An evangelical Protestant's questions

[Simon_Templar]

I was raised as an evangelical charismatic protestant. However, I was not raised in a specific denomination or the doctrinal baggage that goes with that. I was taught to simply read scripture and let it say what it says. As a result I find now that many of my beliefs are much closer to Orthodoxy than they are to the rest of the protestant church (except maybe traditional anglican).

I accept most theological and doctrinal points of the Orthodox church but I disagree with some of the practices of the orthodox worship.

For example, I understand the doctrines behind reverence for the saints and icons, and I accept the doctrines, but it seems that the practice goes a bit far in alot of cases, and crosses the line from reverence and comes close to worship.

Also, I don't completely deny liturgical worship, I think it is necessary, but I also believe that the freedom and personal emotional response of a lively song/praise service is necessary. I must point out here that what I'm talking about is not the grossly abused emotional response common in the charismatic movement. I fully recognize that its not about the person getting an emotional experience, but I honestly believe that God desires us to respond in a personal emotional way, balanced with strict adherence to truth, reverence, and the guidelines established by paul in scripture. I can't stress enough that I fully realize the gross errors and abuses present within most of the charismatic worship, and have no desire to indulge them. But I also believe that God raised me through the tradition he did for a reason, and thus far he has not allowed me to give up the good things I have received through it.

My basic question then is, will the orthodox church accept such a view as worthy of communion and unity? From what I've seen in my research thus far the Orthodox church seems more likely to exclude such a view, but I'd like to get your guy's input, especially if there happens to be any priests present.

My thanks

[vanshan]

I think it is necessary, but I also believe that the freedom and personal emotional response of a lively song/praise service is necessary. I must point out here that what I'm talking about is not the grossly abused emotional response common in the charismatic movement. I fully recognize that its not about the person getting an emotional experience, but I honestly believe that God desires us to respond in a personal emotional way, balanced with strict adherence to truth, reverence, and the guidelines established by paul in scripture.


Greetings, Simon!

Your questions are very welcome here. I myself am a former charismatic, and therefore I think I can relate to some of what you're feeling. I converted to Orthodoxy about 10 years ago, after having attended ORU for a couple years. I then transfered to another university, finding it hard to endure manditory chapel services and a spiritual climate so different from what I was hungering for.

I agree full-heartedly that emotional responses are a valuable comfort for us as we hold fast to the faith that has been passed down from Christ. The question is are we experiencing emotions that we have contrived through carefully orchestrated worship services or are they emotions that naturally spring forth from our hearts based on a real encounter with God? That's an open question that I cannot answer for anyone else. I began to believe more of the former was true in my case.

I can honestly say that I have never felt the deep joy and spiritual comfort that I have felt in Orthodoxy. I have also felt deep sorrow and saddness, which is tempered by an inner warmness, which is hard to describe, but it's almost like years of icy indifference and sin melts at times. I still have very far to go, but I have no question that what I feel now is genuine, rather than the flash fires of emotion I felt in the charismatic movement.

Simon, you will have to face this most important question, which I had to face, "Do I want to practice a faith I and others have created, or do I want to humbly submit to the faith established by Christ, whatever that may be?" That's a scary decision, but it's essential to embracing Orthodoxy and not being led into other heterodox errors, such as trying to create a new group which takes the best of both--as has been done. I read the Didache and other early writings, which help us see what was being done from the beginning, and clearly it's essential to be in communion with Christ, through His holy Church. From our earliest records, including the Bible, we see the Church continued in the same type of liturgical worship which was present in Jewish temple worship, albeit now complete, or perfected, in Christ. Orthodox worship will not give you the immediate flowing emotions of evangelicalism, but through submitting your will to God and making the sacrifice of praise in the Church Christ established will bring you joy, and challenge you at times, which can produce spiritual fruit.

I hope I haven't moved away from your question too much. Forgive me, I'm given to rambling and often miss the mark, but if you have any questions we will certianly try to address them, or refer you to good information.

Basil

[Rilian]

Welcome to TAW Simon_Templar. This (http://www.geocities.com/jej89/orthodoxlinks.html) page might have some useful info for you. There's a section called "Journeys to Orthodoxy" which gives the background of converts from a number of different perspectives.

