Orthodox and prayer?

[Stefan Davidovich]

I hope you all don't mind me starting up a new thread. This question doesn't match my previous thread.

Prayer has been a subject of much consideration, study and prayer :) in my life these last 2 years. Needless to say, it matters to me a great deal (but in reality doesn't matter to me as much as it should). It was said on another thread that the Orthodox church defines a theologian as "one who prays" (a wonderful perspective).

So...I'm wondering how prayer is experienced in the Orthodox church (I am sure there is a great deal of variability but i mean in principle). I've heard that prayers are rarely extemporaneous (spelling? right word?). Is that true? How about private prayers - what do Orthodox teach about private prayer? What is the value of private prayer? Where does prayer fit in the grand scheme of things (in the Orthodox church) and why and how is it employed (this might be an appropriate way of summing up my questions)?

Thank you all for your continued help. I am learning a great deal thanks to your gracious answers...and I appreciate your patience.

Your brother in Christ,

Stephen

[Maximus]

Since we pray together during the Divine Liturgy, the prayers that are spoken aloud are a part of the liturgy and cannot therefore be spontaneous and free form.

The prayers that are spoken in the hearts of individual parishioners, however, are probably mostly of that kind.

Most of my private prayers are entirely my own.

Sometimes, however, it is extremely helpful to use a prayerbook with prayers that were written by the saints. I have often found that they said the things I wanted to say, but they said them better or expressed something I had not yet been able to frame into words for myself.

Sometimes it is helpful, too, to write down our own prayers before praying them, borrowing freely from an Orthodox prayerbook and/or Holy Scripture.

Anyway, those are my two kopeks. :)

[Dust and Ashes]

It's entirely dependent on the individual. I use "pre-fab" prayers almost exclusively simply because I couldn't articulate what I want to say better. But they are still private prayers because I don't say them mechanically but rather "make them my own." Often I will weep during my prayers simply because of the deeply expressive nature of the prayers and how they actually draw out what I need to be praying about. It's kind of like saying "I love you" to my wife. Sure I say it 20+ times a day, but I mean it every single time. ;)

[Vasya Davidovich]

I hope you all don't mind me starting up a new thread.
Not at all. Keep asking questions, and we'll keep answering them. Your open questioning and your gentleness are much appreciated.

It was said on another thread that the Orthodox church defines a theologian as "one who prays" (a wonderful perspective).
How can one study God if one does not know Him?
How can know Him but through constant communion with Him?
How can commune with Him but through the Divine Liturgy and prayer?
A theologian cannot be a theologian unless he is in full communion with the Church, participating and praying in her services, and praying at home and at work. A theologian prays. Nothing else works.

So...I'm wondering how prayer is experienced in the Orthodox church (I am sure there is a great deal of variability but i mean in principle). I've heard that prayers are rarely extemporaneous (spelling? right word?). Is that true?
In the services of the Church, the prayers are set by Tradition, and so are not extemporaneous at all (though the preaching is). In Church we are praying as a body, so we pray what the Body of Christ (the Church) has taught us to pray. The prayers themselves then teach us how to better our praying, and deepen our understanding of God.

How about private prayers - what do Orthodox teach about private prayer? What is the value of private prayer?
Private prayer can be made during the services of the Church, at work, at home... anywhere you are, in fact. The Orthodox Church goes one step further... rather than say one can pray everywhere, she urges us to pray everywhere, to pray without ceasing.

Where does prayer fit in the grand scheme of things (in the Orthodox church) and why and how is it employed (this might be an appropriate way of summing up my questions)?
Prayer permeates the Orthodox Church. We are called to pray at all times, by the Church, by Tradition, by sacred Scripture. The services themselves are pretty much non-stop prayer, and then there are countless suggested prayers to pray at home (written by Saints and theologians). Then we have private extemporaneous prayer, and finally, just to make things fun, the Jesus Prayer:
"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."

[Vasya Davidovich]

...and finally, just to make things fun, the Jesus Prayer:
"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."


Kurie Ihsou Criste, uie tou Qeou, elehson me, ton amartwlon.


Corrected my Greek. I had made two spelling mistakes. Unfortunately, I am not able to do the accents or the aspiration marks with "Symbol" type font.

[Maximus]

If you are interested in an excellent Orthodox prayerbook, you can get one here (http://conciliarpress.bizhosting.com/prayer_book_jordanville_.html).

