Orthodox view on things Catholic

[stray bullet]

Does the Orthodox Church teach that the (Roman) Catholic Church has Apostolic Succession?
Do the Orthodox believe they have valid sacraments (particularly the eucharist) as the Catholic Church teaches of the Orthodox?

Is there is an issue if someone in the Orthodox Church believes the opposite (being too extreme or too liberal, whichever the answer is)?

[Orthosdoxa]

Oh dear... Stray Bullet, you know I love you more than my luggage, but so often these discussions get so ugly. I dread seeing them started.

Here's my summation: While you may get extremist views on either end, I think MOST Orthodox don't worry about whether or not someone else's Eucharist or Apostolic Succession is "valid" (a concept not really used in the East anyway.) In fact, it never gets discussed, that I've seen, unless a Catholic asks! I think MOST of us, while acknowledging that some teachings in the RC Church are heretical, also acknowledge that God's grace is not forced into some boundary, not even the boundaries of His Church (which we of course believe is us!) While I will not back down and say that we're just alike, or two lungs in the same body (I actually really hate that analogy), I also know that although we have the fullness of the Truth, this does not mean there is no truth anywhere else. I love my Catholic brothers and sisters, and I know they love Jesus, and despite what we see as the shortcomings of Catholic teaching I fully expect to see many of them in heaven.

LK

[stray bullet]

Oh dear... Stray Bullet, you know I love you more than my luggage, but so often these discussions get so ugly. I dread seeing them started.

Here's my summation: While you may get extremist views on either end, I think MOST Orthodox don't worry about whether or not someone else's Eucharist or Apostolic Succession is "valid" (a concept not really used in the East anyway.) In fact, it never gets discussed, that I've seen, unless a Catholic asks! I think MOST of us, while acknowledging that some teachings in the RC Church are heretical, also acknowledge that God's grace is not forced into some boundary, not even the boundaries of His Church (which we of course believe is us!) While I will not back down and say that we're just alike, or two lungs in the same body (I actually really hate that analogy), I also know that although we have the fullness of the Truth, this does not mean there is no truth anywhere else.
LK

I just wondered if there were an clear position on the matter by the Orthodox. I was particularly interested if that was in any way related to the forbidding of Orthodox from communion at Catholic masses.
If there is no clear teaching from the Orthodox on the issue and it is basically up to individual opinion, then that is a sufficient answer.

Let us suppose, for instance, that a Catholic joined the Orthodox and went to confession. Would he or she confess as if it were their first or from the time of their last confession?

I love my Catholic brothers and sisters, and I know they love Jesus, and despite what we see as the shortcomings of Catholic teaching I fully expect to see many of them in heaven.

Well, I certainly think that of protestants and Orthodox. Although, given my limited experience in Orthodox teachings, I'm quite a fit fuzzy how the teachings of the Orthodox regards the Catholic Church. I'm hoping I can use the topic not to get personal opinions (which might cause concerns as you pointed out), but clarity :)

[Matrona]

I just wondered if there were an clear position on the matter by the Orthodox. I was particularly interested if that was in any way related to the forbidding of Orthodox from communion at Catholic masses.
If there is no clear teaching from the Orthodox on the issue and it is basically up to individual opinion, then that is a sufficient answer.

Orthodox are forbidden to receive communion there because of the teachings y'all espouse that we don't, and the teachings we espouse that you don't. I don't feel free to elaborate on this so I will leave it as that.

We adhere to the Irenaean view of apostolic succession, although you will sometimes find some Orthodox who believe in the Augustinian view.

Please note that, IMHO, holding the Irenaean view doesn't at ALL preclude the Holy Spirit or God's grace existing outside the Orthodox Church.

Let us suppose, for instance, that a Catholic joined the Orthodox and went to confession. Would he or she confess as if it were their first or from the time of their last confession?

Ideally, Orthodox have one confessor with whom they have a relationship with--the confessor is called that person's spiritual father. Since confession is handled a little bit differently in Orthodoxy, it would be best if the catechumen began at the beginning. This isn't to negate any grace s/he received by confessing as a Roman Catholic, but rather to help brief the confessor on the sins this person has been struggling with and to get an idea of his/her spiritual development.

[stray bullet]

Orthodox are forbidden to receive communion there because of the teachings y'all espouse that we don't, and the teachings we espouse that you don't. I don't feel free to elaborate on this so I will leave it as that.

We adhere to the Irenaean view of apostolic succession, although you will sometimes find some Orthodox who believe in the Augustinian view.

Please note that, IMHO, holding the Irenaean view doesn't at ALL preclude the Holy Spirit or God's grace existing outside the Orthodox Church.

Well, I know your view of it from previous posts, however, how would you define "we"? We as in the majority of the Orthodox or "we", being the Orthodox, with some people existing who disagree with Orthodox teachings?


