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insaneinthebrain
29th March 2005, 11:44 AM
Since you all wanted to discuss it, here it is. ;)

Jude 1

The Warnings of History to the Ungodly

1Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:


2May mercy and peace and love be multiplied to you.

3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.

4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.

9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

12These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;

13wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.

14It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,

15to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

16These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.

Keep Yourselves in the Love of God

17But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,


18that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."

19These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.

20But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

22And have mercy on some, who are doubting;

23save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

24Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Sephania
29th March 2005, 11:57 AM
First, Can we all agree this Judah is the same Judah,brother of Ya'akov, brother of Yeshua?

Yes indeed there is much history here, earthly, but also heavenly, where did he get this knowledge from?

Who are these "certain persons" are they of old, as some proclaim? Were these, those who Yeshua warned about? Do you think that they are still around today and who in our history ( since the resurection) do we know that might have been one of these?

I like the analogy of a hidden reef, for those who are sea-sauvy you will know just how dangerous that can be. It is worst than that which sunk the Titanic.

I have recently become aware of just such persons, and I call them dilutions, or dilutors. They have the same affect.

debi b
29th March 2005, 12:38 PM
4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed...
He is concerned.

5Now I desire to remind you...that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

First history lesson. Jude certainly did not think that to follow Adonai during this timeframe was acceptable to do without faith. Perhaps a discussion about where in Torah this is pointed out would be appropriate here?

visionary
29th March 2005, 01:49 PM
3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. Faith that was once handed down for all is contained in the Words of the Torah.

simchat_torah
29th March 2005, 06:26 PM
6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
See Genesis 6.

Sephania
29th March 2005, 06:38 PM
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,




It is interesting when you look up the original word for abode used above and here in the KJV


1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate,but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Oiketerion -

a dwelling place, habitation
of the body as a dwelling place for the spirit




Here is one other place the same word is used but it is translated "house".

2 Cor 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

visionary
29th March 2005, 07:36 PM
4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. People have taken license with God's grace for their sins, thereby think that they can now committ sin with immunity. Well, I noticed them. I characterizes these people as clouds without water—all talk, dry theology with no evidence that the justification that is already theirs is doing anything in their lives.

debi b
30th March 2005, 01:35 PM
I think it is interesting that he says in verse 5 I want to REMIND you. They already knew it was not acceptable to not have faith (as it applies through all time) to follow Adonai. This was not a new idea.

About Moshe it was understood:
Numbers 12:7 My servant Moses [is] not so, who [is] faithful in all mine house.
Hebrews 3:5 And Moses verily [was] faithful in all his house, as a servant...

And about Abraham it was understood:
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Sephania
30th March 2005, 01:51 PM
Violation of Rules, sorry :blush:

insaneinthebrain
2nd April 2005, 03:52 PM
Is the OP participating in this or????
Eventually. ;) There are two things limiting me at the moment:

1) I've been a little burned out on CF, so I've been around less.
2) I've never actually read Jude. :sorry:

Once I handle #2, I'll participate. ;)

visionary
2nd April 2005, 04:47 PM
8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. Just by dreaming wicked thoughts, a person can defile flesh.....we are not to lust after angels for sexual encounters.

chunkofcoal
3rd April 2005, 10:21 PM
4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.


The bold part contains "prographo" - which is "written aforetime" and "palai" which is "of old". In Thayers lexicon it says, "of old set forth or designated beforehand (in the scriptures of the Old Testament and prophecies of Enoch) unto this condemnation."
Yeshua taught about things written aforetime - example in Matthew 26:24 He said, "The Son of man goeth as it is written of him" and in Mark 9:12-13 He said, "Elias verily cometh first and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him."
Thinking about this, Enoch got to look at the heavenly tablets - He said, "And I observed the heavenly tablets, and read everything which was written thereon and understood everything, and read the book of all the deeds of mankind, and of all the children of flesh that shall be upon the earth to the remotest generations." (Book of Enoch)
Something Enoch prophesied about - "And now I know this mystery, that sinners will alter and pervert the words of righteousness in many ways, and will speak wicked words, and lie, and practise great deceits, and write books concerning their words."

Torah
4th April 2005, 04:02 AM
This is a study on the book of Jude you might like.
Lamb & Lion Ministries
August 2004 Issue -
The Book of Jude: "The Most Ignored Warning in the Bible"


http://www.lionlamb.net/Yavoh/2004/print/Aug2004PN.htm

chunkofcoal
4th April 2005, 04:19 PM
Thanks for the link, Torah. :thumbsup: Interesting article.

visionary
4th April 2005, 07:54 PM
Quote:




8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.



Just by dreaming wicked thoughts, a person can defile flesh.....we are not to lust after angels for sexual encounters.Some people wonder what is wrong about lusting in the heart. If the person is stimulating themselves thinking of the deed, they are putting themselves in a position for wicked angels to molest them.

MyZz
5th April 2005, 07:09 AM
Thanks for the link Torah...very interesting article :)

debi b
6th April 2005, 11:21 AM
11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

These ones he is warning them about he compares to:

Cain

Balaam

Korah

What do we understand about each of these examples?

debi b
7th April 2005, 12:02 PM
Bereshit (Genesis) 4 talks about the offerings that Cain and Abel brought. Cain brought fruit and Abel brought firstborn of his flock. Adonai regarded Abel’s offering but not Cain’s. What is interesting is the conversation that Adonai has with Cain directly after this.

Bereshit 4:6-7
And Adonai said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your countenance fallen? If you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and yet you may rule over him.

The implication in my mind is that Cain did not do what he should have. If you do well you will be accepted ( Hebrew = elevated). If you don’t you missed the mark (sin). But you have a choice and can rule over it. The next thing that Cain does is kill his brother. Adonai asks a rhetorical question (where is your brother?) the purpose of which seems to be to give him an opportunity to confess and repent. And he does neither.

debi b
8th April 2005, 12:08 PM
What about Balaam?