Torah in the Millenium

[Mikhail]

Hi All,
What are your thoughts, from my undestanding of the scriptures based on Zechariah, it seems that Torah obsservance will be mandatory during the Mellenium, which I recently used as and argumenent to show that Torah observance is valid for today.
Why would God, command Torah observance from Moses to Yeshua, then allow a period where Torah did not have to be observed only to re-enforce Torah under his Millenial reign again. God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
Omein,
Mikhail

[visionary]

Yeshua said not one dot or tittle will be removed from the law til heaven and earth shall pass away.

[MyLittleWonders]

I agree with you Mikhail and don't understand why people would think He would omit the Torah for the period between Yeshua and His second coming.

[Tishri1]

I think the problem has always lied in trying to make Torah Observance and Walking in the Spirit apples and oranges. They are not apples and oranges, they are both apples!:wave:

[MyLittleWonders]

I think the problem has always lied in trying to make Torah Observance and Walking in the Spirit apples and oranges. They are not apples and oranges, they are both apples!:wave::amen: :thumbsup:

[debi b]

Proverbs 7:2
Guard my commandments and live, and my Torah as the apple of your eye ;)

vs 3
Bind them on your fingers; inscribe them on the tablet of your heart.....

[Shimshon]

I think the problem has always lied in trying to make Torah Observance and Walking in the Spirit apples and oranges. They are not apples and oranges, they are both apples!:wave:Well, I sure see Shaul stating it's differences.

Galatians 3:2 I want to know from you just this one thing: did you receive the Spirit by legalistic observance of Torah commands or by trusting in what you heard and being faithful to it? 3 Are you that stupid? Having begun with the Spirit's power, do you think you can reach the goal under your own power? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing? If that's the way you think, your suffering certainly will have been for nothing! 5 What about God, who supplies you with the Spirit and works miracles among you - does he do it because of your legalistic observance of Torah commands or because you trust in what you heard and are faithful to it?

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are in union with the Messiah Yeshua. 2 Why? Because the Torah of the Spirit, which produces this life in union with Messiah Yeshua, has set me free from the "Torah" of sin and death. 3 For what the Torah could not do by itself, because it lacked the power to make the old nature cooperate, God did by sending his own Son as a human being with a nature like our own sinful one . God did this in order to deal with sin, and in so doing he executed the punishment against sin in human nature, 4 so that the just requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us who do not run our lives according to what our old nature wants but according to what the Spirit wants. 5 For those who identify with their old nature set their minds on the things of the old nature, but those who identify with the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 Having one's mind controlled by the old nature is death, but having one's mind controlled by the Spirit is life and shalom. 7 For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God's Torah - indeed, it cannot. 8 Thus, those who identify with their old nature cannot please God. 9 But you, you do not identify with your old nature but with the Spirit - provided the Spirit of God is living inside you, for anyone who doesn't have the Spirit of the Messiah doesn't belong to him.

I never thought I would identify the Torah with the 'old nature', but it IS the OLD way of doing things. We have a NEW Cohen HaGadol, a TRANSFORMED Torah, who lives in the NEWNESS of the Ruakh. Which is not a new thing but the very thing YHVH set out to do in the begining.

Hebrews 7:11 Therefore, if it had been possible to reach the goal through the system of cohanim derived from Levi (since in connection with it, the people were given the Torah), what need would there have been for another, different kind of cohen, the one spoken of as to be compared with Malki-Tzedek and not to be compared with Aharon? 12 For if the system of cohanim is transformed, [b]there must of necessity occur a transformation of Torah. Zekharyah 11: 10 I took my staff No'am and snapped it in two, "in order to break my covenant, which I made with all the peoples." 14 Then I snapped in two my other staff Hovalim [bound together], in order to break up the brotherhood between Y'hudah and Isra'el.

13 The one about whom these things are said belongs to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar; 14 for everyone knows that our Lord arose out of Y'hudah, and that Moshe said nothing about this tribe when he spoke about cohanim. 15 It becomes even clearer if a "different kind of cohen," one like Malki-Tzedek, arises, 16 one who became a cohen not by virtue of a rule in the Torah concerning physical descent, but by virtue of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is stated, "You are a cohen FOREVER, to be compared with Malki-Tzedek." 18 Thus, on the one hand, the earlier rule is set aside because of its weakness and inefficacy 19 (for the Torah did not bring anything to the goal); and, on the other hand, a hope of something better is introduced, through which we are drawing near to God.

[Tishri1]

Shimshon,

Guess what? I have been waiting for 2 hours and 24 minutes for you to respond, and that now that you finally have I must admit to you and be completely exposed to you that I am shaking and nervous.

Not because of any other reason than that I could almost see what was coming at 9:39 when I pressed the Submit Reply button .

I have gone down this road so many times it's almost scary how I could anticipate your response...I could have written it with my own hand...

please forgive my though as I have a DR. Appointment...Bummer!!! cus I really wanted to say something very heart felt to you..."Father I pray that my heart felt reply will still be full of love and meaning and not lose its flavor in the next few hours..."

(to be continued...)

Tishri 1

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Torah is to be observed in the Spirit not the letter of the law. Didn't Jesus say something to that effect?

