Christian Jews

[GreenEyedLady]

Praise the Lord my friend saw that light and is no longer studing the JW beliefs.
However, she has found a new church that is messianic jewish. This church seems pretty cool. They celebrate all the jewsih festivals that the early churchs did in the bible (NT).
Why is NOT every christian celebrating these festivals?How improtant are they, and how do YOU feel about them?
GEL

[Miss Shelby]

They celebrate all the jewsih festivals that the early churchs did in the bible .

Do you mean to say they embrace certain *gasp* traditions?

Michelle

[GreenEyedLady]

LOL!
Well...these according to my friend are festivals that The people in the NT did. These are the festivals that God said was OK.
?!?!?!?!
HUH???
They of course are not Nessacary for salvation or anything like that...its just a celebration according to my friend.
Being that she was raised with the beliefs that ALL holidays are pagan and bad...she has "found" holidays that are "good"
GEL

[owen_rocks]

Originally posted by GreenEyedLady
LOL!
Well...these according to my friend are festivals that The people in the NT did. These are the festivals that God said was OK.
?!?!?!?!
HUH???
They of course are not Nessacary for salvation or anything like that...its just a celebration according to my friend.
Being that she was raised with the beliefs that ALL holidays are pagan and bad...she has "found" holidays that are "good"
GEL

A couple of relevant verses:

We aren't under obligation to keep any of the Old Testament Ceremonial laws:

Col 2:16-17 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

However, Paul in the Letter to the Romans seems to indicate that it is ok to celebrate those days, if someone is so inclined:

Rom 14:5-6 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

From what I've read, there were Christians in Rome who
were converted from Judaism, and still felt they should
celebrate those festivals unto God.

However, not for salvation or as a meritorious work, which Paul anathematizes in the book of Galatians:

Gal 4:10-11 You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.



peace,
owen_rocks

[jukesk9]

Some of the Messianic Jews (not all) still celebrate the good ol' stuff of the OT because they believe they are still bound by the law. There is a name for that movement but I can't think of it off hand....

[GreenEyedLady]

They DO NOT feel like they are BOUND BY LAW!
They know they are free. They feel it is good to celelbrate in Christ this way. Some of them might be sabbath worshippers..but most of them are not. They may study on the sabbath but it is asured in the church that noone is BOUND to the sabbath as they were in the OT.
Just thougt I would clear that up. MJ have differant churchs...not one is the same. Some believe in tongues others don;t.

GEL

[Josephus]

Something I'd like to encouage those who do not celebrate the 7 Feasts of the year:

Each of the feasts is a direct symbol of the fulfillment of Jesus Christ. For example, Passover is the Crucifixion. The Feast of Weeks is Pentecost. Jesus was probably born on the Feast of Tabernacles (God "living" with man) in a festival "booth" in the only open space available at the time: a manger area. Yom Kippor (Day of Atonement) is yet to be fulfilled at the Last Day. the Feast of Trumpets ...is of course THE RAPTURE! Jesus is the substance that fulfills the symbol of the Feasts. Do a study sometime. Once you know what the Feasts are, and what they correlate to, celebrating them "In Rememberence of Me" takes on a whole new, deeper and enriching meaning!

[JohnR7]

>>Why is NOT every christian celebrating these festivals?

We have been given different ones to observe. Like recently we just had pentacost. Of course the Hebrews celebrated pentacost also. Resurrection sunday for us, is passover for them. They teach their children about how God delievered them from the bondage and slavery of Egypt. We teach our kids about how we were delivered from the bondage and slavery of sin. We do not do the feast of trumpets because that is still future for us.

[arab4christ]

Christian Jews

Look how beautiful those 2 words look together...How beautiful!

Thank you for this post...I would also like to know more about the traditions and how they could possibly affect us as Christians in following them as well. But as someone said, those traditions ( especially food ones ) aren't required for us anymore. But it would still be interesting.

God bless

a4c

[Jenna]

I think it is a beautiful thing, for people all over the world to celebrate the feasts that God gave to his children. I have a little bit of a problem with the idea that Christians have "new" celebrations due to things that have happened in the NT. Just because we choose to celebrate an event, that doesn't make it a celebration that was given by God. I don't know if I am being clear of not. Anyone get what I am trying to say?

Sometimes I think that alot of it has to do with a good number of Christians wanting to seperate themselves from the Jews, a notion that just confounds me. Then again, it is beyond me how anyone can say that they are Christian and then turn around and curse the Jews for "killing Jesus". The whole relationship between the children in God's family just confuses me utterly. :(

Oh bother.....I give up. My communication skills stink today...... lol

[dignitized]

The early Christians celebrated the Eucharist and the Agape feast too, and I have YET to see a messianic congregation which celebrates either.

[dignitized]

Jenna: what many of the Messianic bent fail to realize and many protestants to boot, is that the Eucharist is the Passover - that Penticost is the feast of booths - that many of the OT feasts have NT renditions and NT meanings. :)

[Pray4Isrel]

My husband and I host Messianic Passover Seders every year and go to different churchs (all denominations) to teach them about their Jewish roots. We emphasize the extreme correlation between the feasts and their New Testament parallels. It is a beautiful thing to celebrate feasts that are thousands of years old.

[dignitized]

Pray4: Welp, since our church started out as a synagogue and our pastor has been friends with a messinic rabbit since before he even knew the Lord, we have a firm connection to the roots of the faith. We also have the fullness of the NT meanings of the OT feasts. I have to believe that one cannot understand the fullness of the passover without understanding the Eucharist also.

[Pray4Isrel]

For instance, the Passover Lamb represents Christ as the Perfect Sacrifice for our sins. He has set us free from bondage. I find Passover to be my most favorite celebration or Holiday, if you will, of the entire year. There is so much meaning to it.

[dignitized]

pray4israel: sadly the english people prefered vulgar easter to the true name for the feast - Pascha.

[Pray4Isrel]

Yes, that is the case with many of our "holidays". It would be nice to have the whole story, dontcha think?

[dignitized]

prayer: Christ IS the whole story :D

[Charles YTK]

Greetings to all,

I was reading this thread and wanted to interject concerning Br. Max post # 12

Jenna: what many of the Messianic bent fail to realize and many protestants to boot, is that the Eucharist is the Passover - that Penticost is the feast of booths - that many of the OT feasts have NT renditions and NT meanings.

Charles YTK>>> I do not agree with this. The Eucharist is too tightly connected to the catholic process of transsubstaniation, where the bread and the wine literaly become the flesh and the blood of messiah through the the reciting of magical words. All connected with Pagan practice, and painted over with some christinization paint to make new rituals. Passover is about the Lords deliverance from the Satanic ruled wold, and is also a picture of the tribulation which is coming, the last great exodus.

Penetocst is not the same as Booths. Penecost is the same as Shavuot, (the feast of weeks). This feast is about renewing the covenant. Every Jew knew this as did the disciples who were waiting in the upper room that day, and it a display of divine power we have Sinai enacted all oer again with flames of fire, and people hearing the Lord in their own languages, and a covenant was entered into. This time the new covenant, where that which had been previously written on stone is now written upon mens hearts through the spirit. These are important milestone events that have a place in every believers life, and only hasatan wins by our sweeping away these rich lessons which God himslef designed and gave to us, so that we might know Him and the Messiah better.

Blessings to you

Charles YTK

[cleon]

Well said Charles, we do not find the term "eucharist" in the Bible.

(*This portion of the post edited out for inappropriate statements about denominational differences)

I do not see how Messianic jews would celebrate the jewish passover which was just a shadow of good things to come, especially since "Christ our passover is sacrificed for us" 1 Corinthians 5:7.

Catholics keep participating in the mass (which they say is the same sacrifice) denying the once for all finished sacrifice of Christ 2000 years ago. The eucharist denies the eternal efficacy to all generations of Christ's offering for sin.

Noel

[isshinwhat]

Well said Charles, we do not find the term "eucharist" in the Bible.

Actually the term "eucharista" appears in the New Testament at least 15 times.

I do not agree with this. The Eucharist is too tightly connected to the catholic process of transsubstaniation, where the bread and the wine literaly become the flesh and the blood of messiah through the the reciting of magical words. All connected with Pagan practice, and painted over with some christinization paint to make new rituals. Passover is about the Lords deliverance from the Satanic ruled wold, and is also a picture of the tribulation which is coming, the last great exodus.

The priest Mel-chiz'edek did indeed offer bread and wine as a sacrifice (Genesis 14:18). This type of offering, called a "toda," is what Mel-chiz'edek offered, and is what Christ, who was "designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchiz'edek" offers today as both the Priest and Victim (Hebrews 5:10). The Lord said through the Prophet Malachi, "My name will be great among the nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to my name, because my name will be great among the nations," says the LORD Almighty."

We know three very important things now.

1) Mel-chiz'edek offered bread and wine as a sacrifice to God the Father.
2) Christ is the eternal High Priest in the order of Mel-chiz'edek.
3) The Lord said that a pure sacrifice would be offered to Him forever.

Paul says in Romans 15:16 that he has been graced "to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit." The priesthood that Paul belonged to was the priesthood of Mel-chiz'edek, of which Christ is the High Priest. It is through the bread and wine that Christ declared to be His Body and Blood that we offer our sacrifices, our very selves, to God the Father through Christ. We are joined with Christ into His Body, and through this mystical union we "escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). It is this divine nature, this eternal life that is the Most Holy Trinity that we partake in when we commune with Christ in the Eucharist. We have been given the gift of participating in God's very own "toda" to Himself, Calvary, when we receive the Eucharist.