I would consider in whose parishes the bloody and body of Christ appears in and the ability to confess a pretty important issue. I realize that might not be the case with all people. I came from a protestant background, so the significance, for me, is very important. Release from sin and communion are my focus in life.

I guess the question basically boils down to, does the Orthodox view Catholic communion the same way Catholics view protestant communion?
Do the Orthodox teach that if you went to a Catholic parish, would you see the blood and body of Christ, or only wine and wafers?
If there is not a yes or no answer, as the Orthodox do not teach on the matter specifically and it is really up to the individual to believe as they wish, I'd like to know that.

[Maximus]

This (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/prot_rc_heresy.aspx) is an interesting article.

[Aymn27]

Ideally, Orthodox have one confessor with whom they have a relationship with--the confessor is called that person's spiritual father. Since confession is handled a little bit differently in Orthodoxy, it would be best if the catechumen began at the beginning. This isn't to negate any grace s/he received by confessing as a Roman Catholic, but rather to help brief the confessor on the sins this person has been struggling with and to get an idea of his/her spiritual development.

How is it different? - very interesting on having just one confessor, is he also your spiritual director of sorts?? The RCC does not allow a spiritual director to be your confessor. Thanks for insights!!

[Veritas_et_Puritas]

The RCC does not allow a spiritual director to be your confessor.

Yes, it does. Provided that the spiritual director is, of course, a Catholic priest.

[Alexis OCA]

Yes, it does. Provided that the spiritual director is, of course, a Catholic priest.

That is true and was my situation when I was in a RC College Seminary as well as when I spent a brief time in an RC religious order. My spiritual director was my confessor as well.

[Aymn27]

Yes, it does. Provided that the spiritual director is, of course, a Catholic priest.
Perhaps I am wrong, but I thought i had read that Canon Law forbade it - may be my mistake!

[Matrona]

How is it different? - very interesting on having just one confessor, is he also your spiritual director of sorts??

I'm not entirely clear on what a spiritual director is in Roman Catholicism.

In Orthodoxy, a spiritual father doesn't necessarily have to hear one's confession. Monks who aren't priests, and nuns, can't hear a confession although they can give you spiritual guidance, and that person would still be called your spiritual father or spiritual mother--you'd have to make confession to someone else, though, of course.

Aside from that, though, an Orthodox Christian usually comes to one priest for confession. Confession is sometimes done in the priest's office, but is usually made in the church itself. (If others are in the church, the priest will have someone reading, or the choir will be singing, in order to preserve the penitent's privacy.) Prior to confession, the penitent is expected to fast and reflect on his sins, especially the ones that are troubling and trapping him the most. When he is ready, the penitent stands in front of the icon of Christ and the confessor, who being a priest will be vested and carrying his blessing cross, stands beside him to guide him, because the confession is made to Christ, and the confessor stands as a witness and guide on behalf of the Church. The confessor tells him to begin, and they discuss what is said.

When the penitent has finished, the confessor picks up his stole and places it around the shoulders of the penitent and asks that the same God who forgave King David, et. al., also forgive the penitent and absolve his sins. Placing the stole is symbolic of the Church embracing the penitent (the fringes on it symbolize the souls under the care of the priest wearing it, btw), and with his blessing cross, the priest makes the sign of the cross behind the neck of the penitent, and the confession is finished. In most cases the priest will not assign penance, but if he does, the penitent is expected to fulfill it and to abstain from the Eucharist for the specified period of time, and to confess once more before the penance is lifted.

More general confessions are sometimes seen, but they are meant for people who don't have a serious sin and are dependent on the conscience of the penitent.

[Michael the Iconographer]

How is it different? - very interesting on having just one confessor, is he also your spiritual director of sorts?? The RCC does not allow a spiritual director to be your confessor. Thanks for insights!!

Actually, the RCC does allow your spiritual director to be your confessor. The priest who was my spiritual director while in seminary at St. Vincent in Latrobe, PA was also my confessor. We would often end spiritual direction sessions with confession.

[Maximus]

Actually, the RCC does allow your spiritual director to be your confessor. The priest who was my spiritual director while in seminary at St. Vincent in Latrobe, PA was also my confessor. We would often end spiritual direction sessions with confession.

Latrobe?

Downed a few Rolling Rocks, have we? :cool:

(When my family came from Germany long long ago, they settled in Lancaster.)

[Michael the Iconographer]

Latrobe?

Downed a few Rolling Rocks, have we? :cool:

(When my family came from Germany long long ago, they settled in Lancaster.)

Yeah, I even downed a few Rolling Rocks with my spiritual advisor! (no kidding) St. Vincent Archabbey in Latrobe was the original brewer of Rolling Rock!

