Benn Hinn on Dateline

[GreenEyedLady]

Did anyone see this last night?
Why in the world has the IRS let this man go?????
Its discusting what this man is doing to the poor and needy.

thoughts?
GEL

[SumTinWong]

Nah, I didn't know it was on, otherwise I would have not watched it in protest. I am not a fan of Benny in the least, but I dislike these "journalism" shows all the more. Everytime they have a discussion about jesus they bring out fringe people like John Dominic Crossan (one of the Jesus seminar folk and a professor of biblical studies at De Paul) instead of guys who are respected among the Christian community.

Anyway, I would believe half of what they say about Benny Hinn, but even at half this guy makes me mad.

[Iollain]

I didn't see it but i like Benny Hinn.

[ZiSunka]

I saw it when it was first broadcast a few years ago, and even my unchurched 16 year old deaf nephew could see the guy was a fraud. He kept asking us, "Do you believe this guy is for real?" and "Why doesn't somebody do something about him?"

[Iollain]

I was actually healed by God when Benny Hinn was talking to the tv audience. You know the 'there is a person who has...whatever...God is healing that'? I had an open sore on my back for about a year, i was scared to go to the doctor and i was waiting on the Lord to heal it. Anyways Benny Hinn said, 'there is someone out there with a sore on their back for a long time, they are afraid to go to the doctor, God is healing that now' i just knew he was talking about me. Within 4 days it dried up, healed and literally fell off. I don't know why an evangelist on tv was used to give me the word that God was healing me, but i presume it is because i cannot cast the healing off as 'well it just happened to heal'

[Andyman_1970]

Its discusting what this man is doing to the poor and needy.
thoughts?
GEL

GEL you and I don't agree on a whole lot of things on here, but on this one I'm gonna give you a bug :amen:

My "issue" with Mr. Hinn and the poor is not just those who he pursuades to give their money to him, but all the extravagant stuff he blows his money on that could be used to take care of the poor around him. Several times in the Gospel of Luke Jesus equates what you do with the material stuff you've been given with salvation/and or the person's eternal destination.

For me that kind of extravagant spending is the burr under my saddle not his miracles and healing.

[Iollain]

I don't know exactly what the guy does with his money,


but,

in January there were 7 million people in India who heard the Gospel:

http://www.indiasalvationcrusade.com/

[ZiSunka]

Nah, I didn't know it was on, otherwise I would have not watched it in protest. I am not a fan of Benny in the least, but I dislike these "journalism" shows all the more. Everytime they have a discussion about jesus they bring out fringe people like John Dominic Crossan (one of the Jesus seminar folk and a professor of biblical studies at De Paul) instead of guys who are respected among the Christian community.

Anyway, I would believe half of what they say about Benny Hinn, but even at half this guy makes me mad.

Mainstream Chrisitans don't create enough controversy to make the show interesting. Not enough conflict. They have to use people with completely opposite views to create tension so people will tune in to watch the fight.

[GreenEyedLady]

Well they did an update on his minstry and exposed his expenses on TV.
This poor boy who was almost blind was used as a stage prop for his ministry. He told the whole world that the boy was healed and told the whole world that he would support this boys education. He took money using this boys name. The family claims they never recieved a dime. This man spends at times $10,000 per night at a hotel room using the ministries money. Sick, just sick.


Here is a new reality show for americans to watch and enjoy!

http://datelinehollywood.com/archives/2004/09/06/televangelist-benny-hinn-to-host-last-faith-healer-standing/

“Last Faith Healer Standing.” The show, which will be hosted by popular televangelist Benny Hinn, will feature ten up and coming faith healers as they live under one roof and compete against each other by using “the power of God” to heal people. “This is a great opportunity for me,” says Justin Mello, a 24 year old faith healer from Mobile, Alabama. “I want to be the best faith healer in America. I can’t wait to get my hands on those cripples. Just you watch America. These hands can freakin’ heal!”


Hinn, who travels the world healing people at concert-like shows that charge as much as $150 per ticket, came up with the idea for the reality show.

