Communion, Lord's Supper, should I?

[mjterry87]

Shabbat Shalom, and Chag Purim also. I just got off the phone with my Grandmother who I have not spent time with in a long time. Well, my cousin is here from Orlando (about 1hr 30min from my house), and I would like to spend time with the both of them, so she offered me to spend the night with them at her house, and go to church with them both in the morning. She goes to a Church of Christ, that well, umm, to say the least I really disagree with what there doctrine is. Anyways, I can put up with the "stuff", for a lack of a better word, that they teach, but what about the Lord's supper, Communion? My Grandmother strongly feels that one should take communion EVERY Sunday. But the thing is that it is a pegan element that was added into the church, and I know that. And the fact that I know it is pegan, and to do it is a sin, correct? I don't want to hurt her feelings by not taking it, but then again I want to do what HaShem has commanded me to do, follow Torah, which communion is anti torah. I have not been to a church in almost 6 months, and now that I think of it, I am going to have a really hard time there. Should I cancel the church part of my visit? Should I take communion? Help!!!!!!!:cry: :confused:

[visionary]

Oh... I hate getting in situations like that...love the relatives... hate to get dragged into something that doesn't sit well with my faith in Yeshua.

I am of the avoidance variety.... so my suggestion is catch up with her after services.

[Henaynei]

visionary has a good idea - if you can explain that you have some studying to do or some other task that will keep you until after church....

personally, I fugure that I'm going to have to tell folks sometime and situations like this grant the opportunity - perhaps you can call her on the phne and explain how in your love and respect you don't want to cause her any embarrassment or worry/pain - and that you'd love to spend as much time as possible with them, but you have spiritual convictions that hinder your taking the "communion."

OR you can just determine between you and G-d that it is only an act of community and fellowship with a body of believers (not unlike some of the stuff Sha'ul discussed in Acts) and participate on that level - leaving the explaining for another day........

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Afterward he was revealed to the Eleven themselves as they sat at the table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they didn't believe those who had seen him after he had risen. He said to them, "Go into all the world, and preach the Good News to the whole creation. He who believes and is immersed will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned. These signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new languages; they will take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it will in no way hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." So then the Lord Yeshua, after he had spoken to them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. They went out, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed. Amein.
(Mar 16:14-20 HNV)

But concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need that anything be written to you. For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. For when they are saying, "Peace and safety," then sudden destruction will come on them, like birth pains on a pregnant woman; and they will in no way escape. But you, brothers, aren't in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief. You are all children of light, and children of the day. We don't belong to the night, nor to darkness, so then let's not sleep, as the rest do, but let's watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep in the night, and those who are drunk are drunk in the night. But let us, since we belong to the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and, for a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God didn't appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Therefore exhort one another, and build each other up, even as you also do. But we beg you, brothers, to know those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you, and to respect and honor them in love for their work's sake. Be at peace among yourselves. We exhort you, brothers, admonish the disorderly, encourage the fainthearted, support the weak, be patient toward all. See that no one returns evil for evil to anyone, but always follow after that which is good, for one another, and for all. Rejoice always. Pray without ceasing. In everything give thanks, for this is the will of God in Messiah Yeshua toward you. Don't quench the Spirit. Don't despise prophesies. Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good. Abstain from every form of evil. May the God of shalom himself sanctify you completely. May your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah. He who calls you is faithful, who will also do it. Brothers, pray for us. Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss. I solemnly charge you by the Lord that this letter be read to all the holy brothers. The grace of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah be with you. Amein.
(1Th 5:1-28 HNV)

Shabbat Shalom mjterry87,

I felt the two passages above might help. When I first came to the knowledge of Messianic Judaism I became in a sense hostile toward many Churches that base their beliefs on Doctrines of MAN. Well since then I have a new look at the WHOLE, in that many that are Believers in this world are FERVANT for the MESSIAH, which is GREAT, but those that TEACH the MASSES don't know that they themselves are missing something in the teachings they teach. So basically blind leading the blind yet Fervant Followers of Messiah. Should we attack the belief they grew up in? NO! We shoud be AN EXAMPLE that they can see that we are actually walking the way Yeshua walked and they will take NOTICE. Yet that isn't all, YOU must PRAY for these people to see the TRUE LIGHT so that they TOO can do the same. And adventually OUR KING will come and show everyone the TRUTH, the whole TRUTH and nothing but the TRUTH and HEAL the LOT of Em.