[Maximus]

Yeah, I even downed a few Rolling Rocks with my spiritual advisor! (no kidding) St. Vincent Archabbey in Latrobe was the original brewer of Rolling Rock!

Cool! :thumbsup:

I also like Yuengling, but that's Pottsville.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Cool! :thumbsup:

I also like Yuengling, but that's Pottsville.

Yuengling is better than Rolling Rock if you ask me. But then, nothing compares to Paulaner HefeWeizen! You have to love the fact that German Monks were among some of Bavaria's best beer makers!

[Maximus]

Yuengling is better than Rolling Rock if you ask me. But then, nothing compares to Paulaner HefeWeizen! You have to love the fact that German Monks were among some of Bavaria's best beer makers!

I agree completely, especially about Paulaner Hefeweizen.

For a regular Pils, I like Bitburger and Pilsner Urquell.

I really love Celebrator Doppelbock and Spaten Optimator.

I guess we've gotten off topic.

Notice how often talk of food and beverages comes up during Lent? ;)

[Michael the Iconographer]

Weltenburger Kloester Asambock is another of my favorite German Biers!

[Michael the Iconographer]

Bitte, ein BIT!

[stray bullet]

I agree completely, especially about Paulaner Hefeweizen.

For a regular Pils, I like Bitburger and Pilsner Urquell.

I really love Celebrator Doppelbock and Spaten Optimator.

I guess we've gotten off topic.

Notice how often talk of food and beverages comes up during Lent? ;)

I had no idea how much beer was advertised until recently...


Doppelbock is great, one of my favorite styles. German wheat beers and European pilsners are good, but they get boring after a while.
Belgian ales are hands down my favorite :)

Yuengling though, is darn good for the price.

[Maximus]

I had no idea how much beer was advertised until recently...


Doppelbock is great, one of my favorite styles. German wheat beers and European pilsners are good, but they get boring after a while.
Belgian ales are hands down my favorite :)

Yuengling though, is darn good for the price.

That's what I like about Yuengling and Rolling Rock, too.

Lots o' good PA Dutch beer, low price. :thumbsup:

As a person of Pennsylvania Dutch (Deutsch) extraction whose family went south (or sideways, or something), I appreciate both qualities.

[stray bullet]

That's what I like about Yuengling and Rolling Rock, too.

Lots o' good PA Dutch beer, low price. :thumbsup:

As a person of Pennsylvania Dutch (Deutsch) extraction whose family went south (or sideways, or something), I appreciate both qualities.

I'm not impressed with Rolling Rock, it costs a little more than dirt cheap beer and isn't as complex as Yuengling. I've taken up brewing again, so I don't expect to look into buying cheap beer for a while. When I did though, never considered Rolling Rock.

[Maximus]

I'm not impressed with Rolling Rock, it costs a little more than dirt cheap beer and isn't as complex as Yuengling. I've taken up brewing again, so I don't expect to look into buying cheap beer for a while. When I did though, never considered Rolling Rock.

Snob! (Just kidding!) ;)

I'm a homebrewer myself, although I gave it up when I moved to Russia a few years ago.

I intend to get back into it again. I used to have a fairly elaborate set-up and brewed from malted grain (had the mill and the whole nine yards).

It was fun.

[stray bullet]

Snob! (Just kidding!) ;)

I'm a homebrewer myself, although I gave it up when I moved to Russia a few years ago.

I intend to get back into it again. I used to have a fairly elaborate set-up and brewed from malted grain (had the mill and the whole nine yards).

It was fun.

Not too much of a snob, I buy cheap malt liquor now and then ;)
I just like value in a beer I suppose :P

I've gone up to all-grain, but for now doing extract/grain to make sure I know what I am doing still.

[ExOrienteLux]

It's kinda interesting just watching this thread get more and more OT.

Don't mind me, though. I'm just a friendly reminder. :) ;)

[Michael the Iconographer]

I had no idea how much beer was advertised until recently...


Doppelbock is great, one of my favorite styles. German wheat beers and European pilsners are good, but they get boring after a while.
Belgian ales are hands down my favorite :)

Yuengling though, is darn good for the price.

German Weizens get boring after a while? Anathema!

[Rilian]

Yuengling? Rolling Rock? HERESY!!!! Next you guys are going to be suggesting people drink glorified tap water like Iron City. :D

Seriously, there's much better beer from here in the Keystone state. Yards Brewing (http://www.yardsbrewing.com/ales/index.htm) in Philly is really good, especially their love stout which is brewed with Oysters. Their Belgian style saison is good too.

Victory (http://www.victorybeer.com/) is the best beer I've had in PA hands down, at least at their brewery because they sell stuff there that they don't bottle. Their bitters is just like one you would get in a good English pub. Their bottled stuff is good too though. I'm not usually much of a lager drinker but the St. Boisterous is good.