“My profession is a very humble one. This isn’t about personal gain, it’s about healing people,” says Hinn while bathing in an African marble oversized bathtub at his luxurious estate in Miami, Florida. “We want to cure the maladies of those who suffer."

[SumTinWong]

I am not sure but I think that was a parody site GEL.

[GreenEyedLady]

I don't know exactly what the guy does with his money,


but,

in January there were 7 million people in India who heard the Gospel:

http://www.indiasalvationcrusade.com/

That would be a false gospel and a false Jesus.
This guy is a false preacher who is preaching a false Jesus and living a false life.
If people are putting thier faith in Benn Hinn, which is how he captures his audience, then they are not saved.

I need a trash can...............................
:sick: :sick:

[Andyman_1970]

in January there were 7 million people in India who heard the Gospel:

http://www.indiasalvationcrusade.com/

However with his vast wealth how many of those people did he feed, or provide clean water to, or give medicine to? James tells us that if all you do is (in this case) share the gospel and don't take care of these peoples needs what's the point..............

[Gold Dragon]

Benny Hinn is definitely a controversial figure. And the Word of Faith movement continually grows at a phenomenal rate.

Hearing Yonggi-Cho speak in person, I was able to gain a little more respect for the movement which I stilll strongly disagree with in many respects. Sometimes I see these fringe Christian movements as indications where the Holy Spirit is trying tell us we've gone too far in one direction. Of course these movements then proceed to go too far in the other direction. I'm reminded of the reformation, puritan, restorationist, pentecostal, fundamentalist and adventists movements that have all impacted Christianity in some way over the last several centuries. What is Holy Spirit trying to tell us with the Word-of-Faith movement if anything? I know most think there is nothing to be learned from something they consider to be false teaching. But maybe there is something to be learned from them?

In no way am I trying to defend Benny Hinn's actions or the Word-of-Faith movement in general. I'm just trying to get us to look at it from a different perspective and use what many perceive as a negative to turn it into a positive. Maybe I'll just get tomatoes in return. :)

[Iollain]

That would be a false gospel and a false Jesus.
This guy is a false preacher who is preaching a false Jesus and living a false life.
If people are putting thier faith in Benn Hinn, which is how he captures his audience, then they are not saved.

I need a trash can...............................
:sick: :sick:

GEL, Hinn gives ALL the Glory to God, he does not preach himself at all.

[Iollain]

However with his vast wealth how many of those people did he feed, or provide clean water to, or give medicine to? James tells us that if all you do is (in this case) share the gospel and don't take care of these peoples needs what's the point..............


Dude, i have no idea what else the ministry does, i'm not a Benny Hinn fanatic. Perhaps that is the sin he is dealing with in his life, having too much money at his fingertips, he is a human.

[Iollain]

I don't see Hinn as a word of faith, i see him as someone who preaches the Gospel, and God shows up to do some healings.

[Lockheed]

I don't know exactly what the guy does with his money,


but,

in January there were 7 million people in India who heard the Gospel:

Please explain for us what the "Gospel" is, and how and where Hinn teaches it. I've not once heard the Gospel, as proclaimed in Scripture, stated by Hinn. I've heard a lot of other things, not found in Scripture, said by Hinn.

I'd like to be wrong...

[Iollain]

I've never heard Hinn go against Scripture in all the times i watched him.

[Lockheed]

"Go against Scripture"? Benny Hinn weaves Scripture however he wants, making it say whatever he chooses. Again, I'd like to know what "Gospel" he preaches.

[Iollain]

Benny Hinn teaches the same Gospel as I suspect you do.

[SumTinWong]

"He [Jesus] who is righteous by choice said, 'The only way I can stop sin is by Me becoming it. I can't just stop it by letting it touch Me; I and it must become one.' Hear this! He who is the nature of God became the nature of Satan where He became sin!" Benny Hinn (TBN, 12/1/90).

Can anyone spot the three, main theological problems with this statement?