What does it matter if I go through 10,000 ritual observances if in my heart I am ruled by self-righteousness?
That was Paul who said that last part.
1Co 14:19 HNV However in the assembly I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I might instruct others also, than ten thousand words in another language.


Observing the Spirit of the Law is what Yeshua taught. What is the Spirit of the Mitzvot you may ask. Let's look at an example:

Mat 5:27-28 HNV "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery;' (28) but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Physical observance is easy to see and many of the Pharisees and Scribes(Like MAN and Lawyers in general) looked for Loop-holes in HaShem's Mitzvot and were only living by the Letter of the Mitzvot. Now if we learn what the Spirit of the Mitzvot that Yeshua was teaching then we see not just the Letter, but the Spirit of the Mitzvot as well and know the Truth, the Whole Truth and Nothing but the TRUTH. There is going over board as well in seeking out the Spirit of the Mitzvot. We can have all the Faith in the World that Yeshua is Our King, yet if we are without Love then we are living according to the Letter of the Mitzvot if we say we Faith(Trust) in Yeshua or HaShem and those who don't have faith are already lost until they see the Light(Those who walk in the LIGHT as an example) and hear the Message HaMashiach taught.

Shalom,

Tag

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Well, I sure see Shaul stating it's differences.

Galatians 3:2 I want to know from you just this one thing: did you receive the Spirit by legalistic observance of Torah commands or by trusting in what you heard and being faithful to it? 3 Are you that stupid? Having begun with the Spirit's power, do you think you can reach the goal under your own power? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing? If that's the way you think, your suffering certainly will have been for nothing! 5 What about God, who supplies you with the Spirit and works miracles among you - does he do it because of your legalistic observance of Torah commands or because you trust in what you heard and are faithful to it?
Gal 3:21-26 HNV Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could make alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. (22) But the Scriptures(NOTE: Scriptures = Tanakh which is mainly The Torah and Prophets for those that don't know already) imprisoned all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Yeshua the Messiah might be given to those who believe. (23) But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, confined for the faith which should afterwards be revealed. (24) So that the law has become our tutor to bring us to Messiah, that we might be justified by faith. (25) But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. (26) For you are all children of God, through faith in Messiah Yeshua.

So, if we didn't have Tutor then we wouldn't know about HaMashiach now would we. And when we were a Child(one with NO understanding) we spoke like a child. Since we have a Tutor we must still be children that don't Know much of the Mitzvot of HaShem. Verse 25 says to me that we are no longer under the Tutor because we must have Matured and have understanding of Torah and therefore now HAVE FAITH(TRUST) in Yeshua and we aren't seeking Self-righteous justification because we THINK we are Holier then others because we now understand The Spirit of the Torah which Yeshua taught.


Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are in union with the Messiah Yeshua. 2 Why? Because the Torah of the Spirit, which produces this life in union with Messiah Yeshua, has set me free from the "Torah" of sin and death. 3 For what the Torah could not do by itself, because it lacked the power to make the old nature cooperate, God did by sending his own Son as a human being with a nature like our own sinful one . God did this in order to deal with sin, and in so doing he executed the punishment against sin in human nature, 4 so that the just requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us who do not run our lives according to what our old nature wants but according to what the Spirit wants. 5 For those who identify with their old nature set their minds on the things of the old nature, but those who identify with the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. [b]6 Having one's mind controlled by the old nature is death, but having one's mind controlled by the Spirit is life and shalom. 7 For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God's Torah - indeed, it cannot. 8 Thus, those who identify with their old nature cannot please God. 9 But you, you do not identify with your old nature but with the Spirit - provided the Spirit of God is living inside you, for anyone who doesn't have the Spirit of the Messiah doesn't belong to him.



Hebrews 7:11 Therefore, if it had been possible to reach the goal through the system of cohanim derived from Levi (since in connection with it, the people were given the Torah), what need would there have been for another, different kind of cohen, the one spoken of as to be compared with Malki-Tzedek and not to be compared with Aharon? 12 For if the system of cohanim is transformed, there must of necessity occur a transformation of Torah.

13 The one about whom these things are said belongs to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar; 14 for everyone knows that our Lord arose out of Y'hudah, and that Moshe said nothing about this tribe when he spoke about cohanim. 15 It becomes even clearer if a "different kind of cohen," one like Malki-Tzedek, arises, 16 one who became a cohen not by virtue of a rule in the Torah concerning physical descent, but by virtue of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is stated, "You are a cohen FOREVER, to be compared with Malki-Tzedek." 18 Thus, on the one hand, the earlier rule is set aside because of its weakness and inefficacy 19 (for the Torah did not bring anything to the goal); and, on the other hand, a hope of something better is introduced, through which we are drawing near to God.

Transformation of Torah. Change made. Doesn't mean the WHOLE Torah is null and void and I'm not saying your saying that, yet others might think that.

Shalom,
Tag

[Shimshon]

Transformation of Torah. Change made. Doesn't mean the WHOLE Torah is null and void and I'm not saying your saying that, yet others might think that.

Shalom,
Tag


The WHOLE Torah lead, pointed to, has it's fulfillment in Yeshua. It was not made null and void, it was not abolished, it was completed.