It is the Jordanville Prayerbook of Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, New York.

Every Orthodox Christian should have one.

(It's not mandatory. I just think it's a wonderful little prayerbook.:) )

[Vasya Davidovich]

If you are interested in an excellent Orthodox prayerbook, you can get one here (http://conciliarpress.bizhosting.com/prayer_book_jordanville_.html).

It is the Jordanville Prayerbook of Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, New York.

Every Orthodox Christian should have one.

(It's not mandatory. I just think it's a wonderful little prayerbook.:) )
I second that.

It is my favourite also. (Regrettably, I don't have it. *sigh*)

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Hi, Stephen.:wave: Prayer is a fantastic subject to bring up, especially during Great Lent, which is a time of fasting, prayer, and almsgiving for Orthodox Christians. St. Theophan the Recluse wrote some very good and practical advice on prayer. You can read some of it here: http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/prayer_theofan_e.htmGenerally speaking, all Orthodox Christians are given a daily rule of prayer. St. Theophan addressed this in the link above. Also, if you'd like to see the Jordanville Prayer Book (which is wonderful, provided you don't mind King James style English), it can be looked at here: www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/prayerbook/main.htm (http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/prayerbook/main.htm) Most of the prayers in my daily prayer rule are found there. There are a lot of other great links I could give you on prayer from an Orthodox perspective, but I don't want to overwhelm you with links. I'll post more later.:)

[CopticGirl]

Do you guys have a standard prayer book that some of you use all the time? One that would be similar to the Coptic Orthodox agpeya: www.agpeya.org (http://www.agpeya.org)?

The agpeya is divided into 7 hours, which one would do at certain times during the day. Each are similar in format. There are a few standard prayers at the beginning: Thanksgiving prayer, intro to every hour, Lord's prayer. And then we also say the creed, read a few psalms, a short gospel passage, and a few more prayers at the end. :prayer:

Do you guys have a prayer book like that?

God Bless.

[countrymouse33ad]

CG, there are several different prayer books available to us that contain prayers of the hours (the horologion); morning prayers, first hour (about 7 a.m.), 3rd hour (the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost), 6th hour (when Christ was crucified), 9th hour (when Christ died), vespers, evening prayers, and midnight prayers.

[Mary of Bethany]

Stefan,

I'm sure I'm not saying this right, but I'll try - and someone else, please come and clean up whatever mess I make of it. :)

The "west" tends to try to know, and even worship, God through rational means. Orthodoxy teaches that God can best be known by the heart - the heart is the part of us that communicates directly with God. "Head knowledge" is secondary. That is why prayer is absolutely the beginning, the middle, and the end of our lives in Christ. And why theology can not be separated from prayer. I hope this makes a little bit of sense.

Mary

[The Virginian]

As i grow older in Holy Orthodoxy I find that more than a few things that Protestants say are not all "bad", or in the least of instances, have some truth in them. This is true concerning prayer. "The prayer life of the Church will only be as great as the prayer life of it's weakest member."

The Divine Liturgy of the Orthodox is broken into several parts. Each of these is punctuated by what we call "Litanies"; one is the Great Litany, and the others are "Little." The familiar refrain at the start of each "...again and again in peace let us pray to the Lord..." lets the Othodox worshipper know that while these are standard in the Church, in reality they are the corporate prayers of the Body of Christ.

AS Mary of Bethany has said above, the Church teaches that true prayer is that which comes from the heart, even as the Psalmist has said, "...Pour out your heart to God, for He is a refuge for us." This is what prayer is whether it be private, or corporate in nature. Prayer is corporating with God, submitting to His divine will; i.e., "...nevertheless not my will but thine be done. The Church teaches both formallly and through the example of the saints that private prayer, "prayer from the heart" can be, and is offered at all times and in all places.

Prayer Books are one of the 'tools' offered by the CHurch to her members to assist them in spiritual growth. The prayers are offered as a primer, a starting place for novices, as is the Psalms until they penetrate into, and emanate from, the heart. Prayer is the "work of the people" as they worship the Lord in spirit and truth.

A large part of Protestant teachings about prayer -while they emphasize the absolute neccessity of prayer- focuses on the changing of events, or circumstances. Whereas the Orthodox, through focusing on the interior, aim prayer at what is their ultimate goal, changing the moral center of man, on the way to "theosis."

