Discussion on the Necessity of Baptism

[aggie03]

I would like to take just a moment to begin the discussion in which we are about to partake on the right foot. I believe that there is almost no greater homage, no greater worship that we can give to God than the study of His word if it is done in the proper manner. W. Jay Schroeder and I have agreed to this discussion with the hopes that we might do just that.

Psalms 119:9-12 ASV

Wherewith shall a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed thereto according to thy word. (10) With my whole heart have I sought thee: Oh let me not wander from thy commandments. (11) Thy word have I laid up in my heart, That I might not sin against thee. (12) Blessed art thou, O Jehovah: Teach me thy statutes.

We will attempt to recognize that the only way we can be justified before God is that way that is revealed to us through His word. We will try to seek after God with all of hearts, earnestly seeking for the Truth of the Scriptures, and we will strive to stay near the commandments of God, not wandering from them no matter where they leave us.

The purpose of this discussion is to allow us to talk about God, who God is, what His what teaches, and to give us a chance to store this word within our hearts -- to make it a part of who we are so that we can learn to be more like God. Above all other things that we come away with when our time together is finished is the hope that God will indeed teach us His commandments.

Psalms 119:160 ASV

The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever.

We recognize that in our endeavor to discuss what the Bible teaches, we must consider everything that God has given us. We would not be considering the sum of God's word if we did otherwise, and we therefore would not be considering the Truth. We also recognize that this may take a little bit of time -- but the time spent will be more than worth the final result if the only outcome is that we both learn more about God.

Romans 3:4 ASV

God forbid: yea, let God be found true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy words, And mightest prevail when thou comest into judgment.

If we are willing to let the truth revealed in the Scriptures to speak for Itself we will be justified in our words. If we are willing to admit that we could be wrong in what we believe, in effect making us a liar while admitting that God is true, and are then willing to change our lives and beliefs to conform with what God has said then we can prevail in the day of judgment.

W. Jay Schroeder and I have entered into this discussion not to attempt to prove what one believes as being superior to the others', but we have joined in this effort to try and understand what God has told us in the Bible. We have come together to discuss, to study, to learn and to grow both in our knowledge of the Scriptures and our love for the Lord.

To you, the readers, I pray that as you read through these posts that will soon come to follow you seek to treasure the word of God, to lay it up in you heart, to seek after Him and His kingdom with all that you are and with all that you are able. Let the Bible speaks where God has spoken, and be silent where God has been silent. Consider the sum of the word of the Lord, and be willing to allow yourself to be wrong so that you may prove God to be true. I would personally request your prayers that I be willing, also, to do the same thing.

We will try to season our words as with salt, to discuss and talk with humble hearts and a peaceful disposition. We will try in all things, and in all ways, to give the glory to God and to speak the truth in love.

In ending this introductory post, I would like to thank, once again, W. Jay Schroeder for his interest in spiritual things and his willingness to talk with me about them. I would like to thank everyone who reads this thread and contributes to the non-participant commentary. May God bless us all and teach us His statutes. Amen.

[W Jay Schroeder]

Thank you, very nice start. you may go first. i would add to what you said but you covered it all very nicely, so there is no need to add to what you have said. I will opologize now for my poor grammar and spelling. i try to work on it but quit frankly i am just not good at them. i tend to rush my post because my computer kicks me off line alot, which worsens my already poor grammaer and spelling. You may proceed. you can make a over all statement such as I BELIEVE WATER BAPTISM IS NOT A COMMAND OF CHRIST THEREFORE I CONTEND THAT IT IS NOT A PART OF THE SALVATION MESSAGE. SO the spectators know where both of us stand. We can make a overall post for our beliefs or stick with one or two passages and share why we believe it is or is not about water and its prpose in salvation. However you wish to start it off.

[W Jay Schroeder]

Well since aggie03 is not in a hurry i will give a few passages for those interested. John 3:3-6, it says we must be born again. we were born once of water( mothers womb, Flesh gives birth to the Flesh verse 6) and so he says we must be born agian or have a rebirth. verse 6 says the Spirit gives birth to the Spirit. John 6:63 says the Spirit gives life the Flesh counts for nothing. 2 COr 3:6 says the Spirit gives life 3:17 says the Lord is the Spirit and we are being tranformed into his likeness, which comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. titus 3:5 says the Spirit gives us a rebirth and renewal. We now this is the Spirit and not water because of John 3:3-6. So this all is the Baptism of the Lord that John the baptist spoke of. He said his would decrease and the Lords would increase. Mark 16:16 says believe and is baptised. Most think the word baptize is the water baptism, but is is not, it is the Holy Spirit. Why? because in john 3:16-18 speaks of this believing that is neccassary. look at verse 18, it is identicle to Mark 16:16 except the word baptism, why was it not said here. Because he had not yet died and risen so his spirit baptism was not in effect yet. Jesus says we are to be born again as explained above. We know it is of the Spirit. So we must believe(in our hearts John 3:16) and be baptized(born again by the holy SPirit). scripture shows us this belief and receiving of the Holy SPirit in Acts 11:16-17 and Acts 15:8. We can not believe in our MINDS and recieve the spirit baptism. wE MUST BELIEVE IN OUR HEARTS, WHICH IS WHY IT IS REPEATED IN VERSE 16, THAT if we do not believe we will be condemed. We know that all of the Acts conversion stories that they received the Holy SPirit baptism before they were water baptized. So with this i contend that water baptism is not reguired for salvation and has no part of it at all. Whether it is commanded afterwards is of another debate. i contend it was not commanded by christ at all, but that is another subject. i do not think we should not do it or any such thing a only say it was not a command.

[W Jay Schroeder]

Well in reading what is given so far i would have to agree with W. Jay Schroeder.

[aggie03]

Thank you, very nice start. you may go first. i would add to what you said but you covered it all very nicely, so there is no need to add to what you have said.

Thank you very much. Your kind words are greatly appreciated :hug:

I will opologize now for my poor grammar and spelling. i try to work on it but quit frankly i am just not good at them. i tend to rush my post because my computer kicks me off line alot, which worsens my already poor grammaer and spelling.


