Suicide

[CovaDaIria]

Hi, this may seem like it's a topic out of the blue. Forgive me that I haven't looked through any of the other threads. I would like to ask what the Orthodox chuch believes about suicide, and where a person's soul goes when they do commit it. I had a classmate commit suicide 9 years ago, and for some reason, I still think about it from time to time, especially on the month of her passing every year. She was Orthodox, and she came from a big, caring and loving family. She was intelligent, athletic, artistic, and extremely kind. She was also very beautiful, not only on the outside, but the inside too. No one saw it coming that she would commit suicide on her 16th birthday. We were all baffled, mixed with deepened sorrow. She overdosed using tylenol pills; to this day I am extremely confused to her actions, as she appeared normal on the outside, and was kind and caring, and didn't really show any signs of taking her life. She was an inspiration to everyone and a great role-model for her fellow classmates. I have prayed for her soul, and it seems like I'll never know why she did what she did. But basically, I want to know what the Orthodox church believes about suicide and where the soul goes when one commits suicide. Even to this day, I feel like I should have done something to see the signs, but like I said, no one expected this, not from a girl who had it all...

[CovaDaIria]

Oh no, did I post this in the wrong section? Is this supposed to be in the Ancient Orthodox section? Gosh, I'm sorry, I'm new at this.

[mikeforjesus]

All orthodox churches believe the same things I think.
The Coptic (egyptian christian) church if im correct believes that they cant go to heaven because they cant repent of this sin because they are dead. But sometimes people overdose by accident like elvis presley (he didnt know how much he took would kill him) so again if im correct Christ will have mercy on them and they will go where the saints are. But suicide is not mentioned directly in the bible so I dont know. Its going to be Gods judgment at the end and we know His ever merciful and we will agree with His judgment I believe one day.

[Yeznik]

All orthodox churches believe the same things I think.
The Coptic (egyptian christian) church if im correct believes that they cant go to heaven because they cant repent of this sin because they are dead. But sometimes people overdose by accident like elvis presley (he didnt know how much he took would kill him) so again if im correct Christ will have mercy on them and they will go where the saints are. But suicide is not mentioned directly in the bible so I dont know. Its going to be Gods judgment at the end and we know His ever merciful and we will agree with His judgment I believe one day.

Life is Gods gift, without the breath of God we are just mearly dirt. God is the ultimate Judge, but life is not created by the hands of man, only by the Grace of God.

[domi]

i don't see how god could send n e one to hell for anything. If got loves us so much and he tells us that he will forgive us no matter what and he made us in his immage then i can't see that happening. If god forgives as we d, in our immage, and we wouln't send someone to hell for comminting sucidie, or at lesat i wouldn't, and we would understand how they felt and that at a time it would be aceptabtable enough for them to loose faith, and forgive them, then why can't god? I find this a hard theroy to comprehend.

In regards to ur friend being very outgoing smart and happy i'm the same way but sometimes i get those same fealings. I dun know if i would ever act on them like besides the point of mabye cutting my arm but sometimes their personality is just a cover up for what's realy going on. I don't want n e one to know the true me and i'm sure she mabye felt the same way. I wouln't want to wory someone with my probelms.

and don't wry if u didn't see the warning sings i doubt n e one would. the good thing is that u pray for her and u love her that's relay all that matters.

[erinipassi]

Hi CovaDairia,
I wanted to discuss suicide from the Coptic Orthodox perspective, which is similar to other Orthodox Churches as Mike mentioned. Before we address the issue of suicide, I want to explore with you Human pain and suffering.

When a person experiences pain in their life, it can be all consuming and so deep that only God alone would know about it. We don’t like to show our pain and our scars because we battle with thoughts of insecurities about ourselves. God understands our pain and our suffering, because each day he carries our suffering with us, and he loves us with an all consuming Love. Imagine someone who thinks about you everyday, and loves hearing your voice every moment, and can’t get enough of being with you. Jesus is that person!!!! He is reaching out to us.

But the problem with us as human beings is, we can’t seem to trust God enough with our problems. We hold on to our pain, and at times forget to pray for healing. Healing comes from him, whether He heals us directly or through the spiritual guidance of our confessional father (the priest) or by making available to us counselling services. That is why sacrament of repentance and confession is crucial in the Orthodoxy, because through it our confessional father gives us spiritual and emotional support or helps us to get in touch with the right people if a person is experiencing severe depression. Having a confessional father means helping you stay focused on this narrow road of life with its hardship and giving you spiritual support. But sadly, many people don’t go to their confessional father as often or may not have one.

Jesus stands on the door and says, “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.” (Matt 11: 28-29). God promises us two things when we come to him with our problems, is that He will give our souls peace and healing. “Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.” (John 14: 27)

If we give up on God and say, “Lord, I don’t trust you with my problems…I don’t trust your Love that you will give me healing or a solution to my problem.” This lack of Hope and lack of trust in God is our downfall. Because we are choosing by own free will not to be with God. That is why, when someone commits suicide, it means they have taken their own life by their “own” freewill and have chosen not to have Hope or trust in God. So then how will a person go to heaven if they don’t trust in the Person who dwells in Heaven?

People came to ask Jesus about eternal life and Jesus answered them this, “Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me……..'” (Matt 7: 21-23)

These words will only seem on the outside harsh if we don’t accept the truth. The complete truth being, that God is love and merciful and also He is Justice. We often only accept half of the truth, which is God is love, but we don’t understand that if He is Love, He is also Justice. Because how can someone be loving without being “fair” to you?

That is why, the Church warns all the people that if we make our own decisions not to trust God in our problems and give up, it means we have also given up on God, and taken the matter into our own hands without wanting to be with God. That is why suicide in the Orthodox, is the same as killing a soul. In suicide, a person decides to kill their own soul. As Mike mentioned before, suicide is the only sin which a person can’t repent from because a person has pronounced death to their soul.