[Stefan Davidovich]

Thank you everyone for your helpful answers. One answer I found particularly intriguing (most - if not all - is quite consistent with my own understanding). I would like to inquire further on this particular theme...



A large part of Protestant teachings about prayer -while they emphasize the absolute neccessity of prayer- focuses on the changing of events, or circumstances. Whereas the Orthodox, through focusing on the interior, aim prayer at what is their ultimate goal, changing the moral center of man, on the way to "theosis."


Could anyone develop this further? Do Orthodox ever attempt (through prayer) to change events or circumstances. Do you believe that prayer does this? Is there such a thing as "intercessory prayer" (as many in my circles call it)? How does the goal of "theosis" relate to a life of prayer (practically and in principle)?

Thanks for your help and thanks for your kind help.

Stephen

[Vasya Davidovich]

Thank you everyone for your helpful answers. One answer I found particularly intriguing (most - if not all - is quite consistent with my own understanding). I would like to inquire further on this particular theme..."A large part of Protestant teachings about prayer -while they emphasize the absolute neccessity of prayer- focuses on the changing of events, or circumstances. Whereas the Orthodox, through focusing on the interior, aim prayer at what is their ultimate goal, changing the moral center of man, on the way to "theosis."


Could anyone develop this further? Do Orthodox ever attempt (through prayer) to change events or circumstances. Do you believe that prayer does this? Is there such a thing as "intercessory prayer" (as many in my circles call it)? How does the goal of "theosis" relate to a life of prayer (practically and in principle)?

These are not exactly easy questions, but I will try to give an answer that expresses the Orthodox view to the best of my understanding of it.

First, Orthodox have a mystical theology of prayer as in all else. We believe both in the prayer that interceeds that the prayer that says "Thy Will be done." And then we let God work out the exact details. I know that I am to pray for my loved ones, for those who hurt me and whom I have hurt, that I am to pray for my government and those in authority over me... and so forth. So I do. And when someone is particularly hurting and my heart stirs within me, I pray intercessory prayers, interceeding on their behalf before the Lord that he would have mercy on them. But then again, I always end with the eternal "Amen": Let it be according to Thy Will.

Second, there seems to be a way of understanding this seeming contradiction between interceeding and the eternal Amen. It is this: that intercessions are inevitably more for us than for the people we are praying for. That laying all our hopes and dreams and desires and concerns before the Lord changes us (perhaps it changes that which we desire to change as well - the objects of our intercessions - but we are not given to know this). This self-change is theosis, where we are being changed to be like God. Here Orthodox believe that if we truly change, are truly converted, are truly united with God, then the world will change - convert - around us. That by becoming united with God we are becoming living little Christs, healing and blessing the cosmos about us.

[Vasya Davidovich]

The above barely touches on the theme of theosis, but I thought I would limit myself to the theme of theosis only insofar as it touched directly on your questions.

Theosis is a big topic, and perhaps the most easily misunderstood by Protestants examining the Orthodox faith. I will give it some thought and see if there is a way to sum it up handily. Alternatively, one of my brothers or sisters in TAW could give it a whirl.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Thank you everyone for your helpful answers. One answer I found particularly intriguing (most - if not all - is quite consistent with my own understanding). I would like to inquire further on this particular theme...

Could anyone develop this further? Do Orthodox ever attempt (through prayer) to change events or circumstances. Do you believe that prayer does this? Is there such a thing as "intercessory prayer" (as many in my circles call it)? How does the goal of "theosis" relate to a life of prayer (practically and in principle)?

Thanks for your help and thanks for your kind help.

Stephen
I'll try.:) I think when we pray for others, we die a little more to our own selfishness (the flesh nature), which helps us to grow more and more like Christ. This is what theosis is: Becoming more and more like Christ, who is fully God (and fully man). Hence, we become like God. Orthodoxy is all about communion, not only with God, but with all mankind. It is not good for man to be alone, nor is it good to try to serve God alone (even God is not an individual, but of a triune nature). So, through praying for one another, we unite ourselves to them, and at the same time lay aside our own tendency to be too focussed on ourselves (not that praying for ourselves is not good, it's important too). When we Orthodox pray, we usually pray as a member of the Body of Christ (i.e., Deliver us from evil...), and not just for ourselves (though some prayers are written with individual needs in mind). This is the connection I see between prayer and theosis.