No need to apologize. I, nor anyone else with a heart seeking after God, will judge the things you say based upon punctuation and spelling. However, if you have problems with getting kicked off a great deal, rather than hurrying to compose your posts, you might want to consider writing them offline and then cutting and pasting them into the thread. I have had to do this before, and it's a technique that works rather well. If you need any more detailed help with how to do this, I would be more than willing to offer any assistance I might be able to :). I would also recommend, if you haven't already, downloading the Bible software that was mentioned in the discussion invitation. You can find it at www.e-sword.net (http://www.e-sword.net/). It's 100% free! If you use a Macintosh, you might want to try www.macsword.com. (http://www.macsword.com./)

You may proceed. you can make a over all statement such as I BELIEVE WATER BAPTISM IS NOT A COMMAND OF CHRIST THEREFORE I CONTEND THAT IT IS NOT A PART OF THE SALVATION MESSAGE.

I'm not going to do this with regard to baptism in water. I don't think it's necessary or productive for the type of discussion that we're going to try and have here.

Rather than contending for something that I claim the Bible teaches, I am going to contend for the Scriptures, and that with careful, diligent and logical studies one is able to understand the things that are written.

I believe that the word of God is perfect, that there are no fauls or errors in the things that is presents. I believe that God loves us so much, He gave us the Scriptures so that we could know who He and becomes wise with the knowledge that leads us to salvation (2 Timothy 3:15).

I don't want to try and prove something that I believe to be true; instead, I want to try and prove the Bible true, to prove God to be true, and then I will align my views with those things. If, as we study and discuss the Scriptures together, it seems as though the things that I currently believe do not align with what the Bible teaches, then I will change without hesitation.

I pray that everyone who is a part of our discussion, either through reading or through posting (comments from those not in the debate are welcome in the corresponding thread to this one here: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=14280789)

If this doesn't make sense, please let me know, and I will be more than happy to try and clarify what I have said.

SO the spectators know where both of us stand.

I believe that we ought to speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where it is silent - speaking like the prophets and apostles did, as the oracles of God (1 Peter 4:11). I believe that we ought to try and prove God to be right in all things, even if that makes us wrong sometimes (Romans 3:4).

We can make a overall post for our beliefs or stick with one or two passages and share why we believe it is or is not about water and its prpose in salvation. However you wish to start it off.

Rather than starting off by posting about overall beliefs, I would like to start by posting briefly how I believe that we can learn from the Scriptures. First, I believe that there are three things that we need to consider when trying to determine what God expects from us. Is there a command for something? Is there an example of something? Is there an inference for something? I believe that through the Bible God allows or commands things only through these three avenues: a command, an example or a necessary inference.

Secondly, the context of the passages that we are going to talk about will be important. This extends to a variety of areas, for example, the audience to whom the letter was originally intended. If we change the audience of a given letter in our minds before we begin to read through them, then we have already lost a part of the message that may be very important. Considering the context of a passage, of course, also extends to the keeping of a verse within the logical and parochial confines in which we find it; the surrounding verses, chapters and letter as a whole are paramount when trying to determine what a particular passage means.

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, prayer. I do not mean that we should pray to God and ask for any divine revelation as what a particular passage means, for we have all the divine revelation we need in the Scriptures that we are discussing. We should pray for patience, for kindness, for meekness, for reverence, for an humble heart that will melt before the word of the Lord and change if the Scriptures make that necessary. I believe that we ought to pray for a heart that is willing to listen to the things that the Scriptures teach. Often times I have prayed to the Lord in the past asking for wisdom and guidance, but then I never read through the Bible to hear God's words. Which brings us to the final point of consideration: read.

Read, read and read some more. It is very tempting to get locked into a debate style discussion in which contradictions are merely thrown at each other for the sake of trying to prove onesself correct. It is also very tempting to run to literature or tracts that back up what one believes and simply throw that information into the discussion. I believe that this would violate the very nature of what we are trying to accomplish here. We are not trying to defeat the other person through the wisdom of our own words, through the might or forcefullness of our posts. Rather, we are trying to learn what God is telling us through the Scriptures, so we ought to read the Scriptures. Instead of pasting notes from a tract into the discussion (which is often times very tempting for me) we should study the book first, then the chapter and finally the passage which we are dealing with. We must read the word of God in order to really understand what the word of God says (Ephesians 3:4)!!!

W. J. Schroeder, I look forward to any comments that you may have to make concerning this post, and I apologize for the delay in my response. I will try to make posts in a more timely fashion in the future. I pray that you are doing well, and I pray for everyone who is willing to devote the time to read through the things that we discuss with one another. Everyone's interest in spiritual things is a great encouragement to me. Again, I look forward to hearing back from you :)

[Imblessed]

Nice Post. this w jay schroeder, im using my sisters name because i am at my mothers. Well i have posted ideas and seem to think it was not the way you actually want it done so we can start over or we can use some of the passages i mentioned. You start by either commmenting on a peticuliar passage i have mentioned or just start over. A discussion sounds better anyways. So dont hesitat to begin it how you wish.

[aggie03]

I just noticed that this was a post by you under your sister's name. I'm sorry that I wasn't paying more attention :(. I will have a response within a couple of days. Again, sorry for the delay!

[aggie03]

From the beginning of the Scriptures to the end of the Scriptures, I believe that there is a single theme that runs throughout: Man’s turning away from God and his need to turn back to the Holy One of Israel, the Lord of Hosts, Jehovah, Yahweh, the Almighty, I AM.

In order to understand this situation better, there are some things that we must first know about God. The Scriptures state that God wants all men to come to the knowledge of the Scriptures and to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4) and the he is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). When we combine these two things together we can come to the understanding that throughout time God has always made a way for those who were willing to seek after Him to be saved. For example, the people of Nineveh were not Israelites, yet God had mercy on them when they repented. Nebuchadnezzar was humbled by God and realized Jehovah alone was the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, God above all other gods. He was not an Israelite either.