Now having said all that, I can truly understand your pain CovaDairia. It would only be natural for you to think about your friend often and to pray for her. If this happened to my family, I would be in so much pain too. Jesus weeps for each soul and he understands your grief and is there in the middle of your pain. He is “a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief......Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed” (Isaiah 53: 3-5).

May God comfort you in your time of sorrow and give you peace.


Blessings and love
erini

[domi]

I have a problem with ur theory,

Talking about things with god..or Jeasus whicher god u want to choose science it's all the same in the end...(sigh)...does help but praying to god and repenting to an abounda are two COMPLEATY differnt things.

When it comes down to it a Abdounda is just someone who's recived training in god and maby a little bit in social servies and although he may say he is trust worthy he is still human. I know... I messed with Abdunas before...they don't like me lol. Abduna's try to take things into their own hands and take actions that u may or may not want. In the end they r human and might not be compelty trust worhty. I'm not saying they r bad, i love my abouna...although he kinda hates me right now and thinks that i have mental issues..which i do....but they r still HUMAN. That being so u might not to worry them or talk to them about ur problems.

God is differnt. God is real but he's not psyical u can trust god god doesn't go and tell people about things god doesn't get angry god doens't have human emotions and god doesn't care what u did b cuz god still loves u. God isn't troubed by ur problems because god created u and god knows what ur going though.

the bad thing about god is that he can't help u in a psyical way. I mean he can but it might not be the help you might need.

In the end it might be better to combine god with abouna for the best posible result but it's probly harder then u make it seam.

On a sidenote one thing I remeber that Hany tells me evertime i'm suffering is that God gives everyone an equal amout of pain and he just distribies it in differnt ways according to what that one person can handle. God never gives u too much for u to deal with. I dunno why but that allways helps me.

-Domi

[CopticGirl]

Domi,


When it comes down to it a Abdounda is just someone who's recived training in god and maby a little bit in social servies and although he may say he is trust worthy he is still human.

A priest is still human, yes, but he has a closer connection to God than you or I. I mean your abouna hears confession after confession after confession, on a daily basis. He is not going to discuss yours with anyone--ever. If you cannot trust your father of confession, then I think that is a big problem.

A lot of people think that they can just repent through their prayers, but that is not enough.

Jesus gave his disciples the power to forgive or remit sins:

"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them, if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" This is from John 20:23.

You say your Abouna hates you?!?!? I find that hard to swallow. I'm sure he understands that you are still learning, and I'm sure he is happy to give you his advice and guidance.


God isn't troubed by ur problems because god created u and god knows what ur going though.



God wants us to do his will, God wants us to believe in him and display our believe in him through our actions. God knows that we are sinful by nature, and for that reason he sent his son, Jesus Christ to earth so that we can gain salvation. BUT, in order to gain that salvation, we must do the best we can to be obedient and follow what Jesus taught us. And a big part of that is repenting. Our sins will be forgiven, but in order to be forgiven we must ask for forgiveness.

So did you find a Copic Church in your area?

God Bless.

[domi]

Domi,


A priest is still human, yes, but he has a closer connection to God than you or I. I mean your abouna hears confession after confession after confession, on a daily basis. He is not going to discuss yours with anyone--ever. If you cannot trust your father of confession, then I think that is a big problem.

A lot of people think that they can just repent through their prayers, but that is not enough.

Jesus gave his disciples the power to forgive or remit sins:

"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them, if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" This is from John 20:23.

Ok...ummm...my connection with god is officaly dissed now. No affence but how could a Priest have a closer connection with god then n e one else? Just because he might know more stuff or just because he took some class on it doesn't nessarly mean that he has a closer connection with god....but ok...whatever...I didn't mean for u to take that affeivly i just needed to get that out of my system.

You say your Abouna hates you?!?!? I find that hard to swallow. I'm sure he understands that you are still learning, and I'm sure he is happy to give you his advice and guidance.

Yah, but it's not my Abouna it's Hany's abouna..and he's not very fond of me. I think i borthed him and he finds that i'm getting in his way and he told me to never talk to him again. So he kinda hates me.

God wants us to do his will, God wants us to believe in him and display our believe in him through our actions. God knows that we are sinful by nature, and for that reason he sent his son, Jesus Christ to earth so that we can gain salvation. BUT, in order to gain that salvation, we must do the best we can to be obedient and follow what Jesus taught us. And a big part of that is repenting. Our sins will be forgiven, but in order to be forgiven we must ask for forgiveness.

Yah repenting is defnialty very imporant. I agree with u there. It's better to repent themn to keep things in ur mind.

So did you find a Copic Church in your area?
Nope...:sigh:....i found a lot in brooklin and staten island but i kinda don't live n e where remotly close to brooklin or statin island. GRRRRRRRR
God Bless.

-Domi

[CopticGirl]

Yah, but it's not my Abouna it's Hany's abouna..and he's not very fond of me. I think i borthed him and he finds that i'm getting in his way and he told me to never talk to him again. So he kinda hates me.




Well I'm sorry to hear that. I don't know how you upset this priest, and it's none of my business. But, in general, if you are sincerely intested in the Coptic Church, and are asking questions in the spirit of learning, then any priest will be happy to help you.

I said that Priests have a closer connection to God because these men have devoted their lives to serving God. I mean they give up successful careers to be priests. The priests in my church were engineers and physicians and now spend all of their time serving God. They spend a lot of time studying and learning more about God. Being a priest is not just a responsibility that they fullfill a few hours on Sunday. It is a full time job. My church has services on a daily basis and these priests are constantly getting calls from the congregation every day, in which these people are looking for guidance and advice.

God Bless.

[domi]

Well I'm sorry to hear that. I don't know how you upset this priest, and it's none of my business. But, in general, if you are sincerely intested in the Coptic Church, and are asking questions in the spirit of learning, then any priest will be happy to help you.