[Vasya Davidovich]

I'll try.:) I think when we pray for others, we die a little more to our own selfishness (the flesh nature), which helps us to grow more and more like Christ. This is what theosis is: Becoming more and more like Christ, who is fully God (and fully man). Hence, we become like God. Orthodoxy is all about communion, not only with God, but with all mankind. It is not good for man to be alone, nor is it good to try to serve God alone (even God is not an individual, but of a triune nature). So, through praying for one another, we unite ourselves to them, and at the same time lay aside our own tendency to be too focussed on ourselves (not that praying for ourselves is not good, it's important too).
I think Elizaveta hit upon a significant and powerful truth here.

I have heard it said that God made us in two sexes and gave us the joys of sexual congress so that we could learn what 2 becoming 1 was all about. There is a definite union going on... but we do not lose ourselves in the process. ... Uniting with God is like that, as mystical writings will show us. We do not lose ourselves in Him, but unite with Him. 2 become 1.

As I cast my mind about descriptions of the Church, I realize how often the theme of communion comes up. We eat the Body and Blood, and we commune. We pray, we commune. When we join together as two or more in His name, we commune. ... The Church is called the Body of Christ, where many have been made one. The Church is called the Bride of Christ, where we are being prepared to unite with Him fully in that Heavenly marriage supper. ... Christianity is about union and communion, and I think that only the Orthodox have an understanding of it. We call it theosis.

[The Virginian]

I'm sorry that I "muddied the waters" somewhat with my earlier post. If in point of fact, God is all that we say he is -omnipotent, omniscent, omnipresent- then prayer does not inform Him of anything. If then prayer does not inform God, who looks upon the heart, it follows then that prayer must be for an entirely different reason. Prayer is for us humans! Through prayer God opens our eyes to His viewpoint.

The history of the Orthodox Church is replete with the prayers of the saints for "things", health most notably, protection from harm. By prayer, both corporate and private, we encourage one another, ..."building each other up in the faith..." When prayer is offered concerning a "circumstance" it's not so as the Apostle James would say, "...that we may consume it upon our own lusts...", but for the good of those with whom we share "communion" in the Body of Christ(Re: Grand_ Duchess Elizaveta)
As for the personal aspect of prayer, (as I shared somewhere else), I personally see it this way: In my flesh I am replete with the darkness of sin, which has it's tentacles throughout my being. When I come to prayer, I approach God who, among His other attributes, is Light. Light then shines into every crevice of my being, so that while I may interceed for another it is "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner." Consequently the more the discipline of prayer is practiced, the more Light shines into and through me illuminating sin for what it is, purging me and therefore changing me more and more into a "Child of The Light".

I do not aim to confuse, it's just that I sometimes forget to K.I.S.S, i.e., keep it simple stupid.




"Let your light so shine before men that they may
see your good works, and glorify your Father in heaven."

[Vasya Davidovich]

I'm sorry that I "muddied the waters" somewhat with my earlier post.
...
I do not aim to confuse, it's just that I sometimes forget to K.I.S.S, i.e., keep it simple stupid.
...
I don't think that you were that confusing, or that you necessarily muddied the waters. You just touched on something that is a part of Orthodox understanding of prayer, and that needed to be explored.

And I am glad for the direction this thread has taken - these are big themes, and aren't often addressed in TAW.

[Vasya Davidovich]

The above barely touches on the theme of theosis, but I thought I would limit myself to the theme of theosis only insofar as it touched directly on your questions.

Theosis is a big topic, and perhaps the most easily misunderstood by Protestants examining the Orthodox faith. I will give it some thought and see if there is a way to sum it up handily. Alternatively, one of my brothers or sisters in TAW could give it a whirl.
Rilian, Maximus, Prawnik, Monica (or anyone else of a scholarly bent...):

Would you mind helping me sum up theosis in simple terms? I've thought it over, but I can't seem to get my thoughts neatly ordered on this one. It's a big topic, and I am still on the steep side of the learning curve.

Yours in Christ,
Vasya.

[gzt]

"God became man so that we might become God." We really believe that Christ lives in us and we in Christ, and that if we let Him, God will make us like Him by grace.