Be ye therefore Humble and show that Agape Ruach HaKodesh has instilled in your heart for HaShem and go get em like a Humble follower of the MOST HIGH who is lead by Ruach HaKodesh in the FAITH(TRUST) of Yeshua HaMashiach.

We were once a Child and spoke like a child. Yet even I think of myself as still a Child in understanding the Will of the MOST HIGH Elohim in many areas. Who am I to question anyone elses thoughts, I am no one in this world. Yet I am someone to our Messiah. So I tread and go forth and share what thoughts that come to mind when reading others posts and try to not go to far over board in my CAPS for emphasis(Not yelling) when explaining those thoughts that have accumalated from years of studies and Prayer.

Dont' forget PRAYER, Don't forget PRAYER, Don't forget PRAYER,

Shabbat Shalom,

Tag

P.S. I have one more that came to me: Ask and it will be given to you(of course you are Seeking). Ask HaShem to GUIDE you and open your mouth with the words HE wants to come out when talking with your grandmother or anyone for that matter. And HE will help you. Have confidence(TRUST) that HE will. HE doesn't want anyone to perish.

[mjterry87]

Well, I changed plans, not just because of that, but because I have been sick and my Grandmothr gets sick easy. Thanks though, guys. By the way, my Grandmother knows that I am a Messianic, and she accepts it to. Infact she is glad, so all is good. :) Shalom :wave:

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Well, I changed plans, not just because of that, but because I have been sick and my Grandmothr gets sick easy. Thanks though, guys. By the way, my Grandmother knows that I am a Messianic, and she accepts it to. Infact she is glad, so all is good. :) Shalom :wave:

Rom 8:26-39 HNV In the same way, the Spirit also helps our weaknesses, for we don't know how to pray as we ought. But the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings which can't be uttered. (27) He who searches the hearts knows what is on the Spirit's mind, because he makes intercession for the holy ones according to God. (28) We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. (29) For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (30) Whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified. (31) What then shall we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? (32) He who didn't spare his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how would he not also with him freely give us all things? (33) Who could bring a charge against God's chosen ones? It is God who justifies. (34) Who is he who condemns? It is Messiah who died, yes rather, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. (35) Who shall separate us from the love of Messiah? Could oppression, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (36) Even as it is written, "For your sake we are killed all day long. We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter." (37) No, in all these things, we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. (38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, (39) nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Messiah Yeshua our Lord.

Shabbat Shalom,

Tag

[Mikhail]

My Grandmother strongly feels that one should take communion EVERY Sunday. But the thing is that it is a pegan element that was added into the church, and I know that. And the fact that I know it is pegan, and to do it is a sin, correct? I don't want to hurt her feelings by not taking it, but then again I want to do what HaShem has commanded me to do, follow Torah, which communion is anti torah.:cry: :confused:

Can you or someone please explain wha they mean here I undetstand fro instance that Roman Catholic Communion is ungodly? Due to their recognising it as the literal body and blood.
But I have never heard any arguments against it as it is praticed in evangelical/pentocostal circles?
Thanks,
Mikhail

[Henaynei]

No one said that the practices of either the Roman or the Protestant, or any other Christian churches are "ung-dly" - what was said is that some Messianics are sensitive to the presence of certain practices that have become part of the Christian tradition around the "Communion" or the "Eucharist" that originated outside of scriptural influnce. Some of us choose to not participate in those practices. We are still brothers and respect those whose service to HaShem includes those traditions.