As you said before, this Passover, which we participate in through the Eucharist, is the greatest source of "deliverance from the Satanic ruled wold" available to us. Far from a Christianized pagan practice, the Eucharist is the fulfillment of the Passover. It is Christ's very offering to the Father which we are so blessed to participate in, and it has been believed from Apostolic times, indeed, it is a teaching of Christ Himself.

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again"
Ignatius of Antioch,Epistle to Smyrnaeans,7,1(c.A.D. 110),in ANF,I:89

Keep in mind St. Ignatius was a disciple of the Apostle John, was ordained a Bishop by Saint Peter. He provides an excellent Apostolic witness.

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour,having been made flesh and blood for our salvation,so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word,and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished,is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh."
Justin Martyr,First Apology,66(A.D. 110-165),in ANF,I:185

Notice here the bread and wine become "transmuted" through the prayers of His word.

"But what consistency is there in those who hold that the bread over which thanks have been given is the Body of their Lord,and the cup His Blood,if they do not acknowledge that He is the Son of the Creator of the world..."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,IV:18,2(c.A.D. 200),in JUR,I:95

Again, it is only after the prayers of thanks (eucharista) have been said that the bread becomes the Body of Christ.

This Apostolic (notice each of those quotes comes from 215 and 125 years prior to Nicea) belief in the Sacraments is the key to understanding Christ's fulfillment of the Law and our participation in that fulfillment.

God Bless,

Neal

[isshinwhat]

When a Messianic Jew celebrates the Passover, how does the intent of the celebration differ from that of an orthodox Jew?

God Bless,

Neal

[Shimon]

After the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 CE, Judaism was forced to redefine itself apart from its traditional Temple rituals. The Pharisees had won by default, the power of the Sadducees was directly linked with Temple worship. When the Temple was destroyed, the Sadducees lost everything that gave them authority.

In the wake of the Temple destruction, the Nazarenes (Messianics) were forced out of the synagogues by modification of one of the standard prayers.

With the followers of Yeshua effectively shut out of the “mainline” Synagogues, missionary work was no longer possible among Torah observant people. From now on the audience would be a pagan audience. As Eusebius states:

Then starting out upon long journeys they performed the office of evangelists, being filled with the desire to preach Christ to those who had not yet heard the word of faith, and to deliver to them the divine Gospels. And when they had only laid the foundations of the faith in foreign places, they appointed others as pastors, and entrusted them with the nurture of those that had recently been brought in, while they themselves went on again to other countries and nations, with the grace and the co-operation of God.

-- Eusebius of Caesarea, Church History: Book III, Chapter 37

http://web.cbn.org/bibleresources/theology/eusebius/churchhistory/eusebius-b3-38.asp

Eusebius’ remarks tell us a great deal as to how and when the “Church” turned from its Hebrew roots to become the Hellenstic Catholic Church of the second century and beyond. First of all, he tells us very clearly that the evangelists went to those who had never yet heard the Word of God. These were apparently pagans who lacked any upbringing or training in Torah. Without any training or knowledge of Torah, they would have been completely incapable of discerning the validity of their message. Unlike the Bereans, whom Paul commended because they tested his message against the Torah, these people had no such way of guarding themselves.

Secondly, after staying only long enough to lay a minimal foundation before moving on, care and leadership of these new converts was put into the hands of men who were, themselves, new converts – violating one of Paul’s most basic tenants that an overseer “…must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil” (1 Timothy 3:6). So then, not only were these men untrained in the Torah, there is no indication that they ever would receive Torah instruction, even after their conversion. Eusebius even tells of how one young man was chosen for “leadership training” based on his “excellent physique, attractive appearance, and ardent spirit.” Therefore, being left with no formal training and perhaps only a single copy of a gospel account, they were left to fend for themselves as they tried to teach their new churches how to walk a godly way.

One has only to scan the lists of early Church Bishops to see names such as Xystus, Hero, Telesphorus, Eros, Theophilus, and on it goes. The information we have of these early leaders shows that they were all utterly deficient in Torah training. Rather, their training was in Hellenist Philosophy and it was through the eyes of a Greek philosopher that they interpreted and developed their new Christian religion.

The impact of this can be seen very early in the Church’s development among the pagan peoples. The distortion of the Lord’s Supper, which was associated with the Passover Seder and which Paul admonished the Corinthian congregation to keep (1 Corinthians 5:7-8), came very early on. As early as 107 CE, we see the Christian Church developing a whole separate theology and cult around this observance. No longer is the practice associated with the Passover meal (which itself was eventually formally abolished by the Church), rather it is given an entirely new name, the Eucharist. The celebration of the “Eucharist” was to be given magical powers and strictly controlled. For example, it was to be considered valid only when it was held under the bishop or someone to whom he had committed it. It was given the status of transubstantiation for it was said that “the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ.” And that “this same Bread is the medicine of immortality, the antidote against death, and everlasting life in Jesus Christ.” With this we see all the primary elements of a Catholic Mass as early as 107 CE.

Shimon

[Charles YTK]

The difference between the Messianic observance and that of Othodox Jews, is clearly that the Orthodox is limited to the historical deliverance from Egypt, touched with the revelation of Gods willingness to deliver His people.

The Messianic sees Yeshua as being the kingpin of both the historical event in Egypt, and continuing deliverance and the future deliverer from the tribulation. Much of the richness of the Passover is involved in its details, which might well be too much for this thread. But for an example, Yeshua died on the cross at the exact moment the lambs were killed on the altar, 3PM. This is according to the Torah which says you shall kill it (the lamb) "Between the evenings" (Which is exactly 3 PM. ) Yeshua was examined from the 10th day until the 14th by the priests as was the lamb. Yeshua relates his own blood to that of the cup after the meal, the cup of redemption. It was this cup that that he said "this is MY blood." And it is only this cup, the one after the meal only on Passover that is symbolic of the deliverance which was given through His blood. Not a weekly eurcurist which in some magical way turns into the blood. In fact, this would be completely against Torah and the prohabition against consuming blood.

Yeshua gave his life, (blood) to exact our deliverance. Now look also at the facts of the passover and the things yet to come, the tribulation,
Two men are brought as witnesses to deliver Gods word, Pharoah is like antichrist, the judgements, water turns to blood, frogs, fire from heaven, death of cattle ect, and in the final battle God draws out the armies of antichrist, (as he did the Pharoah, to a place in the wilderness to destroy him. Then it was with a parting of the red sea, and Moshe calling the people accross the divide, next time it is rolling the heavens back like a scroll and Yeshua, (the one who was to come in the same authority as Moshe) parting the heavens and calling his own across the divide of heaven.

This is the passover we are given by God, not a weekly mytical service. The weekly passover was only the result of Roman pressure on the Jews during the Jewish wars, which caused the passover, circumcision and sabbath to be prohibited. It was not Gods ordinance that we change to a weekly obserance of some kind. All the feast days are at specific time and done in specific way as lessons to us about Who God is and what is about to take place.

Hope this is recived in the kindness with which I write it.

Charles YTK

Beyond all these things and more

[isshinwhat]

With this we see all the primary elements of a Catholic Mass as early as 107 CE.

Amen! I would recommend Scott Hahn's book, The Lamb's Supper, to anyone researching the correlation bewtween the Mass and the Passover. It is worth reading, whether one is Catholic or not, as it ties the Early Christian Faith to its Hebrew roots very poetically and meticulously.

Hope this is recived in the kindness with which I write it.

It most definately was, Charles YTK. Though we differ on our view of the Sacraments and what a Christian's relation to the Law should be, it is good to learn more about my brothers and sisters, and hopefully they will learn more about me.

God Bless,

Neal

[dignitized]

Originally posted by Charles YTK

 I do not agree with this. The Eucharist is too tightly connected to the catholic process of transsubstaniation, where the bread and the wine literaly become the flesh and the blood of messiah through the the reciting of magical words. All connected with Pagan practice, and painted over with some christinization paint to make new rituals. Passover is about the Lords deliverance from the Satanic ruled wold, and is also a picture of the tribulation which is coming, the last great exodus.

Penetocst is not the same as Booths. Penecost is the same as Shavuot, (the feast of weeks).

 

Firstly I must say to you that the words spoken over the elements of the communion table are NOT magical they are scripture - I am insulted that you would even speak in such a way.

Secondly, I am not Roman Catholic although with good reason I call them brethren.

Thirdly, the word Eucharist does not appear in your translations of the bible because you TRANSLATED the word!! Lol

Eucharist:
Pronunciation: 'yü-k(&-)r&st
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English eukarist, from Middle French euchariste, from Late Latin eucharistia, from Greek, Eucharist, gratitude, from eucharistos grateful, from eu- + charizesthai to show favor, from charis favor, grace, gratitude; akin to Greek chairein to rejoice --

fourthly, If you think the Eucharist which is mentioned repeatedly in the Scriptures and in the extra-canonical writings of the apostles and church fathers is a "pagan" idea you are wholly ignorant of the historic Christian faith. :sigh:

Matt 26:26-28 - Jn 6:51-56 - 1Cor 10:16 - 1Cor 11:23-27

Ignatius of Antioch -- "I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

Ignatius of Antioch -"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. " (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr - We call this food Eucharist . . . For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151])

Tertullian (AD 145-220)

"Our flesh eats the body and blood of Christ so that our soul is filled with God. Therefore what He joins together in His work
cannot be separated in His reward"


Texts such as the Didache which very nearly was included into the canon of scripture aslo support the doctrine of the Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.  What more, Huss, Luther, Tyndale, all of the early reformers agreed that Christ was real in the Eucharist - they may have disagree HOW that was so, but none the less, NONE denied that the elements of the Eucharist were post consecration the Real presence of Christ upon the alter.  KNOX was the first real champion amongst the reformers for the notion that the Eucharist was false. Poor deceived soul that he was.