[prodromos]

For example, I understand the doctrines behind reverence for the saints and icons, and I accept the doctrines, but it seems that the practice goes a bit far in alot of cases, and crosses the line from reverence and comes close to worship.Keep in mind that to us the saints are very much alive though they are no longer with us bodily. Our veneration of the saints through their icons is no different to how it would be if they were here in the flesh. We would bow to them because they have become true icons of Christ and also out of great respect for the victory they have won over the same struggles we have. We kiss them because we love them and especially because they love us, and we ask their intercessions because the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
Also, I don't completely deny liturgical worship, I think it is necessary, but I also believe that the freedom and personal emotional response of a lively song/praise service is necessary. I must point out here that what I'm talking about is not the grossly abused emotional response common in the charismatic movement. I fully recognize that its not about the person getting an emotional experience, but I honestly believe that God desires us to respond in a personal emotional way, balanced with strict adherence to truth, reverence, and the guidelines established by paul in scripture.Our liturgical worship is directly descended from Jewish liturgical worship, the structure of which was given to the Jews by God. A "lively song/praise service" seems more akin to the giddy passion felt by two people at the beginning of a love affair, not the deep respectful love expressed after years of struggle together in marriage. Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, but I've experienced both over many years and the kind of service you describe does not sound inclined to instruct people of their need for repentance and it just seems downright inappropriate in the court of our Great King and High Priest. I've lost count of how often we ask God for His mercy during the Divine Liturgy, but it has to be one of the most common phrases spoken or chanted.

John

[Michael the Iconographer]

Simon, I am working on an essay right now which is devoted to the subject of how Icons are a "Dynamic Letter of Love" which should further shed some light on why we give such reverence to Icons. If you will be patient with me I will post this essay once completed (in less than a week). Let us remember that when love is shown to a saint in the end we are actually reverencing the saints witness to Christ in their life. Thus all reverence in the end is directed at God!

[vanshan]

I think this (www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/index.aspx) is a good link for inquirers also. I would encourage you to find an English-speaking parish in your area and attend a service sometime.

Basil

[The Virginian]

I was raised as an evangelical charismatic protestant. However, I was not raised in a specific denomination or the doctrinal baggage that goes with that. I was taught to simply read scripture and let it say what it says. As a result I find now that many of my beliefs are much closer to Orthodoxy than they are to the rest of the protestant church (except maybe traditional anglican).

I accept most theological and doctrinal points of the Orthodox church but I disagree with some of the practices of the orthodox worship.

For example, I understand the doctrines behind reverence for the saints and icons, and I accept the doctrines, but it seems that the practice goes a bit far in alot of cases, and crosses the line from reverence and comes close to worship.

Also, I don't completely deny liturgical worship, I think it is necessary, but I also believe that the freedom and personal emotional response of a lively song/praise service is necessary. I must point out here that what I'm talking about is not the grossly abused emotional response common in the charismatic movement. I fully recognize that its not about the person getting an emotional experience, but I honestly believe that God desires us to respond in a personal emotional way, balanced with strict adherence to truth, reverence, and the guidelines established by paul in scripture. I can't stress enough that I fully realize the gross errors and abuses present within most of the charismatic worship, and have no desire to indulge them. But I also believe that God raised me through the tradition he did for a reason, and thus far he has not allowed me to give up the good things I have received through it.

My basic question then is, will the orthodox church accept such a view as worthy of communion and unity? From what I've seen in my research thus far the Orthodox church seems more likely to exclude such a view, but I'd like to get your guy's input, especially if there happens to be any priests present.

My thanks

Now i remember why your name is so familiaR; It reminds me of a character on an old T.V. spy show. But to your question i'll use two personal examples.

1). I stood with my eyes closed; at the chanters stand, while a lady sang "O Lord I Have Cried" during Orthros. I seemed as though I was in a cathedral, listening to a woman pour out the grievances of her soul unto God. It was a blessed experience for me.

2). It was during Holy Week Services (Maunday Thursday) that the Western Rite parish I attend, sang The Reproaches. Several stanzas were sung befroe what was being sung, went from my mind into my heart. Jesus is speaking to you recounting all the things which He has done for you, in order for you to successfully live the Christian life. He sees that you're not, and so says, "Testify against Me." I began to weep, and was still doing so when the Cross was brought out for us to reverence. I could not stand knowingmy shame for not being the Christian I should. I could only kneel and reach up to kiss the Cross of my Lord.

I too came to Holy Orthodoxy from a Charismatic background. And while there exists a lot of freedom to be as emotional as you please, I'm reminded of what the Spirit of God taught me as I sat in a Southern Baptist congregation. I do not attend Church services to "get something" out of the event. I'm there for one reason; one specific reason only, and that is to worship, to kiss towards the Lord Jesus Christ.
It's to easy; as you're so well aware, to become fooled by a heightened emotional response. Therefore the Church in her wisdom, while not forbidding emotional responses, has taught, and still teaches us to do as Jesus taught the Samaritan woman, "...worship in spirit and truth....", an example which if we follow, we cannot go wrong.


