Concepts of Original Sin

[Veritas_et_Puritas]

Brothers and sisters in Christ, peace be with you,

If there is one thing that I admire most about those of you whom I have observed posting here, it is the profound depth of your faith and your firm grasp on theology. Over the past few months, I have been researching Orthodox belief for an essay that I am writing for one of my classes, and my research has opened up an entirely new world for me. I've begun straying from my original topic just so that I can learn more! But I was wondering if you might be able to offer me any explanations regarding the Orthodox concept of "Original Sin" (or, Ancestral Sin, as I believe it may also be called). I am well-acquainted with the Catholic concept, of course, but I should like to gain a better understanding of the Orthodox concept as well.

If you have any books, any articles, or any explanations that you yourselves can offer, I would greatly appreciate it! :angel:

[Rilian]

veritas, take a look at this (http://www.geocities.com/jej89/orthodoxlinks.html) page of links. Scroll or search down for the section on original sin.

I'll post later when I have more time.

[Veritas_et_Puritas]

Thank you, Rilian! :wave:

[Rilian]

No problem. Here's another short one I didn't see on that page - The consequences of the Fall (http://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/original.htm) by Bishop Kallistos.

[Paisley]

I will be reading these links too, thanks Rilian! Also, I understand Orthodox do not hold to the "Total Depravity" doctrine the Lutherans have. If any links are available to explain the difference, that would be greatly appreciated on my part. :)

[Philip]

Isn't Total Depravity a Calvinist, not Lutheran, teaching?

[Paisley]

Isn't Total Depravity a Calvinist, not Lutheran, teaching?

I've heard Lutherans discussing it. I've been both, and never heard of it until becoming a Lutheran, for what's that worth. I wouldn't doubt the Calvinists have it too.

[Philip]

I have always heard it in the context of Calvinism, but I guess that's not really important.

As I understand it, Total Depravity is the belief that, as a result of the Fall, man is born dead and cannot do anything to come to God on his own. We believe that, , as a result of the Fall, man is born mortally wounded. He will die, but he can seek the Physician.

[Dust and Ashes]

IIRC, the T in TULIP stands for Total depravity so it is a Calvinist thing, though I have no idea if Lutherans also teach it or not.

[Paisley]

IIRC, the T in TULIP stands for Total depravity so it is a Calvinist thing, though I have no idea if Lutherans also teach it or not.

I believe Lutherans do, because they do say we cannot even think of coming to God without God putting into our hearts to do so.

[Rilian]

I will be reading these links too, thanks Rilian!

No problem, I hope you find them useful.

[ExOrienteLux]

I believe Lutherans do, because they do say we cannot even think of coming to God without God putting into our hearts to do so.

Yep. That's Total Depravity in all its fatalistic glory.

Philip summarized the differences well. I'd rep him, but the RepNazis don't like me today.

+IC XC NIKA+
Phillip (not the one above)

[Paisley]

Yep. That's Total Depravity in all its fatalistic glory.

Philip summarized the differences well. I'd rep him, but the RepNazis don't like me today.

+IC XC NIKA+
Phillip (not the one above)

I have to admit that Total Depravity idea never completely set well with me...for years. :o

[The Virginian]

The understanding I have of "original sin" is:
The Protestant teaching is htat man created in the image of God was without fault, up to, and until the moment of disobedience when they both partook of the forbidden fruit. At this time the image in man - marred by sin- was then passed down to his progeny, and so the sinful image of man was inherited and man born of woman was totally depraved.
The Orthodox understanding of the need in man for redemption is quite different, for the above dogma sees man as something unclean from creation. The Orthodox; however, believe that man as was all of creation has basic worth because of who the creator is. We believe that what the offspring of Adam inherited from our forefather was not guilt, but the unquestioned product of sin, "death". As the Scriptures teach , "...a son is not punished for the sins of his father..." Therefore not only did the "Passion of Christ" conquer the sinful nature of man, but also by "...trampling down death by death..." as the Scriptures teach the last enemy was conquered. Therefore redemption is complete, the middle wall of partition is torn down, and man can once again enjoy the communion our parents had with God before the Fall.

And so, here we are in Great Lent! The root of death is gone, nevertheless we deal with the tendrils of that under which we once suffered. We beat our bodies so that as we once partook of the penalty of sin; so too, we now may partake of the everlasting life.



"...for if we have been united with Him in the likeness
of His death, so shall we also be united with Him in
the likeness of His resurrection..." GO LIVE WELL!!

[vanshan]

I just saw an Orthodox article discussing the view of sin in the early church and original sin or ancestral sin.

Here's the link:

www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/164/SIN.htm

I haven't read it yet, but it seems to cover this topic well.

Basil

[Qoheleth]

I believe Lutherans do, because they do say we cannot even think of coming to God without God putting into our hearts to do so.



"Yep. That's Total Depravity in all its fatalistic glory."



Article XVIII: Of Free Will.

70] Nor, indeed, do we deny liberty to the human will. The human will has liberty in the choice of works and things which reason comprehends by itself. It can to a certain extent render civil righteousness or the righteousness of works; it can speak of God, offer to God a certain service by an outward work, obey magistrates, parents; in the choice of an outward work it can restrain the bands from murder, from adultery, from theft. Since there is left in human nature reason and judgment concerning objects subjected to the senses, choice between these things, the liberty and power to render civil righteousness, are also left. For Scripture calls this the righteousness of the flesh which the carnal nature, i.e., reason, renders by itself, (Defense of the Augsburg Confession)


Does this sound like Total Depravity?? Corrupted yes, TD, no.

No, Confessional Lutherans do not believe in Total Depravity.

As far as being able to heal ourselves, restore our union with God, well no, we are unable to do this or indeed depraved in this sense. How one defines the object is very important.




If I may, isnt it true that Orthodox believe that if it was not for God's mercy and God being the first cause in healing our communion with Him, we would be lost?

In essence, we can not restore ourselves--correct?

Or is it possible for any of us to restore, on our own, (or even begin restoration) this union with God, without God first setting the means to do so?


Q

[Rilian]

God's grace is uncreated, and therefore precedes all. God's grace or favor cannot be earned, and it is not selectively given to a few. Our salvation, meaning the return to the state before the fall, is dependent on how we respond to this gift. We cannot save ourselves, but we must act in our salvation.

St. John Cassian, though a Western Father, details the view of the East almost perfectly in his Conferences (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-11/Npnf2-11-63.htm#P5240_1885757).

[Rilian]

I think another worthwhile read is Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos' explanation of the two kinds of faith (http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b05.en.the_illness_and_cure_of_the_soul.01.htm#me4) from the book The Illness and Cure of the Soul in the Orthodox Tradition.