Others think 'that' quite often yes. And that is why we must have patience, kindness, and mercy, being long-suffering and bearing up under those who can not fully carry or grasp the Truth as it was given. That is why we must 'love' our neighbors and our enemies. Because THIS is the Torah lived out in Truth and Spirit. Just like Yeshua did with us.

[Tishri1]

I can only pray that this post is as edifying as my heart want's it to be, honestly I am baring my soul to you guys when I say this....I come in as humble a state as I can...

I have been down this road and in this debate (Torah Observance VS Walking in the Spirit)for years and do you know what I discovered? The road (and the debate) never ends. I bet just the time I personally spent discussing this, if I were to print out the posts and lined them up; they would travel a mile.(I'm sure there are some who could attest to that too.)The scriptures quoted from both sides of this issue I have read,and read again and again, still no one has settled it...it just keeps recharging and going and going. The only thing that changes are the groups of people who discuss it... I have yet to see it settled...I bet it never will be settled..why? BECAUSE ...IMHO.... and I so sincerely mean it:blush: ; I believe that it is a tool of the enemy... period. I think we have all been a pawn (my self sooo included) in a game of his to destroy our faith and our unity.

The reason I say this is because I never got anything out of the years of debating this issue...not one thing, and I caused so much division and hurt in MY quest to succeed in proving my POV that now I am left only discusted in myself and empty because of it.

Now on to my NEW POV...

without jumping back into a debate like that , which I wont; let me say this:

Shimshon has revealed his heart to anyone who read his post earlier today (in one of the other threads going around...sorry I can't remember it off hand) and I was so blessed by his honesty and openness. I can see he is so close to the Father and Yeshua right now by his own Walk in the Spirit...
(The Bible says that if we walk in the Spirit we won't obey the lusts of the flesh.)
I would like to thank and praise YHVH for giving us His Ruach to help us draw near to Him.

I myself and others here also have a Walk of the Spirit. :clap: Praise YHVH!

I also in addition to Walking in the Spirit, am happy to be Torah Observant.

"Both of these tools (not a perfect word but ok for now) help me draw near to You Father, and I thank you and Praise you for both of them.:prayer: "

To me these are both Apples, Tools, Gifts, Lifesyles, what have you, that help us draw near and stay near to the Father and Yeshua... and bless Him for the provision.

I personally need and enjoy BOTH of these (My Walk in the Spirit and My Torah Observance), and they both draw me near to my Savior and my God.
(Psalm 37:31 31 The law of his God is in his heart; His steps do not slip. and

Galatians 5:16 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.)

I don't need either one to be saved, only to walk out the remainder of this life, and keep me close to YHVH.

Like I said before I rejoice with Shimshon for his Walk in the Spirit and wont think of suggesting that he needs something more to help him draw near....when your near...your near right!

I confess I need and enjoy Torah Observance to help me draw near in addition to my Walk in the Spirit. That's how I draw near...as long as I'm near that's what is important, and I am thankful to the Father for Providing Both for me.

There are some out there who only need and have Torah Observance to help them draw near...if your near, your near...that's what is important .Thank you Father for you Torah!

Hasatan is one who hates that we can draw near would love to do a work in each of us to keep us from drawing near and staying near...So I would suggest that debating about Torah Observance VS Walking in the Spirit and making them separate and making one or the other insufficiant for the believer; is just a scheme of his to decieve and destroy our fellowship and faith...

thats all:wave:

[visionary]

So I would suggest that debating about Torah Observance VS Walking in the Spirit and making them separate and making one or the other insufficiant for the believer; is just a scheme of his to decieve and destroy our fellowship and faith... I most hearily agree.....Torah Observance and walking in the spirit are a beauty to behold, when one can torah observe while in the spirit just as Yeshua was able. I agree that this is a scheme of HaSatan to try and get people to say that they are opposite.... it will deceive and destroy the fellowship in the spirit and truth of where God is leading His people and I would hate to see anyone's faith take a tumble because they lost sight of this one fact. Torah observance and walking in the spirit can be done. I know that Shimshon is absolutely right that if we are not walking in the spirit, anything else is for nothing. Once the Holy Spirit has moved us into walking to the rhythm of the Lord's beat, we are not to lose the new song of Moses given us. We are to singing it joyfully.

Ps 33:3 Sing to him a new song, make music at your best among shouts of joy.

Ps 40:3 He put a new song in my mouth, a song of praise to our God. Many will look on in awe and put their trust in ADONAI.

Ps 96:1 Sing to ADONAI a new song! Sing to ADONAI, all the earth!

Ps 98:1 A psalm: Sing a new song to ADONAI, because he has done wonders. His right hand, his holy arm have won him victory.

Ps 144:9 God, I will sing a new song to you; sing praises to you with a ten-stringed harp.

Ps 149:1 Halleluyah! Sing to ADONAI a new song, his praise in the assembly of the faithful.

Isa 42:10 Sing to ADONAI a new song! Let his praise be sung from the ends of the earth by those sailing the sea and by everything in it, by the coastlands and those living there.

Re 5:9 and they sang a new song, "You are worthy to take the scroll and break its seals; because you were slaughtered; at the cost of blood you ransomed for God persons from every tribe, language, people and nation.

