How many Liturgies/Rites in the East?

[anawim]

I was wondering how many Rites/Liturgies there are in the Eastern Churches. I've heard the term 'Byzantine Rite', and I've heard of the Liturgy of St. John. Are they the same thing, or is the Liturgy of St. John an example of a Byzantine Rite? Also, in the past year, I heard of the Liturgy of St. James in connection to Iraqi Christians.

[vanshan]

Byzantine rite normally refers to those Catholic parishes who follow an eastern orthodox form of worship, but I'm not familiar with exactly what service they use.

In the Orthodox Church we celebrate the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom most Sundays of the year. During Great Lent the Liturgy of St. Basil the Great is used on select Sundays.

I've heard of the Liturgy of St. James, but I have never heard of an Orthodox Church using that. Does anyone know more?

Basil

[Oblio]

I've heard of the Liturgy of St. James, but I have never heard of an Orhodox Church using that. Does anyone know more?


I thought the JP used it in Jerusalem on his feast day.

[Rilian]

The main Eucharistic services I'm aware of are St. Basil's (celebrated only at certain times, St. John Chrysostom's (an abridgment of St. Basil's and the normal weekly liturgy), the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts also known as the Liturgy of St. Leo Pope of Rome (only celebrated on weekdays during Lent) and the liturgy of St. James (very long and only celebrated on one feast day).

There are many non-Eucharistic services held throughout the year as well.

[forgot to mention, there is a very small Western Rite movement that has two liturgies that are commonly used.]

[Matrona]

The main Eucharistic services I'm aware of are St. Basil's (celebrated only at certain times, St. John Chrysostom's (an abridgment of St. Basil's and the normal weekly liturgy), the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts also known as the Liturgy of St. Leo Pope of Rome (only celebrated on weekdays during Lent) and the liturgy of St. James (very long and only celebrated on one feast day).

There are many non-Eucharistic services held throughout the year as well.

[forgot to mention, there is a very small Western Rite movement that has two liturgies that are commonly used.]

Actually, I think the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts was compiled by St. Gregory Dialogos, Bishop of Rome, not St. Leo.

[Rilian]

Yes, you're right, I had Leo on the mind today. It is the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great, Pope of Rome. It also happens to be my favorite, which makes me feel doubly silly.

[MariaRegina]

Actually, I think the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts was compiled by St. Gregory Dialogos, Bishop of Rome, not St. Leo.

You are right Matrona, and the Presanctified Liturgy remembers St. Gregory Dialogos during that Holy Service.

Incidentally, St. Gregory also standardized the Latin Liturgy and it became known as the Liturgy of St. Gregory or the Gregorian Liturgy.

[Matrona]

St. Gregory is also the one who "Gregorian chant" is named after. :clap:

[Alexis OCA]

St. Gregory is also the one who "Gregorian chant" is named after. :clap:


I'll chant to that!:clap:

Regards,
GregChant;)

[Julio]

Byzantine rite normally refers to those Catholic parishes who follow an eastern orthodox form of worship, but I'm not familiar with exactly what service they use.

Actually, "Byzantine rite" is the name of the liturgical tradition common to most Orthodox (Western rite parishes excluded, of course) and Eastern rite Roman Catholics (usually styled "Byzantine Catholics"). As Rilian noted, out of a veritable abundance of local Liturgies, the Byzantine rite has preserved for us three, in the form that they were celebrated in the Holy and Great Church of Christ (Hagia Sophia in Constantinople): St Basil the Great's, St John Chrysostom's, and St Gregory the Dialogist's (compiled, incidentally, from his observation of this Lenten service while he was Roman See's ambassador to Constantinople). The restoration of the Divine Liturgy of St James is a fairly recent (and welcome!) phenomenon. It seems to have been the principal Eucharistic liturgy of the Church of Jerusalem; Syrian and Malayam recensions of it are still used as the ordinary Liturgy of the Syrian (Monophysite) Churches in Middle East and India (which suggests that it was also the rite of the Church of Antioch). There exists also in Greek a Divine Liturgy of St Mark, which was the principal Eucharistic liturgy of the Church of Alexandria before the Monophysite schism, although I'm uncertain whether this is at all celebrated in the Alexandrian Patriarchate today. Coptic and Ethiopic recensions of it are still in use as the ordinary Liturgy of the Coptic and Ethiopian Churches, respectively. The exisiting Greek Liturgies of St James and St Mark have been "byzantinized", that is to say, conformed to standard Constantinopolitan practice, but this is to be expected if the Typikon (Ordo) of the Great Church is assumed to be standard (as it is through out the Orthodox world).