HISTORICALLY speaking, there has been nothing more central to the Christian faith that the Eucharist.  Before there was a bible, there was the Eucharist.  Which history tells us was reserved for baptized believers only.  While the Agape feast or communal meal was open to all.


As far as Pentecost, my mistake. I connected it to the wrong feast.  Booths is more a rendering of Lent. I am not infallible :) The point remains, the OT feasts have NT expression.

[Shimon]

BrMax:

Firstly I must say to you that the words spoken over the elements of the communion table are NOT magical they are scripture - I am insulted that you would even speak in such a way.


These are the rules for this forum:

This forum is specifically for the discussion of Messianic Judaism and its beliefs, as well as for congregation of Jewish Christians. Various Jewish feasts, holidays and other traditions may be discussed.

This is an opportunity for Messianic Jewish believers to get together and share their beliefs and love for their Messiah with the rest of Christianity.

This forum is also open to non-Christian orthodox Jews, who want to learn more about the Messiah. Non-practising and agnostic Jews are asked not to post here.

There should be no debate regarding these issues in this forums. All debates or disagreements should be posted in the Meeting Place forum.

NOTE: Just as Catholics may seem very different to Protestants, so will some of the beliefs and traditions of Messianic Jews. Keep in mind that we are all part of the same family of God, Christians, believers in Yeshua, our Messiah and Savior. Anti-Jewish posts will not be tolerated on this forum.


There's no reason to feel insulted. We're sharing our beliefs with those who are interested. If you are not interested, there's no one forcing you to participate.

In discussing our beliefs, it is necessary for us to explain our observances, and also to explain why we disagree with other observances, such as Christmas, Easter, the Eucharist, and others. The intent is not to offend, but to simply state our beliefs because there are some here who have a genuine desire to understand our point of view. When we speak of matters concerning Torah-observance, it inevitably raises questions: "What about this verse? and what about that verse?" We're here to answer these questions.

But, if you're only interested in debating and arguing, this isn't the forum for it. We'd like to stay within the rules of this forum so that we can continue to be welcomed here.

Shimon

[VOW]

To Shimon:

While this is a forum for sharing beliefs, it is still not the place for denigrating the beliefs of other Christians. Although Br Max was crossing the line with his harsh reaction, the statement that the Catholic teaching of transubstantiation is "magical" is most inappropriate as well.

Please keep in mind the rules of Christian Forums will ALL postings throughout CF.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
Moderator, Christian Forums

[dignitized]

oh but there is a reason to feel insulted. I do not defame what you believe by calling it MAGIC implying it is satanic rather than GOD given.

 

Vow: what is harsh about telling some one when they have been insulting?

[Shimon]

By the way, since you brought up Ignatius…

We see in the writings of Ignatius written around 107 CE that Shabbat observance was considered part of “obsolete practices,” and believers were coerced to change their calendar in accordance with “the Lord’s Day, …on which our Life rose by His power…”( A. Roberts, J. Donaldson ed., “Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians,” Ch. 9).

In the Epistle of Mathetes, written around 130 CE, Jewish practices in accordance with the Torah are condemned in no uncertain terms:

But again their scruples concerning meats, and their superstition relating to the Sabbath and the vanity of their circumcision and the dissimulation of their fasting and new moons, I do [not] suppose you need to learn from me, are ridiculous and unworthy of any consideration.

-- A. Roberts, J. Donaldson ed., “The Letter of Mathetes to Diognetus,” Ch. 4.

So clearly the Church leadership was advocating a change in proscribed worship days. What’s even more disturbing is how the Church put teeth into this policy, because without the ability to coerce the people into this change it could not have lasted. This was done by creating a hierarchical top-down structure that kept the people “in line:”

You must all follow the lead of the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed that of the Father; follow the presbytery as you would the Apostles; reverence the deacons as you would God’s commandment. Let no one do anything touching the Church, apart from the bishop. Let that celebration of the Eucharist be considered valid which is held under the bishop or anyone to whom he has committed it. Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not permitted without authorization from the bishop either to baptize or to hold an agape; but whatever he approves is also pleasing to God.

-- A. Roberts, J. Donaldson ed., “Ignatius to Smyrnaeans,” Ch. 8.


Let no one deceive himself: unless a man is within the sanctuary, he has to go without the Bread of God. Assuredly, if the prayer of one or two has such efficacy, how much more that of the bishop and the entire Church! …he who absents himself from the common meeting, by that very fact shows pride and becomes a sectarian; for the Scripture says: God resists the proud. Let us take care, therefore, not to oppose the bishop, that we may be submissive to God.

-- A. Roberts, J. Donaldson ed., “Ignatius to Ephesians,” Ch. 5.

Avoid the noxious weeds. Their gardener is not Jesus Christ, because they are not the planting of the Father. …all those that belong to God and Jesus Christ are the very ones that side with the bishop; and all those that may yet change their mind and return to the unity of the Church, will likewise belong to God, and thus lead a life acceptable to Jesus Christ. Do not be deceived, my brethren: if a man runs after a schismatic, he will not inherit the kingdom of God; if a man chooses to be a dissenter, he severs all connection with the Passion.

-- A. Roberts, J. Donaldson ed., “Ignatius to Philadelphians,” Ch. 3.

Take, then, to partake of one Eucharist; for, one is the Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one the cup to unite us with His Blood, and one altar; just as there is one bishop assisted by the presbytery and the deacons, my fellow servants. Thus you will conform in all your actions to the will of God.

-- A. Roberts, J. Donaldson ed., “Ignatius to Philadelphians,” Ch. 4.

Once men like Ignatius usurped the authority of the Torah in their churches, all hopes for Torah observance in these congregations was lost. From Ignatius’ writings (107 CE) it is clear that the model for Church government closely mirrored that of the Roman government. The authority of the Bishop was considered equal to the authority of the Messiah. To oppose the Bishop was to oppose God Himself. The Eucharist, baptizing and common assembly were only to be done when and where the Bishop designated, and since Ignatius clearly indicated that each of these practices were necessary for salvation, one was forced to obey the commands of the Bishop or forfeit his soul. Therefore, since the Bishops had ruled Sunday to be the proper day of communal assembly and that only on that day were the sacraments to be effectually enjoined, one could only be saved by worshiping on Sunday. With this the bishops trampled God’s Torah and His Covenants under their feet.

What is more, unity was to be observed, it seems, at all costs. Ignatius could not have been more clear when he said that those who dissented from the Bishop severed all connection with “Christ’s Passion” and could not inherit the Kingdom of God. Yet, this kind of unity was the theme of both the Church and the Synagogue during this time. The writings of the Church fathers are permeated with admonitions for unity and conformity to their new orthodoxy. But as we have seen, so were the Rabbis. Each side was threatening excommunication to anyone who dissented. One side embraced Torah, yet rejected the Living Word. The other side embraced “Jesus Christ,” yet rejected the very Torah that He embodied. And somewhere between these two polar opposites the Messianic faithful struggled to survive.

Shimon

[Shimon]

Vow:

While this is a forum for sharing beliefs, it is still not the place for denigrating the beliefs of other Christians. Although Br Max was crossing the line with his harsh reaction, the statement that the Catholic teaching of transubstantiation is "magical" is most inappropriate as well.

Please keep in mind the rules of Christian Forums will ALL postings throughout CF.


I've provided the quotes from Ignatius above saying this very thing. Whether or not it is what Catholics believe today, it is clear from the early writings that it is what was believed at the time.

Shimon

[dignitized]

Shimon: I was waiting for some one to post this :)

http://www.mnment.com/judaism/613.php

At the above link is a list of the 613 mitzvahs of the torah from a Jewish website. I would like you to find one that states we are to worship on Saturday. :)

The Lord commands us to REMEMBER the sabbath and to keep it holy. That is NOT a command to worship on that day. What more, what does HOLY mean? According to Ungers Bible Dictionary, Holy mean to keep set apart. As a Christian man, who has Christ in his heart, I remember God every day and keep every day set apart unto his service. :) If you wish to worship only on saturday that is of course your choice, butI must remind you that the early church gathered on Sunday to celebrate the Agape feast and the Eucharist both :) as one body in Christ Jesus.

The church fathers NEVER taught other than what they were given by word and example by the apostles. :)

[dignitized]

Look if I came off harsh in my response to Charles and his comment concerning the Eucharist I am sorry. It was not my intent. I am disturbed and upset however when people make such inflammatory statements in obvious ignorance as if they are speaking the gospel truth. Again, it was not my intent to be harsh or judgmental in any way.

[VOW]

To Shimon:

Transubstantiation is not "magical." It is a MIRACLE. To imply that "magical words" or "incantations" are recited over the Eucharist to change it to the actual Body of Christ is offensive to Catholics.


To Br Max:

Believe me, I do understand where you are coming from, but "insulting" is a highly-charged word. We do best to correct misconceptions with gentleness, and we try to assume that people who hold the misbeliefs do not intentionally mean to do us harm.



Peace be with you,
~VOW
Moderator, Christian Forums

[Pray4Isrel]

Sunday is technically the first day of the week, therefore Saturday would be the day of rest, Shabbat, as it is the last day of the week. Though churches observe the Sabbath on Sunday, if we want to go back to our roots and do it according to the beginning of time, Friday evening would begin the Sabbath. Shimon, isn't it when the first three stars are visible in the sky on Friday until Staurday evening? (I believe this was what I learned in Israel.)

[Shimon]

Br. Max:

The Lord commands us to REMEMBER the sabbath and to keep it holy. That is NOT a command to worship on that day.