I said that Priests have a closer connection to God because these men have devoted their lives to serving God. I mean they give up successful careers to be priests. The priests in my church were engineers and physicians and now spend all of their time serving God. They spend a lot of time studying and learning more about God. Being a priest is not just a responsibility that they fullfill a few hours on Sunday. It is a full time job. My church has services on a daily basis and these priests are constantly getting calls from the congregation every day, in which these people are looking for guidance and advice.

God Bless.

U say that like it's a bad thing. If they wanted to be prietss so bad then it's not a major sacrifice. Think about it. If u didn't want the job then i don't suspose u would take it over something else that u were doing. So In the end the only real sacrifice would be the money. But like i said it probly wouln't but that much of a sacifrice at atll cuz when ur doing something u love then the money realy isn't an issue. Like when i vonenteer at homeless shelters instead of getting a job over the summer i dun think that's a sacrifice i think that rocks my socks. It just depends on how u look at it.Although all this isn't ment to put what they r doing down, it was still very sweet of them to do what they did. it's just ment to make what u said a little less harsh.

[CopticGirl]

I didn't mean it in a harsh way. I meant that these men had complete lives prior to becoming priests. Do you know what I mean? I don't think of it is a negative thing at all, but they are giving up a lot of what their lives used to consist of to serve God. Personally, I think it says so much about these men. I mean not many people in this world can give up everything like that. I know I have enough trouble giving up stuff during lent, let alone giving up everything else! ;)

God Bless.

[erinipassi]

Hi Domi,

I don’t know for sure but I get the feeling that you have had previous bad experiences in the past with someone in authority and these traumatic experiences colour your view about priesthood. I also feel there are multiple issues you are dealing with at the same time and perhaps a new thread needs to be made to discuss those issues if you feel comfortable talking about it.

I’m going to talk about the issues that have come across during the discussion and you can tell me whether I am wrong and whether you are comfortable discussing them:



1) First thing, it sounds to me like you have had personal traumatic scars in your life, which is causing a lot of pain and I feel that you are seeking help but not finding it. The best help would be contacting a professional counsellor from the Coptic Church to discuss them with you. This can be done by contacting your Abouna and asking him whether he knows someone who is a counsellor in the Church. Counselling services from the Church has the advantage of giving you a Christian counselling which is orthodox. Someone who can discuss with you your doubts and insecurities but at the same time give you an Orthodox counselling service. If you can’t find one, I am more than happy to help you as much as I can, but I am not a professional counsellor. In our Church (Australia), Abouna sits down with the person and offers to get in touch with a psychologist from our Church with those who have experienced or experiencing traumatic scars that is causing depression.



2) The reason why its so important to find someone to help you deal with the things that are causing you depression because it sounds to me that you are hurting so much, its causing misunderstandings to happen with your Abouna. When a person is hurting, everything or anything anyone says is taken with extreme sensitivity and the person is unable to handle it. The person who is hurting, then lashes out unintentionally to those who are trying to help them, for example like Abouna, and its causes Abouna to misunderstand their action.



3) I don’t exactly know where your background is from, and whether you have a Muslim background, because it sounds like it’s not clear to you yet why Jesus is God. I could be wrong. But, if you have trouble with that, please let me know, and I will open a new thread and we can discuss why Jesus is God.

The last thing that I would like to mention is that it sounds to me that the sacrament of repentance and confession as well as sacrament of priesthood is still unclear to you, which I would like to address in this discussion. The reason why I’m explaining things to you is that it might help you understand why things are the way they are in the Coptic Orthodox. Everything has a very deep meaning and has an important purpose in the Coptic Orthodox Church. Unless we understand the meaning, it will not make sense to us.

I would like for us to look together at Genesis Chapter 20, from verse 1-18. It would be really good if you have the opportunity to read it first before you read the rest of the explanation, so that it will make sense to you.



In Genesis Chapter 20, Abraham lies and tells king Abimelech that Sara is his sister so that they don’t kill him. So Abimelech, thinking that Sara is single, takes Sara to his home. God appears to Abimelech the king and tells him that Abimelech will die because he has taken Abraham’s wife. So Abimelech tells God that he didn’t know and this is what God replied, “Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her. Now therefore, restore the man's wife; for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you shall live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours." (Genesis 20: 6-7)



Now Abimelech was directly talking to God, why did God tell Abimelech for Abraham to pray for him in order for him to live? Its because God sanctifies the sacrament of repentance and confession and makes the sacrament Holy. Abraham wasn’t perfect, he was afraid, lied and didn’t have enough faith in God. But in God eyes the service that Abraham performs is Holy and not because Abraham is perfect or without sin. An example of this, is when a person serves in the Sunday School as a Sunday School teacher. The person is not perfect, does that mean they should stop serving God just because they are not perfect? The answer is, God blesses the service for the sake of the Children and not because the person who is serving is perfect.



“So Abraham prayed to God; and God healed Abimelech, his wife, and his female servants.” (Genesis 20:17) So every time Abouna prays the absolution for you after Confession, this prayer is Holy and has the power not only to remove sins, but also to heal. A personal prayer can be said while Abouna is praying the Absolution over us, saying “Lord forgive me my sins, strengthen me and heal me”.