What this shows me is that throughout all of time, God has given men a very simple concept that they must obey:

Deuteronomy 6:4-7 ASV

Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah: (5) and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. (6) And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be upon thy heart; (7) and thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

All men should love god with all of their hearts and, because of this love, they should seek after him in absolutely everything that they do. This means that when God has commanded something of them, they will do it because they love Jehovah. Jesus said that if the disciples loved Him, they would do what He said (John 14:21). This means that people who were alive during the time that the Old Testament was written but were not Israelites did not have to keep the law of Moses because it was not given to them. Nebuchadnezzar was not given the law, the people of Nineveh were not given the law – but the Israelites were given the law, so they were expected to keep it.

I believe that this is the very thing that Paul talks about Romans chapter 2:

Romans 2:11-16 ASV

for there is no respect of persons with God. (12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law; (13) for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: (14) (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; (15) in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); (16) in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.

There is now a law that is not given to a single nation, but one that is given to all men and all nations. Jesus commanded that the gospel be preached to all of the creation, meaning all men in every nation (Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19). Because this is now given to all men, all men are to follow this new law, which is called in the Scriptures the Law of Christ and the Royal Law (Galatians 6:2; James 2:8). Among the things that are also contained in this law are the things that the Apostles wrote, for Paul claims that he wrote the commandments of God (1 Corinthians 14:37).

2 Timothy 3:15 says, by implication, that we can come to the knowledge of this law by reading the Scriptures which are inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16). In other words, if we read the commandments of God that have been given to us by the apostles and holy prophets through the Lord Jesus Christ (Hebrews 1:2 and Hebrews 2:3), then we can come to know everything that we need in order to be saved – for faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ (Romans 10:17).

The first argument, then, that I would like to present based upon this material is that God has given us everything that we need in order to be saved based upon the things that we read in the Scriptures, for by reading the Scriptures we can hear the word of Christ and come to have a faith which will lead us unto salvation. I also believe that God wants everyone to do this very thing and therefore has given us writings that we are capable of understanding when we read (Ephesians 3:4). However, it becomes our choice whether or not we are willing to listen to the things that are written in the Scriptures or whether twist the commands of God to become something that they are not or something that better suits our own ears. Those that have the faith talked about in 2 Timothy 3 will be willing to do whatever God asks of them. Examples of people like this are those in Nineveh who repented in sackcloth and ashes, Abraham who believe God and then did the things God said, Rahab who by her faith hid the spies and Moses who by his faith no longer considered himself a son of Pharaoh.

While we continue to talk about things during our conversation we must always remember that without this faith it is impossible to please God, for we must believe that God is and that Jehovah will reward those who diligently seek after Him (Hebrews 11:6). We must also remember that by faith we establish the law (Romans 3:31). The one constant in all these things is our faith in God that comes by our hearing of His word (Romans 10:17).

I would like to apologize for this post taking so long to be made, but there was some confusion as to what was going on. From this point on, I will be more careful to pay attention to who is making posts. I look forward to hearing back from W. Jay Schroeder, and I pray that all who are reading this discussion will do so with open hearts and the faith that we can read about in the Scriptures. May God bless us all.

[Imblessed]

From the beginning of the Scriptures to the end of the Scriptures, I believe that there is a single theme that runs throughout: Man’s turning away from God and his need to turn back to the Holy One of Israel, the Lord of Hosts, Jehovah, Yahweh, the Almighty, I AM. I agree. Christ is the only way and only truth

In order to understand this situation better, there are some things that we must first know about God. The Scriptures state that God wants all men to come to the knowledge of the Scriptures and to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4) and the he is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). When we combine these two things together we can come to the understanding that throughout time God has always made a way for those who were willing to seek after Him to be saved. For example, the people of Nineveh were not Israelites, yet God had mercy on them when they repented. Nebuchadnezzar was humbled by God and realized Jehovah alone was the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, God above all other gods. He was not an Israelite either.

What this shows me is that throughout all of time, God has given men a very simple concept that they must obey: I agree in point. Though the truth is Christ not neccessaryly the scriptures, though i find no fault in them. Yes, what you are, does not count in Gods eye. Only what is in your heart counts.

Deuteronomy 6:4-7 ASV

Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah: (5) and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. (6) And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be upon thy heart; (7) and thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

All men should love god with all of their hearts and, because of this love, they should seek after him in absolutely everything that they do. This means that when God has commanded something of them, they will do it because they love Jehovah. Jesus said that if the disciples loved Him, they would do what He said (John 14:21). This means that people who were alive during the time that the Old Testament was written but were not Israelites did not have to keep the law of Moses because it was not given to them. Nebuchadnezzar was not given the law, the people of Nineveh were not given the law – but the Israelites were given the law, so they were expected to keep it. agree somewhat. It is impossible to do this, so to use it to suggest a command to be done for salvation is begging the issue. We should love God by living our lives in a way that is bleasing to him and honors him and shows Christ Spirit in us, BUT we could never be perfect. The law was given to reveal Christ as our salvation, nothing else. Hebrews speaks of this as does Romans. God used the isrealites to reveal himself to the world. they were to show his love. they failed and now through Christ we as Christians are to do this same thing through Him. Rom. 11.

I believe that this is the very thing that Paul talks about Romans chapter 2:

Romans 2:11-16 ASV

for there is no respect of persons with God. (12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law; (13) for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: (14) (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; (15) in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); (16) in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.

There is now a law that is not given to a single nation, but one that is given to all men and all nations. Jesus commanded that the gospel be preached to all of the creation, meaning all men in every nation (Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19). Because this is now given to all men, all men are to follow this new law, which is called in the Scriptures the Law of Christ and the Royal Law (Galatians 6:2; James 2:8). Among the things that are also contained in this law are the things that the Apostles wrote, for Paul claims that he wrote the commandments of God (1 Corinthians 14:37). [/Qoute] The one law given is to love thy neighbor and God. Which are not mentioned in matt. 28 or Mark 16:15, I do not think it was a command for everyone to go into all the nations with the gospel but just those he callls to do so. we all are given a ability by God to use in a way to share the gospel message which is Christ. That gift may be being a nurse, a truck driver, a teacher, ect. It is how you deal with life and how you live it in Christ or through Christ which people see and turn to God. 1 Cor. 14:37 is out of context with our discussion.