On the contrary:

Leviticus 23:3: " 'There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD .

Look if I came off harsh in my response to Charles and his comment concerning the Eucharist I am sorry. It was not my intent. I am disturbed and upset however when people make such inflammatory statements in obvious ignorance as if they are speaking the gospel truth. Again, it was not my intent to be harsh or judgmental in any way.


I've been very open and willing to point out some of the faulty beliefs and teachings of the 1st-Century Jews, so why is it "insulting" to point out what we consider to be some faulty teachings of the early church founders?

Shimon

[dignitized]

Shimon, it is insulting to say that a contentiously held Christian belief, a belief held for the bulk of Christian history by the bulk of Christians is pagan in origins and witchcraft. If he had said mistaken, that I could understand. But to say it is witchcraft is way out of line. That should be plain to everyone.

now, as far as Lev 23:3, funny how the Jewish website I gave you notes that a command not to work on YOM KIPPUR. #135 - 137 on the list


 

can you explain the discrepancy between what you believe and what the Jews themselves teach?
 

[jukesk9]

<P>***MOD HAT ON*** </P>
<P>
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD id=cat style="BORDER-RIGHT: #828fa2 2px solid; BORDER-TOP: #bfc5d3 2px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #bfc5d3 2px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #828fa2 2px solid" bgColor=#727e93 ?><FONT class=nf color=#ffffff><B><A name=29></A><FONT size=2>Rule No. 2 - No "Trolling" </FONT></B></FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #bfc5d3 2px solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff 2px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff 2px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #bfc5d3 2px solid" bgColor=#d6dae6 ?><FONT class=nf size=2>2) You will not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of this forum. This will include any new user with less than 50 posts starting a "discretionable" topic - i.e. a topic not suitable for children. This will also include posts that put down Christianity in general or any posts considered as blasphemy by staff (this is a CHRISTIAN FORUMS site), or posts that put down another Christian group or denomination. This includes links to websites in profiles and signatures. </FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></P>
<P>Now, with that said, there will be no more attacks on Transubstantiation--or any other Catholic doctrine for that matter.&nbsp; Disagree with it all you want and debate it all you want.&nbsp; Just do so in a professional, Christian manner.&nbsp; And, take heart, no Catholic will get away with calling Protestantism heretical or anything like that.&nbsp; </P>
<P><EM>I've been very open and willing to point out some of the faulty beliefs and teachings of the 1st-Century Jews, so why is it "insulting" to point out what we consider to be some faulty teachings of the early church founders?<BR></EM></P>
<P>And thus Catholics could do that with the teachings of the Reformers and label them erroneous, etc. but they won't do so.&nbsp; </P>
<P>***MOD HAT OFF***</P>

[Pray4Isrel]

Note/Reminder:
It is important that we can carry on a civil debate/discussion according to the forum rules.
Please keep these rules in mind for a peaceful and respectful discussion.

Thank you and God Bless,
Pray4Isrel

[cleon]

With this we see all the primary elements of a Catholic Mass as early as 107 CE.

(*Edited out for inappropriate stetements)


The apostle Paul said, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.&nbsp;For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.&nbsp;Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.&nbsp; Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears" (Acts 20:28-31).

By the time Jude wrote his little epistle he stated, "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.&nbsp;For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained (prophesied) to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ" (Jude 3-4).

(*Edited out for inappropriate statements)

[dignitized]

cleon, I will not debate this topic with you here it is NOT the forum for this discussion. This thread is for the dicussion of Christian Jews. The Eucharist was a side issue in the greater discussion.

[cleon]

Romans 1:18&nbsp; "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness"

It is sad that some seek to suppress the truth.

[Wolseley]

"grievous wolves"; "perverse things"; "ungodly men"; "unrighteousness of men"......

It is sad that some seek to suppress the truth..
All of which you apply to the Catholic Church, eh, cleon?

One more infraction from you of anti-Catholic trolling, my friend, and you will be taking an extended vacation from this site.

Count on it.

[dignitized]

cleon: begone. If you would like to start a thread for this topic in the appropriate forum, I'd be more than happy to refute your errors concerning what catholics believe. :)&nbsp; And I'm not even catholic!!

[Pray4Isrel]

Hey, Hey, Hey. Let's all be civil.

It would be appropriate to take this specific topic of the Eucharist to it's appropriate forum.

[Charles YTK]

Br. Max,

Sorry to have been out of touch with this thread for a few days. We were away from home for a few days.

On the issue of transubstantiation, what I was saying was that the process of turning one thing into another thing, is either miracle, or magic. Now I would emphasise that the error is perhaps in trying to convince someone that this has happened. This is where the mystical things come into play. For the sake of understanding, and not to argue, please allow me to explain;

If I were to go to your mass the coming Sunday and take the "Elements" one sample from before the prayers over them, and another sample from the smae "Elements" after the prayer, and then take these to the lab and anaylze them in a Gas Chromatograph, I can assure you that they will be exactly the same, both bread and wine. Do you doubt my words on this? What do the bread and wine taste like in your own mouth? Do they taste like raw flesh and human blood, or do they taste like bread and wine?

(I'm guessing the latter). (I must warn you that in my ministry as a Messianic, I have served by invitation in a large catholic church, as part of the music and teaching ministry, and as such have had communion many times.)

Now lets ponder a few things; since eating human flesh and drinking any sort of blood is a total abomination to our God, how would this Eucurist fit in with this prohabition? It does not. Could it be that there was something miss applied concerning the teachings of Yeshua? I believe there was. Yeshua identified himself with the bread of the passover, (eaten only once a year) and with the cup of redemption which is the cup after the Passover Seder meal. He speaks of our being filled with his salvation, redemption and deliverance, in other words to be immersed in his word and in the spirit. We are to be filled with Him. Not by eating him, but by allowing Him to become our Messiah King, and to fill us with the Holy Spirit. This is what being born again is all about.

I want to tell you a harsh truth. The so called Church fathers were wrong about a great number of things. If you are not convinced of this, then you should read their writings to see what hatred they held for the Jews and the Torah. This hatred did not change significantly with the reformation either. You might find it interesting to read the speeches of Adolf Hitler calling for the destruction of the Jews, and to find that these words calling for the death and burning of the Jews were quotes directly from the sermons of Martin Luther. Luther learned this hatred from the church fathers of the 2nd and 3rd. century.

Is it wrong to have bread and wine with your worship services? No, not at all. As long as we keep it in the same context as the Nazzarenes of the 1st century. They took part in a covenantal meal, reafirming their oneness through the Messiah, and their membership in the covenant which was sealed in his blood. For millennia before the time of Yeshua the traditional meal of covenant and fellowship has been bread and wine. These are very strong Hebraic practices, going all the way back. And we are always encouraged to remember this covenant made through Messiah and to share the breaking of bread and to drink wine. The idea that this meal was somehow eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the Lord is strickly a Roman catholic tradition and has no biblical foundation. Remember that when Yeshua told us to alway eat this bread in rememberance of him,k he was saying this in the very act of the passover seder on the night of his betrayal, and was identifying himself as the passover lamb. He was saying every year, when you eat this passover (only once a year on the 14th of Nisan), do so remembering that it is me (Yeshua) whose blood is securing your deliverance from the powes of darkness.

Blessing to you,

Charles YTK

[Shimon]

Vow and jukesk9:


Well, after spending a few days thinking about it, it seems to me that this forum just isn't going to work out. We might as well call this trial period to be officially over.

Evidently, political-correctness has taken root here -- so much so, that you're not interested in investigating the history of Christianity to find out where Christian traditions originated. You're asking us to participate with both hands tied behind our backs, and you're telling us that we cannot state what we believe to be the truth.

One of the very *foundational* beliefs in Messianic Judaism is that Christianity, as a whole, has adopted many pagan traditions into its worship of HaShem. It's one of the things that led us to Messianic Judaism in the first place -- the desire to rediscover the Hebraic roots of our faith and to rid ourselves from every last vestige of pagan idol worship, every symbol, every tradition, every word. You're telling us, however, that we cannot point any of this out. We believe that HaShem has specifically commanded us *NOT* to inquire of other religions and adopt their practices into our worship of Him and say we're doing it for Him.

It was never our intention to offend anyone, but it is our intention to point out what we believe to be pagan traditions and symbolism.

Sometimes, the truth hurts, but it nevertheless remains the truth. Since you are unwilling to listen, then what is the point of keeping this forum alive?


Shimon

[Charles YTK]

Hang on Brother Shimon. Allow the spirit a space to work.

:-) Charles YTK

[Charles YTK]

In II Thes Paul speaks about a great apostasy, a falling away from sound doctrine that would take place. He speaks of a leader who is called "the man of lawlessness". What does this mean? Does it mean that this mad had no respect for civil law, or the local authority? No. It is Gods Law that he is devoid of. In fact his is the embodiment of rejection of Gods law. (Torah). And Paul said the separation from the law had already begun in his own day but that it would continue to get worse as men reject the Torah and follow the spirit of lawlessness. This means that the process that sets the stage for the revelation and acceptance of the antichrist is tied directly to the rejection of Torah, because it is the law of God which holds evil in check, not Roman law. In light of this I copy this very good translation to this thread for you.