When you give respect to a priest, even if in your opinion he isn’t perfect, you are giving respect to God. Jesus says, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.” (Matthew 25: 40)



St Paul reminds us of this, “Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.” (Romans 13: 1-2)



Part of respecting a priest is not judging them. Because if God allowed us to be in their position, we would not have the strength to do what they do. Imagine listening to the problems of people 24 hours, 7 days a week and still attending to your personal prayers and getting up early to perform the Holy Liturgy and long prayers. At the same time attending to your husbandly and fatherly duties at home with family. It is emotionally and physically demanding. Yes they love their Job, but it’s very very stressful. A person may go do volunteer work for short periods of time, but dedicating your whole life and every hour of your life for the service of God can take a lot out of you. How many times have people insulted them every day and yet they still have to keep going. They don’t get the chance like us to take time out to heal. If someone hurt us badly, we take ages to recover. What about our priests who experience daily hurt, but still have to forgive people. Let’s not brush aside this tremendous job that they do, because if God put us in that same position, I would personally fail.



I understand that you are hurting Domi, but there are other issues deep down that’s affecting you and its affecting the way you see things in Church. I more than happy to help you as much as I can, but I cant guarantee that my help will be of any use to you.



God loves you and he reaches out to you lovingly saying, “Since you were precious in My sight, You have been honored, And I have loved you” (Isaiah 43: 4)



Blessings and love

erini

[CopticGirl]

Great post Erini.

God Bless.

[CovaDaIria]

Hello everyone,

I would just like to thank all for the replies for my post. I know I kind of posted this a long time ago, and then just disappeared, but thanks to Erini's private message that got sent to my email, I remembered to come back and check this thread. What can I say, life gets busy! I read your reply twice Erini, and took note of the details of your message. I want to thank you personally for reaching out and for caring enough to reply to my message on suicide, and my friend who was involved.

So on June 16th it will be the day my friend took her life 9 years ago. I will continue to pray for her as I have been doing throughout the years, as if it was me in her position, I would need prayers for my soul as well. The truth of the matter is, she took away a gift that God gave her - life. I think I already knew this when I posted the thread. But in my own way, I was still in denial, and looking for resolution, and perhaps not being able to forgive myself for not being able to see the signs. I played on many sports teams with her, the only thing unusual that I saw about her was that she would be laughing one minute and at other times, I saw her in her own silent solitude contemplating things in her mind, but what it was she was thinking, I didn't dare ask. I wish I did say to her, "Is there something on your mind? Is there anything you need to talk about?" Even I space out once in a while, but I didn't know, and wouldn't have guessed it was a sign of depression. I remember the phone call from one of my friends the day she commited suicide like it was yesterday. "Are you sitting down?", she asked me. "Why, what is going on?"...After the words, "....she commited sucide" everything else she said became a blur. The strange thing is, at her birthday party, which I didn't get to attend, people had stated she had told everyone she was going to take her own life. And everyone just laughed it off, like it was no big deal. "Just eat your cake, don't be silly." I don't know, but there were definately a lot of mixed emotions on the day of the funeral. Definately, we were all mourning a wonderful individual, but at the same time, some were also angry because her act caused her family so much pain. I myself, was still confused by her actions, and admit I still am to this day. I mean, for goodness sake, if it didn't bother me I guess I wouldn't be dwelling over this, even 9 years to the day. My heart is still troubled by this, but I guess, there is not much one can do. I tried to pray for her, I prayed for myself to get over this, but I think it will always be at the back of my mind. There really is no resolution to suicide - I suppose only God knows. It affects everyone deeply. I want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread, and Domi, I hope that you would never consider hurting yourself, not only would you hurt yourself, but I'm a testament that it also hurts the people surrounding that person - and for a very long time. I give the benefit of the doubt to her that she didn't intend to hurt anyone around her, but the act itself seems, at times, selfish. However, the way she lived doesn't want me to believe that she did this to be selfish. I will always remember her as a loving, human being. May God have mercy on her soul, and may the Lord forgive me that I failed to see the signs.

[CopticGirl]

CovaDaIria,

What a sad story, it brought tears to my eyes.

Please don't blame yourself.

It's so easy to look back on things after you know all the facts, and say what you should have done. But unfortunately that's not how life works out. Everything happens for a reason, and this was not your fault.

The love in your heart is so clear to me. I mean this happened 9 years ago, and you still feel guilty about it.

I will keep you and your friend in my prayers.

Kyrie Eleison, Kyrie Eleison, Lord Have Mercy.

God Bless.

[domi]

Hi Domi,

I don’t know for sure but I get the feeling that you have had previous bad experiences in the past with someone in authority and these traumatic experiences colour your view about priesthood. I also feel there are multiple issues you are dealing with at the same time and perhaps a new thread needs to be made to discuss those issues if you feel comfortable talking about it.

Good umm guss...educated guss???mabye u should have consitered psycoligy. I had alot of bad experices with authority but they don't relay bother me that much it's just that i got in a fight with someone else's abouna and they got angry at me and told me never to talk to them again. So that relay hurt me. I don't like to hurt people, i know what pain feals like i suffered enough of it, and personaly i hate to spread it to anyone else and more importanlty i hate to be hated. It relay ticks me off. Having someone say that to me is probly the worst thing in the world. And it wasn't just him either. Taunte said that to me too and that realy hurt. That's like 2 hurts after another. And that makes it even worse. I realy though i could trust taunte I realy thought she apricated me and then she out of no where tells me not to talk to her again.:cry: I seriosly didn't even do n e thing worng that time. I wouln't mind talking about it. Not like it could make things n e worse.

I’m going to talk about the issues that have come across during the discussion and you can tell me whether I am wrong and whether you are comfortable discussing them:



1) First thing, it sounds to me like you have had personal traumatic scars in your life, which is causing a lot of pain and I feel that you are seeking help but not finding it. The best help would be contacting a professional counsellor from the Coptic Church to discuss them with you. This can be done by contacting your Abouna and asking him whether he knows someone who is a counsellor in the Church. Counselling services from the Church has the advantage of giving you a Christian counselling which is orthodox. Someone who can discuss with you your doubts and insecurities but at the same time give you an Orthodox counselling service. If you can’t find one, I am more than happy to help you as much as I can, but I am not a professional counsellor. In our Church (Australia), Abouna sits down with the person and offers to get in touch with a psychologist from our Church with those who have experienced or experiencing traumatic scars that is causing depression.