[Velcro]

I run into this problem when I attend my husband's church on occasion. Since I work for his church, I find out when they are doing communion and try to avoid those days, but that is not always successful. I have now been there often enough that they don't seem so offended that I do not participate.

I am glad you were provided an opportunity to gracefully get out of it this time, but it is likely to come up again. :) I think you may have to figure out how you feel about it and make a firm decision, so that when it does come up, you will be prepared.

[Mikhail]

I run into this problem when I attend my husband's church on occasion. Since I work for his church, I find out when they are doing communion and try to avoid those days, but that is not always successful. I have now been there often enough that they don't seem so offended that I do not participate.

I am glad you were provided an opportunity to gracefully get out of it this time, but it is likely to come up again. :) I think you may have to figure out how you feel about it and make a firm decision, so that when it does come up, you will be prepared.

I still have no idea what it is that some Messianics are not comfortable with?
If it is outside of the rules to reply publicly then please send me a private message.
Todah,
Mikhail

[Bon]

I still have no idea what it is that some Messianics are not comfortable with?
If it is outside of the rules to reply publicly then please send me a private message.
Todah,
Mikhail

Most of the MJ's here are Torah Observant and choose to adhere to the commandments of Yahweh ONLY.

Communion is a man-made obervance created from

1 Cornthians 11:23-26
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

26For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes.


This is the meal that Yahshua ate with His disciples just before His death.

The instruction He gave His disciples was to partake of this memorial at Passover at the appointed time given by Yahweh (14 day of Nissan) annually.

Shalom from Bon

[MyZz]

I'd be interested to know these too so if anyone is gonna post private can they please post me too ?:)

I havent been to church for a few months now but had been wondering what to do if I suddenly have to go as in for example a wedding or a funeral where communion is taken.My personal view at this moment in time is unclear,but if the occasion were to present itself I would be in a dilemma.I also darent go further in my explanations in case it violates forum rules.
And for the benefit of those who may be under the impression that if they do go they have to go all the way and have communion/eucharist.
In a roman catholic church if you dont go to communion it is not seen as a big thing since we are not meant to go to communion if we are in a state of what is known mortal sin(ie serious) sin or if you havent been to confess for a while.so it is common to see people not attending communion and its no big deal.

[Mikhail]

Most of the MJ's here are Torah Observant and choose to adhere to the commandments of Yahweh ONLY.

Communion is a man-made obervance created from

1 Cornthians 11:23-26
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

26For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes.


This is the meal that Yahshua ate with His disciples just before His death.

The instruction He gave His disciples was to partake of this memorial at Passover at the appointed time given by Yahweh (14 day of Nissan) annually.

Shalom from Bon

I here what you are saying I am open to consider anything if it can be proven from the scriptures. A few things, firstly how do you explain where Paul says that they should not partake of the Lord's supper in an unworthy way and he also says do you not have home in which to eat.

This hardly fits and an annual approach to the rememberance. Also considering that it was not the actuall passover meal that he did this on but the night or was it 2 before the 7th Day of Passover on which he was already crucufied and buried.
Regards,
Mikhail

[Yehuda]

My Grandmother strongly feels that one should take communion EVERY Sunday. But the thing is that it is a pegan element that was added into the church, and I know that. And the fact that I know it is pegan, and to do it is a sin, correct?

Why do you think the table of communion in the Church is a pagan element that was added into the Church? And why do you think it is a sin to partake of it?

[Bon]

I here what you are saying I am open to consider anything if it can be proven from the scriptures. A few things, firstly how do you explain where Paul says that they should not partake of the Lord's supper in an unworthy way and he also says do you not have home in which to eat.

This hardly fits and an annual approach to the rememberance.

Why not?

1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

Before Passover begins, there is a thorough search for leaven in the house.
Leaven symbolises sin and as we partake of the unleavened bread (symbolising Yahshua's pure and spotless body) and the wine (representing His blood) we must examine our hearts to find any sin and get rid of it by confessing it to the Lord.