[Quote]2 Timothy 3:15 says, by implication, that we can come to the knowledge of this law by reading the Scriptures which are inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16). In other words, if we read the commandments of God that have been given to us by the apostles and holy prophets through the Lord Jesus Christ (Hebrews 1:2 and Hebrews 2:3), then we can come to know everything that we need in order to be saved – for faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ (Romans 10:17). The commandments of God are that we love one another and him and the most important to accept Christ as his son. John 6:29 is clear " The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." read verse32-40 also read 1 John 3:21-24. Notice the last words...andthis is how we know thathe lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.. How did he give it to use, by knowing our hearts when we accept his son. Ephesians 1:11-14.

The first argument, then, that I would like to present based upon this material is that God has given us everything that we need in order to be saved based upon the things that we read in the Scriptures, for by reading the Scriptures we can hear the word of Christ and come to have a faith which will lead us unto salvation. I also believe that God wants everyone to do this very thing and therefore has given us writings that we are capable of understanding when we read (Ephesians 3:4). However, it becomes our choice whether or not we are willing to listen to the things that are written in the Scriptures or whether twist the commands of God to become something that they are not or something that better suits our own ears. Those that have the faith talked about in 2 Timothy 3 will be willing to do whatever God asks of them. Examples of people like this are those in Nineveh who repented in sackcloth and ashes, Abraham who believe God and then did the things God said, Rahab who by her faith hid the spies and Moses who by his faith no longer considered himself a son of Pharaoh.

While we continue to talk about things during our conversation we must always remember that without this faith it is impossible to please God, for we must believe that God is and that Jehovah will reward those who diligently seek after Him (Hebrews 11:6). We must also remember that by faith we establish the law (Romans 3:31). The one constant in all these things is our faith in God that comes by our hearing of His word (Romans 10:17).

I would like to apologize for this post taking so long to be made, but there was some confusion as to what was going on. From this point on, I will be more careful to pay attention to who is making posts. I look forward to hearing back from W. Jay Schroeder, and I pray that all who are reading this discussion will do so with open hearts and the faith that we can read about in the Scriptures. May God bless us all. I believe the scriptures is not what saves us or the reading or understanding of them that does it but only God working on your heart can set you free. We can not truelly understand the words of the scripture before we are saved. ! Cor. 2:10-15. We can not truelly understand Gods will untill his son's Spirit dwells in use. Yes this comes from hearing of him and what he done for use, yet, we can not be obediant to his commmands unless the Spirit resides in us. So to suggest that to reseave salvation is by obeying a command of God is only foolishness to the unsaved. Now once we are saved we are to obey his commands. Being to love one another and to love Him with all your heart. NO need to apologize i to will be taking my time because i do not have the enternet at the moment so i can only do this at my mom and dads and i dont get there but maybe once a month, so no hurry. AND I WILL BE UNDER THE IMBLESSED NAME.

[aggie03]

I am going to continue our discussion by first answering some of the things that you have said and then be moving on :)

I agree. Christ is the only way and only truth[/font][/size]

We must not forget then the things that the Christ says or are taught abomut Christ in the Scriptures. Depending on how you intend the things you've just written I may or may not agree with you.

I agree in point. Though the truth is Christ not neccessaryly the scriptures, though i find no fault in them

Jesus says that the word of God is truth (John 17:17). This is obviously referring to the Scriptures as they are God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16). The full truth, everything that God wants us to know can be learned from reading the Scriptures which declare to us the whole counsel of God.

at you are, does not count in Gods eye. Only what is in your heart counts.

We must not however emphasize this to the point where we say that it doesn't matter what one does. Jesus teachs quite plainly that things we do and say reflect directly on our heart (Matthew 15:18). If therefore we do not do the thing which God has asked us to do, then there is a problem with our hearts.

agree somewhat. It is impossible to do this, so to use it to suggest a command to be done for salvation is begging the issue.

You believe that it is impossible to love God? If this is the case, then we may have other things to talk about before we can begin talkig about baptism :) I do not believe that God gives us commands that we are incapable of carrying out.

I do not believe that saying we ought love God with all of hearts and therefore do the things that He says is begging the question. Jesus Christ says the exact same thing:

John 14:15 ASV

If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.


We should love God by living our lives in a way that is bleasing to him and honors him and shows Christ Spirit in us, BUT we could never be perfect.

I believe that we could be perfect (complete) because we are born perfect (complete). There is nothing wrong with and there is no sin in us when we are born. If this was not true then Jesus would not have said that we ought to become like a child. Because we are born without sin and we have the freedom to make the right choice in every instance, it is possible that a man may live a life without sinning. This is the very thing that Jesus did when he came in the flesh. He lived a perfect life in a human body without sinning while suffering the same temptations that we suffer.

The problem is that we all make bad choices at one point in our life and break (make imperfect or incomplete) our lives through sin. This is what the Scriptures speak to when it says that all fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). There must be some station or some aspect to fall from in order for a fall to take place. When we sin we fall from fellowship with God and come under condemnation (Romans 6:23).

[Qoute] The one law given is to love thy neighbor and God. Which are not mentioned in matt. 28 or Mark 16:15, I do not think it was a command for everyone to go into all the nations with the gospel but just those he callls to do so. we all are given a ability by God to use in a way to share the gospel message which is Christ. That gift may be being a nurse, a truck driver, a teacher, ect. It is how you deal with life and how you live it in Christ or through Christ which people see and turn to God. 1 Cor. 14:37 is out of context with our discussion. [/quote]

Preaching the gospel is not limited to standing behind a pulpit and talking to a group of people who are already saved. Preaching the gospel also deals with taking the gospel to where it is needed, to those who are not saved. Part of this gospel is the Royal Law and the Law of Christ as noted in the previous post. There are more commandments given in the New Testament that must be followed than the ones that you have mentioned.