[Lockheed]

1.) Christ took on the "nature of Satan"? Whoa!? Christ is fully man/fully God, He is not an angel in anyway. In taking on humanity He did not lose His divinity.

2.) Christ became a curse for us, He took our sins "upon Himself" and yet was never, never, tainted by sin. He paid our price, remaining the spotless lamb, just as we take on His righteousness, yet being sinners still.

3.) Christ was righteous by nature and by action. Being fully God, Christ is righteous and Holy, and yet as a man He obeyed God's Law perfectly.

[Iollain]

I know Benny should stick to the simple Gospel and not get into trying to explain stuff, he sounds like some of the people in my Sunday School class. I've heard something he said that was brought up Pentecostal forum here at CF, that he later took back.


This is from the Benny Hinn site:





How to Receive Jesus Christ into Your Life

Are you searching for answers to life’s most troubling questions?

In the next few moments, you can find forgiveness, a personal relationship with God, peace, freedom from guilt, wisdom, and the Father’s plan for your life.

What are the steps for you to take to discover these vital answers?

Step 1—Understand that God’s desire for you is life, abundant and eternal.

The Bible declares: "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly " (John 10:10).

Giving you abundant life required the supreme sacrifice: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life " (John 3:16).

God desires fellowship and companionship with you. What a wonderful gift the Father has given, yet if God gave His own Son to provide an abundant and everlasting life, why don’t more people have what He has designed for us to receive? It is a question answered by this sobering realization.


Step 2—Realize that you are separated from God.

There is a gap between God and mankind. He has provided a way for us to receive an abundant and eternal life, but people throughout the ages have made selfish choices to disobey God Almighty. These choices continue to cause separation from the Father.

God’s Word shows us that the result of sin is death. He says in His Word: "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death " (Proverbs 14:12).

And God also said, "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear“ ( Isaiah 59:2).

Paul the apostle states in Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”

And in Romans 6:23 we read: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Every human was created with the ability and need to know God and fellowship with Him. Augustine, a minister who lived during the fourth and fifth centuries, called this longing in each of us “that God-shaped vacuum.”

Every day we hear of people who are rich, famous, achievers, star athletes—people who seem to have the best life can offer—yet they try to fill that empty void in their lives with “things.” They even try good works, morality, and religion. Yet they remain empty, for only God, through His Son, can fill that emptiness.


Step 3—Accept the fact that God has provided only one solution to sin and separation from Himself.

Jesus Christ, His Son, is the only way to God. Only He can reconcile us to God the Father. Mankind may seek other solutions and worship other gods, but Jesus Christ, alone, died on the Cross for our sins and rose in triumph over the grave and eternal death. He paid the penalty for our sin and bridged the gap between God and mankind.

The Bible explains: "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us ” (Romans 5:8).

We are also told, "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God ” (1 Peter 3:18).

There is only one way provided: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” ( 1 Timothy 2:5).

For in John 14:6 we read, “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

God Almighty has provided the only way. Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sin and rebellion against God by dying on the cross, shedding His blood, and rising from the dead to justify and reconcile you back to God the Father.


Step 4—Receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

You can be brought back to God, and your relationship with Him can be restored by trusting in Christ alone to save your life from destruction. What an incredible exchange: Your worst for God’s best!

This step happens by asking Jesus Christ to take away your sin and to come into your heart to be your Lord and Savior.

God’s Word is very clear: "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me " (Revelation 3:20).

And the Bible tells us, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Romans 10:9)

Is there any good reason why you cannot receive Jesus Christ into your heart right now?

Are you willing to let go of your burdens and sins?

Are you willing to turn away and repent from your sins?

Are you willing to receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior now?


Step 5—Pray to receive Jesus Christ into your life.

At this moment you can pray the most important prayer of your life by simply saying:

Dear Lord Jesus, I believe You are the Son of God. I believe You came to earth 2,000 years ago. I believe you died for me on the cross and shed Your blood for my salvation. I believe you rose from the dead and ascended on high. I believe You are coming back again to earth. Dear Jesus, I am a sinner. Forgive my sin. Cleanse me now with Your precious blood. Come into my heart. Save my soul right now. I give you my life. I receive You now as my Savior, my Lord, and my God. I am Yours forever, and I will serve You and follow You the rest of my days. From this moment on, I belong to You only. I no longer belong to this world, nor to the enemy of my soul. I belong to You, and I am born again. Amen!