Stoudt's (http://www.stoudtburg.com/1-bottle-conditioned.asp#1) is from Lancaster County. Their tripple is good.

Weyerbacher (http://www.weyerbacher.com/cwo/Our_Beers/) is from Easton. I had their IPA is was good, and I think their hops infusion which was terrible.

For imported beers, I don't think there's much around that can beat Brouwerij Van Steenberge (http://www.globalbeer.com/web/body_pages/pages-breweries/BrVanSteenberge.html). Especially the Augustijn, Bornem Double and Piraat are all great.

[Michael the Iconographer]

If you want to talk about IPA's, the Grand Daddy of all IPA's is Dogfish 90 Minute IPA! IT ROCKS!

[Michael the Iconographer]

Maybe I just really need to start a Beer thread?

[RobNJ]

Maybe I just really need to start a Beer thread?

I thought this WAS the beer thread???:scratch:




:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Rilian]

If you want to talk about IPA's, the Grand Daddy of all IPA's is Dogfish 90 Minute IPA! IT ROCKS!

Yeah, it is good.

[Veritas_et_Puritas]

I'm not entirely clear on what a spiritual director is in Roman Catholicism.

In Orthodoxy, a spiritual father doesn't necessarily have to hear one's confession. Monks who aren't priests, and nuns, can't hear a confession although they can give you spiritual guidance, and that person would still be called your spiritual father or spiritual mother--you'd have to make confession to someone else, though, of course.

Teehee, this thread has been hijacked with talk about beer! ;)

Perhaps our concept of spiritual direction could just be explained as the opportunity to reflect with a qualified spiritual director about one's life, its events, and one's relationships with God and others. The spiritual director helps the individual under their direction to grow in intimacy with God and to live out the fruits of this new-found intimacy. It is different from pastoral counselling in that its goal is not to solve problems, per se - spiritual direction is intended to help one come into closer union with God through prayer, through dedication, and through the offering of oneself to others in any number of ways.

Does that sound similar to what you are talking about? :)

[Xpycoctomos]

This is my take (on the OP.. not beer).

The Orthodox Church does not have any "official standing" on the Catholic Church other than that (from our point of view) it is in Schism. But we all no this is the OC stance. Because of that, She has no reason to have any official stance on the validity of her sacraments, apostolic succession etc. It's not our church. The Church is to run the affairs of herself and bring those outside to the light... the Church, the body of Christ. Every Orthodox (especially us converts in the West who think about this kind of stuff... probably more than is good for us) will have his or her own opinion. I think their sacraments are real... I can't imagine that the sacraments would be outside the Church... blab lab lab.. Whatever. In the end, we aren't in communion but, sadly, separated and therefore it makes no sense for us to act as if we are one body when we still ahve many important issues to resolve before we will ACTUALLY be on in mind and spirit.

Anonykay (I think), however, made an excellent point. God's hands are not tied by the Church, we, rather, are tied by his hands. The Holy Spirit goes where He will and I think we can see the fruits of His grace outside of the Canonical Boundaries of the Church. Weather that "validates" (so juridical in nature) sacraments or not... the OC has NO place in judging this at all. It would be silly and out of place to do so.

This of course is not to say that a Bishop or even Patriarch has never said anything concerning his view on the RC. But a patriarch cannot decree anything about the Faith without the support of the whole Church, let alone decree anything about another Body.

John

[Maximus]

Yuengling? Rolling Rock? HERESY!!!! Next you guys are going to be suggesting people drink glorified tap water like Iron City. :D

Seriously, there's much better beer from here in the Keystone state. Yards Brewing (http://www.yardsbrewing.com/ales/index.htm) in Philly is really good, especially their love stout which is brewed with Oysters. Their Belgian style saison is good too.

Victory (http://www.victorybeer.com/) is the best beer I've had in PA hands down, at least at their brewery because they sell stuff there that they don't bottle. Their bitters is just like one you would get in a good English pub. Their bottled stuff is good too though. I'm not usually much of a lager drinker but the St. Boisterous is good.

Stoudt's (http://www.stoudtburg.com/1-bottle-conditioned.asp#1) is from Lancaster County. Their tripple is good.

Weyerbacher (http://www.weyerbacher.com/cwo/Our_Beers/) is from Easton. I had their IPA is was good, and I think their hops infusion which was terrible.

For imported beers, I don't think there's much around that can beat Brouwerij Van Steenberge (http://www.globalbeer.com/web/body_pages/pages-breweries/BrVanSteenberge.html). Especially the Augustijn, Bornem Double and Piraat are all great.

Taking the thread back off topic for a moment, I have taken the brewery tour at Stoudt's in Lancaster a couple of times.