2 Thes 1 But in connection with the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah and our gathering together to meet him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily shaken in your thinking or anxious because of a spirit or a spoken message or a letter supposedly from us claiming that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way.
For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom. 4 He will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he will put himself above them all, so that he will sit in the Temple of God and proclaim that he himself is God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For already this separating from Torah is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way. 8 Then the one who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouthand destroy by the glory of his coming.
9 When this man who avoids Torah comes, the Adversary will give him the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders. 10 He will enable him to deceive, in all kinds of wicked ways, those who are headed for destruction because they would not receive the love of the truth that could have saved them. 11 This is why God is causing them to go astray, so that they will believe the Lie. 12 The result will be that all who have not believed the truth, but have taken their pleasure in wickedness, will be condemned.
(Clarksville, MD: Jewish New Testament Publications) 1996

Who was it then that in the days of Paul had already begun to depart from the sound teachings of Torah and to reject it as Gods authority in a believers life. For a clue, ask yourself what denominational Christianitys position on the Torah is. It is totally rejected by the church.

Charles YTK

[Shimon]

Charles:

Hang on Brother Shimon. Allow the spirit a space to work.


Thing of it is, I don't know how I can continue here. It's like participating in a politics forum, but I can't say anything that the supporter of the other political party might object to.

As far as I'm concerned, this was supposed to be a place where we can discuss our beliefs, openly, truthly, and at times, bluntly. If someone takes offense at our beliefs, then that's what the Meeting Place forum is for: to debate those issues.

In *this* forum, we should be able to discuss our beliefs exactly as we see it, but we're being given a gag order. I've been thinking over it for the past few days, and as I see it, no matter what topic I may choose to discuss, I see no way of being able to abide by the implied rule of not "offending" anyone. If I can't even discuss the Eucharist, how am I *ever* going to be able to discuss what the Christmas tree symbolizes, or what it is we're hanging on it?

I'm not trying to offend or insult anyone, but as the same time, I *must* be given the right to state what I believe to be true. If I am not given that right, then what's the purpose of being here at all?

Shimon

[Charles YTK]

Hello Shimon,

I know what you are saying. It is difficult because no matter where we go in discussion forums or in life, we are not going to be recieved too well. There are as you have noted some very significant differences between what we believe and what the denominational believers hold as sacred. I suspect that you like many of us, are intent on following only the biblical teachings rather than the teachings of men and the traditions of the church fathers who taught a mixed message. We have the same problem dealing with Jews and Orthodox Messianics (If that is the correct term) because they hold to the Rabbinical traditions, which are still the traditions of men. You see for myself, as an example, believe that we are to wear TziTzi and this allows either Katan or Tallit or both on occassion. This is Biblically sound and was practiced by the Lord, the apostles and all the Nazzarenes.. However, I do not wear Kippah, because it is not commanded, but is a "rabbinical" sign of piety. I do not begrudge anyone from wearing one if they choose to, for piety or for being in solidarity to our orthodox brothers, but I can not claim that it is a biblical principle, because it simply isn't.

Now lets look at how the scriptures describes the true believers of the last days, those who will see the Lord come with gladness. These men suffer for the sake of their testimony and a persecuted by the Antichrist system.

Rev 12:17 [17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The true believers do both, they keep the commandments of God, AND also they have the testimony of Messiah Yeshua. Both faith through propession and faith through obedience. It is not what you believe that is important, but how you live in response to what you believe, Right? This is why James says, "I will show you my faith by my works." This is a hard word for those who have spent their lives hearing just the opposite, that it is only what you believe, and reciting the sinners prayer is all that is needed; That the Torah (the instructions) of God is null and void for the believers in messiah. This is not what the Lord or any of the apostles taught is it? It is a church teaching from the apostate Roman church which rejected the Hebraic roots of the faith and anything connected with the Jewish people. It is doctrine based in replacement theology, which was the main framework of all Gentile Christianity. These things do not change easily after almost 2000 years. We can only share the word.

Charles YTK

[dignitized]

My brother charles,

&nbsp;

Originally posted by Charles YTK
If I were to go to your mass the coming Sunday and take the "Elements" one sample from before the prayers over them, and another sample from the smae "Elements" after the prayer, and then take these to the lab and anaylze them in a Gas Chromatograph, I can assure you that they will be exactly the same, both bread and wine. Do you doubt my words on this? What do the bread and wine taste like in your own mouth? Do they taste like raw flesh and human blood, or do they taste like bread and wine?


&nbsp;

If you are expecting me to say that when I partake of the Eucharist I am going to taske flesh and blood you misunderstand the doctrine of transubstantiation.&nbsp;However, since I agreed NOT to make this thread about that doctrine I will suffice it to post to a link which will explain what exactly transubstantiation is - http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Homiletic/Jan98/transubstantiation.html

I will reiterate charles that I am NOT Roman Catholic.&nbsp; I was raised in the Methodist church.&nbsp; And much to the dismay of some of my Catholic brethren I do not insist upon adherance to the doctrine of transubstantiation.&nbsp; I do RIGHTLY insist upon the acceptance of the doctrine of the REAL PRESENCE of Christ Jesus in the Eucharist or LORDS SUPPER.&nbsp; If you prefer to understand the real pressance in light of the doctrine of Consubstantiation thats fine - so long as you do accept and believe as did the apostles and the early church that when you partake of the Eucharist you partake of Jesus Christ.

[dignitized]

Originally posted by Shimon
[BAs far as I'm concerned, this was supposed to be a place where we can discuss our beliefs, openly, truthly, and at times, bluntly. If someone takes offense at our beliefs, then that's what the Meeting Place forum is for: to debate those issues.

In *this* forum, we should be able to discuss our beliefs exactly as we see it, but we're being given a gag order. I've been thinking over it for the past few days, and as I see it, no matter what topic I may choose to discuss, I see no way of being able to abide by the implied rule of not "offending" anyone. If I can't even discuss the Eucharist, how am I *ever* going to be able to discuss what the Christmas tree symbolizes, or what it is we're hanging on it?

I'm not trying to offend or insult anyone, but as the same time, I *must* be given the right to state what I believe to be true. If I am not given that right, then what's the purpose of being here at all?

Shimon [/B]

&nbsp;

Shimon,

&nbsp;

There is no problem with discussing your beliefs.&nbsp; But I will propose to you this: there are many people who believe - rightly or wrongly - that the Jews bear the burden of Christs death.&nbsp; Would you suggest that they be allowed in this forum to call Jews Christ killers?&nbsp; Its not a problem with what you believe or do not believe - I'm not going to twist your arm and force you to believe in celebrating the Eucharist if you don't want to, I'll leave that to God.&nbsp; But at the same time no oe here has the right to project it as witchcraft any more than those who believe that the Jews killed Christ have the right to defame Jews.

[Shimon]

Br. Max:

There is no problem with discussing your beliefs. But I will propose to you this: there are many people who believe - rightly or wrongly - that the Jews bear the burden of Christs death. Would you suggest that they be allowed in this forum to call Jews Christ killers?

That's what many have been taught, and I see no reason why someone should not be allowed to ask for our perspective on that. If that's what they truly believe, I see no problem with them saying so. It's certainly something we're used to dealing with often. But if they wish to *debate* that topic, the Meeting Place is the place to do that.

But at the same time no oe here has the right to project it as witchcraft any more than those who believe that the Jews killed Christ have the right to defame Jews.

I used the very same word, "magical," that Christopher O'Quinn had used in an article he had written for "Bikurei Tziyon" magazine, published by First Fruits of Zion. I was summarizing the points he had made in his article, and used the same term he had used.

I was showing that the gospel had been preached to Gentiles who were formerly pagan. New converts were placed in charge of leading their congregation, even though they were given no Torah instruction whatsoever, only brief instruction in the gospel, and they had no written scriptures at all. So they fell back on the only belief system they knew and melded that into Christianity. That was the point I was making with the Eucharist.

Shimon

[Shimon]

Charles:

I suspect that you like many of us, are intent on following only the biblical teachings rather than the teachings of men and the traditions of the church fathers who taught a mixed message.

You are very right.

I came to realize that "antichrist" does not mean "against Christ." The Greek word that is used for "antichrist" is "pseudochristo."

"Pseudo" means "counterfeit." It's something which bears a *resemblance* to the original, but is distinct from the original. It is something that a believer fully expects to be the Christ, but which isn't the Christ at all. Once I understood that, I understood what John meant when he said:

1 John 4:3: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I suddenly began to realize that the Messiah I had been worshipping was not the true Messiah at all, but a counterfeit -- a replacement. The "spirit of antichrist" is already present, and has been for nearly 2000 years. John was telling us that it had already begun in his *own* day.

This allowed me to better understand what Yeshua meant when He said:

Matthew 7:22-23: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Who are these people of whom Yeshua is foretelling? Who prophecies in the name of Yeshua? Who casts out in demons in the name of Yeshua? Jews? Moslems? Buddhists? Hindu? No, it's *Christians.* And to these Christians, He is saying "I never knew you." He never knew them, and they never knew Him, because the Yeshua they were worshipping was not the real Yeshua. Instead, it was a Greco-Roman "Jesus" who "freed" us from His own commandments, and who had "replaced" His people Israel with something new: "the church."

It came as a real shock to me to learn that I had, in very real terms, been a pagan idolator all my life. And yet, here it was in our scriptures, written in black and white. Yeshua gave us the answer to the "mystery of iniquity" that Paul spoke of:

2 Thessalonians 2:7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

And this is why it is a "mystery:" Babylon doesn't know her own identity.

Shimon

[Charles YTK]

Shimon,

You are correct. Christianity worships a god of their own making, which pops out of the scriptures by taking them out of their Hebraic context and making them put different words, doctrines, and laws in the mouth of Messiah; making him the one who destroys the law of god while saying that he did not come to destroy the law.

Setting all that aside, it seems that if one was really walking with the Lord, it would only take about 1 minute of viewing of TBN and other TV ministries to be overwhelmed with the filth of the antichrist spirit. So much of what is preached from the pulpits is complete distortion of the word and yet no one questions it.