[Rick of Wessex]

Hola Julio, como estás?

There exists also in Greek a Divine Liturgy of St Mark, which was the principal Eucharistic liturgy of the Church of Alexandria before the Monophysite schism, although I'm uncertain whether this is at all celebrated in the Alexandrian Patriarchate today.

Unfortunately it is not - and there's not an English translation of it, either.

And besides those five liturgies mentioned above, there are two other "Byzantine" liturgies:

- the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Theologian's (used in the past by Orthodox Christians of Cappadocia and Sinai), and
- St. Peter's Liturgy, used by the Orthodox communities of southern Italy (before the Norman invasion).

Neither of them are available in English - only in Greek.

In XC,
Rick

[Xpycoctomos]

What about the Ethipian Orthodox. From what I am told, there is a part that is not Coptic but rather are in communion with the rest of the Eastern Orthodox Church through their acceptance of the 7 eccumenical councils and outright rejection of monophysitism. Do they use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. i would have thought they had their own liturgy more similar to that of the Copts (as I imagine that they share a common heritage pre-Chalcedon).

Excuse my ignorance.

John

[Julio]

Hola Julio, como estás?

¡Muy bien, gracias a Dios! Espero que también te encuentres bien. :wave:

Unfortunately it is not [....].

Well, that is a shame.

- the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Theologian's (used in the past by Orthodox Christians of Cappadocia and Sinai), and
- St. Peter's Liturgy, used by the Orthodox communities of southern Italy (before the Norman invasion).

I assume that the Liturgy of St Gregory the Theologian is no longer served even in Sinai, as you say that it was used "in the past". As for this Liturgy of St Peter you mention, could this be the one using the Roman Canon, which is preserved both in Greek and Slavonic editions? If so, you'll be delighted to know that there is indeed an English translation, done recently by the Archpriest John Shaw of the Russian Church Abroad. He used the text of an Athonite Sluzhebnik from Hilandar.

[Aristokles]

- the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Theologian's (used in the past by Orthodox Christians of Cappadocia and Sinai), and
- St. Peter's Liturgy, used by the Orthodox communities of southern Italy (before the Norman invasion).

Neither of them are available in English - only in Greek.


Hi Rick,
I'd love to get these - even if in Greek alone. Is there an internet source?

Demetri

[Xpycoctomos]

Anybody know about my Ethiopian Church (Chacedonian) question. Are they just an EO import that came after the controversy and therefore use the DL of St. John Chrysostom or are their roots going back to Ethiopia wll before the Chalcedon controversy and perhaps then use a liturgy more similar to that of the Copts? I jsut find the prospect odd that our Church (apart from the Western Rite under Antioch) is liturgically homogenous when that was anything but the case in the early church.

John

[Julio]

What about the Ethiopian Orthodox. From what I am told, there is a part that is not Coptic but rather are in communion with the rest of the Eastern Orthodox Church through their acceptance of the 7 eccumenical councils and outright rejection of monophysitism. Do they use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. i would have thought they had their own liturgy more similar to that of the Copts (as I imagine that they share a common heritage pre-Chalcedon).