I guss u can say that. See my problem is, besides the fact that my parents are crazy, that I was born at home by a midwife, which would have been quite wonderfull if i didn't end up with the unbilical cord wrapped aroud my neck, and i ended up with low muscle tone or if u had to though it into catogory, a verry mild case of cerebrial palsy. This caused me to have dificulty walking,cordinating moter functions, and speech problems. Although my psyical abilites are no longer limited because of 6 years of psycal therapy (this includes a speical pre-school program geard towards devolpetly chaleed kids). However along with that came constant harassment about not being normal and not fitting in. that relay hurt me. I also endurded 6 years of speech theapy and behold more harassment, unforanty although i can now say all the letters well with the exception of r which sounds more like wrr whenever i talk it's very nasel and unforanilty people notice and take advantage of it. I try not to let it get to me but it does. Because of this problem I have been unable to be "popular" in hs. I allways have people picking on me. It was horible in elentry school but now it's calmed down. Another problem i have is because the muscles in my mouth rn't that strong I sometimes chew with my mouth open,people call me a cow but it's not like there's n e thing i can do about it. No matter how hard i try sometimes it happens. Also, as u can see i'm also not the most psycial attractive pesron in the world so i dun think that helps either. *esp not in that STUPID icon pic I HATE THAT PICTURE*

I would love help to work out my probelms and ur comeplty right about how i'm seaking it but not finding it. But u see my problem is that when i'm not online i'm very shy. I have thought about talking to a pscyoligist about things but that would included telling my parents and i dun want to do that. I feal like if i tell n e one how i feal i will be embarsed to be aroud them. I know that's a stupid fealing but i would like to keep my self to my self. But in this situation IF I had an abouna which i don't, I might be willing to have a coneling session if I relay trused that person and I felt like i could be open with them as long as my paretns had NOTHING to do with it.


. 2) The reason why its so important to find someone to help you deal with the things that are causing you depression because it sounds to me that you are hurting so much, its causing misunderstandings to happen with your Abouna. When a person is hurting, everything or anything anyone says is taken with extreme sensitivity and the person is unable to handle it. The person who is hurting, then lashes out unintentionally to those who are trying to help them, for example like Abouna, and its causes Abouna to misunderstand their action.

That mabye the case but he's not my abouna, he's Hany's abduna and i didn't mean to hurt him but he doesn't want to talk to me. I dunn what I did to desereve that but i broke his trust and i broke Hany's trust and I just want things to go back to normal but they willn't. If things don't go back to normal soon i'm going to freak.



.3) I don’t exactly know where your background is from, and whether you have a Muslim background, because it sounds like it’s not clear to you yet why Jesus is God. I could be wrong. But, if you have trouble with that, please let me know, and I will open a new thread and we can discuss why Jesus is God.

I don't have a "muslim backgroud" at all. The only time i consitered Islam was for liek 4 weeks and frankly i wasn't taht into it. In regards to disucion WHY jeasus is god,I think i'm preaty clear on that but more discussion would be great to inforce it into my mind. I'm going to be a Jr. Consler in a Chirstan Camp i'm atteending this summer and before i go there and before I have this meating in May were i get interigated by some chirtian dude that game me a scolarship i would like to know more and grow stornger in my beliefs.

.The last thing that I would like to mention is that it sounds to me that the sacrament of repentance and confession as well as sacrament of priesthood is still unclear to you, which I would like to address in this discussion. The reason why I’m explaining things to you is that it might help you understand why things are the way they are in the Coptic Orthodox. Everything has a very deep meaning and has an important purpose in the Coptic Orthodox Church. Unless we understand the meaning, it will not make sense to us.

I would like for us to look together at Genesis Chapter 20, from verse 1-18. It would be really good if you have the opportunity to read it first before you read the rest of the explanation, so that it will make sense to you.



In Genesis Chapter 20, Abraham lies and tells king Abimelech that Sara is his sister so that they don’t kill him. So Abimelech, thinking that Sara is single, takes Sara to his home. God appears to Abimelech the king and tells him that Abimelech will die because he has taken Abraham’s wife. So Abimelech tells God that he didn’t know and this is what God replied, “Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her. Now therefore, restore the man's wife; for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you shall live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours." (Genesis 20: 6-7)



Now Abimelech was directly talking to God, why did God tell Abimelech for Abraham to pray for him in order for him to live? Its because God sanctifies the sacrament of repentance and confession and makes the sacrament Holy. Abraham wasn’t perfect, he was afraid, lied and didn’t have enough faith in God. But in God eyes the service that Abraham performs is Holy and not because Abraham is perfect or without sin. An example of this, is when a person serves in the Sunday School as a Sunday School teacher. The person is not perfect, does that mean they should stop serving God just because they are not perfect? The answer is, God blesses the service for the sake of the Children and not because the person who is serving is perfect.



“So Abraham prayed to God; and God healed Abimelech, his wife, and his female servants.” (Genesis 20:17) So every time Abouna prays the absolution for you after Confession, this prayer is Holy and has the power not only to remove sins, but also to heal. A personal prayer can be said while Abouna is praying the Absolution over us, saying “Lord forgive me my sins, strengthen me and heal me”.