This is not to say that there are no true believers out there. It is the system of churchianity, religion with it programs designed by the will of men that is foul and which brings the sheep to destruction.

Charles YTK

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by Shimon
Charles:



Thing of it is, I don't know how I can continue here. It's like participating in a politics forum, but I can't say anything that the supporter of the other political party might object to.

As far as I'm concerned, this was supposed to be a place where we can discuss our beliefs, openly, truthly, and at times, bluntly. If someone takes offense at our beliefs, then that's what the Meeting Place forum is for: to debate those issues.

In *this* forum, we should be able to discuss our beliefs exactly as we see it, but we're being given a gag order. I've been thinking over it for the past few days, and as I see it, no matter what topic I may choose to discuss, I see no way of being able to abide by the implied rule of not "offending" anyone. If I can't even discuss the Eucharist, how am I *ever* going to be able to discuss what the Christmas tree symbolizes, or what it is we're hanging on it?

I'm not trying to offend or insult anyone, but as the same time, I *must* be given the right to state what I believe to be true. If I am not given that right, then what's the purpose of being here at all?

Shimon

This is true and I see your concerns; please remember that there are many here in agreement with you as well.&nbsp; This is a new forum and the kinks will surely be worked out!&nbsp; Please don't give up as I really appreciate the things you speak of and it is my desire to have a place where these things can be discussed.&nbsp;

You have a great purpose for being here and I personally can testify to that.

&nbsp;

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by Charles YTK
Shimon,

You are correct. Christianity worships a god of their own making, which pops out of the scriptures by taking them out of their Hebraic context and making them put different words, doctrines, and laws in the mouth of Messiah; making him the one who destroys the law of god while saying that he did not come to destroy the law.

Setting all that aside, it seems that if one was really walking with the Lord, it would only take about 1 minute of viewing of TBN and other TV ministries to be overwhelmed with the filth of the antichrist spirit. So much of what is preached from the pulpits is complete distortion of the word and yet no one questions it.

This is not to say that there are no true believers out there. It is the system of churchianity, religion with it programs designed by the will of men that is foul and which brings the sheep to destruction.

Charles YTK

Remember, not all believe this that are Christians.

That's why we all need to have a forum like this where we can speak the truth to one another in love.&nbsp; The Law is a topic that has been tossed aside and I think it's time to bring it back the way it was meant to be.&nbsp;

Side note: we are&nbsp;all used at such a time as this and I encourage ALL in this forum to be patient with one another.&nbsp; I&nbsp;have grown to love the personalities here and I know that God is working&nbsp;in each of our lives to learn more about Him.&nbsp; We may not see it at times, but a family has to go through some tough-to-digest meat before they can take in the full picture.&nbsp; DON'T GIVE UP!&nbsp; God&nbsp;looks upon His people and desires to see us work through issues and I know He is going to bless us for daring to work through years of past pain and misconceptions.

God Bless you, friends!&nbsp;

[Pray4Isrel]

Side note: we are all used at such a time as this and I encourage ALL in this forum to be patient with one another. I have grown to love the personalities here and I know that God is working in each of our lives to learn more about Him. We may not see it at times, but a family has to go through some tough-to-digest meat before they can take in the full picture. DON'T GIVE UP! God looks upon His people and desires to see us work through issues and I know He is going to bless us for daring to work through years of past pain and misconceptions.

God Bless you, friends!

[Pray4Isrel]

Mark 9:50 "Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another."

God Bless Every One of You!

[Higher Truth]

David Stern is the translator of the Comple Jewish Bible. He is a Mesianic Jew, and his Bible is very popular among Messianic Jewish believers, because it restores a Jewish entity to the Gospels. He also wrote a book called "The Jewish New Testament Commentary" In this book he attempts to explain the Hebrew Idioms behind the Greek writings, from a Jewish perspective. Here are some 'excerpts' from this book:

Rev 2:9 I know your works, and the affliction, and the poverty; but you are rich. And I know the evil speaking of those saying themselves to be Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I give out of the synagogue of Satan those saying themselves to be Jews, and they are not, but they lie. Behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they shall know that I loved you.

" Yochanan (John) writes about Gentiles who call themselves Jews but aren't - on the contrary, they are a synagogue of satan, the adversary, Perhaps they, like the gentile Judaizers of the book of Galatians, adopted a smattering of Jewish practices and tried to force them on Gentile believers. They may have subjected themselves to a legalistic perversion of the Torah. They apparently organized a pseudo Messianic synagogue. Their false doctrine probably led them to wrong and immoral behavior, since false doctrine usually does. They probably drew Gentile Christians away from the truth, and thereby threatened the Messianic community. Virtually all commentators ignore the obvious and straightforward interpretation that Yochanan (John) is talking here about Gentiles who pretend to be Jews."

"Should it nevertheless be thought improbable that Gentiles would call themselves Jews, Hebrews or Israelites, consider the following modern examples. The 'British Israelites' regard the British as the Ten Lost Tribes. The Mormons not only consider themselves to be the Ten Lost Tribes but regard themselves as Jews and everyone else (real Jews included) as Gentiles. A sect of mostly American-born blacks consider themselves the true Hebrews; several thousand of them are living in Israel. All of these are outside the pale of Christianity. In addition, scattered about are well-meaning Gentile Christians whose strong identification with and love for the Jewish people has made them believe,without a shred of evidence,that they are actually Jewish themselves.In fact, some years ago a congregation was expelled from the American Lutheran Church because, along with a general drift into weirdness, its pastor and dozens of its members claimed to have heard from God that they were really Jews; many even said they knew which tribe they belonged to."

"Without exception this phenomenon of Gentiles imagining and asserting they are Jewish when they are not leads to strange patterns of doctrine and practice. Such people are not accepted by Jews as Jewish; nor, as this verse shows, are they to be accepted by Christians as Christian. Isolated and self-defensive, they can easily become prideful, neither obeying the Torah nor showing brotherly love to Yeshua's (Jesus) real followers. It is easy to see why Yeshua (Jesus) does not regard them as harmlessly neutral but pegs them as the synagogue of the adversary."

(All above writings in "quotes" from the Jewish New Testament Commentary, by David Stern)

[Blindfaith]

I would just like to pop in here for a moment and give a little bit of advice.

There are many of us who would like a better understanding of the Messianic faith, and are open to learning.&nbsp; But, speaking strictly for myself, I don't like seeing my Christian faith being slammed.&nbsp; You expect respect in here, I suggest that it be given in return.&nbsp; It's a lot easier to catch flies with honey rather than vinegar.&nbsp; Let's not be sour here, okay?

Thanks.

[Shimon]

blindfaith:

Nobody here is trying to "slam" anyone's Christian faith. But, at the same time, if we thought it was okay to eat pork and shellfish, disregard the Sabbath and holy days, celebrate Christmas and Easter, etc. we wouldn't be Messianic Jewish in the first place. We'd just be members of a denominational church. This is what defines us, and distinguishes us from any other. If we cannot discuss it, what's the point of being here at all?

Like I said before, if you have a problem with someone, take the issue to a moderator.

But what do we do if the person is a moderator? Who do we take it to then?

I've had one moderator take the eraser to any message she disagreed with, and threaten me with banishment. All I was trying to do was examine church history, providing the writings of the early church founders, in order to point out how certain beliefs and practices originated. I was told it was "Catholic-bashing" even though I went so far back in history that there was no such thing as "Catholic vs. Protestant." Both are descended from the same origins. I was examining early Christianity, not early Catholicism.

I've made no unsubstantiated claims, everything I've said has been backed up with evidence. So what am I supposed to do? If I know that something is sinful, am I supposed to say that it's not sinful? Am I supposed to say "it's sinful, but don't worry about it?"

Torah-obedience is what defines us. It's what we know to be true. How can we be expected to say that it's okay to disobey it? I don't understand.

EDIT: By the way, I know and understand Rule #7 of the board, and I don't mean to break it. It's just that this seems to be a matter that may need to be addressed in public.

It may be that this board was created without a real understanding of just what exactly Messianic Judaism *is* and what our message is. We don't believe it to be a trivial doctrinal issue, but an issue of salvific importance.

Somehow, we need to be able to discuss amongst ourselves how we can participate here, because I foresee that most of what we have to say will be controversial. We're not saying that anyone is a "bad" Christian or anything like that, but we *do* see some serious errors in Christian teachings, and it is our desire to remove ourselves from those erroneous teachings. It is a foundational issue which defines and distinguishes us from other congregations.

Shimon

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by Shimon

It may be that this board was created without a real understanding of just what exactly Messianic Judaism *is* and what our message is. We don't believe it to be a trivial doctrinal issue, but an issue of salvific importance.

Shimon

(Pray4Isrel gently, and with peaceful intentions, puts&nbsp;her mod hat on)

I disagree.

Just because we wish to remain civil in&nbsp;the discussions by not grouping all people under one category (ie your references to Christianity) does not mean that this board was created without a real understanding of Messianic Judaism.

On many seperate occasions it has been posted as reminders to all to remain civil and to speak the truth in love.&nbsp; If this cannot be done then the issue goes deeper.&nbsp; I have yet to see others complain about this particular forum.&nbsp; Many enjoy it here.&nbsp;

I would greatly appreciate it if we could continue a discussion without each thread being turned into a "taking sides" episode.&nbsp; We can all learn something from one another.&nbsp; Let's please be respectful.&nbsp; Speaking the truth in love is a must.

(Pray4Isrel takes the mod hat and puts it back in hopes to not have to wear it any time soon)

[Shimon]

Pray4Isrel:

What have I said that was "uncivil?"