Can someone please PM me on how to quote only part of an earlier post, so as to not weary people! I thank you in advance.



"...Seek first His kingdom and His righteousness
and all these things will be added unto you..."

[Theophorus]

Part of becoming Orthodox is letting go of one's ego. One of the big things that drew me the Church was the huimility I saw all around me. Not just in the attitudes of the clergy and members but also in the form or "praxis" of the religion, including venerating icons, prostrations, etc.
When "running the race" of your life remember this virtue and run to it, in yourself and in others and you will be greatly blessed. The devil is able to copy, or mimick all of the other virtues of patience, kindness, generosity, compassion, even love; but humility is the one virtue that is alien to him and that he cannot manifest.

[countrymouse33ad]

Welcome to TAW, Simon. :)

Before you completely make up your mind about Orthodox liturgical worship I would suggest visiting a service at a parish that has services in English. (Note that the EOC does not include Coptic or other non-Chalcedonian sects.) Check oca.org and antiochian.org for a list of parishes first; if you don't find one near you, check goarch.org (the Greek jurisdiction website. Some of the Greek churches still have services in Greek.) It's my theory that experiencing Orthodox worship a few times will probably melt away your misgivings about our worship being overly rigid or giving you too little opportunity for a genuine emotional response.

[countrymouse33ad]

By the way, you can listen to some service music at Ancient Faith Radio online:

http://www.ancientfaithradio.com/

[gzt]

Since nobody has addressed it yet, I'm going to comment about what you said regarding "worthy of communion and unity". No person is worthy of the precious and life-giving body and blood of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ and no person can expect to come to Him without being changed. If you desire communion and union with the Church, I suggest you talk to an Orthodox priest about being received into communion with the Church. Communion and union is not about right opinions and attitudes or being worthy, for none is worthy of the grace of God, it is about partaking of the body and blood of Christ within the Body of Christ. What you have asked about is a list of concerns and questions about the true worship of God, and concerns and questions are not enough to keep you away from the faith of the apostles given to us by God if you desire it.

As for the veneration of icons, this may simply be a cultural difference you are not used to. We do nothing for an icon of a saint that we wouldn't do for a great king or champion. We bow before icons and kiss them on the hand, but we bow before our priests and kiss them on the hand and in days of yore did so to kings, we even prostrate before each other, each one of us before the other with no regard for rank, on Forgiveness Sunday. So bowing and kissing is nothing beyond the reverence we give each other, so there's no problem with doing so before icons. So I'm not sure where you claim we cross over the line into worship. It is a danger we must watch out for, but usually such concerns are only cultural aversions. Perhaps you should ask somebody who has just venerated an icon whether they just revered the icon itself as if it were God. It's a question to keep in mind.

As for the rest: Orthodoxy should be the fulfillment of your faith, it is not contrary to any good thing or truth from God. You would not be abandoning the truth you had learned but finding its fulfillment in the Church. There is a place for free emotional response in Orthodox worship, it is just harder to see among those who are not yet used to it. Orthodoxy is a religion for the whole man, including the heart. Look for St. Symeon the New Theologian talking about the gift of tears...

[Alexis OCA]

By the way, you can listen to some service music at Ancient Faith Radio online:

http://www.ancientfaithradio.com/

Give that a big :thumbsup: . I'm never online without it.

[Julio]

Hello, and welcome to TAW! :wave: One quick question for you, Simon: did you attend Olivet Nazarene University? Some I know there has this very screenname elsewhere.

[Simon_Templar]

So much to respond to :) Thank you all for your replies...


several people commented about what I refrenced as the emotional response in a lively song service and made refrence to the wild emotionalism which is common, even the rule in charismatic worship. I can't stress enough how aware of this problem I am. I, along with one of my brothers, and my father (who was the pastor) were essentially driven out of our church recently and this was one of the major issues. We strongly opposed disorderly actions and over the top emotional displays during the service. Along with that we stood firmly on women's roles in the church. The truth is that such emotionalism is entirely self centered and for such people their worship is not about God its about self indulgence and self fulfillment.
This is not what I'm talking about. One fellow replied with a comment about the emotional response reminding him of the beginning of a love afair as opposed to the deeper love that comes after. I am not offended by this.. infact its exactly what God has been leading me too in his word. He has been convicting me that he desires both aspects from us. The response he desires from us is both the deep mature love, and also the passionate emotional response (not rank self centered emotionalism). From the very beginning He has set up the relationship of man and wife as an example of what he desires from us, and also this is much of the point of the song of solomon.

