In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord

[Dust and Ashes]

Fr. Alexis (Trader)

Anyone read it? I'm reading it currently and am somewhat disturbed by some of the things I've learned about Pentecostalism. I knew a little but I didn't know much about the history of the movement. I'd pretty much heard about Parham at the turn of the century and the Azusa St. "revival" but otherwise had no clue. I just figured it was the 1st century Church rediscovered. Of course, now I know better but I never knew just how insidious some of the spiritual manifestations and teachings were.

I literally closed the book, swallowed hard and crossed myself, thanking God for guiding me to Holy Orthodoxy. I'm still a bit shaken up about it because I'm no stranger to diabolical spiritual manifestations with my occult background but I never realized how easy we are to decieve until I began studying Orthodox spirituality and read The Mountain of Silence. *shivers*

[MariaRegina]

I use that book, In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord only for reference as it is not a spiritual reading book.

The best spiritual reading comes from the Bible - the Book that our Orthodox Church canonized.

[Dust and Ashes]

The best spiritual reading comes from the Bible - the Book that our Orthodox Church canonized.

Very true. I've found that the deeper I move into Orthodoxy, the more sense the Holy Scriptures make when read from an Orthodox perspective. I guess it's because for the first time, I'm reading the Bible in context and not filtering it to make it fit the doctrines I've been taught or adapted for my own personal reasons.

I'm not reading In Peace for the spirituality, just for reference, like you said. That doesn't change how disturbing it is to learn many of the "hidden" facts about the history of the movement or to look at it from an Orthodox perspective.

[Stefan Davidovich]

Just out of curiosity (I haven't read the book) what are the manifestations and teachings that you found particularly disturbing? I've done a little reading about the Azusa Street revival, but I admit I don't know a great deal about the movement.

I had thought highly of the movement...I too imagined it as renewal of the apostolic church.

Anyway, your help would be most appreciated. Always eager to learn. :)

[Maximus]

Fr. Alexis (Trader)

Anyone read it? I'm reading it currently and am somewhat disturbed by some of the things I've learned about Pentecostalism. I knew a little but I didn't know much about the history of the movement. I'd pretty much heard about Parham at the turn of the century and the Azusa St. "revival" but otherwise had no clue. I just figured it was the 1st century Church rediscovered. Of course, now I know better but I never knew just how insidious some of the spiritual manifestations and teachings were.

I literally closed the book, swallowed hard and crossed myself, thanking God for guiding me to Holy Orthodoxy. I'm still a bit shaken up about it because I'm no stranger to diabolical spiritual manifestations with my occult background but I never realized how easy we are to decieve until I began studying Orthodox spirituality and read The Mountain of Silence. *shivers*

You know, I have had that book for quite some time but haven't read it yet. I think I will read it now that you are, so we can discuss it here.

Have you read Fr. Seraphim Rose's Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future? It has a pretty good section on the Charismatic Movement.

I am currently reading Fr. Justin Popovich's Orthodox Faith and Life in Christ.

What an amazing man!

He will probably be canonized soon, since I understand there have been a number of miracles associated with his relics.

[Dust and Ashes]

Just out of curiosity (I haven't read the book) what are the manifestations and teachings that you found particularly disturbing? I've done a little reading about the Azusa Street revival, but I admit I don't know a great deal about the movement.

I had thought highly of the movement...I too imagined it as renewal of the apostolic church.

Anyway, your help would be most appreciated. Always eager to learn. :)

This is a delicate subject, so I will just relate something from the book itself. Charles Parham is credited with being the "father of the Pentecostal movement and it relates how he went to Azusa Street and was dismayed to find "hypnotic influences, familiar spirit influences, spiritualistic influences, mesomeric influences, all kinds of spells, spasms, falling trances, etc..."

"While Parham was honest enough to recognize the presence of the fraudulent and demonic, it remains a mystery how he could distinguish between spiritual and non-spiritual jabbering. For his honesty, Parham was pad-locked out of the meetings and with him the teaching that one can receive a spirit other than the Holy Spirit was padlocked out of the Pentecostal movement."

I came from a Pentecostal/Charismatic background so I've been in many, many services with tongues, running the aisles, screaming, jumping, "slain in the spirit" and other manifestations. I always had trouble yielding to the spiritual influences because I was deeply involved in the occult before becoming a Christian and had channelled demons, participated in seances, scrying, etc and was just had a strong aversion to yielding control of my body to an external force.