When you give respect to a priest, even if in your opinion he isn’t perfect, you are giving respect to God. Jesus says, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.” (Matthew 25: 40)



St Paul reminds us of this, “Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.” (Romans 13: 1-2)

What's aclty relay funny is that I undersatnd that chapter already. I been going though Genisis and tearing it apart. I'll be done soon. I have it posted on another forum but i told Elizibeth and I guss u now that i will move it here as soon as i'm done. All the questions i have on there are preaty much everything that troubles me. And I understand the connectoin that ur trying to make with this speific story and the preisthood. The only thing i would doubt would be profets being closer to god then us. Because god loves us all equaly. Preists too. But there's no need to question god's athority. The more we know about god the more closer we r to him so if i want to be close to god i undersatnd howt o do it. Learn more, love more :)



.Part of respecting a priest is not judging them. Because if God allowed us to be in their position, we would not have the strength to do what they do. Imagine listening to the problems of people 24 hours, 7 days a week and still attending to your personal prayers and getting up early to perform the Holy Liturgy and long prayers. At the same time attending to your husbandly and fatherly duties at home with family. It is emotionally and physically demanding. Yes they love their Job, but it’s very very stressful. A person may go do volunteer work for short periods of time, but dedicating your whole life and every hour of your life for the service of God can take a lot out of you. How many times have people insulted them every day and yet they still have to keep going. They don’t get the chance like us to take time out to heal. If someone hurt us badly, we take ages to recover. What about our priests who experience daily hurt, but still have to forgive people. Let’s not brush aside this tremendous job that they do, because if God put us in that same position, I would personally fail

I understand where u r comming from. Priets deserve respect and i'm sry for not stressing the importance and psyical and emotialy demands that they have. I should have been more consiterate.



.I understand that you are hurting Domi, but there are other issues deep down that’s affecting you and its affecting the way you see things in Church. I more than happy to help you as much as I can, but I cant guarantee that my help will be of any use to you.



God loves you and he reaches out to you lovingly saying, “Since you were precious in My sight, You have been honored, And I have loved you” (Isaiah 43: 4)



Blessings and love

erini

Thanks for all ur support

-Domi

[domi]

GHEZ CHRSITAN FOURMS COME ON! that thing was like worth 4poasts...i want to start poasting immages and links GRRRRRRRRR

[CovaDaIria]

Thank you Copticgirl, it is also clear to me that you have a heart of gold for empathizing with what I guess would be human suffering. This forum has allowed me to openly discuss something that I never talked about with anyone over the years. Even the day of her funeral, my mother, as a way to try to get me to stiffen my upper lip, said, "Don't cry about it, she did this to herself." Now, imagine a 16 year old girl hearing this from her own mother, to add to the confusion I was already feeling! Plus, add the guilt, and it almost made me feel like doing it myself. Not anymore, of course. Sub-consciously, I even questioned why I chose to post this here in the Orthodox forum when I could have easily posted it anywhere else. Well, my friend was Orthodox, so I guess in the back of my mind, I did it so I could feel closer to her, and God won't let me resent what she did but instead, I have sought and found compassion and understanding.


You're right, things do happen for a reason. Life is full of trials that test your will to go on. When it first happened I would lay in bed depressed for many weeks, weeks turned into months, but through diligent prayer, things have come to pass, and a light was shone in my direction by God. One thing is clear, He is with me through my trials. My intention wasn't to make you tearful, but to share with you the experience, and I'm thankful I have your prayers. May God bless you, always!

[domi]

It's not ur falt. It's probly all the stupid people in the world...all the stupid lieing ciniving..DUMB people...but not u.

[erinipassi]

Hi Domi,



Sorry it took me a while to get back to you! I left you a private message and hope we can sort something out.



I think it’s very difficult to deal with hurtful situations or even try to be objective about hurtful situations. But, at the same time, part of healing involves stepping outside from our thoughts for a moment and looking at the entire picture as a whole.



When people tell us that they won’t be talking to us, it feels as if they are rejecting us and it’s hard not to take it personally. I know I have a hard time dealing with it myself. But the one thing that is really important to remind ourselves with, is often times when people say they won’t be talking to us, what they really mean is that they can’t handle the situation. We have to make allowances and accept the fact that everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. Some people may not be able to handle the situations or topics we present them with and rather than increase the tensions by saying the wrong things, they prefer not talking about it.



I can understand that it can get frustrating for you to find someone suitable to talk to you. But if the Abouna you mentioned is keeping a distance from you, understand that it’s not personally about you. It’s more about how he may not be able to handle the situation if there were more conversations spoken and end up saying the wrong things. This means that communication is not this Abouna’s strong point, and there are some priests like that where communication is not their strong point. But there many other Coptic priests who are emotionally supportive and very good at communication. My confessional father is very emotionally and spiritually supportive, but it took me a while to meet my confessional father because I live in a very isolated area.



When we meet with priests who are not good at communication, they still deserve our respect because firstly, as I mentioned before, giving respect to them is like giving respect to God. If we do it to even those who we consider the “least”, we are doing it to God. Secondly, because they have strengths that you and I don’t have. Allow we me to post to you an extract from a website about the Desert fathers and what they used to do:



“Abba Ammonas was asked, 'What is the "narrow and hard way?" (mt. 7.14) He replied, 'The "narrow and hard way" is this, to control your thoughts, and to strip yourself of your own will, for the sake of God. THis is also the meaning of the sentence, "Lo, we have left everything and followed you." (Mt. 19.27)It was said of him that he had a hollow in his chest channelled out by the tears which fell from his eyes all his life while he sat at his manual work. When Abba Poemen learned that he was dead, he said weeping, 'Truly you are blessed, Abba Arsenius, for you wept for yourself in this world! He who does not weep for himself here below will weep eternally hereafter; so it is impossible not to weep, either voluntarily or when compelled through suffering.' [i.e. the latter suffering in hell]It was also said of him (Abba Arsenius) that on Saturday evenings, pre- paring for the glory of Sunday, he would turn his back on the sun and stretch out his hands in prayer towards the heavens, till once again the sun shone on his face. Then he would sit down.”