By praying this prayer, confessing your sins, and receiving Jesus Christ into your heart, God has given you the right to become His forgiven child. The Bible gives you this assurance: "But as many as received him, to them he gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them who believe on his name" (John 1:12).

If you have just received Jesus Christ into your life, we want to rejoice with you. Click here to send us your salvation praise report.

[SumTinWong]

Good job Lockheed :)

[Andyman_1970]

Dude, i have no idea what else the ministry does, i'm not a Benny Hinn fanatic. Perhaps that is the sin he is dealing with in his life, having too much money at his fingertips, he is a human.

Iollain, that was not meant as a direct attack on you, or even Mr. Hinn, he knows alot more about where his ministries money goes than I do - and if he has misused it he will answer to God for it, not us.

That said I do not question or judge how God healed you. I do however wonder about these extravagant TV pastors (not just Mr. Hinn) who have their own jets and such. With all the hunger and sickness in the world our job as Christians is to be His hands and feet to these people in a real way not just a "hey I'll pray for you" when we have it in our power and ability to physically help the poor and marginalized around us. Essentially we are to be God's crisis response team here on earth............IMO we don't need multi million dollar TV studios to accomplish that............again IMO.

Proverbs 21:13 "If you won't help the poor, don't expect to be heard when you cry out for help."

[Iollain]

If it were not for tv evangelists, i bet i would be Wiccan right now.

[Lockheed]

This is just a copy/paste of the 'four spiritual laws' kinda stuff... and I disagree with the placement of Step 1 & 2. Step 2 should be step 1. See, yes God loves "the world" and sent His Son to redeem it, but God says He HATES the sinner too. (Psa 5:5) God's is angry with sinners EVERY day.

Step 3—Accept the fact that God has provided only one solution to sin and separation from Himself.

Actually the solution to sin is punishment through death and hell. Not "separation". Why are we so hesitant to talk about hell?

He paid the penalty for our sin and bridged the gap between God and mankind.

No, Christ didn't "bridge the gap" making it possible for you to walk to God. He supernaturaly transfers His people from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light through His work, and His work alone. Christ didn't make us saveable, He SAVES.

Step 4—Receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

Apart from the fact that Rev 3:20 is NOT an evangelistic passage... No one seeks after God, no one is righteous! It is God who "receives us" into His kingdom. We are to repent, acknowledge we're sinners and trust in Christ. This idea that "sinner's prayer = salvation" is unbiblical.

Now, as to my original question, please quote Hinn, not his website.

[Lockheed]

If it were not for tv evangelists, i bet i would be Wiccan right now.

<Sigh> :scratch: We've yet to determine what it is you believe... a lot of people like you listen to the likes of Hinn, Copeland and the like.

I mean no offense by this, its just that Hinn teaches another gospel and they lure people into false assurance based on a false Gospel.

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Doesn't the Bible warn that false teachers will come after the Apostles who will be able to show signs and wonders? I do not believe that we can any longer judge a person's theology and teaching through miracles. We must look past these signs and wonders and ask ourselves, is this another Gospel or is it the one that Paul and the other Apostles preached? (Galatians 1:8).

[Lockheed]

Doesn't the Bible warn that false teachers will come after the Apostles who will be able to show signs and wonders? I do not believe that we can any longer judge a person's theology and teaching through miracles. We must look past these signs and wonders and ask ourselves, is this another Gospel or is it the one that Paul and the other Apostles preached? (Galatians 1:8).

Amen and amen.

[SumTinWong]

<Sigh> :scratch: We've yet to determine what it is you believe... a lot of people like you listen to the likes of Hinn, Copeland and the like.