Re 14:3 They were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living beings and the elders, and no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who have been ransomed from the world.

[MyZz]

The more I study Torah not as in legalistic obligations and rules but the meaning behind the mitzvot the more I love it and the more I see how HaShem has so lovingly provided for all our needs in his Laws.It is only when man seeks to add to these laws and add so many fence laws that it becomes a burden for me and indeed all of us.I love to browse orthodox sites too even though I know that discernment is required and I love delving deep into the meaning behind the commandments all 613 of them..and they reveal so much love..

as I cannot fulfill all of them ,I just remember that Yeshua died so that I wouldnt have to fulfill all of them...shalom :)

[visionary]

Ever wondered why only the 144,000 can see the new song? The reason that they are the only ones who can see the new song is because they were the only ones to have perfect harmony between the Torah and the Spirit.

[yod]

2 pages of this thread and no one has mentioned that it's not the same Torah in the millennium?

There has already been a change and there will be more changes when the author of the torah comes again. The principles will remain the same...but the administration and
observances change with time and culture because the goal is to bring in the Kingdom and righteousness of G-d to an entire universe.

Love accomplishes true observance.

[Shimshon]

Many are mentioning it Yod, just not calling it by name. In fact there is only ONE Torah that has been given throughout time. This Torah has four sides, faces. All proclaim the glory of YHVH, Yeshua. But they do it according to the ability they were given. What we have here, is a failure to communicate!. O.k. I just wanted to say that. But really, what we have is the Adversary has confused many who hear the words coming from the faces or sides of this unique Torah. Avraham was given a promise according to this Torah. Some believe this promise means though they live in sin they will not be judged, some believe this promise needs to be added to the other promises as if they were functioning as one promise. But every promise functioned by itself as it worked to bring Yeshua to it's goal. Adama and Chavah were given a promise according to this Torah. Noach, given a promise. And Yisrael too was given a promise. All these promises lead to Yeshua. They all had Torah associated with them. Adama/Chavah were told (Torah) not to eat of certain things and to be fruitful and multiply and were promised a "seed". Noach and family were told (Torah) to build an ark and just what was to go in it and promised that YHVH would never destroy mankind of the face of the earth. Avraham was told (Torah) to leave his fathers land and ways, circumcise his children, and go to a land YHVH would give and promised a 'seed', a land, and to be the father of many 'goyim'. Moshe was told (Torah) to be the savior of his people out of Egypt and instructions on how to live in the land that is promised to them. Yeshua came and wrote the conclusion to this Torah. He is in the process now of writting it on our hearts. This Torah of the Spirit is the Torah given throughout time. Every side has it's time and purpose and makes up the whole. Notice Yeshua is the 'fifth' (Grace) face of this Torah. Or the inner meaning, the fulfillment, that which the faces spoke of, the Torah made flesh for the sanctification of his people. The Word made flesh. YHVH withus. YHVH our savior.

[Tishri1]

:wave: That was very inspirational Shimshon, I could actually visualize it myself.

[Tishri1]

I most hearily agree.....Torah Observance and walking in the spirit are a beauty to behold, when one can torah observe while in the spirit just as Yeshua was able. I agree that this is a scheme of HaSatan to try and get people to say that they are opposite.... it will deceive and destroy the fellowship in the spirit and truth of where God is leading His people and I would hate to see anyone's faith take a tumble because they lost sight of this one fact. Torah observance and walking in the spirit can be done. I know that Shimshon is absolutely right that if we are not walking in the spirit, anything else is for nothing. Once the Holy Spirit has moved us into walking to the rhythm of the Lord's beat, we are not to lose the new song of Moses given us. We are to singing it joyfully.

You know Vis, I really love the way you say everything I'm feeling:pray:

[Tishri1]

The more I study Torah not as in legalistic obligations and rules but the meaning behind the mitzvot the more I love it and the more I see how HaShem has so lovingly provided for all our needs in his Laws.It is only when man seeks to add to these laws and add so many fence laws that it becomes a burden for me and indeed all of us.I love to browse orthodox sites too even though I know that discernment is required and I love delving deep into the meaning behind the commandments all 613 of them..and they reveal so much love..

as I cannot fulfill all of them ,I just remember that Yeshua died so that I wouldnt have to fulfill all of them...shalom :)

:clap: :clap: :clap: love it! yes I am doing exactly the same thing MyZz, and It just gets more and more exciting this walk doesn't it?

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Well, I sure see Shaul stating it's differences.

Galatians 3:2 I want to know from you just this one thing: did you receive the Spirit by legalistic observance of Torah commands or by trusting in what you heard and being faithful to it? 3 Are you that stupid? Having begun with the Spirit's power, do you think you can reach the goal under your own power? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing? If that's the way you think, your suffering certainly will have been for nothing! 5 What about God, who supplies you with the Spirit and works miracles among you - does he do it because of your legalistic observance of Torah commands or because you trust in what you heard and are faithful to it?