Great place, great beer! :thumbsup:

One nice thing is that the place is surrounded by antique shops, antique malls, etc.

That'll keep your wife occupied while you soak up some . . . er . . . atmosphere.

[countrymouse33ad]

(When my family came from Germany long long ago, they settled in Lancaster.)

:cool:

Maximus, my family came from Germany to PA too! in the 1700's - from Pfungstadt, and settled in Montgomery Co.

[Maximus]

:cool:

Maximus, my family came from Germany to PA too! in the 1700's - from Pfungstadt, and settled in Montgomery Co.

Mine came over in 1763, but I am not sure from which city or region. My best guess is Hessen, but I don't know for sure. They were Lutherans.

[countrymouse33ad]

Mine were Lutherans, too, but some of the North Carolina branch (my branch) do not want to admit it. (They became baptists after moving down the trail to the NC foothills.)

[Xpycoctomos]

Mine were Lutheran too (both sides) and we are not sure exactly where they came from (no real serious investigation went into it). They did help found Schaumburg, Illinois (my dad's side), a suburb of Chicago, so my guess whould be that they came from a town called Schaumburg in Germany????? Hmmm.. could be a lead... as you can see... I've never put real effort into this.

Anyway.. Lutheran, openning gifts on Christmas eve (so much better than openning them early in the morning... that's for sleeping!!!), easily sunburned and german potato salad and beer at all family functions.. yup! I'm German!

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Anyway.. Lutheran, openning gifts on Christmas eve (so much better than openning them early in the morning... that's for sleeping!!!), easily sunburned and german potato salad and beer at all family functions.. yup! I'm German!
I live in an area that is heavily populated by people of strong German ancestry. Most are not Lutheran, though. About 90% or more of them are Catholic, and it's not just social functions that include beer. It's a food group for them.;) Oh, and at just about every Christmas party you can find things like Divinity candy and pfeffernuse (msp). Oh, and beer, of course.:D

[Michael the Iconographer]

Duchess, Germans tend to be divided between Lutheran and Catholic. The division comes from the wars of the reformation which occured in Germany in the 1600s. The princes of the various German states chose who they wanted to side with, the Catholic Habsburgs in Austria or the Lutheran House of Hohenzollern in Prussia. Thus the Northern Germans and some of the Eastern Germans tend to be Lutheran and the Southern Germans and Austrians (Austria means in German "The German Southern Kingdom) tend to be Catholic.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Duchess, Germans tend to be divided between Lutheran and Catholic. The division comes from the wars of the reformation which occured in Germany in the 1600s. The princes of the various German states chose who they wanted to side with, the Catholic Habsburgs in Austria or the Lutheran House of Hohenzollern in Prussia. Thus the Northern Germans and some of the Eastern Germans tend to be Lutheran and the Southern Germans and Austrians (Austria means in German "The German Southern Kingdom) tend to be Catholic.
Thanks, Michael.:) I've seen adds in the paper for "low German" and "high German" social groups. I thought maybe it had something to do with different language dialects, but was never sure. Anyway.....this is totally off topic! Sorry, all.

[Xpycoctomos]

Thanks, Michael.:) I've seen adds in the paper for "low German" and "high German" social groups. I thought maybe it had something to do with different language dialects, but was never sure. Anyway.....this is totally off topic! Sorry, all.

Actually, they are both region and dialect based. High German is what they speak in Northern Germany (the accent is mostly what differs) and TV personalities (like News anchors) while low German is more that southen (and central???) part of Germany. The former, ffor example, pronounces their "ch"s like the gutteral spitting up sound we tend to associate with German (although not as harsh as we make it to be in our characatures) and the lower German turns some of those "ch"s into more of a "sh" sound. That's aobut the extent to which I know all of this. Sorry anyone if I messed up the details... but that's the gist.

[Alexis OCA]

Two things:

My paternal side were Lutherans who came from Osterholzscharmbeck (just north of Bremen) and settled in Connecticut and then Long Island.

Anyone from the Pittsburgh area remember Iron City Beer or Stoneys? Are they still even brewed?

[Rilian]

Actually, they are both region and dialect based. High German is what they speak in Northern Germany (the accent is mostly what differs) and TV personalities (like News anchors) while low German is more that southen (and central???) part of Germany. The former, ffor example, pronounces their "ch"s like the gutteral spitting up sound we tend to associate with German (although not as harsh as we make it to be in our characatures) and the lower German turns some of those "ch"s into more of a "sh" sound. That's aobut the extent to which I know all of this. Sorry anyone if I messed up the details... but that's the gist.