I mean no offense by this, its just that Hinn teaches another gospel and they lure people into false assurance based on a false Gospel.
Whoa Lockheed hold on a minute my friend. Two things:

1. You haven't been here long enough to figure out what any one person believes. I can vouch that Iollain loves God with passion based on her posts over the last eyar that i have witnessed.

2. I agree that Hinn teaches another gospel, but the first person who reached me was Kenneth Copeland. The Holy Spirit in me led me away from that, but it was Kenneth Copeland that I listened to first.

[Lockheed]

Good to hear that God led you away from Copeland... as he now teaches some crazy stuff. As I said to Iollain, we've yet to determine what she believes. If one is so defensive of someone like Hinn, it is perhaps a sign that they're lacking in discernment... My parents are in the same boat and I was raised in the Charismatic movement.

That's why I ask questions like "What is the Gospel" and "What is it you've been saved from", it helps us clarifiy the Bible's position in contrast to folks like Hinn.

I mean no offense to Iollain, or to you, I simply want to determine who says/believes what.

[Iollain]

<Sigh> :scratch: We've yet to determine what it is you believe... a lot of people like you listen to the likes of Hinn, Copeland and the like.

I mean no offense by this, its just that Hinn teaches another gospel and they lure people into false assurance based on a false Gospel.

Nope, i rarely listen to Hinn and i have not watched Copeland more than a time or two. I mostly read my bible and go to church. I believe that Jesus died on a cross for my sins, and His blood washes away sin, i have faith in that. I have a hope that one day i'll be as He is, risen to eternal life. By the Grace of God.

[ZiSunka]

I don't always agree with everything Iollain says (but I agree with most of it), but I have NO doubts about her salvation and love for God. She inspires me often with her faith.

[SumTinWong]

Amen LL, and Iollain, keep the faith girl.

[Iollain]

:cry: Thanks you guys! :)

If anyone agreed with everything that i ramble on about, i'd probably be worried myself about them. :D

[Gold Dragon]

:cry: Thanks you guys! :)

If anyone agreed with everything that i ramble on about, i'd probably be worried myself about them. :D

:D

Iollian, I would vouch for you being orthodox in your theological positions, from what you've shared with us so far, despite our run-ins in the past. :thumbsup:

[GreenEyedLady]

I just do not think its right to sit there on TV and tell the world that he is going to take care of this boy, and then not do it.

Do you know that not one single miricle or healing from the Benny Hinn ministry has ever been documented as a miricle? There is no guidlines that they follow to prove these are in fact real healings, but Hinn can tell the world that its true.
I see all these people spending $150 to attend one of his "Crusades" that are cripples and just wishing and hoping that they are healed. its sad to see that, really sad. We are not called to live off of poor peoples desperations, we are called to preach the gospel into the world.
Iollian, No offense twords you. I just think his ministry is bogus as can be.
GEL

[Lockheed]

Yet God can, and does, sometimes use "donkeys" to get His message across. But that doesn't mean He always does it, and that we should follow the "donkey".

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Yet God can, and does, sometimes use "donkeys" to get His message across. But that doesn't mean He always does it, and that we should follow the "donkey".

Well put, I was thinking something like that myself.

Also, mine and Lockheed's negative comments are not, I believe, meant to be personal attacks agaisnt Iollain or any other true believer. More like it is a warning that signs and wonders must not be the means of judging a teacher's doctrine, but how it stands against the Bible. A perverse person should not be followed and considered orthodox due to miracles. I was thinking on the greatnes of God that He does, ironically, use false ministers for His ultimate purpose of bringing His sheep into the flock. I think that is a wonderful thing.

[Diane_Windsor]

With the exception of Billy Graham, I am highly skeptical of televangelists such as Benny Hinn. That is the legacy of Swaggart and Bakker, and I don't generally trust them.

Diane
:)

[2Timothy2]

Maybe I'll just get tomatoes in return. :)

http://www1.christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=31721


:D

I honestly believe God wants us to get back to what the Bible says, rather than following what men, traditions, or various theological constructs say. I've found an appalling amount of Biblical illiteracy, from those who have been in church most of their lives. If we don't know the truth well, then half-truths will sound plausible.