Just because we wish to remain civil in the discussions by not grouping all people under one category (ie your references to Christianity) does not mean that this board was created without a real understanding of Messianic Judaism.


What term should I use to refer to non-Torah-observant worshippers of Yeshua?

Was it okay for the Israelites to build a golden calf and dedicate a feast to YHVH? Was He pleased?

Was it okay for the Samaritans to worship on Mount Gerazim rather than in Jerusalem?

Was it okay for Adam to eat from a tree he was told not to eat from?

Were any of these transgressions "minor" or "trivial?" Do the scriptures ever indicate that these transgressions were of lesser importance than theft, rape and murder?

Shimon

[Blindfaith]

Back to the OP ~

&nbsp;

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by GreenEyedLady
Praise the Lord my friend saw that light and is no longer studing the JW beliefs.
However, she has found a new church that is messianic jewish. This church seems pretty cool. They celebrate all the jewsih festivals that the early churchs did in the bible (NT).
Why is NOT every christian celebrating these festivals?How improtant are they, and how do YOU feel about them?
GEL

Ok, back to the original topic!

[Shimon]

Pray4Isrel:

Ok, back to the original topic!

We *are* talking about the original subject. She asked this question:

Why is NOT every christian celebrating these festivals?How improtant are they, and how do YOU feel about them?

But when we attempt to answer it and say how important these festivals are, we are considered "offensive."

Shimon

[Blindfaith]

Like we said before, back to the Original Post.

[Shimon]

Okay, back to the original post. The original questions were:

Why is NOT every christian celebrating these festivals?How improtant are they, and how do YOU feel about them?

We've gone to great lengths to answer the first question: "Why is not every Christian celebrating these festivals?" We've gone into great detail in explaining how Christianity separated from its Hebrew roots.

The second question: "How important are they, and how do YOU feel about them?" We believe they are *very* important. Yeshua told us how we are to worship Him. As He said to the Samaritan woman in John Chapter 4, "salvation is of the *Jews*" and we "*must* worship Him in spirit and in truth." Yeshua revealed to the Jews how He is to be worshipped, and therefore we must learn from the Jews how to do it. We cannot adopt traditions and practices of other religions and say we are doing it for Him.

If one believes it is okay to continue disobeying His commandments (Sabbath, Holy Days, Kosher laws, etc.), then it is only logical that it must be okay to lie, cheat, steal, rape and murder. If you can break one commandment, then why not break them all?

If someone claimed to "have faith" in Yeshua, and yet continued to live as a hit-man for the mafia, has he really placed his faith in Yeshua? One might say: "but murder is far more serious sin than breaking the Sabbath!" Says who? The prescribed punishment for both was the same: capital punishment. Many Christians today believe that fornication is a more serious sin that breaking the Sabbath, but the prescribed punishment for fornication was that the transgressor must pay the price of the dowry.

What man considers the greater and lesser sins is not necessarily how God considers them. The wisdom of man is foolishness in the eyes of God.

Shimon

[TheBear]

Shimon,

What is your interpretation of the following scripture?

Romans 14:1-23

1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: "As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God." 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way. 14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

Thanks,
John

[Shimon]

TheBear:

You've quoted the entire chapter which requires a rather lengthy response. So rather than address the entire chapter, I'll address what I think are the main points you are asking about. If there are others, point them out to me I'll answer them too.

Okay, in order to understand this, we need to understand what pagan religions Paul was dealing with in his day:

Romans 14:1-3: Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.

Right here, we can see that the issue in question is those turning to vegetarianism. The issue here wasn't about clean versus unclean meats but about those who are refusing to eat meat and are eating only vegetables. If our brother will only eat vegetables because he considers meat a sin, then we are to respect his weakness and not be a stumbling block to him. Even though we know God gave us meat to eat we shouldn't judge someone less mature in the faith. God had already told us that certain meats, such as lamb and beef, are clean. Paul is telling us that we are not to call "unclean" what the Lord has told us is "clean."

On its face, I suspect the verse refers to the precursors of the Gnostics, who thought that the flesh was an evil thing to be reviled rather than a good thing created by God. It's similar to the Platonic ideal of perfection, and manifested itself in other Platonic systems (including the Manichee philosophy embraced by St. Augustine before his conversion). As a consequence of their contempt for the flesh, they would not marry (as that was a fleshly act relating to the creation of more flesh), and they would not eat flesh.

As further evidence of this, let’s look at what Paul says in his first letter to Timothy.

1 Timothy 4:1-5: The Spirit expressly states that in the acharit-kayamim some people will apostatize from the faith by paying attention to deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come from the hypocrisy of liars whose own consciences have been burned, as if with a red-hot branding iron. They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods which God created to be eaten with thanksgiving by those who have come to trust and to know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing received with thanksgiving needs to be rejected, because the word of God and prayer make it holy.

Okay, first notice that he says that certain people have listened to the teachings of “deceiving spirits,” “demons,” and “liars.” The first teaching that he mentions is that they were forbidding marriage. Marriage is a covenantal relationship between a man and woman which God ordained, and yet there were people teaching that it was a “sin” to marry. The Torah teaches that marriage is good for mankind and strongly encourages it. So, we know that this passage has nothing to do with Torah teachings. Clearly, these “deceiving spirits,” “demons,” and “liars” were teaching *against* Torah. We can see right away that he was dealing with a pagan religion and not Judaism.

Even today, there are some animal-rights activists who are turning to vegetarianism because they believe it is "wrong" to eat other animals.

The distinctions between clean and unclean animals always existed, from Genesis 7:2's "Of every clean beast thou shalt take...." to Revelation 18:2's "...of every unclean spirit, and a hole for every unclean and hated bird." Even in 96 CE when Revelation was written, 'unclean' animals were still distinguished from 'clean' animals; God *never* revoked His kosher laws.

Romans 14:4-6: Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks..

Paul is certainly not telling us that there is no need to observe the biblical holidays. In fact, he even told us to continue to observe the feast of Passover:

1 Corinthians 5:7-8: Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.

In Acts 20:16, we find Paul hurrying to Jerusalem in order to be there in time to celebrate the Feast of Shavuot:

Acts 20:16: For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

What I believe Paul is saying in Romans 14 is that some people considered the Feast of Passover, for instance, as a holier day than other holy days such as Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonment), while others believed that Yom Kippur was a holier day than Passover. Even today, there are some who consider Christmas as a holier day than Easter, while others consider Easter as holier than Christmas.

Shimon

[Shimon]

Another point on the original question of this thread:

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Notice what James is saying here. He's saying: "You say you have faith? Prove it!" If we truly have faith in Yeshua, then we will keep His Torah commandments, because it is by the keeping of His Torah commandments that we prove we have faith in Him. If we obey Him, we prove we have faith, if we do *not* obey His commandments, we prove otherwise.

This is why James went on to say:

James 2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

If we refuse to observe the Sabbath, His festivals, and obey His kosher laws, we are saying: "Lord, I really don't think it's in my best interest to do these things. I think you made a mistake here," or "Lord, I don't think you have Your priorities straight, these commandments seem trivial and unimportant to me" or "Lord, these commandments just aren't practical in this day and age." No matter how you slice it and dice it, that isn't faith.

Shimon

[TheBear]

Shimon,

You say, "If we refuse to observe the Sabbath, His festivals, and obey His kosher laws, we are saying: "Lord, I really don't think it's in my best interest to do these things. I think you made a mistake here," or "Lord, I don't think you have Your priorities straight, these commandments seem trivial and unimportant to me" or "Lord, these commandments just aren't practical in this day and age." No matter how you slice it and dice it, that isn't faith."


But, you just read Romans 14:1-23. Are you simply refusing to see what is plainly stated?

Which part of Romans 14:5 don't you understand?

"5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind."

[Shimon]

TheBear:

But, you just read Romans 14:1-23. Are you simply refusing to see what is plainly stated?

Which part of Romans 14:5 don't you understand?

"5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind."

What I'm saying is that it makes no difference which holy day is "holier" than another, we're still expected to observe them, regardless.

You, on the other hand, are trying to interpret Paul's words to mean that we no longer have to obey Yeshua's commandments. If Paul were saying that, he would not be an emissary of Yeshua.

Take a look here:

Romans 3:1-2: What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, [i]because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.[KJV]

Romans 3:1-2: What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.[NIV]

What is Paul saying here? He is asking "What advantage is there in being a Jew?" He then answers this question by saying "Unto them were committed the oracles of God."

What are the "oracles of God?" Luke tells us in Acts Chapter 7:

Act 7:37-38: This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us[KJV]

Acts 7:37-38: "This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.' He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.[NIV]

The "oracles of God" were given on Mount Sinai -- the Torah.

The Greek word that is used in these verses is "logion." Strong's defines it this way:

3051 logion {log'-ee-on}

from 3052; TDNT - 4:137,505; n n

AV - oracle 4; 4

1) a brief utterance, a divine oracle (doubtless because oracles
were generally brief)
1a) in the NT, the words or utterances of God
1b) of the contents of the Mosaic law

Now take a look at what the writer of Hebrews tells us:

Hebrews 5:11-14: Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.[KJV]

Hebrews 5:11-14: We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. [b][i]In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.[NIV]

The writer of Hebrews spoke prophetically -- the time *has* come when we need to be taught the "oracles of God" (The Torah) all over again. We should be teachers, but instead we are in need of being taught all over again. By whom? By the very people who were entrusted with the "oracles of God:" the Jews.