But the book is not anti-Pentecostal. It is mainly about the Orthodox view of the gifts of the Spirit and since tongues is on the list, it has to cover them and no treatment of tongues would be complete without discussing the Pentecostal movement.

[Dust and Ashes]

You know, I have had that book for quite some time but haven't read it yet. I think I will read it now that you are, so we can discuss it here.

Have you read Fr. Seraphim Rose's Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future? It has a pretty good section on the Charismatic Movement.

I am currently reading Fr. Justin Popovich's Orthodox Faith and Life in Christ.

What an amazing man!

He will probably be canonized soon, since I understand there have been a number of miracles associated with his relics.

I read Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future early in my inquiry but I want to read it again since I have a better understanding of things now and I'd be glad to discuss this one as I read it. I'm also reading Patrick Barnes' Non-Orthodox book and struggling with the ecumenism issue a bit.

[Maximus]

I read Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future early in my inquiry but I want to read it again since I have a better understanding of things now and I'd be glad to discuss this one as I read it. I'm also reading Patrick Barnes' Non-Orthodox book and struggling with the ecumenism issue a bit.

I read the Barnes book awhile back. It's pretty good.

Have you read Dr. Alexander Kalomiros' The Touchstone (http://www.hocna.org/defense/touchstone.pdf) and Against False Union (http://www.zephyr.gr/stjohn/per-agai.htm)?

They are must reads for someone struggling with ecumenism.

I just finished reading Constantine Cavarnos' Ecumenism Examined. It's good, too, but The Touchstone is a real eye-opener.

[Dust and Ashes]

I read the Barnes book awhile back. It's pretty good.

Have you read Dr. Alexander Kalomiros' The Touchstone (http://www.hocna.org/defense/touchstone.pdf) and Against False Union (http://www.zephyr.gr/stjohn/per-agai.htm)?

They are must reads for someone struggling with ecumenism.

I just finished reading Constantine Cavarnos' Ecumenism Examined. It's good, too, but The Touchstone is a real eye-opener.

Thanks, I'll check them out soon.

[katherine2001]

What is scary to me is that they seem to teach that no evil spirits could come upon them so not to even worry about that. That is totally unscriptural. That seems to totally ignore the fact that we're often warned that Satan/demons can appear as an angel of light and that we're to test the spirits. On a list I belong to, we've had a Catholic posting who feels very drawn to the Charismatic Catholic movement and a group of them that want to baptize this person in the Holy Spirit. I asked whether this person had thought about the idea that if he/she had hands laid on and was prayed over that he/she might be accepting a spirit into him/herself that isn't from God? I also pointed out the fact that in many stories from the desert fathers that it was the spiritual father who discerned whom a spirit came from and not the person involved.

[xenia]

From what I have read and observed, the Orthodox believe that signs and wonders, such as the gifts of prophecy, the word of knowledge, healing, etc. come a a Christian who is fairly advanced on his way to God. These gifts are given by God to elders and nuns and other holy people who have learned the humility to be able to use them. In the Pentecostal movement, everyone is encouraged to seek after these gifts, even the rawest convert.

[Dust and Ashes]

From what I have read and observed, the Orthodox believe that signs and wonders, such as the gifts of prophecy, the word of knowledge, healing, etc. come a a Christian who is fairly advanced on his way to God. These gifts are given by God to elders and nuns and other holy people who have learned the humility to be able to use them. In the Pentecostal movement, everyone is encouraged to seek after these gifts, even the rawest convert.

That's one of the key points he brings up regarding the movement. Holiness and purification are not even part of the equation. Anyone can manifest these "signs" if they will just get worked up enough, pray hard enough and "be open" or surrender control to the "spirit."

[Rilian]

I can't see or hear the words of this thread title now without immediately going "Lord have mercy" in my head.

Anyway, Bishop Kallistos wrote something good on this topic called Personal Experience Of The Holy Spirit According To The Greek Fathers (http://www.philthompson.net/pages/library/wareonhs.html).

I also ran across something once that I'll have to try and dig up. I think it was an interview with Fr. Michael Harper who was part of the charismatic movement before becoming an Orthodox priest.

[I think Xenia makes a good point btw]