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are in union with the Messiah Yeshua. 2 Why? Because the Torah of the Spirit, which produces this life in union with Messiah Yeshua, has set me free from the "Torah" of sin and death. 3 For what the Torah could not do by itself, because it lacked the power to make the old nature cooperate, God did by sending his own Son as a human being with a nature like our own sinful one [but without sin]. God did this in order to deal with sin, and in so doing he executed the punishment against sin in human nature, 4 so that the just requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us who do not run our lives according to what our old nature wants but according to what the Spirit wants. 5 For those who identify with their old nature set their minds on the things of the old nature, but those who identify with the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 Having one's mind controlled by the old nature is death, but having one's mind controlled by the Spirit is life and shalom. 7 For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God's Torah - indeed, it cannot. 8 Thus, those who identify with their old nature cannot please God. 9 But you, you do not identify with your old nature but with the Spirit - provided the Spirit of God is living inside you, for anyone who doesn't have the Spirit of the Messiah doesn't belong to him.


What is this? "reach the goal" what is this goal we must reach?

"For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God's Torah - indeed, it cannot. "

Baruch HaShem,

Tag

[visionary]

What is this? "reach the goal" what is this goal we must reach?

"For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God's Torah - indeed, it cannot. "

Baruch HaShem,

Tag
De 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

Think about it for a moment... if we were 100% moved by the Holy Spirit living in us... then everything we do would be the perfect gift from God.
James 1:17 Every good act of giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father who made the heavenly lights; with him there is neither variation nor darkness caused by turning.

James 1:25 But if a person looks closely into the perfect Torah, which gives freedom, and continues, becoming not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work it requires, then he will be blessed in what he does.

By the Spirit of God we can do all things perfectly, our complete surrender is what is required. We are reheasing now, but the time will come when the Lord will come to His Temple to dwell within forever, then what we have been rehearsing will come alive within us.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

[Bon]

Yeshua said not one dot or tittle will be removed from the law til heaven and earth shall pass away.

Can you please explain how this applies to the change in the priesthood from Levitical to Malchizedek?

If not one dot or tittle is passed, then what of:-
..."there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well." (Hebrews 7:12)

Is it so, that there can be "CHANGES" to certain Laws, but they are actually not done away with?

I know the answer's in here :scratch: somewhere, I just cant seem to wade through the quagmire of information to find it. :help:

Shalom from Bon

[Shimshon]

What is this? "reach the goal" what is this goal we must reach?

Eternal life, righteousness to everyone who trusts, has faith in the Good News 'Promised' (covenant) throughout Torah, resurrection from the dead. This is the goal the talmidim spoke of attaining. Not legalistic Torah observances. Those were plainly and constantly identified as 'shadows', 'patterns' and symbols of the Heavenly things.

Let's refresh;
Matthew 19:16-22
16 A man approached Yeshua and said, "Rabbi, what good thing should I do in order to have eternal life?" 21 Yeshua said to him, "If you are serious about reaching the goal, go and sell your possessions, give to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven. Then come, follow me!" Was the answer 'go and rededicate your life and walk out the mitzvot given to Moshe 'for real' now. No it mentions NOTHING about legalistic ritual observances. Just "follow me!" Was he heading to the Temple to observe the rituals? No he wasn't even a "levi". But he was telling people to follow him INSTEAD of the cohanim to attain the goal, eternal life.
Luke 13:32 He said to them, "Go, tell that fox, `Pay attention: today and tomorrow I am driving out demons and healing people, and on the third day I reach my goal.' Luke 9:21"The Son of Man has to endure much suffering and be rejected by the elders, the head cohanim and the Torah-teachers; and he has to be put to death; but on the third day, he has to be raised to life." The goal is the resurrection of the dead, Yeshua showed us in person how it will happen, that it will happen.

Romans 10:4 For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts.

The goal is righteousness to everyone who TRUSTS, has FAITH. Not walk out ritualistic physical shadows and patters of observance that were said to disappear at the coming of the Good News, the New Covenant, Yeshua HaMoshiach.

Romans11:7 What follows is that Isra'el has not attained the goal for which she is striving. The ones chosen have obtained it, but the rest have been made stonelike, As hard as the physical tablets of which they cling.


Gal 3:2 I want to know from you just this one thing: did you receive the Spirit by legalistic observance of Torah commands or by trusting in what you heard and being faithful to it? 5 What about God, who supplies you with the Spirit and works miracles among you - does he do it because of your legalistic observance of Torah commands or because you trust in what you heard and are faithful to it? Why is Shaul 'contrasting' Observances vs Faith? If in the Torah Observant theology Obervance = Faith, or proof there of?


Now here is a good one;

Philippians 3:3 For it is we who are the Circumcised, we who worship by the Spirit of God and make our boast in the Messiah Yeshua! We do not put confidence in human qualifications, 4 even though I certainly have grounds for putting confidence in such things. If anyone else thinks he has grounds for putting confidence in human qualifications, I have better grounds:



Shaul has just 'boasted' about his "Jewish" lineage and stature. He declares that if there was ever a "Jew" HE was one. Then remarks this;


7 But the things that used to be advantages for me, I have, because of the Messiah, come to consider a disadvantage. 8 Not only that, but I consider everything a disadvantage in comparison with the supreme value of knowing the Messiah Yeshua as my Lord. It was because of him that I gave up everything and regard it all as garbage, in order to gain the Messiah Why is he not "embracing" his 'old nature' of doing things?