The things that you have mentioned are revealed by God as being the most important commands because it through those that all other things are carried out. This does not make everything else unnecessary, it just makes those two commands the bedrock for everything else.

The commandments of God are that we love one another and him and the most important to accept Christ as his son. John 6:29 is clear " The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." read verse32-40 also read 1 John 3:21-24.

Again, there are more commands than just those in the New Testament. To believe in the One that God sent is more than just the mere mental assent that He is the Christ. Is the devotion to Him that leads to obedience. Remember what Jesus those must do who really love Him: obey His commandments.

Notice the last words...andthis is how we know thathe lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.. How did he give it to use, by knowing our hearts when we accept his son. Ephesians 1:11-14.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make here. Would you mind rephrasing this?

I believe the scriptures is not what saves us or the reading or understanding of them that does it but only God working on your heart can set you free.

The Scriptures say that the gospel is the power unto salvation for the Jew first and also for the Greek (Romans 1:16). Paul says that when we read the things that he has written we can understand the things that were revealed to Paul (Ephesians 3:4). This means that when we read the Scriptures we can "hear" (understand) the gospel. When we hear the gospel, because it is the word of God, we can have faith (Romans 10:17). Without this faith it is impossible to please God or to be saved (Hebrews 11:6).

Please do not misunderstand any of these things, God is the one who ultimately saves through the working of His power when we are baptized (Colossians 2:12), but before any of those things can happen, the things mentioned above that cannot happen without the Scriptures must take place.

We can not truelly understand the words of the scripture before we are saved. ! Cor. 2:10-15.

I disagree with you 100% on this point. I believe that the verse you are using to support your point is taken out of context and deals with a different subject entirely (inspiration of the Scriptures).


We can not truelly understand Gods will untill his son's Spirit dwells in use.

You can understand completely the will of God? Perhaps you are not saying what it sounds like, but it makes me very nervous when people begin to make claims like this. From the things that I read in the New Testament, we can understand the things that are written in the Scriptures and the principles that are taught therein, but it does not give one the ability to completely comprehend the will of God.

Yes this comes from hearing of him and what he done for use, yet, we can not be obediant to his commmands unless the Spirit resides in us.

I disagree. The only way that one can be justly punished for a crime they committed is if they had a choice not to commit the crime. What you are saying leads to the conclusion that one would be justly punished for committing a crime when they had choice in the matter. This simply isn't so. God does not ask us to do things that we are not capable of doing.

So to suggest that to reseave salvation is by obeying a command of God is only foolishness to the unsaved. Now once we are saved we are to obey his commands.

I never said obeying a command saves us. God is the one who saves us. The question is: what has God said is necessary to do before He will save us?

Being to love one another and to love Him with all your heart.

Again, there are more commands than this in the New Testament. There are the bedrock for the rest, but not the only ones.

New Material:

With regard to new material, I am very tired at the moment and will be posting new material sometime within the next few days. You may feel free to respond to the things written above before then if you choose. That is one of the things that I like better about the discussion format we have chosen :)

I look forward to hearing back from you soon!

[Imblessed]

I am going to continue our discussion by first answering some of the things that you have said and then be moving on :)



We must not forget then the things that the Christ says or are taught abomut Christ in the Scriptures. Depending on how you intend the things you've just written I may or may not agree with you. Remember that what Cheist thaught is in the first four gospels. We may agree to disagree and may just see it in a different way but agree to the same idea.



Jesus says that the word of God is truth (John 17:17). This is obviously referring to the Scriptures as they are God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16). The full truth, everything that God wants us to know can be learned from reading the Scriptures which declare to us the whole counsel of God. I agree but only if the Spirit is within us and guiding us unto the understanding of it. We can learn things from God outside of scripture but they can NEVER contradict the scriptures. There are things which God reveals to just you or me which may not be in scripture, but again it must never contradict the scriptures.



We must not however emphasize this to the point where we say that it doesn't matter what one does. Jesus teachs quite plainly that things we do and say reflect directly on our heart (Matthew 15:18). If therefore we do not do the thing which God has asked us to do, then there is a problem with our hearts. If your heart is true to God then your actions will be as the same. But yes that is true. I would say what is in our hearts will reflect in our actions. your heart must be right first, then your actions will follow suit.



You believe that it is impossible to love God? If this is the case, then we may have other things to talk about before we can begin talkig about baptism :) I do not believe that God gives us commands that we are incapable of carrying out.

I do not believe that saying we ought love God with all of hearts and therefore do the things that He says is begging the question. Jesus Christ says the exact same thing:

John 14:15 ASV

If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments. No it is very hard not to love God. He does not, which is why a command to be water baptized before you can be saved is such a wrong ideal. That is not beggiing the question, the idea of doing a act to receive his forgivensess is. as i said his only will is for us to believe on his son. Once this is done the Holy Spirit baptism washes us clean and we can be born again (Titus 3:5) and live a new life through him. Notice in all of scripture when those words " my commands is said what follows. Not a list of ordances but the two given. Love thy neighbor and love God, that is the only two every given after this statement. The message is very simple
believe on his son, love thy neighbor and love God, how do we love God by beklieving on his son. That is all he ever in all of scripture EVER ask any one to do to begin a relationship with him.




I believe that we could be perfect (complete) because we are born perfect (complete). There is nothing wrong with and there is no sin in us when we are born. If this was not true then Jesus would not have said that we ought to become like a child. Because we are born without sin and we have the freedom to make the right choice in every instance, it is possible that a man may live a life without sinning. This is the very thing that Jesus did when he came in the flesh. He lived a perfect life in a human body without sinning while suffering the same temptations that we suffer. It would be very difficult to be perfect according to christs way, when even thoughts count. We are born in sin because we are in flesh and concieved by man(male) which carries this sin. Christ was conceived by the spirit which has no sin so he was born without sin in him.