It's actually a good deal more confusing than this since there are so many German dialects. Hochdeutsch (high) and Plattdeutsch (low) are actually from the same part of the Germanic linguistic family. We think of Hochdeutsch as "German" because it became the language the Prussians standardized on when Germany became a unified country. A fairly recent event in the grand scheme of things.

Plattdeutsch was the language of the Hanseatic League and it is related to Dutch (and therefore Afrikaans) and Saxon German.

It gets really confusing because the southern dialects are actually called Upper German. My Mom's family spoke something called Schweizerdeutsch (an Upper German or Allemanic dialect) because they were from the German speaking part of Switzerland. It is basically incomprehensible to somebody who speaks Hochdeutsch.

Now, why I remember all of this but regularly forget birthdays and anniversaries I don't know. I'm sure my wife would like to have an answer to that question though...

[greg, Iron City still exists]

[Dominus Fidelis]

Does the Orthodox Church teach that the (Roman) Catholic Church has Apostolic Succession?
Do the Orthodox believe they have valid sacraments (particularly the eucharist) as the Catholic Church teaches of the Orthodox?

Is there is an issue if someone in the Orthodox Church believes the opposite (being too extreme or too liberal, whichever the answer is)?

This Eastern Orthodox priest says we Catholics don't even worship the God of Abraham...

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

[Michael the Iconographer]

Thanks, Michael.:) I've seen adds in the paper for "low German" and "high German" social groups. I thought maybe it had something to do with different language dialects, but was never sure. Anyway.....this is totally off topic! Sorry, all.

"High German" is standardized German. IIRC High German is basically Saxon German. "Low German" is a referrence to dialect German. There are hundreds of German dialects. Dialects are based on different pronunciations of vowels as well as different and often archaic German words which are not used in high german. You must remember that what is now Germany was once about 300 small states each with it's own Royalty. Take Prussia. I have maps that show how Prussia started out as a tiny little principality that just surrounded the areas arround Berlin, and then by military conquest grew to engulf most of northern Germany. But, I really don't want to bore everyone with my discussion of the peculiarities of German history.

[Michael the Iconographer]

My Mom's family spoke something called Schweizerdeutsch (an Upper German or Allemanic dialect) because they were from the German speaking part of Switzerland.

Schweizerdeutsch is horrible sounding to someone who speaks High German. The Swiss totally mess up all of the vowels and it just sounds like a bunch of incoherent German mumble! (no offense meant) :D

[stillerfan]

Two things:

My paternal side were Lutherans who came from Osterholzscharmbeck (just north of Bremen) and settled in Connecticut and then Long Island.

Anyone from the Pittsburgh area remember Iron City Beer or Stoneys? Are they still even brewed?

Iron City Beer is still brewed....not too sure about Stoneys..... i have become a recent Yuengling convert myself... :clap: :cool: ^_^

[Michael the Iconographer]

And now for my all time favorite Bavarian German word! Rundumilie! It is a contraction of the phrase "rund und herrum" which means "round about" and is basically used to mean a "U-Turn"!

RUNDUMILIE!

[Rilian]

This Eastern Orthodox priest says we Catholics don't even worship the God of Abraham...

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

"This" Orthodox priest is a member of a schismatic group in communion with no other Orthodox churches. They believe, if I recall correctly, that all other churches (Orthodox or otherwise) are devoid of grace. This would be like me posting an opionion of one of the Transalpine Redemptorists in OBOB and saying "see, here's what the Catholics are saying".

[Matrona]

"This" Orthodox priest is a member of a schismatic group in communion with no other Orthodox churches. They believe, if I recall correctly, that all other churches (Orthodox or otherwise) are devoid of grace. This would be like me posting an opionion of one of the Transalpine Redemptorists in OBOB and saying "see, here's what the Catholics are saying".

Yes, but IIRC, this sect is also linked to River of Fire (http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm) which is highly favored.

An Orthodox who believes what D0F posted wouldn't be condemned for heresy, but would probably have a long talk with his/her spiritual father about prelest. Yes, I do know people who think that non-Orthodox, including RC's, worship a different God. I am not one of them. I've been branded one of them, but I'm not. I think it is a nasty sin to pretend you know where the Holy Spirit can't/won't go. But opinions do differ among us, and I think that needs to be said here.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Yes, but IIRC, this sect is also linked to River of Fire (http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm) which is highly favored.

An Orthodox who believes what D0F posted wouldn't be condemned for heresy, but would probably have a long talk with his/her spiritual father about prelest. Yes, I do know people who think that non-Orthodox, including RC's, worship a different God. I am not one of them. I've been branded one of them, but I'm not. I think it is a nasty sin to pretend you know where the Holy Spirit can't/won't go. But opinions do differ among us, and I think that needs to be said here.