Abba (Father) Arsenius used to weep for hours every day about his sins and pray long hours asking Jesus to have mercy on his soul, a sinner. In long prayers, oftentimes priests will do the same, asking God to have mercy on them and in humility, weeping asking God not to allow anyone to be lost because of them. You will see an example of this in the Coptic Liturgy just before Holy Communion when every priest prays, saying:



“Remember my weaknesses O’ Lord. Forgive my numerous sins. Increase Your Grace to obliterate and cover the abundance of my sins. Please do not hinder Your people for the sake of my sins and the infidelity of my heart. Absolve me and all Your people.” (Extract from St. Basil Coptic Liturgy)



This is why Priests who are in prayer for long hours are considered closer to God because in their prayer they offer up their weaknesses and ask God to have mercy on them and on the people. You will always hear the Jesus prayer being prayed and especially by priest, which is, “Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner”. This humility is precious in the eyes of God. Jesus refers to it in Luke 18:



“Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, "God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'

And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, "God, be merciful to me a sinner!'

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." (Luke 18: 9-14)



Here are some extracts that explains the sacrament of Priesthood from various websites:

“The Sacrament of Priesthood is the Holy Sacrament by which the Bishop lays his hand on the elected candidate in order for the Holy Spirit to descend on this person to grant him one of the priestly ranks. As a result, the ordained person is granted the authority to perform the ministry of the Church, whether the Holy Sacraments, teaching or others. This process is called “Laying of hands” or “Ordination.”

Lord Jesus Christ instituted this Sacrament when He chose the twelve of His followers and consecrated them for ministry, “He called His disciples to Him, and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles” (Lk 6:13). He gave them the authority of absolution and binding, “He breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (Jn 20:22-23).”



“The word 'Priest' comes from the Greek word 'Presbyteros'. 'Presbeya' means Intercession, therefore the priest is our intercessor to the Lord.”

“The When the Bible says we are all “kings and priests unto God” (Rev. 1:6), it is not saying that we are all presbyters (elders). When Hebrews and Revelations says “priest”, the Greek word here is "hieries", a completely different word altogether. “Hiereis” or “hiereus” means someone who participates in sacred rites.”



So a priest, despite his weaknesses, is our intercessor before the Lord and the Lord consecrates the service that they do, especially in the sacrament of the repentance and confession. Their service is consecrated which means, it has a special blessing inside it and has the Lord’s power. That is why the priests are closer to God than you and I., not because they are perfect, but through this Holy Service and consecration, they develop a really deep relationship with God, deeper than you and I.



There are so many things that you mentioned which I would like to talk with you and hope we can sort something out. Please let me know through private message what you would like to do. I also so your post about the bible questions and I’m going to post a reply.



It sounds to me you have gone through a really rough time and I really feel for you and how traumatic it was all for you. I deeply admire your courage because it takes a lot of strength to cope with physical disabilities as well as people’s reaction to it. May God heal you, my sister, and give you his strength and peace for all the days of your life.



Love and blessings
erini

[erinipassi]

Hi CovaDairia,



My heart really goes out to you CovaDairia! Loss of any kind is not something one can get over easily and is very painful, especially the loss of a friend through death of suicide. Sometimes we receive the most hurtful comments from those who are closest to us, but oftentimes it’s because they themselves can’t handle the situation either.



You’ve lost not only a friend but someone who was part of your everyday life. It can feel like as if you’ve lost part of you. I think when we are trying to deal with the issue of our guilt its important that we remember that we are only a human being, and not a Superhuman being. If we were Superhuman beings, we would always do the right thing at the right time without a single mistake in our life. If we were Superhuman beings, we can prevent all disasters and solve all human problems. But because we are only human, we are not perfect and cannot prevent all disasters. Sometimes we have such high expectations of ourselves that we tend to place ourselves in the pedestal of super human beings and guilt can eat away at us.



Jesus says, “…you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:32) The truth is, that we are human beings who are not perfect. God understands that, he loves you so deeply and gives us constantly his forgiveness. Part of your pain comes from being unable to forgive yourself. Reach out to accept God’s forgiveness and forgive yourself. If you have come to the stage where you forgave your friend, forgiving yourself is just as important.“Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” (Hebrew 4: 14-16)



May God heal your heart and mind and give you his peace, “and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 4: 7)



Blessings and love

erini

[domi]

Hi Domi,



Sorry it took me a while to get back to you! I left you a private message and hope we can sort something out.

It's ok i'm chill :) I understand it's not like ur life revoles around the computer hehehehe. Dun think n e ones does.



I think it’s very difficult to deal with hurtful situations or even try to be objective about hurtful situations. But, at the same time, part of healing involves stepping outside from our thoughts for a moment and looking at the entire picture as a whole.

Yep yep.


When people tell us that they won’t be talking to us, it feels as if they are rejecting us and it’s hard not to take it personally. I know I have a hard time dealing with it myself. But the one thing that is really important to remind ourselves with, is often times when people say they won’t be talking to us, what they really mean is that they can’t handle the situation. We have to make allowances and accept the fact that everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. Some people may not be able to handle the situations or topics we present them with and rather than increase the tensions by saying the wrong things, they prefer not talking about it.



I can understand that it can get frustrating for you to find someone suitable to talk to you. But if the Abouna you mentioned is keeping a distance from you, understand that it’s not personally about you. It’s more about how he may not be able to handle the situation if there were more conversations spoken and end up saying the wrong things. This means that communication is not this Abouna’s strong point, and there are some priests like that where communication is not their strong point. But there many other Coptic priests who are emotionally supportive and very good at communication. My confessional father is very emotionally and spiritually supportive, but it took me a while to meet my confessional father because I live in a very isolated area.



When we meet with priests who are not good at communication, they still deserve our respect because firstly, as I mentioned before, giving respect to them is like giving respect to God. If we do it to even those who we consider the “least”, we are doing it to God. Secondly, because they have strengths that you and I don’t have.