I have a site bookmarked that has some of what Hinn has said in the past. If what is on this site it true, he is not a minister of God's word. However, I don't have the resources to check out each quote, and you know how trustworthy something is on the net. :doh:But he has shown himself to be a false prophet, that much I've heard myself.

[Sword-In-Hand]

Matthew 7:21, 21"Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"

What Benny Hinn does with these "miracles" means very little because of the above verse. Doing the will of the Father is more important than prophesizing or healing.

Also, just to be picky, but I wish someone would explain to Mr. Hinn that the hymn "How Great Thou Art" was not written about him. It makes me sick to here him come out to that song with his hands lifted up. He reminds me of a professional wrestler honestly.

I don't follow Hinn or any other televangelist for that matter, but I really don't agree with what I see from him.

[Iollain]

:D
Iollian, I would vouch for you being orthodox in your theological positions, from what you've shared with us so far, despite our run-ins in the past. :thumbsup:

Thanks Gold Dragon :hug:

[Iollain]

Iollian, No offense twords you. I just think his ministry is bogus as can be.
GEL

No offence taken, i know Hinn is very controversal.

[Iollain]

Well put, I was thinking something like that myself.

Also, mine and Lockheed's negative comments are not, I believe, meant to be personal attacks agaisnt Iollain or any other true believer. More like it is a warning that signs and wonders must not be the means of judging a teacher's doctrine, but how it stands against the Bible. A perverse person should not be followed and considered orthodox due to miracles. I was thinking on the greatnes of God that He does, ironically, use false ministers for His ultimate purpose of bringing His sheep into the flock. I think that is a wonderful thing.

I know for a fact that i mention Hinn and i will get some strong posts ;) i didn't walk into this thread blinded to that fact. I know it's not a personal attack. I'm just not totally convinced that Hinn is not working for God dispite his bad rep, is all. I don't follow him, i don't even turn on the tv to watch him on purpose, my idea of tv watching is channel surfing and not very often i run into anything i will watch anyways. Every time i do watch Hinn i have looked for faults in what he says.

[Iollain]

This is just a copy/paste of the 'four spiritual laws' kinda stuff... and I disagree with the placement of Step 1 & 2. Step 2 should be step 1. See, yes God loves "the world" and sent His Son to redeem it, but God says He HATES the sinner too. (Psa 5:5) God's is angry with sinners EVERY day.



Actually the solution to sin is punishment through death and hell. Not "separation". Why are we so hesitant to talk about hell?



No, Christ didn't "bridge the gap" making it possible for you to walk to God. He supernaturaly transfers His people from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light through His work, and His work alone. Christ didn't make us saveable, He SAVES.



Apart from the fact that Rev 3:20 is NOT an evangelistic passage... No one seeks after God, no one is righteous! It is God who "receives us" into His kingdom. We are to repent, acknowledge we're sinners and trust in Christ. This idea that "sinner's prayer = salvation" is unbiblical.

Now, as to my original question, please quote Hinn, not his website.

You are a very picky feller Lockhead. :)

[Lockheed]

Iollain,

You are a very picky feller Lockhead.

I must be. Knowing how easy it was for the churches of the first century to drift away from the Apostle's teaching, I am intently concerned for the churches of this century and the people therein. False teaching doesn't usually announce its falsehood with spotlights and the like, it usually comes masquereding as something trustworthy.

This is why the Galatians were "so easily" drawn away from the simple Gospel that Paul taught them into legalism, and why the author of Hebrews warns us all of the potential for "drift". These subtle differences in the the message of the Gospel is how men want to twist the message to have broader appeal or to be less offensive. Yet unless we preach the Gospel message in its full strength and full offensiveness, we are disobedient to Him we call our Lord.

Thus it is not only semantics when people change "hell" to separation and start evangelistic messages with "God loves you", it is really man telling God that His message isn't good enough and telling the sinner that there is some 'redeeming quality' in them.