Also considering that it was not the actuall passover meal that he did this on but the night or was it 2 before the 7th Day of Passover on which he was already crucufied and buried.
Regards,
Mikhail

Matthew 26:17
Now on the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, "Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?"
18 And He said, "Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, "The Teacher says, "My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.""'
19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover.

Yahshua partook of the meal with His disciples on the night before the usual Passover seder because He had to fulfill scripture and become the Passover Lamb, slain at the precise hour that all the Lambs were slain for the Passover meal.

Matthew 26:30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Scholars agree that they were singing from the Psalms. The Hallel, sung at Passover, begins with Psalm 113 and continues through to Psalm 118.

An essential part of the Passover ritual was the singing of the Hallel. Hallel means Praise God! And the Hallel consisted of Psalms 113-118, which are all praising psalms.

At different points of the Passover Feast these psalms were sung in sections; and at the very end there was sung The Great Hallel, which is Psalm 136. That would have been the hymn they sang before they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Shalom from Bon

[Zacharias]

I don't know what your beliefs are on this verse...

1 Corinthians 8:1-13
1*Now about food sacrificed to idols: we know that, as you say, "We all have knowledge." Yes, that is so, but "knowledge" puffs a person up with pride; whereas love builds up. 2*The person who thinks he "knows" something doesn't yet know in the way he ought to know. 3*However, if someone loves God, God knows him.

4*So, as for eating food sacrificed to idols, we "know" that, as you say, "An idol has no real existence in the world, and there is only one God." 5*For even if there are so-called "gods," either in heaven or on earth - as in fact there are "gods" and "lords" galore - 6*yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things come and for whom we exist; and one Lord, Yeshua the Messiah, through whom were created all things and through whom we have our being.

7*But not everyone has this knowledge. Moreover, some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat food which has been sacrificed to them, they think of it as really affected by the idol; and their consciences, being weak, are thus defiled. 8*Now food will not improve our relationship with God - we will be neither poorer if we abstain nor richer if we eat. 9*However watch out that your mastery of the situation does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10*You have this "knowledge"; but suppose someone with a weak conscience sees you sitting, eating a meal in the temple of an idol. Won't he be built up wrongly to eat this food which has been sacrificed to idols? 11*Thus by your "knowledge" this weak person is destroyed, this brother for whom the Messiah died; 12*and so, when you sin against the brothers by wounding their conscience when it is weak, you are sinning against the Messiah! 13*To sum up, if food will be a snare for my brother, I will never eat meat again, lest I cause my brother to sin. (CJB)

but I would think (according to how I render the chapter) that partaking communion (in a Church that's trying to honor G-d) couldn't be any worse than partaking a meal sacrificed to idols. :)

God bless, Freak4JC

[visionary]

I would think (according to how I render the chapter) that partaking communion (in a Church that's trying to honor G-d) couldn't be any worse than partaking a meal sacrificed to idols.

God bless, Freak4JCI agree.

[Mikhail]

Why not?

1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.


I can understand your view if you have been taught this all your life. However we are all learning that things we assumed they meant and what they originally meant in the Hebrew context is not what we thought they were. I have had understanding enlarged because of this in the last 19 months.

But it strikes me that what Yeshua was talking about was the Kaddush prayer over the wine and the bread where they give thanks to Yehovah who brings forth wine and bread from the earth.

This is still done especially on Shabbat meals. I am still learning about this sort of thing so any input from our hebrew brethren would be valued.
Shalom,
Mikhail

[visionary]

I think we can have a concensus that

1) this is not just the night before Passover event... that we are to do this in remembrance of Him.

2) this is not euchrist sytle of communion

3) that this is more in line with Mikhail says But it strikes me that what Yeshua was talking about was the Kaddush prayer over the wine and the bread where they give thanks to Yehovah who brings forth wine and bread from the earth.

[Henaynei]

well, not really - for we are convinced that it was the singular event - not the everyday blessing to which Yeshua was referring.

We hold the memorial as part of the Passover Seder - at the same spot that he did....