The problem is that we all make bad choices at one point in our life and break (make imperfect or incomplete) our lives through sin. This is what the Scriptures speak to when it says that all fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). There must be some station or some aspect to fall from in order for a fall to take place. When we sin we fall from fellowship with God and come under condemnation (Romans 6:23). This can not be so because if i was to live a sinless life and yet reject Christ i am not saved. But since i am born in sin i must find Christ. It is when we understand what sin is or when we understand right from wrong, only God knows that point in your life.

[Qoute] The one law given is to love thy neighbor and God. Which are not mentioned in matt. 28 or Mark 16:15, I do not think it was a command for everyone to go into all the nations with the gospel but just those he callls to do so. we all are given a ability by God to use in a way to share the gospel message which is Christ. That gift may be being a nurse, a truck driver, a teacher, ect. It is how you deal with life and how you live it in Christ or through Christ which people see and turn to God. 1 Cor. 14:37 is out of context with our discussion. [/QUOTE] i agree, of course i wrote that so i should.

Preaching the gospel is not limited to standing behind a pulpit and talking to a group of people who are already saved. Preaching the gospel also deals with taking the gospel to where it is needed, to those who are not saved. Part of this gospel is the Royal Law and the Law of Christ as noted in the previous post. There are more commandments given in the New Testament that must be followed than the ones that you have mentioned. I agree it is not at all limited to that, as fact may be it is very little of that. Yes that may be so but it does not include water baptism or communion or all may do these two church ordances to any one else, it would not be needed to be done only by a ordained minister or pastor. That are a ton of so called commands given but thy are all on egual footing, there is not one that must be done to recieve salvation. Eccepting Christ i dont think is a command by GOd, but something he wishes us to do, Free will gives us the choice.

The things that you have mentioned are revealed by God as being the most important commands because it through those that all other things are carried out. This does not make everything else unnecessary, it just makes those two commands the bedrock for everything else. No the others are not unnecary obviously but they do not carry wieght as a need to receive salvation or lose it if they are not done, though most not done would make it hard to believe you were saved, but not being water baptized is not one of them.



Again, there are more commands than just those in the New Testament. To believe in the One that God sent is more than just the mere mental assent that He is the Christ. Is the devotion to Him that leads to obedience. Remember what Jesus those must do who really love Him: obey His commandments. there are the ten commandments which are always needed, but are someed up in the two given, why would he add to them when he cursed the Pharrasees when they added to them. Remember above that the only ones ever given when this statement is said are the two mentioned.



I don't understand what point you're trying to make here. Would you mind rephrasing this? It says in Ephesian 1:11 that he knows us and that we are saved by our hearts and that the Spirits dwelles in us. it was not by a act we did but a belief in his son and the receiveing of the holy Spirit as a result of that belief in Christ.



The Scriptures say that the gospel is the power unto salvation for the Jew first and also for the Greek (Romans 1:16). Paul says that when we read the things that he has written we can understand the things that were revealed to Paul (Ephesians 3:4). This means that when we read the Scriptures we can "hear" (understand) the gospel. When we hear the gospel, because it is the word of God, we can have faith (Romans 10:17). Without this faith it is impossible to please God or to be saved (Hebrews 11:6). yes the gospel is Christ and what he did not the words that speak of this. Most people could not read in his day so to say this is silly, to believe what is read to you or them and believeing it in your heart is what saved them. If you can read it thats fine but you must believe it in your heart christ died for you and rose again. This Faith is believing in his Sons death and ressurection, even though we did not see it, is what saves, how we get the info about it is not important. I'm by know means saying the scriptures are not needed because that is WAY wrong. the scriptures are very very important.

Please do not misunderstand any of these things, God is the one who ultimately saves through the working of His power when we are baptized (Colossians 2:12), but before any of those things can happen, the things mentioned above that cannot happen without the Scriptures must take place. See there you go saying God saves yet we have a part of the process by being water baptized. NO where in scripture does it say that at all. Collosians 2:12 speaks of legalism and here you are doing that. Buried in christ through baptism is the Holy Spirit as in Rom 6. Read rom 8 we died with him by or through the Spirit just as the Spirit was with him at his death and ressurection. It is purly spiritual. you are putting to much on the scriptures when the Spirit is who wrote the scriptures and helps us understand the scriptures. Spirit first then scripture.



I disagree with you 100% on this point. I believe that the verse you are using to support your point is taken out of context and deals with a different subject entirely (inspiration of the Scriptures). Read 1 cor, 2:6-16 more carfully. It says we know nothing of God except through the Spirit. verse 11 "......Even so NO ONE knows the things of God except the Spirit of God." Can be more clear. how is it out of context. verse 13 " ...... but which the HOly Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual." If the scriptures are of God they are of the Spirit and are spiritual things, so we must have the Spirit in us to understand spiritual things.




You can understand completely the will of God? Perhaps you are not saying what it sounds like, but it makes me very nervous when people begin to make claims like this. From the things that I read in the New Testament, we can understand the things that are written in the Scriptures and the principles that are taught therein, but it does not give one the ability to completely comprehend the will of God. the will of God in your life is not found in Scripture persay, only through yor relationship with him through the spirit can you know his will for your life. The will or work of God is this to believe in his son whom he sent. John 6:29, how do you get water baptism involved with this. if all scripture is true then this is true with out any strings attachted that we must find else where in scripture. He does not speak in riddle or half truths.



I disagree. The only way that one can be justly punished for a crime they committed is if they had a choice not to commit the crime. What you are saying leads to the conclusion that one would be justly punished for committing a crime when they had choice in the matter. This simply isn't so. God does not ask us to do things that we are not capable of doing. i think i answer something of this question above. besides i think you worded it wrong so its hard to understand what your saying.



I never said obeying a command saves us. God is the one who saves us. The question is: what has God said is necessary to do before He will save us? John 3:16 is what he said is necessary. john 6:29, rom 10:9. read above where you say saved by God through baptism, your saying working of his power WHEN we are baptized, you are suggesting he will not work in us to save us untill we are water baptized. is that what you are saying. Is works in us from birth to save us untill our hearts are hardened and thare is no hope for us.