You are correct in saying opinions do differ, but for DOF to pick out one Orthodox priest who isn't even completely mainline Orthodox and say "look what he says" would be the equivalent of me picking out a Sede Vacantist or LeFeubvrite Catholic and say "look what this priest teaches." It just isn't being honest or truthful.

[Emmanuel-A]

This thread is interesting, because as a confirmed roman catholic about to be accepted in the Church, I heard so many different things about how I should look retrospectively at the sacraments I received in the RCC.

One of the priests of my parish told me that he did not even consider confirmed RC "candidates" as cathecumens and that chrismating them again would be a superstitious practice and that's why since Peter the Great, the Russian Church (Moscow Patriarchate) has accepted confirmed RC mostly through simple profession of faith, because it considered that RCC kept apostolic succession.

Another one told me that despite the common practice of his jurisdiction, he chrismated confirmed RC, and it seems that's the common practice in a lot of jurisdictions.

A guy I know who was a confirmed RC and who attends a Serbian parish got baptized last january.

Some friends that traveled to mount Athos told me that they were not permitted to commune since they were accepted by economy and that I should try to be accepted in a conservative way, otherwise I could not be given communion in some conservative or ethnic parishes.

My spiritual father told me that he would accept me through profession of faith, but that he would not refuse to chrism me if I insisted. The thing is that since most of the converts of my parish were accpeted through profession of faith, I don't want them to think that I claim to be more orthodox than them if I ask for chrismation.

What would you do if you were in my position ?

Emmanuel

[Matrona]

My spiritual father told me that he would accept me through profession of faith, but that he would not refuse to chrism me if I insisted. The thing is that since most of the converts of my parish were accpeted through profession of faith, I don't want them to think that I claim to be more orthodox than them if I ask for chrismation.

What would you do if you were in my position ?

If I were you, I would request chrismation. I think it would be better to be chrismated twice by accident, rather than risk not receiving that grace at all.

[Alexis OCA]

This thread is interesting, because as a confirmed roman catholic about to be accepted in the Church, I heard so many different things about how I should look retrospectively at the sacraments I received in the RCC.

One of the priests of my parish told me that he did not even consider confirmed RC "candidates" as cathecumens and that chrismating them again would be a superstitious practice and that's why since Peter the Great, the Russian Church (Moscow Patriarchate) has accepted confirmed RC mostly through simple profession of faith, because it considered that RCC kept apostolic succession.

Another one told me that despite the common practice of his jurisdiction, he chrismated confirmed RC, and it seems that's the common practice in a lot of jurisdictions.

A guy I know who was a confirmed RC and who attends a Serbian parish got baptized last january.

Some friends that traveled to mount Athos told me that they were not permitted to commune since they were accepted by economy and that I should try to be accepted in a conservative way, otherwise I could not be given communion in some conservative or ethnic parishes.

My spiritual father told me that he would accept me through profession of faith, but that he would not refuse to chrism me if I insisted. The thing is that since most of the converts of my parish were accpeted through profession of faith, I don't want them to think that I claim to be more orthodox than them if I ask for chrismation.

What would you do if you were in my position ?

Emmanuel


You raised some great points, as did Matrona. My priest is leaning toward confession and a profession of faith only. Something we are currently discussing.

[Rilian]

Emmanuel, I would probably ask for Chrismation as well. However, I would trust that God and your priest will do what is correct and in your best interest. You'll be Orthodox either way.

I was baptized as an adult in a heterodox church. It has been decided for various reasons that I will come in through the whole process though. Baptism, Chrismation and a full lifetime Confession.

[Dominus Fidelis]

You are correct in saying opinions do differ, but for DOF to pick out one Orthodox priest who isn't even completely mainline Orthodox and say "look what he says" would be the equivalent of me picking out a Sede Vacantist or LeFeubvrite Catholic and say "look what this priest teaches." It just isn't being honest or truthful.

Excuse me, but I didn't pick out anything. I did a simple Google search and found that as my first hit. How am I supposed to know if this person is not really Eastern Orthodox?

Thanks for assuming I am dishonest. I'm sorry for even coming in your forum again. Goodbye.

[Oblio]

Some friends that traveled to mount Athos told me that they were not permitted to commune since they were accepted by economy and that I should try to be accepted in a conservative way,


Where on Athos ?
Esphigmenou ?

[Emmanuel-A]

Where on Athos ?
Esphigmenou ?

I don't know. I'll ask.

[Wiffey]

FWIW, I see a big difference between someone who is a faithful Catholic and who believes in Tradition and the Sacraments and the Real Presence and who honors the Theotokos and understands the Communion of the Saints, and Protestants who reject all of the aforementioned in favor of Sola Scriptura and a "Me and Jesus" outlook.[Do I think Protestants still love God? Yes, I do. And God loves them, too. But I see a wide gulf between our belief systems, so I do think that we are spiritually closer to Catholicism (traditional, old-school Catholicism) than we are to (example) Pentecostals.]