Shimon

[Higher Truth]

Shimon,

Torah [five books of Moshe] is only a part of the complete work. The 'oracles of God' quote re-appears here as well:

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." (Rom. 3:1-2)

Are the 'oracles' only the Torah? Even though the NT was penned in Greek, was it not still authored by Jews? Many times peole claiming to be Torah observant pick and choose when it comes to the writings of Paul. Is not all scripture inspired? Was Paul not accurate on all accounts?

[Shimon]

Higher Truth:

Torah [five books of Moshe] is only a part of the complete work. The 'oracles of God' quote re-appears here as well:


In a literal sense, that's correct, but in a very real sense of the word, the Torah refers to the entire volume of scripture because all of it teaches Torah.

For instance, if the Torah *only* refers to the first five books, then how is it that Yeshua refers to Psalms as "written in your Torah?"

John 10:34: Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Yeshua was quoting Psalms 82:6:

Psalms 82:6: I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

Clearly, the entire Tanakh was considered "Torah" because every other book of the Tanakh was tested against the Torah to determine whether or not it was Inspired.

Shimon

[Higher Truth]

Shimon,

And we could enter into a discussion about HafTorah [Prophets] and cloud the issue further. The point that I am trying to make is that beating people with the 'Torah observant' sledgehammer does not enlighten anyone, it only alienates them, and I see that occuring here.

[Shimon]

Higher Truth:

And we could enter into a discussion about HafTorah [Prophets] and cloud the issue further. The point that I am trying to make is that beating people with the 'Torah observant' sledgehammer does not enlighten anyone, it only alienates them, and I see that occuring here.

I see it happening too, and I really don't know what to do about it.

The penalty for violating the Sabbath was the same penalty as that for murder: capital punishment. If one continues to break the Sabbath, they might as well be a serial killer because the penalty is exactly the same.

If one claims to have faith in Yeshua and yet continues to live the life of a serial killer, does that person really have faith? How can one claim to have faith if they disobey the Sabbath?

We, in our Western mind, think that murder is a terrible sin, but that breaking the Sabbath is no big deal, but the wisdom of man is foolishness in the eyes of God. It's exactly as Paul told us:

Romans 7:7: What shall we say then? the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Without the Torah, we would have no way of knowing what sin is, or what righteous living is. Without the Torah, we would have no way of knowing that breaking the Sabbath carries the same weight as murder.

The biblical festivals are not "Jewish Festivals," they are [i]Feasts of the Lord [YHVH]. They belong to YHVH, and if we try to take them away from Him, rest assured that He gets angry.

Shimon

[Higher Truth]

Shimon,

Some people would say that the 10 commandments are 'law' and that the others are ceremonial. Let's look at something here. Before the coming of the Messiah, men tried to be keepers of the law. How successful were they?It has been said that from the time that Moses went up tp the mount, until the time Jesus came on the scene, that man, through his experience, had created a burden of law that no one could live under. With written and oral law , I have heard estimates of over one thousand. What is the difference between now and then? The Messiah sent The Spirit, which now convicts us of un-righteous behavior. The word says if you break one you break them all....thank God for Grace and forgiveness. Sometimes the term Torah observent is another way of saying "works of the flesh'. Can we create our own salvation? The answer is in the scriptures.

[Charles YTK]

Salvation has always been through faith. The law is a guide for righteous living. Abraham was saved by faith. but look what is said of him:

Gen 26: [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Faith is the beginning of righteousness. Righteousness is expressed through obedience.

Charles YTK

[Shimon]

Higher Truth:

The Jews *never* believed that they could work their way into Heaven through Torah-obedience. That is a Gentile misunderstanding.

When Paul speaks of "salvation by works" he is referring to "salvation by ritual" -- the ritual of circumcision.

According to the Mishnah:

All Israel have a portion in the world-to-come, for it is written, Your people are all righteous; they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

-- m. Sanhedrin 10.1, the gemara is b.Sanhedrin 90a.

What did the Sages mean by this statement? They often spoke of Israel as wayward and rebellious, so it is clear they do not mean that all Israelites were without sin. Rather, righteousness is attributed to all who are members of the covenant. Righteousness, according to the Sages, was a matter of God’s willingness to reckon the pious deeds of the fathers to their offspring and to forgive and show mercy when Israel sins. Thus, the place in the world-to-come which belongs to all of Israel was a matter of God’s grace, not something earned or merited.

To put it in simpler terms, the Jews believed that salvation was granted to members of the covenant, and that the members of the covenant were the Jews. In order for a Gentile to become a member of the covenant, they believed, he had to become a Jew. Circumcision, then, was the method by which they believed a Gentile could become a Jew.

So, the Jews believed that the status of “righteous” before God and “unrighteous” was determined by one’s status as a Jew.

This, then, is the reason why we read in Acts 15:1 that “certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], ‘Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.’” They believed that the covenant was made only with the Jews, and that Gentiles had to become Jewish through the proselyte ceremony of circumcision, before they could be saved.

It is this same issue that Paul was addressing in the book of Galatians. It is these Jews who Paul refers to as the “circumcision group” or “the circumcision faction” in Titus 1:10. The “circumcision group” or simply “the circumcision” were those Jews who were teaching that one had to become a Jew in order to be a member of the covenant family.

“B’rit milah,” the Hebrew term for “circumcision,” means “covenant in the flesh.” It is the means by which they believed a person became a member of the covenant.

But, in Genesis 17:9-14, we read:

Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner-those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

Here, we read that God instructed Abraham to circumcise his entire household, including those born to him, and those NOT born to him.

God was not creating a nationality here. That wasn’t His intent. His intent was to have a separate, set-apart people who would worship Him in Spirit and in Truth from WHATEVER nationality! He wasn’t designating “Jew vs. Gentile,” but was calling a people unto himself, from whatever nationality they may come from, to separate themselves from the things of the world, and be a holy and righteous people who obeyed His commandments. He was designating “righteous vs. unrighteous,” “worshipers of God” vs. “worshipers of false gods,” “those who chose His salvation” vs “those who did not,” “those who accepted His covenant” vs “those who rejected His covenant.”

"Grace" is not the freedom to live however we please. "Grace" is the empowerment to live a holy and righteous life in a sick and perverse world. We are called to separate ourselves from the things of the world, and become a separate, set-apart people unto God, and it makes no difference what nationality or ethnic status we come from.

Within His covenant family – His separate, set-apart people – there is no distinction between “Jew” or “Greek.” One’s ethnicity or nationality has absolutely no bearing on one’s status before God. The only status that makes a hill of beans of difference is the status of “in Messiah.”

This is what Paul meant when he said:

Galatians 3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

There is neither Jew nor Greek because *BOTH* are one in Messiah!

Circumcision, then, is the sign by which we designate which group we belong to: God’s people, or not His people. It is just like the lamb’s blood that was placed on the doorposts in Egypt – its purpose is to distinguish those who accept His salvation that the spirit of death may pass over us, and those who do *not* accept His salvation and choose death. By being circumcised, we are declaring “I’m one of His people.”

"Gentile," then, doesn't mean "not Jewish," it means "of the world" as opposed to "separate and set apart from the world."

Throughout the Torah, God made it clear that there was One Torah For All, whether Jew or Gentile:

Leviticus 16:29: And [this] shall be a statute for ever unto you: [that] in the seventh month, on the tenth [day] of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, [whether it be] one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you

Leviticus 17:12: Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

Leviticus 18:26: Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit [any] of these abominations; [neither] any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you

Leviticus 19:34: [But] the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I [am] the LORD your God.

There was no distinction between "Jew" and "Gentile" among God's people. There was no set of laws given to "Jew" and a different set given to "Gentile."

So, when Paul said "let him not be circumcised," what he was trying to say is: "Don't think you have to become a Jew, because that has no bearing on your status of 'righteous before God.' It is your *faith* that gets you into the covenant, and not your ethnic status." He isn't saying "don't become circumcised," he's saying "it makes no difference whether you are Jew or Greek!

So, 1Cor 7:18-19 could be just as accurately interpreted as:

1 Corinthians 7:18-19: Was any man called already "Jew?" Let him not become "Greek". Has anyone been called "Greek?" Let him not be "Jewish." "Jewish" is nothing, and "Greek" is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God {i.e. having the status of "in Messiah" ).

So, he wasn't talking about the *act* of circumcision per se, he was talking about the creation of a "Jew" from a "Greek" through the ritual of circumcision.

Shimon

[Higher Truth]

Shimon,

I find all of these writings interesting, but the doctrine that you are quoting is a mixture of Messian Judaism, and other doctrine. This is very confusing to the Christian onlookers, and really is not any representation of the Messianic Judaism that I know. You may attend a Messianic Jewish congregation, but you are assimilating teachings from an outside source. Once again, the only thing that you are succeeding at is alienating people, and giving them a bad taste for what they feel is 'true' Messianic Judaism.
Where you are going is a slippery slope. I have read many documents by people professing to be Messianic with statements like "anti-nomian x-tians'[refusing to say the name Christ because they consider it from a 'pagan' source'. Or titles like 'sun-worshippers'. Remember, we are accountable for EVERY word we speak in this life. Check your motives.

[Shimon]

Higher Truth:

On what basis are you claiming that I am "mixing" Messianic Judaism and other doctrine? Is that your own personal opinion? From the posts you have written, I don't think you have a good understanding of what Messianic Judaism really is. I know you probably disagree with that, but I believe it to be so.

In any case, let's look at what you've referred to as "the burden that no man can bear:"

When Moses gave the Torah to the children of Israel, he told them that these commandments were "not too difficult for them."

Deuteronomy 30:11: Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

Yeshua Himself echoed this same statement when He said:

Matthew 11:29-30: Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

And the Apostle John confirmed it by s