The Bible says it clearly, God is angry with sinners all the time and will soon send His Son to judge this world with vengence and wrath, the only escape from this wrath to come is through faith in Christ.

God is not "knocking on the door" of people's hearts, that verse in Rev 3 is so misused. No instead God stands in judgment of the world and its sin, ready to punish every form of unrighteousness with the fires of hell. This, not "God loves you" is the motivation for repentance. God loves His sheep, God loves His church, God loves His 'elect' but those enemies of His, God hates. Praise God that He saves us, while we were yet enemies because of His Son, Jesus and supernaturally transfers us from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.

As I said, Christ didn't "bridge the gap". He grabbed us by the hand and pulled us across, for left to our own devices we would never.

It is not because of something we did, some decision we made but because of God's grace toward us... de-merited favor. Favor we not only didn't deserve but did everything in rebellion to prove we weren't worthy of.

This is the marvelous message of the Gospel, the good news of salvation. That God stooped so low as to send His Son to mingle with us lowly, murderous rebels and save us while we were yet sinners.

[Iollain]

Lockheed,
But consider that God is Love. I was drawn to Jesus by His unconditional love He shows us at the cross, hell had not a lot to do with it.

I think God did 'bridge the gap', because if Jesus had not died for our sins, we would have fallen strait into the 'gap' which is hell. Though i do agree with your 'pulling us over' as well. You can also look at 'bridge the gap' as separation from God.

I think Rev 3:20 is talking about knocking on the door of people's hearts.

Rev 3:20

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Anyways, don't think i totally disagree with you.

[Andyman_1970]

Thus it is not only semantics when people change "hell" to separation and start evangelistic messages with "God loves you", it is really man telling God that His message isn't good enough and telling the sinner that there is some 'redeeming quality' in them. .

[note: this is a rabbit trail and as such might warrant a new thread]Didn’t Jesus say He came to save and not condemn? Where does Jesus present the Gospel as “you don’t want to go to Hell do you?” (which it seems, forgive me if I’m wrong, referring to)

The Bible says it clearly, God is angry with sinners all the time and will soon send His Son to judge this world with vengence and wrath, the only escape from this wrath to come is through faith in Christ.

So that whole “while we were yet sinners” deal that Paul told the Romans and John 3:16 “God so loves the world…….” don’t apply? And where does Jesus in the Gospel’s present the Gospel as “turn to me or else?” (which I agree is the end result)

Anyway, like I said, this is a rabbit trail and way off topic, so this might warrant a new thread………….

[ZiSunka]

With the exception of Billy Graham, I am highly skeptical of televangelists such as Benny Hinn. That is the legacy of Swaggart and Bakker, and I don't generally trust them.

Diane
:)

I'm highly skeptical of Billy Graham, too. I participated as a "counsellor" in one of his crusades, and millions of dollars were raised to bring the crusade to our town. Most of it was spent on salaries for his staff.

The attendence numbers were fudged (Each night there were about 5,000 to 8,000 people, but Graham's publicity claimed there were 30,000 to 35,000 each night), and the numbers of people "saved" were inflated (cards were received for 3,000 new believers, but Graham's PR staff reported something like 28,000 new believers). All but two of the people I talked to were already confessing Christians before the crusade. The other two just came to see what goes on at a crusade.

On follow up reports, only about 30 of the new believers were still going to church a year later. We raised $6 million to bring the crusade to town, and only 30 people made lasting commitments to Christ. Graham's people admit this is about average.

I can't help but feel if we had put even $3 million into a media campaign, it would have been a better investment than having a crusade. :(

[lismore]

I was actually healed by God when Benny Hinn was talking to the tv audience. You know the 'there is a person who has...whatever...God is healing that'? I had an open sore on my back for about a year, i was scared to go to the doctor and i was waiting on the Lord to heal it. Anyways Benny Hinn said, 'there is someone out there with a sore on their back for a long time, they are afraid to go to the doctor, God is healing that now' i just knew he was talking about me. Within 4 days it dried up, healed and literally fell off. I don't know why an evangelist on tv was used to give me the word that God was healing me, but i presume it is because i cannot cast the healing off as 'well it just happened to heal'

amen:clap:

[Gold Dragon]

I'm highly skeptical of Billy Graham, too. I participated as a "counsellor" in one of his crusades, and millions of dollars were raised to bring the crusade to our town. Most of it was spent on salaries for his staff.