Again, there are more commands than this in the New Testament. There are the bedrock for the rest, but not the only ones. They sum up all the others, for when you do these two the rest will follow. but the discussion is about whether water baptism is essential to receive salvation or essential to prove you are saved or such.

New Material:

With regard to new material, I am very tired at the moment and will be posting new material sometime within the next few days. You may feel free to respond to the things written above before then if you choose. That is one of the things that I like better about the discussion format we have chosen :)

I look forward to hearing back from you soon! I wish i had more time for this but the little i do is fun and reguvinating. I look forward to the new material.

[aggie03]

Sorry I have been out for a while. I will edit this post with new material some time in the next couple days :) Thank you everyone for your patience.:blush:

[aggie03]

Well, as this is following a discussion format more than a formal debate format, this post is going to be fairly short. First I wanted to thank everyone for being patient with me. It's hard to work three jobs and carry on a discussion :).

Secondly, I would like to focus on a single comment that you made in your last reply. You said that all God has ever asked anyone to do is believe on Jesus. Without leaving the chapter of Acts 2, please explain the following:

1. When the Jews ask Peter what they had to do in order to be saved, why didn't he say all they have to do is believe (Acts 2:38)?

2. Why did Peter tell them that they had to repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins (Acts 2:38)?

3. What does Peter say that baptism is for (Acts 2:38)?

4. Were the Jews added to the church before or after they were baptized (Acts 2:41)?

I look forward to your answers and our continued discussion :)

[Browneyes84]

Water baptism was the sign of the new covenant-- early Christians practiced this even before the Bible was canonized. Jesus himself was baptized-- why should we reject water baptism as necessary for salvation when Jesus believed in it? or perhaps, that isn't enough for us? then if it isn't enough, why should we believe or read the OT, seeing that Jesus believed in it?

[Stinker]

Water baptism was the sign of the new covenant-- early Christians practiced this even before the Bible was canonized. Jesus himself was baptized-- why should we reject water baptism as necessary for salvation when Jesus believed in it? or perhaps, that isn't enough for us? then if it isn't enough, why should we believe or read the OT, seeing that Jesus believed in it?

In the New Testament (even before Pentecost) when Jesus and His immediate disciples were water baptizing His converts in His name (or authority), John the Baptist was nearing the end of his ministry. Both Jesus and John the Baptist were water baptizing converts with the baptism of repentance unto the remission of sins. (Mt.3:11) & (Mk.1:4)

Some churches mistakenly think that Christ and His disciples water baptized converts with a baptism of remission of sins.....instead of a baptism of repentance.

[aggie03]

In the New Testament (even before Pentecost) when Jesus and His immediate disciples were water baptizing His converts in His name (or authority), John the Baptist was nearing the end of his ministry. Both Jesus and John the Baptist were water baptizing converts with the baptism of repentance unto the remission of sins. (Mt.3:11) & (Mk.1:4)

Some churches mistakenly think that Christ and His disciples water baptized converts with a baptism of remission of sins.....instead of a baptism of repentance.

Stinker, would you like to take over this discussion with me? I am arguing for the necessity of baptism. Would you care to take the opposite stance?

If you think that you would like to do so, I would ask that we follow a few rules to make the discussion easier for everyone to follow:

1. This is a discussion not a debate. We would be interested in learning more about the Bible, not proving ourselves to be correct.

2. posts should be kept short, like exchanges in a normal conversation so that it is easy to read and follow for others. This allows for faster exchange of posts and more frequent clarification.

3. We would agree to use a single translation of the Bible so that we are dealing with the same text all of the time. I like the ASV or the ESV, with preference given to the ESV.

4. Little or no Greek - the Bible was given to man in a common tongue so that everyone could understand it. English is my common tongue, so I don't believe I need to be a Greek scholar to understand what the Bible says.

5. Before you agree, you would have the right to offer suggestions or changes to this list of rules. If you agree, we can consider what you already posted as your first statement and I will reply to that :)

I look forward to hearing back from you!

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved;



Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins



1Peter 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you



I don't know what more need be said.

[Browneyes84]

Not to be a total party pooper, but this topic is under the forum labeled "denominational forum DEBATES"...

[The Cheat]

Jesus says that the word of God is truth (John 17:17). This is obviously referring to the Scriptures as they are God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16). The full truth, everything that God wants us to know can be learned from reading the Scriptures which declare to us the whole counsel of God.


Jesus is the Word. John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[The Cheat]

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved;



Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be, and wash away your sins


1Peter 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you



I don't know what more need be said.



Not by works, but by Grace are we saved. The Bible is speaking of Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Physical baptism (with water) is a declaration to others that we have made a commitment to Christ. Spiritual Baptism is what happens when we are saved. The reason Jesus (and John the Baptist) baptised people is because while Jesus was on Earth, the Holy Spirit did not baptize, because Jesus and appointed-by-God followers did. When Jesus left, He could not longer baptise people on Earth physically, so He sent the Holy Spirit (like He promised to in the beginning of Acts) to baptize, encourage, convict, and defend believers. Physical baptism is A GOOD THING, but is NOT necessary for salvation.

[The Cheat]

Water baptism was the sign of the new covenant-- early Christians practiced this even before the Bible was canonized. Jesus himself was baptized-- why should we reject water baptism as necessary for salvation when Jesus believed in it? or perhaps, that isn't enough for us? then if it isn't enough, why should we believe or read the OT, seeing that Jesus believed in it?

Jesus said, "the old order of things has passed away." Rev. 21:4b

Jesus was baptised with water to announce to the world that He was following His Father in Heaven, which is what physical baptism with water means.