Yah i understand where ur comming from. But i mean he talks to everyone else and even if it is for the good of both of us for him to stay away from me it still hurts me to think that i had something to do with it. I mean if i was a better person then none of this would have happned.

Allow we me to post to you an extract from a website about the Desert fathers and what they used to do:



“Abba Ammonas was asked, 'What is the "narrow and hard way?" (mt. 7.14) He replied, 'The "narrow and hard way" is this, to control your thoughts, and to strip yourself of your own will, for the sake of God. THis is also the meaning of the sentence, "Lo, we have left everything and followed you." (Mt. 19.27)It was said of him that he had a hollow in his chest channelled out by the tears which fell from his eyes all his life while he sat at his manual work. When Abba Poemen learned that he was dead, he said weeping, 'Truly you are blessed, Abba Arsenius, for you wept for yourself in this world! He who does not weep for himself here below will weep eternally hereafter; so it is impossible not to weep, either voluntarily or when compelled through suffering.' [i.e. the latter suffering in hell]It was also said of him (Abba Arsenius) that on Saturday evenings, pre- paring for the glory of Sunday, he would turn his back on the sun and stretch out his hands in prayer towards the heavens, till once again the sun shone on his face. Then he would sit down.”

Abba (Father) Arsenius used to weep for hours every day about his sins and pray long hours asking Jesus to have mercy on his soul, a sinner. In long prayers, oftentimes priests will do the same, asking God to have mercy on them and in humility, weeping asking God not to allow anyone to be lost because of them. You will see an example of this in the Coptic Liturgy just before Holy Communion when every priest prays, saying:



“Remember my weaknesses O’ Lord. Forgive my numerous sins. Increase Your Grace to obliterate and cover the abundance of my sins. Please do not hinder Your people for the sake of my sins and the infidelity of my heart. Absolve me and all Your people.” (Extract from St. Basil Coptic Liturgy)



This is why Priests who are in prayer for long hours are considered closer to God because in their prayer they offer up their weaknesses and ask God to have mercy on them and on the people. You will always hear the Jesus prayer being prayed and especially by priest, which is, “Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner”. This humility is precious in the eyes of God. Jesus refers to it in Luke 18:



“Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, "God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'

And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, "God, be merciful to me a sinner!'

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." (Luke 18: 9-14)

Cool...nice 2 know.



Here are some extracts that explains the sacrament of Priesthood from various websites:

“The Sacrament of Priesthood is the Holy Sacrament by which the Bishop lays his hand on the elected candidate in order for the Holy Spirit to descend on this person to grant him one of the priestly ranks. As a result, the ordained person is granted the authority to perform the ministry of the Church, whether the Holy Sacraments, teaching or others. This process is called “Laying of hands” or “Ordination.”

Lord Jesus Christ instituted this Sacrament when He chose the twelve of His followers and consecrated them for ministry, “He called His disciples to Him, and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles” (Lk 6:13). He gave them the authority of absolution and binding, “He breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (Jn 20:22-23).”



“The word 'Priest' comes from the Greek word 'Presbyteros'. 'Presbeya' means Intercession, therefore the priest is our intercessor to the Lord.”

“The When the Bible says we are all “kings and priests unto God” (Rev. 1:6), it is not saying that we are all presbyters (elders). When Hebrews and Revelations says “priest”, the Greek word here is "hieries", a completely different word altogether. “Hiereis” or “hiereus” means someone who participates in sacred rites.”



So a priest, despite his weaknesses, is our intercessor before the Lord and the Lord consecrates the service that they do, especially in the sacrament of the repentance and confession. Their service is consecrated which means, it has a special blessing inside it and has the Lord’s power. That is why the priests are closer to God than you and I., not because they are perfect, but through this Holy Service and consecration, they develop a really deep relationship with God, deeper than you and I.

Yah I remeber that now. My freind got ordained and that's what they did to her but i couln't remeber why. it's nice to have that explianed now I aclty kinda understand it. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I think i can understand why they r a little closer to god. that's so asome that Jeasus did that to the first decipes so they did that to others and other people before them untill the present so somewhere there there's still jeasus how cool.:D



There are so many things that you mentioned which I would like to talk with you and hope we can sort something out. Please let me know through private message what you would like to do. I also so your post about the bible questions and I’m going to post a reply.

Ok i'll do that. COOOL COOL RICE CAKES!!!!! hehehehe. I'll replay to that replay 2.



It sounds to me you have gone through a really rough time and I really feel for you and how traumatic it was all for you. I deeply admire your courage because it takes a lot of strength to cope with physical disabilities as well as people’s reaction to it. May God heal you, my sister, and give you his strength and peace for all the days of your life..
Aww thanks. Yah but now that I think of it if i let people harass me and if I belive all of it then it's not going to be good at all so it's better if I don't take it personaly. Thanks


Love and blessings
erini.

In Christ
-Domi

[domi]

How can they be dead..taking a knife to ur throat is the same as taking to many drugs by mistake.the intention to take drugs which is a sin was still there so how come there's a certain sin that's more sinfull then one sin. A sin is a sin is a sin and god died to forgive all our sins so how come hey can't forgive suicide?All orthodox churches believe the same things I think.
The Coptic (egyptian christian) church if im correct believes that they cant go to heaven because they cant repent of this sin because they are dead. But sometimes people overdose by accident like elvis presley (he didnt know how much he took would kill him) so again if im correct Christ will have mercy on them and they will go where the saints are. But suicide is not mentioned directly in the bible so I dont know. Its going to be Gods judgment at the end and we know His ever merciful and we will agree with His judgment I believe one day.

[erinipassi]

Hi Domi,

Please read my reply on p.1 of this thread to understand more about suicide and why its wrong.

love and blessings
erini

[domi]

ops :(Hi Domi,

Please read my reply on p.1 of this thread to understand more about suicide and why its wrong.

love and blessings
erini