Dear John, no part of the Ethiopian or the Eritrean Churches are in communion with the Eastern Orthodox Churches, but rather wholly remain in communion with the Coptic Church, from which they obtain clerical education and, in some cases, their episcopacy. I once heard similar rumors, but this is what I found out; if anyone else has cold, hard evidence to the contrary, please post! :D

[Xpycoctomos]

So we have no presence in Ethipia apart from Churches abroad like you might find in Western Europe? Did we become so homogeonous liturgically as a direct result of Chalcedon or did that happen through later liturfical reforms and a kind of centralization under constantinople? Obviously i can't, but I would love to be able to attend a different liturgy and participate fully. That's a bummer. i mean, it's not a tragedy... but it's a bummer that I can only be a spectator in a coptic Church (ie, that there are no Calcedon-accepting Copt-like christians in communion with us.

John

[Xpycoctomos]

by the way, thanks Julio. :)

[Monica, child of God]

I have a question on the churches in Ethiopia: A Catholic Ethiopian coworker of mine says that in her country the Ethiopian Orthodox and Catholics use the same liturgy and liturgical language, Ge'ez. They fast the same, wear the same vestments, the churches are built the same way, etc. She says there is virtually no difference in the 2 churches, except that one is in communion with Rome. Was there some kind of Uniate movement in East Africa?

Monica

[Julio]

So we have no presence in Ethiopia apart from Churches abroad like you might find in Western Europe? Did we become so homogeonous liturgically as a direct result of Chalcedon or did that happen through later liturgical reforms and a kind of centralization under Constantinople?

The homogenization came as a result of the increasing prestige of the Typikon of the Holy and Great Church of Christ, and unlike in the West, where liturgical conformity had to be enforced from the top, the conformity was freely accepted by all in the East. Of course, after the Nestorian and Monophysite schisms especially, liturgical diversity was hard to come by, anyway.

Obviously I can't, but I would love to be able to attend a different liturgy and participate fully. That's a bummer. I mean, it's not a tragedy... but it's a bummer that I can only be a spectator in a Coptic Church (i.e., that there are no Chalcedon-accepting Copt-like Christians in communion with us).

It is kind of a shame. But note that the contemporary liturgies of the Oriental Churches have suffered changes which reflect the theological errors of (at least) their forbears, and so render them unsuitable for Orthodox use, anyway. You might try to attend an honest-to-goodness Western rite liturgy, though, at a place such as Christ the Savior Monastery (Christminster) of the Russian Church Abroad, in Providence, RI.

[Rilian]

I have a question on the churches in Ethiopia: A Catholic Ethiopian coworker of mine says that in her country the Ethiopian Orthodox and Catholics use the same liturgy and liturgical language, Ge'ez. They fast the same, wear the same vestments, the churches are built the same way, etc. She says there is virtually no difference in the 2 churches, except that one is in communion with Rome. Was there some kind of Uniate movement in East Africa?

Monica

Monica, I believe this is essentially the case. I can't remember the whole history of the Ge'ez Rite, but I believe it was part of or at least in the spirit of the uniatism that split the Slavic churches and the Patriarchate of Antioch in the period from the 16th to the 18th centuries. Quite a sorrowful legacy it has left us.

[Monica, child of God]

Monica, I believe this is essentially the case. I can't remember the whole history of the Ge'ez Rite, but I believe it was part of or at least in the spirit of the uniatism that split the Slavic churches and the Patriarchate of Antioch in the period from the 16th to the 18th centuries. Quite a sorrowful legacy it has left us.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the info.
I wonder how they overcame the issue of the Council of Chalcedon? Did the Ethiopian Church just sign onto the missing councils? This is interesting. I would think there would be more differences to overcome with a non-Chalcedonian/Roman Catholic union than a NC/OC union. But then again, what do I know.

Monica

[Irish Melkite]

I have a question on the churches in Ethiopia: A Catholic Ethiopian coworker of mine says that in her country the Ethiopian Orthodox and Catholics use the same liturgy and liturgical language, Ge'ez. They fast the same, wear the same vestments, the churches are built the same way, etc. She says there is virtually no difference in the 2 churches, except that one is in communion with Rome. Was there some kind of Uniate movement in East Africa?