Jesus did not get baptised to "save Himself", like I said, He is the Word, He is perfect, He doesn't need saved. Physical baptism is not necessary for salvation, just like deeds. Let me emphasize my point this way:

An old man who did not belong to Christ was in his deathbed. He couldn't get up or even speak. One day a pastor came into the room and greeted him, telling him all about salvation through Jesus. He told the dying man the Truth. THe man believed this in his heart, and when the pastor asked him if he would like to know how to accept the Truth, the man nodded weakly. The man prayed in his heart what the pastor told him, and the man died that night. Now this man had accepted Christ's offer. Did he go to Heaven with the Father for eternity, or to the pit of Hell?

Remember this before you answer: while Jesus was on the cross dying, one of the criminals next to him asked for Jesus' to remember him. Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with Me in paradise." Yet this criminal was not baptized while he believed, so if he had been baptized, he had only done half of what you believe is the way to salvation. So, did the man on his deathbed and the criminal go to Heaven with Christ? Is not God's Word law?

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved;

Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be, and wash away your sins

1Peter 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you



The Bible is speaking of Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Physical baptism (with water) is a declaration to others that we have made a commitment to Christ. .....
Physical baptism is A GOOD THING, but is NOT necessary for salvation.

Jesus Himself is the one who declared the necessity of Baptism. John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. "

Peter confirms this
1Pe 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you

What you contend is contrary to what the Apostles taught. It is clear enough just from the words of Christ Himself in the Holy Scripture that water Baptism is necessary. There is no doubt on this point.

The notion that water baptism is unnecessary did not even exist for more than sixteen centuries. The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved." Remember, all that was revealed by Christ to the Apostles has been taught ever since that time. If it's True, it ain't new; if it's new, it ain't True.

Grace and peace be with you.

Yours in Christ.

[The Cheat]

Baptism of Living Water and the Holy Spirit, not physical water.

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Baptism of Living Water and the Holy Spirit, not physical water.

Living water, in the idiom of the time, indicated running water. The many instances of water baptism in the bible clearly indicate that actual water baptism is what is meant. The words of Christ in the bible do not say running water, you are adding your own words to scripture.

This invention that it water doesn't really mean water is a new spin that is not consistant with the beliefs of the Apostles and the early Christians. The notion that water baptism is necessary was revealed by Christ to the Apostles has been taught ever since that time. Remember "If it's True, it ain't new; if it's new, it ain't True".

God bless.

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

while Jesus was on the cross dying, one of the criminals next to him asked for Jesus' to remember him. Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with Me in paradise." Yet this criminal was not baptized

Why do you say that Dismas baptized? You are making that up. Where in the bible does it say that he wasn't baptized?

[The Cheat]

He was a CRIMINAL. Do you really think he was? And YOU cut off the rest. Don't manipulate my words! I never dismissed it, but is there a record of it? Is there a really large chance that he was baptised and believed in Jesus' promise at the same time or even at all? DO NOT MANIPULATE MY SENTENCES FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSES! Doing so is PATHETIC and is OUTRAGEOUS. Quote me all you want, BUT QUOTE ALL OF IT!!!!!

Jesus said that He could give us water that would make us never thirst. Obviously not physical water, but Livng Water and the Spirit. Running water? So if I turn on my faucet and dump someone in it who believes they're suddenly saved? Wrong!

[The Cheat]

Where does it say HE WAS?

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Why do you say that Dismas baptized? You are making that up. Where in the bible does it say that he wasn't baptized?


Where does it say HE WAS?

Peace brother.

You made the statement that Dismas was not baptized; A statement that assumes facts not in evidence.
Is there some information on which you base this contention?

Yours in Christ.

[The Cheat]

"believe and be baptised" Obviously this criminal did not believe until he spoke to Jesus, even if he was baptised. If its a two-part saving grace, then he didn't perform it. And where do you get this Dismas? What are you talking about?

[The Cheat]

If I get baptised before I know Christ, it wouldn't count because I didn't mean it. That's how.

[aggie03]

This thread is a intended to be a discussion between Schroeder and myself. It seems as though both of us have been slack in keeping things going - but I believe that it was primarily my fault. I would ask that if anyone is interested in continuing this discussion, that we restart the discussion from the beginning.

If anyone is interested, please post your interest and I will get a new thread started over this topic. I am going to take the position that it is necessary to be baptized under the New Covenant in order for someone to be saved.

[Kepha]

"believe and be baptised" Obviously this criminal did not believe until he spoke to Jesus, even if he was baptised. If its a two-part saving grace, then he didn't perform it. And where do you get this Dismas? What are you talking about?

He was talking to adults who were beyond the age of reason. Since that is the case, THEN, you must believe first. I would say the same thing to any adult living today if they were not a Christian. "Believe and be Baptised"

[buck]

Baptism

A baptism is an IMMERSION. A person who has been baptized is a person who has been immersed in something, because that's what the word means.

Many have the idea that all baptisms are WATER baptisms, but this isn't true. In Matthew 3:11, John the Baptist speaks of THREE different baptisms in one verse. He mentions WATER baptism, HOLY GHOST baptism, and FIRE baptism. One gets you wet, one gets you into the body of Christ, and one gets you into Hell! There's more than one kind of baptism, so we need to avoid using the word too loosely.
A person is baptized by the Holy Ghost the very moment they receive Christ as Lord and Savior (I Cor. 12:13). This particular baptism is a SPIRITUAL baptism, and it should never be confused with WATER baptism (although it usually is). This spiritual baptism can be found in I Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:5, Romans 6:3-4, and Galatians 3:27. It is not a water baptism, for water baptism places no one into the body of Christ. A person is saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9). Paul said that Christ sent him not to baptize, but to preach the gospel in I Corinthians 1:17, and "the gospel" does NOT include water baptism (I Cor. 15:1-4). Does this mean that water baptism isn't important? No, it does not. Water baptism is very important, for it pictures the death, the burial, and the resurrection of Christ. I Peter 3:21 tells us that it is a "figure." Obedient Christians will submit to water baptism, but they should never confuse it with their salvation. Remember, the repentant thief was saved WITHOUT being baptized in water (Luk. 23:42-43), and the eunuch of Acts chapter eight wasn't permitted to be baptized until he first BELIEVED on Christ (Acts 8:37-38).