Many of you pointed out that the liturgical worship is a continuation of the jewish temple worship etc. I am aware of this, however there is another side to jewish worship as well. Most famously its reflected in David, but also in the singers and various musical instrament players that God directed to take apart in numerous incidents in the OT. I don't want to deny one side in favor of the other.

Also on the issue of being worthy of communion and unity, I recognize and agree that no one is worthy of the body and blood of Jesus Christ. This is why I tried to phrase it as would this view point be deemed worthy.. what I was trying to get at, is would this belief be deemed too heterodox to be acceptable. Perhaps I phrased it poorly.


On the veneration of saints and icons...
Its very possible that the difference is mostly cultural. I do understand and accept the teaching that the saints are not seperated from us but are still part of the body and our fellowship. Even if a saint or an apostle were standing before me I wouldn't prostrate myself before him, not out of pride in myself but simply because I deem such to be an act of worship, not due to any man save our Lord. It may seem like a fine line or even an unreasonable distinction but I think its acceptable to show respect by bowing the head, or kneeling, but prostration I believe is an act of worship. Even in scripture, angels forbade people to prostrate before them, the only reason for this would seem to be that they saw it as worship, and thus would not accept it.

I've probably forgotten some things I wanted to respond to but the last thing I can remember is from Julio,
No I did not attend olivet nazarene university.. However, I was at several points in time a regular poster on olivet nazarene's BBS "the jungle". Perhaps that is where you know the name from. What was your nick on the Jungle?

I'm not trying to be argumentative in my responses, or engender debate, I just wanted to explain myself better so you guys can better understand my position. Thanks for the responses so far, you've all been helpful :)

[elizabethevangeline]

I think it might be important to make the distinction between purposes of liturgical worship and personal worship. The Liturgy is for the whole Body, all together, unifying those participating in worship. It's purpose is different than the personal worship of the individual, done in private. There is a time, place, need for both.

Yet, I must say I've been shocked by how I have been moved to emotional responsiveness to God during the Litury. Before, I always felt I had to somehow get God to visit me. Now, it's more...I go into God's presence.

[Philip]

It may seem like a fine line or even an unreasonable distinction but I think its acceptable to show respect by bowing the head, or kneeling, but prostration I believe is an act of worship.


It is a matter of perception. Orthodoxy does not demand that one prostrate oneself before an icon. We concider it acceptable to venerate them. I know Orthodox who do not kiss icons. Rather they touch their forehead to them. How we show respect is a personal matter, and we do not bother ourselves with how others show their respect to the Saints.

There is a book, "Praying with Icons" by Jim Forest, that might be useful to you.

[Oblio]

Simon,

You might take a look at this study on Bowing and Veneration in the Biblical context of Semitic cultures and Language (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/icon_bowing.aspx)

[Rilian]

Simon,

You might take a look at this study on Bowing and Veneration in the Biblical context of Semitic cultures and Language (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/icon_bowing.aspx)

It's actually not even just semitic. I never really thought about this before, but we did something like a prostration when my wife and I got married. Her Mother’s family is Korean, and as part of the wedding we did a bowing ceremony to both sets of our parents. It’s a traditional way of showing respect and reverence. In the ceremony we did what you would call a full prostration (actually several of them) if you saw somebody doing the same thing in an Orthodox church. We certainly weren’t worshipping our parents as Gods.

It’s probably the same idea in church, we regard the saints as living and praying for us at the throne of God. It makes sense to show them our honor, reverence and love in the same manner as if they were standing in front of us, which of course the icon symbolizes. Just as an aside, the only time I ever see people doing full prostrations is during the presanctified liturgy and towards the altar itself. Otherwise people usually do metanoias or small bows when approaching an icon.

[Maximus]

You have gotten a lot of good advice here, Simon.

With regard to the veneration of saints and icons, I would suggest that you do nothing that would violate the present state of your conscience. Just ask God to show you the truth in this area. Talk to Him and tell Him how you feel. He will show you the right way.

It struck me one day that even the names J-E-S-U-S and G-O-D are icons. Those collections of letters are not the persons themselves. They are merely symbols by and through which we worship, learn about, and communicate with and about the Lord. Yet we venerate them, and at the Name of Jesus every knee will bow (Rom. 14:11).

I don't know if that is helpful to you. It was for me.

[Mary of Bethany]

With regard to the veneration of saints and icons, I would suggest that you do nothing that would violate the present state of your conscience. Just ask God to show you the truth in this area. Talk to Him and tell Him how you feel. He will show you the right way.

Excellent advice!