10 Yes, I gave it all up in order to know him, that is, to know the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings as I am being conformed to his death, 11 so that somehow I might arrive at being resurrected from the dead. 12 It is not that I have already obtained it or already reached the goal - no, I keep pursuing it in the hope of taking hold of that for which the Messiah Yeshua took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I, for my part, do not think of myself as having yet gotten hold of it; but one thing I do: forgetting what is behind me and straining forward toward what lies ahead, 14 I keep pursuing the goal in order to win the prize offered by God's upward calling in the Messiah Yeshua. The prize is eternal life in Truth and Spirit with YHVH. Not in shadow and pattern.

Ya'akov2:8 If you truly attain the goal of Kingdom Torah, in conformity with the passage that says, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.

The goal of Torah is not it's physical observances but it's inward meanings, Yeshua, Love.

And I could go on with this....But I think the point is made.

"For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God's Torah - indeed, it cannot. "


Focus here on "the old nature" and lets see what Shaul says about it;

Romans 7:4 Thus, my brothers, you have been made dead with regard to the Torah through the Messiah's body, so that you may belong to someone else, namely, the one who has been raised from the dead, in order for us to bear fruit for God.

5 For when we were living according to our old nature, the passions connected with sins worked through the Torah in our various parts, with the result that we bore fruit for death.

6 But now we have been released from this aspect of the Torah, because we have died to that which had us in its clutches, so that we are serving in the new way provided by the Spirit and not in the old way of outwardly following the letter of the law.

Sir, in all due humbleness, I submit that it is those who seek to walk out a covenant, that even states within itself it will be transformed into a new Torah, are the ones being 'hostile' toward YHVH by rejecting the Good News promised throughout Torah, throughout time.

Seeking to draw the old into the new, or mix the new with the old is NOT the Good News. And IS hostile to YHVH, and goes against what he spoke in Torah itelf. And THIS is the point Shaul is making in your quote.

To be submited to Torah is to let it speak for HIMself, and He said THROUGHOUT his Torah that the righteous will attain life by FAITH, not by legalistic observances. If you focus on the physical you will lose sight of the Spiritutal, and be made as hard as stone. He will attempt to carve his mitzvot into your heart and you will crack. But those who have been made Messiah-like, in union with Yeshua will be soft and malable through faith, so as to be shaped in the very image of Yeshua.

[Tishri1]

Can you please explain how this applies to the change in the priesthood from Levitical to Malchizedek?

If not one dot or tittle is passed, then what of:-
..."there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well." (Hebrews 7:12)

Is it so, that there can be "CHANGES" to certain Laws, but they are actually not done away with?

I know the answer's in here :scratch: somewhere, I just cant seem to wade through the quagmire of information to find it. :help:

Shalom from BonIMO no laws were changed technically, no temple means no priests, and no laws changed.

BUT what is happening outside this Heaven(Sky) and this Earth(World) is waiting for the ages(Time as we know it) to catch-up I guess you could say.

Eternity is still going on, we are the ones who are waiting in the shadows for this stuff to pass away so we can finally see what is yet to come.

The Father is not in the shadows, we are...but we are told what to do while we are waiting (to catch-up)... walk in His ways

[yod]

Can you please explain how this applies to the change in the priesthood from Levitical to Malchizedek?

If not one dot or tittle is passed, then what of:-
..."there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well." (Hebrews 7:12)

Is it so, that there can be "CHANGES" to certain Laws, but they are actually not done away with?

I know the answer's in here :scratch: somewhere, I just cant seem to wade through the quagmire of information to find it. :help:

Shalom from Bon








I think it is only a difference of looking at the big picture instead of the details.

When a person is born again, the Holy Spirit begins right where they are. They now intuitively (supernaturally) know the difference between right and wrong...even if they don't obey.

the jots and tittles are the basic details of the overall purpose of the Law. They are still valid but not nearly as important as the overall purpose.

For instance....which will be greater in the Kingdom;

1. a ham eating sunday church going easter celebrating christian that spends his off days feeding the homeless.

2. A Kosher sabbath observing feast day teaching messianic jew who separates himself in order to not be defiled




One of them sees the big picture and the other pays too close attention to the details to see it.



I am not saying that all messianics do this or that all Sunday christians do that. The purpose of this story is to help with deciding what is "right judgement"




Matthew 23:23 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&verse=23&version=49&context=verse)
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

[yod]

IMO no laws were changed technically, no temple means no priests, and no laws changed.




so do you sacrifice a Lamb for Passover?


That command was given (to Israel) in the Torah as perpetual BEFORE the Levitical law.

[AlikhnKwizad]

OK- this is getting confusing...

Wouldn't the more 'perfect' way be the sabbath observant person who feeds the homeless??? Yeshua wasn't saying either one way or the other- He was saying BOTH!

Not ONLY do you avoid adultery, you must ALSO avoid lust in your heart.

Keep the commandments- both EXTERNALLY (if nothing else but to help you remember them & be acountable to them) but also keep them INTERNALLY- in your heart.

I do not see any disagreement here. It's just common sense.