For you see - if it had been about the blessing over the wine and the bread that Yeshua was speaking - well both happen several times prior to the one where He actually made the memorial - so if it was about everytime we did the hamotzi and boray pri hagofen then why not start with the first ones of the meal and then repeat it each time both were done?

no, for us it is about the memorial done at the 3rd cup, the one "AFTER the meal", not before the meal (as is the blessing of which you speak) - the Cup of Redemption.

so, no, I'm sorry, but we don't have a concensus if our vote is included ;)

May HaShem bless you whenever and how ever you choose to do it.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[visionary]

I think we can have a concensus that

1) this is not just the night before Passover event... that we are to do this in remembrance of Him.

2) this is not euchrist sytle of communion

3) that this is more in line with Mikhail sayswith a change to Henny's "after the meal"

[Jasmine-FL]

Yeshua did not do this as a passover seder he couldn't celebrate it before pessach night or he would be violating Torah which we know He didn't. He also said he would not partake in that cup with the disciples until the world to come and that reinforces this idea. He was the pessach. So the last supper he had with the disciples could have been a memorial in honor of His pessach, but it couldn't have been pessach itself. So since the last supper was not a pessach seder itself but a memorial of the pessach then why do we have to celebrate it only on pessach night?

Luv,
~J~

[Henaynei]

it was a "teaching seder" - often held by rabbis with their students before sending them to their homes to celebrate as directed by scripture - they held a tesching seder - not unlike what MJ rabbis do even today in the church community - where nuances and a rabbi's particular insight were passed on to their disciples - so that they could keep passover with these additional insighrts and kavannah..... this is what Yeshua did - He taught us a deeper HOW and WHY in the keeping of Passover.........

[Mikhail]

1Cr 11:33 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=11&verse=33&version=kjv)Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. [/url][u]1Cr 11:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=11&verse=34&version=kjv)And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

If a Man is to eat at home first does this not show that were not doing the Passover Meal each time?

And before that Paul says he passed on what was revealed to him by Yeshua, as often as you drink it, do it in rememberance of me. Now considering that wine was a fairly regular occurence at meals is what he saying?

Remember what ts cost him to bring forth the bread (his flesh that he sacrificed) and the wine (his blood of atonement) now keep in mind these 2 things represent also his body that was striped that we might be healed and his blood purchased us our freedom from conviction for disobedience. Notice that Saul is saying in this very context that, that is why their are many sick among you and some now sleep.
Why?
Because they are not recognising these things whenever they partake of the wine and the bread? They think it is just a sip and a nibble to remeber the event, but it is more it has to be the personal recognition that he paid a price for our healing and a price for our redemption.
Shalom,
Mikhail

[Henaynei]

1Cr 11:33 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=11&verse=33&version=kjv)Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. 1Cr 11:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=11&verse=34&version=kjv)And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

If a Man is to eat at home first does this not show that were not doing the Passover Meal each time? have you ever been to a seder?? LOL - it is wise to eat before you go because they notoriously start late and it i a long time before you get any real food (i.e. the actual meal)!!

In addition, the Corinthians were largely goyim - it is reasonable to think that many did not know about the seder and likely were not privy to the conventions of restraint that are part of the seder - if they came hungry (knowing there was going to be a meal) they may well have started to eat inappropriately...... thus the admonition and correction by Sha'ukl - he certainly would not have had to so instruct Jewish believers :)

[Mikhail]

Some great comments and I learn so much from all the small details that are shared here.
I feel like I have lived in an off white apartment all my life and have on just discovered that pictures on the walls and ornaments can give a richer feel to my living in Yeshua.

I love you all and am so glad that Yeshua led me here.
:groupray:
Shalom,
Mikhail
PS The emotive Italian side coming out :-)

[Velcro]

Mikhail, I am sorry I did not answer you! I have not written in the last few days, as I have been going through one of my "highly-exhausted times." I agree with much of what has already been writte, so if I wrote what I believe, it would be redundant. :-)

May HaShem bless you in your search for understanding! What a treasure you are!