The average layperson (both East & West) was not involved in the politics of the Schism. The Schism occurred, there was a geological divide between East & West, but laypeople just continued to worship in their usual ways and continued to serve Christ to the best of their abilities. True, we've drifted apart on a few things over the centuries. But to this day, if you ask the average faithful layperson (both Orthodox and Catholic) to tell you what defines Christianity for each of them, you will get nearly identical answers. So I do feel there is a closeness there.

I also believe that God did not arbitrarily withdraw His grace from either the East or the West (depending on your viewpoint) following the Schism. I think that our Lord is bigger than earthly schisms. His understanding and mercy are infinite. This may be presumptuous, but I can't fathom Him looking at Mother Teresa and saying, "Oops, you were born into a Catholic family and served me while understanding your faith from a RC perspective. You weren't Orthodox, so, I'm sorry but no sainthood for you. And no sainthood for anybody whose bad luck it was to be born in a non-Orthodox country, no matter how many poor and dying people they tended or if they were martyred for my sake. No soup for you!"

Nobody owns a copyright on the Holy Spirit.

[MariaRegina]

...
Weather that "validates" (so juridical in nature) sacraments or not... the OC has NO place in judging this at all. It would be silly and out of place to do so.
...

John

John, I love your typo.

Do you remember reading in John Whelton's book about that bolt of lightening that struck the dome of St. Peter's in the Vatican when the Roman Catholic Dogma of Papal infalibility was declared. Those loyal to papal powers took that weather phenomenon as a Divine sign of approval. Weather validating .... indeed? :D

[MariaRegina]

Actually, they are both region and dialect based. High German is what they speak in Northern Germany (the accent is mostly what differs) and TV personalities (like News anchors) while low German is more that southen (and central???) part of Germany. The former, ffor example, pronounces their "ch"s like the gutteral spitting up sound we tend to associate with German (although not as harsh as we make it to be in our characatures) and the lower German turns some of those "ch"s into more of a "sh" sound. That's aobut the extent to which I know all of this. Sorry anyone if I messed up the details... but that's the gist.

If you are interested in knowing more about High German and Low German, here is an excellent college textbook:

An Introduction to Sociolinguistics, Fourth Edition, by Ronald Wardhaugh, Blackwell Publishing, 2002.

The High German is the prestige language that is spoken by the upper classes, news anchors, politicians, and taught in the classrooms to educate children on the proper way to speak, and yes, it is spoken in the uplands. The Low German is the coastal and lowland dialect. People are known to code-switch between the two when they want to assert authority. For example a mom may use High German when correcting her children, but teens may speak Low German as a sign of solidarity.

Enough on linguistics, my favorite topic.

[isshinwhat]

It is my most sincere wish that one day such discussions of congratulations from one side, and hurt on another, will not be necessary. I pray for reunion from the depths of my soul, and trust that those selflessly seeking God will hear him when He calls, and find Him at the end of their journey. May the good Lord bless you, Douglas, and may His desires be yours.

Your brother in Christ,

Neal

[Irish Melkite]

Anyone from the Pittsburgh area remember Iron City Beer or Stoneys? Are they still even brewed?

Greg,

They're both still brewing. See Stoney's (http://www.stoneysbeer.com/) and Iron City (http://www.pittsburghbrewingco.com/).

Do you, or anyone else from PA, by chance, remember a soft drink back in the 70s called 4%? It was clear and came in green glass bottles with red and white painted labels. If so, any idea what the 4% represented?

Many years,

Neil

[Rilian]

I would guess it's the alcohol content, like the infamous 3-2.

[ProCommunioneFacior]

It is my most sincere wish that one day such discussions of congratulations from one side, and hurt on another, will not be necessary. I pray for reunion from the depths of my soul, and trust that those selflessly seeking God will hear him when He calls, and find Him at the end of their journey. May the good Lord bless you, Douglas, and may His desires be yours.

Your brother in Christ,

Neal

:amen:

[Xpycoctomos]

Aria.. if you loved that typo, just read all my other posts... I can't believe some of my typos! I'm too impatient/lazy to proofread lol

John

[Alexis OCA]

Greg,

They're both still brewing. See Stoney's (http://www.stoneysbeer.com/) and Iron City (http://www.pittsburghbrewingco.com/).

Do you, or anyone else from PA, by chance, remember a soft drink back in the 70s called 4%? It was clear and came in green glass bottles with red and white painted labels. If so, any idea what the 4% represented?

Many years,

Neil

I spent every summer from 1960 to 1978 with my grandparents in SW PA. I don't recall 4% but I do remember a vanilla cream soda that was colored BLUE!