No, we don't kill a lamb on passover- because Yeshua stands in eternity (ultimate reality) as the Sacrificial Lamb. His work is being acomplished continously every time a human comes to Him for atonement... that would be from a linear time perspective. Of course eternity is like on a totally different plane, so I'm not saying every so many minutes Yeshua is sacrificed again- it happened once- and covers all time... but we are finite creatures- anyway, that's getting a bit scientific for me... back to the point...

But, yes, I'll observe sabath, and keep kosher, and the whole bit. And at no time do I feel the weight of the "Law"... I feel delight in HaShem's instruction... because each mitzvot speaks of an ultimate truth- that which we will all live out in the ultimate reality of resurected existance.
~Nilahk

[AlikhnKwizad]

"Matthew 23:23 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&verse=23&version=49&context=verse)
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others."

"........WITHOUT NEGLECTING THE OTHERS......."

My thoughts exactly.

[Tishri1]

so do you sacrifice a Lamb for Passover?


That command was given (to Israel) in the Torah as perpetual BEFORE the Levitical law. Heh:bow: I'm not baiting any one, I just realised that everyone who looks at the Laws on the books will see that they haven't changed, and hopefully answering or at least giving some food for thought to Bon, who had the question about that.

I'm with you and everyone else here looking forward :clap:to the time when we will see everything, and Him, face to face. It was not ment as challenge, please don't take it that way:hug:

[AlikhnKwizad]

Wait a sec...I wasn't reading closely...

What about eating Lamb on passover...? If it was before the levitical law...and it is to be a perpetual sign... hummm.... So would there be a difference in say, sacrificing a lamb now (since we have atonement in Yeshua) and eating a lamb because it is part of passover rememberance??? hmmmm.....

[Shimshon]

Woe to you! You build tombs in memory of the prophets, but your fathers murdered them! Thus you testify that you completely approve of what your fathers did -- they did the killing, you do the building! Therefore the Wisdom of God said, `I will send them prophets and emissaries; they will kill some and persecute others'; so that on this generation will fall the responsibility for all the prophets' blood that has been shed since the world was established, from the blood of Hevel to the blood of Z'kharyah, who was killed between the altar and the Holy Place. Yes, I tell you, the responsibility for it will fall on this generation! "Woe to you Torah experts! For you have taken away the key of knowledge! Not only did you yourselves not go in, you also have stopped those who were trying to enter!"

Woe to you!

---my thoughs exactly---

I'm telling you! -- many will be demanding to get in and won't be able to, once the owner of the house has gotten up and shut the door. You will stand outside, knocking at the door and saying, `Lord! Open up for us!' But he will answer, `I don't know you or where you come from!' Then you will say, `We ate and drank with you! you taught in our streets!' and he will tell you, `I don't know where you're from. Get away from me, all you workers of wickedness!' You will cry and grind your teeth when you see Avraham, Yitz'chak, Ya`akov and all the prophets inside the Kingdom of God, but yourselves thrown outside. Moreover, people will come from the east, the west, the north and the south to sit at table in the Kingdom of God. And notice that some who are last will be first, and some who are first will be last."

This is not about the goyim, it is about his own people, the Jew.
"Yerushalayim! Yerushalayim! You kill the prophets! You stone those who are sent to you! How often I wanted to gather your children, just as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, but you refused! Look! God is abandoning your house to you! I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of ADONAI!'

He will come and put an end to those tenants and give the vineyard to others!" When the people heard this, they said, "Heaven forbid!" But Yeshua looked searchingly at them and said, "Then what is this which is written in the Tanakh, `The very rock which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone'? Whoever falls on that stone will be broken in pieces; but if it falls on him, he will be crushed to powder!" The Torah-teachers and the head cohanim would have seized him at that very moment, because they knew that he had aimed this parable at them, but they were afraid of the people.

"The time is coming when what you see here will be totally destroyed -- not a single stone will be left standing!

For if you really believed Moshe, you would believe me; because it was about me that he wrote. But if you don't believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"



The fig tree represents 'physical' Yisrael, old covenant Yisrael.

18 The next morning, on his way back to the city, he felt hungry. 19 Spotting a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. So he said to it, "May you never again bear fruit!" and immediately the fig tree dried up.

Yes, WOE TO YOU who strike the rock twice instead of 'listening' to YHVH and doing what he says. He said all this above, that he will strike 'home' first. (Judgement starts in the house of YHVH). And after the STRIKING in faith we are to ASK in faith for the water. But many just strike it again in the vain of "Torah Obediance" instead of doing what he said (TORAH) and SPEAKING to the Rock, in faith, for our pure water from heaven.

[Shimshon]

everyone who looks at the Laws on the books will see that they haven't changedThe only way this statement is correct is if you understand that FAITH is the goal of Torah. In this not one Yud will disappear before righteousness is found filling the earth. The righteous will live their lives by Faith. This NEVER changes. But the purpose for the Torah given Moshe is fulfilled 'the laws on the books' of the old covenant have seen their True meaning in the life of Yeshua. THAT GENERATION is past. THIS is the acharit hayamim, the end of days. Where Yeshua comes down from heaven TWICE to radify then commence the NEW covenant spoken to come about from the begining.

