I think you have to be putting something into it. At the same time, you might attend a church and just be going through the motions and doing it as a social gesture and that would not be truly 'attending' to my way of thinking.

Well said. It is our attitude and actions and not the place.

[Shane Roach]

This statement in itself is one of the main reasons for division in the church. The many theologies tend to divide. Scripture says that if we confess the name of the Lord Jesus Christ we will be saved. While I find little common ground with some of our more liberal bretheren, they too are confessing Christ. If they do not deny the virgin birth, and they claim the blood as the sacrifice for their sins, and if they state the diety of Christ, they are pretty much bretheren. We should fellowship with them too.




We are actually instructed directly not even to eat with, even not even to bid "God speed", to certain folk who teach or behave in specific ways, and these are not limited to matters such as confessing Christ or believing in the virgin birth. In this we are not really given a choice.

The book of 2 John serves as an easy to remember example.

[jangnim]

We are actually instructed directly not even to eat with, even not even to bid "God speed", to certain folk who teach or behave in specific ways, and these are not limited to matters such as confessing Christ or believing in the virgin birth. In this we are not really given a choice.

The book of 2 John serves as an easy to remember example.

A different gospel is not the same as a doctrinal disagreement. The gospel is, in short, simply that Jesus died, was raised, and all of this for our sins. By this gospel, and by faith from the Holy Spirit we are saved. This is the gospel message in a nutshell.

A doctrine such as veneration of saints is not exclusionary. It is error, but we are instructed to avoid those who teach a different gospel. However a doctrine such as the denial of the resurection, or denial of virgin birth, and the rest of the true gospel is not open for discussion. My point is that we can allow for fellowship with anyone who believes the true gospel, that by grace we are saved through faith in Jesus Christ. Otherwise we can't fellowship at all because we are absolutely unsure of any other persons salvation really.

[Shane Roach]

A different gospel is not the same as a doctrinal disagreement. The gospel is, in short, simply that Jesus died, was raised, and all of this for our sins. By this gospel, and by faith from the Holy Spirit we are saved. This is the gospel message in a nutshell.

A doctrine such as veneration of saints is not exclusionary. It is error, but we are instructed to avoid those who teach a different gospel. However a doctrine such as the denial of the resurection, or denial of virgin birth, and the rest of the true gospel is not open for discussion. My point is that we can allow for fellowship with anyone who believes the true gospel, that by grace we are saved through faith in Jesus Christ. Otherwise we can't fellowship at all because we are absolutely unsure of any other persons salvation really.

Hmmm, I agree so far, but there are as I said also references to behavior. Thoughts?

[jangnim]

Hmmm, I agree so far, but there are as I said also references to behavior. Thoughts?

If people are living in blaitant(SP?) sin we are instructed to try to reason with them. Upon failure of that, the church elder board is called to reason with them. Failing that, we are told not to have anything to do with them. Having been on the wrong end of this situation, (Not due to sin but to bad church government) I can tell you that this process should be a longsuffering one.

When issues of behavior occur, we are called to first be patient, second to confront the issues. None of us is perfect least of all me.

[Shane Roach]

If people are living in blaitant(SP?) sin we are instructed to try to reason with them. Upon failure of that, the church elder board is called to reason with them. Failing that, we are told not to have anything to do with them. Having been on the wrong end of this situation, (Not due to sin but to bad church government) I can tell you that this process should be a longsuffering one.

When issues of behavior occur, we are called to first be patient, second to confront the issues. None of us is perfect least of all me.

That's how I understand it as well. I'd add that if at any point even after being ousted a person repents, I believe it is described that they be allowed to return, and that no matter how many times. But a person who is rebelling against good order and/or good doctrine nevertheless is something to be watched and to be carefull about.


I've never actually been ousted but I was quite literally framed by the pastor set to be in charge of the Wesley Foundation on my campus, so I can understand your concern about abuse of power. Due to the fact that people knew me, and that there was no way I could be responsible for what I was accused of, nothing happened. But it scared me enough that I dropped my job working at the foundation because I knew that man was out go get me. It is a spooky thing to run up against spiritual warfare more or less in the flesh. Basically, he accused me of harassing Betty Edie, a rather prominent author of those "Embraced by the Light" books, where she claims to have spoken to Christ firsthand but that He told her a lot of things counter to Christian teachings. I never even saw her except on the day she showed up to do her presentation. I had read her books and was not in support of inviting her.

Anyhow, glad we had this chat. Sounds like we're on the same page, or at least pretty close.

[jangnim]

That's how I understand it as well. I'd add that if at any point even after being ousted a person repents, I believe it is described that they be allowed to return, and that no matter how many times. But a person who is rebelling against good order and/or good doctrine nevertheless is something to be watched and to be carefull about.


I've never actually been ousted but I was quite literally framed by the pastor set to be in charge of the Wesley Foundation on my campus, so I can understand your concern about abuse of power. Due to the fact that people knew me, and that there was no way I could be responsible for what I was accused of, nothing happened. But it scared me enough that I dropped my job working at the foundation because I knew that man was out go get me. It is a spooky thing to run up against spiritual warfare more or less in the flesh. Basically, he accused me of harassing Betty Edie, a rather prominent author of those "Embraced by the Light" books, where she claims to have spoken to Christ firsthand but that He told her a lot of things counter to Christian teachings. I never even saw her except on the day she showed up to do her presentation. I had read her books and was not in support of inviting her.

Anyhow, glad we had this chat. Sounds like we're on the same page, or at least pretty close.

I count myself fortunate to call you brother Shane. May our savior richly bless you.:amen: :amen: :amen:

[Shane Roach]

I count myself fortunate to call you brother Shane. May our savior richly bless you.:amen: :amen: :amen:

That means more to me than perhaps you might think. :) I've had a hard old time on these forums. Very hard. I feel simultaneosly pulled here to stand up for what I feel strongly is the truth, and yet at the same time wading into the debate forums sometimes feels a whole lot more like being rended because I am out there preaching to the wrong people than it does being persecuted simply for my faith. Lately it's occured to me that the thing missing is that second and third strand of the rope concept.

So thanks again.:thumbsup:

[WannaWitness]

Going to church is highly recommended if we want to grow in the Lord.

[revmalone]

If been told by that to be a good Christian one has to attent Church -- as this is the (only good) place to worship God is this Bibical or can we worship God anywhere in spirit and truth as Jesus told the Samaritian woman. (John 4:21-24.)

NO you Don't Colossians 2:16
16. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

And here;Romans 14:4-8
4. Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

Good enough information for me brother, you serve God first, pease him for get mans little laws they love to gloy in. Man will put a burden on you while serving God from your heart takes them all away.

God Bless ya Brother
Bro Malone

[CandleLightSky]

Just out of curiousity how many people would constitute a church?

Why is it that they have to meet in a church building?

Couldn't they meet in any old place, say, if there were 15 or so people who were commited to meeting together as a church, and edifying one another, learning from one another and being involved in each other's lives...would they count as a church without going to an actual church building?

When there are more people in a group doesn't logic say that group will become less effective?

How many people in a church are neccesary for it to really be dynamic?

If churches are so big doesn't that leave people without things to do as far as gifts and leadership?

Does it say anywhere in scripture we must build buildings expressly for religious purposes?