I wonder how they overcame the issue of the Council of Chalcedon? Did the Ethiopian Church just sign onto the missing councils? This is interesting. I would think there would be more differences to overcome with a non-Chalcedonian/Roman Catholic union than a NC/OC union.

Monica,

As to the history behind the Ethiopian Catholic Church, it really had two phases, which were sometimes as heavily involved with politics as they were with matters ecclesiastic. CNEWA offers a concise summary of it (http://www.cnewa.org/ecc-ethiopian-catholic.htm); more detail, as to the early phases (http://www.directionjournal.org/article/?1004), is on a Mennonite site and, as to the later phases (http://www.catholic-forum.com/churches/kidanemehret/geezrite1840-1979.html), on the site of Kidane Meheret, an Ethiopian Catholic parish in DC.

Although I don't recollect much in the way of specific references to it, those among the Ethiopian hierarchy, clergy, and faithful who entered communion with Rome apparently accepted Chalcedon and the subsequent Councils. The same situation would have arisen with the Catholic counterparts that exist to the other non-Chalcedonian Churches: Coptic, Armenian, Syriac, and Syro-Malankara and with the Chaldean Catholic counterpart to the Assyrian Church.

A similar situation also had to have been overcome with respect to the entry into communion with the Moscow Patriarchate of a small body of Assyrians who subsequently were styled "Assyrian Orthodox" and were eventually, except for a small community in Iraq, assimilated into ROCOR.

Many years,

Neil

[Rilian]

Monica, it appears looking at the CNEWA page that the Ge'ez story seems to fit the pattern of splitting autonomous Eastern churches that Rome engaged in for a long time. Like I said, what a sorrowful and tragic legacy it has left us.

Also, by entering in to a Unia, the Ethiopians who entered in to Eucharistic communion with Rome accept not only the seven Ecumenical councils we recognize; they accept all 21 "ecumenical" councils held by Rome.

[Rick of Wessex]

!Hola, Julio!

¡Muy bien, gracias a Dios! Espero que también te encuentres bien. :wave:

También estoy muy bien, gracias a Dios. ;)

I assume that the Liturgy of St Gregory the Theologian is no longer served even in Sinai, as you say that it was used "in the past".

Unfortunately not. As far as I know, only a few books - most of them preserved in monasteries - have copies of this liturgy - however, I believe there's a translation to contemporary Greek.


As for this Liturgy of St Peter you mention, could this be the one using the Roman Canon, which is preserved both in Greek and Slavonic editions? If so, you'll be delighted to know that there is indeed an English translation, done recently by the Archpriest John Shaw of the Russian Church Abroad. He used the text of an Athonite Sluzhebnik from Hilandar.

That's exactly St. Peter's Liturgy!! Do you know where can I find this translation?

Hi Rick,
I'd love to get these - even if in Greek alone. Is there an internet source

Hi, Demetri. As far as I know, only St. Peter's has been recently published in English, as Julio mentioned above.

About St. Gregory's, I guess it can be found in contemporary Greek, but I'm not really sure. If you can speak Greek, you might try to google it.

In XC,
Rick

[Justinos]

And besides those five liturgies mentioned above, there are two other "Byzantine" liturgies:

- the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Theologian's (used in the past by Orthodox Christians of Cappadocia and Sinai), and
- St. Peter's Liturgy, used by the Orthodox communities of southern Italy (before the Norman invasion).

Neither of them are available in English - only in Greek.
In XC,
Rick

Early Church Fathers collection at Christian Classics Ethereal Library has some kind of translations of the liturgies of St. James, St. Mark and a liturgy which it calls The Liturgy of the Blessed Apostles, which seems to be the liturgy of Addai and Mari.

Unfortunately it seems I cannot post the link as I'm such a new user. They can be found by browsing to Christian Classics Ethereal Library, the Church Fathers, Volume VII at the bottom of the index page.