[gzt]

Many of you pointed out that the liturgical worship is a continuation of the jewish temple worship etc. I am aware of this, however there is another side to jewish worship as well. Most famously its reflected in David, but also in the singers and various musical instrament players that God directed to take apart in numerous incidents in the OT. I don't want to deny one side in favor of the other.
Not everything we do is liturgical worship. I mean, good grief, what horror it would be if all we ever did in our lives was pray the Hours. I have other things to do in life than chant, there's more joy in the world than that, surely. I don't think David's dancing is the best comparison you could draw [a common mistake, but I won't get into that, but in the end it's an example of how not to relate to God], but I see nothing wrong with people dancing and shouting praises to God outside the liturgical worship of the Church. I think this is really a nonissue, we're not just somber funny-hat-wearing psalm-chanting icon-kissers, we eat drink and sing as well, there is great light and life and freedom in Orthodoxy. When we fast, we fast pretty hard, when we rejoice, we rejoice hard. We only hold the wedding itself in the temple, but don't let that fool you into thinking Orthodox marriage is only about singing psalms and getting crowns...

As for prostration, that's a fine opinion to have, but I don't think Scripture can back that up. Somebody already pointed to a discussion of it. If it does, okay, perhaps it meant that in that culture and time, but we prostrate each one of us before the other on Forgiveness Sunday, and we clearly do not assign the significance of worship due only to God in those many prostrations and I think it absurd to claim that, even in that context, our gesture is one fit only for God. You might think differently. Note that we too say when prostration is not appropriate. If you walk up to a priest or bishop and prostrate yourself out of respect, expect to be rebuked [unless they're afraid of hurting your feelings or something].

Anyways, I think the concerns you have are really concerns we all share and aren't the sort of thing that would keep one out of the Church. They're differences in degree and not extent, and, if they cannot be overcome, at least they can be seeds for further dialogue.

cheers,
gzt

[Eusebios]

ST (The Saint if I recall correctly :) )
Hello and welcome to TAW.
I just wanted to chime in with regard to the veracity of a good praise song and the positive emotion that accompanies it.
I am a music nut, though I must admit that since converting to Orthodoxy in 1991, the music of the Church has become for me most satisfying, I still love to sing out in praise to God via mediums other than liturgical music. (ie. the new U2 disc!). This is well and good for me in my personal worship and praise. It just doesn't fit in with the worship of the Church over the course of the centuries, at least not in terms of corporate worship.
the two serve different purposes, fulfill different roles, that's all.
As others have mentioned, I highly recommend that you avail yourself to an Orthodox service. Many parishes are now serving the pre-sanctified Divine Liturgy on Wed. and/or Fri. nights. It is a beautiful service, guarunteed to move you.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:

[Aymn27]

ST (The Saint if I recall correctly :) )
Hello and welcome to TAW.
I just wanted to chime in with regard to the veracity of a good praise song and the positive emotion that accompanies it.
I am a music nut, though I must admit that since converting to Orthodoxy in 1991, the music of the Church has become for me most satisfying, I still love to sing out in praise to God via mediums other than liturgical music. (ie. the new U2 disc!). This is well and good for me in my personal worship and praise. It just doesn't fit in with the worship of the Church over the course of the centuries, at least not in terms of corporate worship.
the two serve different purposes, fulfill different roles, that's all.
As others have mentioned, I highly recommend that you avail yourself to an Orthodox service. Many parishes are now serving the pre-sanctified Divine Liturgy on Wed. and/or Fri. nights. It is a beautiful service, guarunteed to move you.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:
What is the pre-Sanctified Divine Liturgy?? Just curious...

aaron

[Mary of Bethany]

Eusebios,

I'm so glad I'm not the only one here who considers U2 to be my "worship outside of church" music! :thumbsup:

Mary

[Michael the Iconographer]

U2 is some really good stuff. The song 40 (from the CD WAR) is nothing more than the 40th Psalm put to a rock tune. The last few lines to the song "Stuck in a Moment and You Can't Get Out" really helped me through the hardest part of the divorce.

[katherine2001]

A Pre-Sanctified Liturgy is a Vespers service with the Eucharist added to the end. Someone else can probably give a better description of it. The bread and wine were consecrated the Sunday before and are held on Wedsnesday and/or Friday nights (not every parish holds them both nights). People don't have anything to eat or drink after having a light lunch around noon. The Pre-Sanctified is one of the oldest services of the Church. A lot of the Psalms are chanted during the service. They are only held during Lent to help us get through it. It is a very grueling time, and the extra services and extra communion gives us the strength to get through it.