On a more material note, if the laws on the books havn't changed, shaul would have been preaching circumcision of the flesh, and the necessity of the 3 pilgram festivals. But He infact spoke the very opposite. He said it was of NO USE to OBSERVE circumcision. Which by the way was in the covenant given Avraham. So now we have him preaching against not only Torah (a misunderstanding), but now also the covenant given Avraham before it (another misunderstanding). He also states himself that he did NOT observe the feasts as ordained by Torah. (you shall come 3 times a year to where Adonai says to offer your sacrifices during these feast). Yet, Shaul states he was on the road for over 14 yrs, all but once returning to Yisrael, and that not even for the feasts but of a private revealation.

So how are you claiming what Shaul obviously showed different?

How do you ignore verses like;Hebrews 7:12 For if the system of cohanim is transformed, there must of necessity occur a transformation of Torah. ?

[Tishri1]

maybe I misrepresented myself...:scratch:but I think I already explained my statement so maybe I should just quit, but I will try once again....

Remember the question I addressed was strickly on the priesthood...

The temple is no longer here so any laws refering to the priests in the temple (be it that they are still on the books and haven't literally changed) just can't be practised ...they just don't do them. No temple, no priests, no laws to practise concerning priests.

So even though WE have a priest hood that is changed (Yeshua being our High Priest) they don't know that and are not going to change literally a jot or tittle about the Priesthood Laws untill Messiah (Yeshua) comes. He said he didn't come to change/abolish Isreal's laws. Those Priesthood laws are still there...

If that doesn't help explain things then I give up graciously as the last thing I am about is debating the Law(got that Tshirt in lots of sizes:D)

Love you guys shalom, Tishri:wave:

[Sephania]

It's all about being a servent. :)

[talmidim]

I was driving dow the freeway the other day. There was a sign that said, "Right lane must exit". There was the yellow paint down the lane divider and all that.

There is a law on the books concerning that sign. It is a valid law. The only thing was the exit ramp was closed. There was no street at the end of the exit anymore. New construction had changed all that. I was still illegal to ride in the right lane and not exit. I just couldn't see any good reason to change into that lane. It led nowhere. The law was valid. The sign was valid. The destination had changed. Paradise street had been moved. I had to go someplace else to start.

Great post Shimshon

[Shimshon]

As far as circumcision is concerned, did not YHVH require the Yisrael to circumcise their hearts? (Deut 10:16; 30:6; Jere. 4:4). Therefore essentially it has not changed.

THIS is my whole point. THIS was the message THROUGHOUT "Torah". This IS Torah! The goal, point, mission, purpose of all mitzvot, given throughout the covenants was a HEART that was HOLY to YHVH! The mitzvot has changed throughout time. Adama and Chava had theirs, Noach, Avraham, Moshe, and YESHUA!, have all had their own "mitzvot" (commands) related to the covenant made with those at the immediate time. Physically these mitzvot have been 'fulfilled', served there purpose. We don't have to 'build and ark' anymore. It's built in our "HEARTS". We don't have to make altars and circumcise our flesh anymore. Our HEARTS are circumcised altars to YHVH. We don't have to bring tithes to the temple within the levitical sacrifical system anymore. Our HEARTS are the temple of YHVH were we offer ALL our selves, praises, flesh and blood to him DAILY. Yeshua made the way into the heavenly temple for this to be possible.

All 'physical' mitzvot had it's purpose and showed the true 'spiritual' meaning behind it. If 'you have eyes to see'. In everything there is a time and a season. It's great to relive and rejoice in times past, for what they lead to. But it's foolish to actually believe your living in those times.

I know, I used to live like a hippy. My mother would always point her finger at me and say, 'that was MY generation' what are you doing living in it? I would retort, you raised me! :P She had the Jewish guilt thing down REAL well. Being raised within a Yiddish community can do that to you.

[Sephania]

He will come and put an end to those tenants and give the vineyard to others!"

That is very ominous considering what is going on in HaAretz.

[talmidim]

That is very ominous considering what is going on in HaAretz. Don't confuse their doing with His doing. They are giving away the vinyard (read farm) before He has arrived.

[Sephania]

Don't confuse their doing with His doing. They are giving away the vinyard (read farm) before He has arrived. That's what I meant. What did you think I meant Tal? :)

[talmidim]

Oh nothing, I just read that particular scripture as referring to what He will do upon His return. I was having a hard time putting the two together, that's all. I'd hug you (:hug: ) and tell you how much I respect your mind, but I wouldn't want anyone getting the wrong idea. :D

[Sephania]

:D we are mishpocha nu? :hug: away~! But Praise Adonai, for he gave it to me! ;)

[Mikhail]

"Matthew 23:23 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&verse=23&version=49&context=verse)
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others."

"........WITHOUT NEGLECTING THE OTHERS......."

My thoughts exactly.

:thumbsup: Beautiful comments :amen:
Shalom,
Mikhail

[jontinoregon]

A careful reading of the text concerning Paul and circumcision will show I think the issue is that one must be circumcised to be saved. No question that was incorrect. Salvation is a free gift through faith, but even after Abraham was saved by faith, he was circumcised.
The road analogy was interesting, but as I understand the argument, now that you have fulfilled the new signs that close the road, now someone else can take the exit without any negative consequences because you fulfilled the sign that says road closed??