The attendence numbers were fudged (Each night there were about 5,000 to 8,000 people, but Graham's publicity claimed there were 30,000 to 35,000 each night), and the numbers of people "saved" were inflated (cards were received for 3,000 new believers, but Graham's PR staff reported something like 28,000 new believers). All but two of the people I talked to were already confessing Christians before the crusade. The other two just came to see what goes on at a crusade.

On follow up reports, only about 30 of the new believers were still going to church a year later. We raised $6 million to bring the crusade to town, and only 30 people made lasting commitments to Christ. Graham's people admit this is about average.

I can't help but feel if we had put even $3 million into a media campaign, it would have been a better investment than having a crusade. :(

Thanks for that sharing lambslove. I'm curious. Was this near the end of Billy Graham's career?

I suspect the crusade model began to die down in effectiveness in the eighties but the crusade machine was still going full speed.

I do have several people in my church who made their first real commitment to Christ in a Billy Graham crusade, even if they were exposed to Christianity some time before. Many left the church for a period because of poor followup and discipleship, but eventually returned for one reason or another, thanks be to God.

[ZiSunka]

It was in the mid-90s.

I agree that the crusade-style of evangelism isn't effective anymore, especially when you consider the money that it takes to put one on.

I don't understand why Christians don't use the media more to spread the gospel. It's relatively cheap and easily accessible to the whole population. It would be a great way to send out the message, but we just don't use it. :scratch: There are some feel-good commercials touting one denom over others, but no one is using it at all to spead the gospel.

Why do you suppose that is?

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

It was in the mid-90s.

I agree that the crusade-style of evangelism isn't effective anymore, especially when you consider the money that it takes to put one on.

I don't understand why Christians don't use the media more to spread the gospel. It's relatively cheap and easily accessible to the whole population. It would be a great way to send out the message, but we just don't use it. :scratch: There are some feel-good commercials touting one denom over others, but no one is using it at all to spead the gospel.

Why do you suppose that is?
LOL!! Feel good commercials that talk about how nice a denom is. Isn't that the truth? There is no knowlege, there is only emotion.

Of course, you can go to the extreme like Family Radio and tell people not to attend church but to gather your family around the radio on Sunday mornings.... :eek:

[Gold Dragon]

I don't understand why Christians don't use the media more to spread the gospel. It's relatively cheap and easily accessible to the whole population. It would be a great way to send out the message, but we just don't use it. :scratch: There are some feel-good commercials touting one denom over others, but no one is using it at all to spead the gospel.

Commercials compound all the problems of crusades even more. The one-way short message that doesn't get any followup and isn't modeled by any person.

I have seen some pretty effective highway ads. One of them was from a RC convent of all places.

[ps139]

I was actually healed by God when Benny Hinn was talking to the tv audience. You know the 'there is a person who has...whatever...God is healing that'? I had an open sore on my back for about a year, i was scared to go to the doctor and i was waiting on the Lord to heal it. Anyways Benny Hinn said, 'there is someone out there with a sore on their back for a long time, they are afraid to go to the doctor, God is healing that now' i just knew he was talking about me. Within 4 days it dried up, healed and literally fell off. I don't know why an evangelist on tv was used to give me the word that God was healing me, but i presume it is because i cannot cast the healing off as 'well it just happened to heal'
wow, that is amazing!!!!!!! I guess when the Holy Spirit wants to heal someone, there aint no stopping him!!! :)

[ZiSunka]

Commercials expound all the problems of crusades even more. The one-way short message that doesn't get any followup and isn't modeled by any person.

I have seen some pretty effective highway ads. One of them was from a RC convent of all places.

There are gigantic boatloads of people who have never heard any form of the Gospel. TV, radio and print ads are imperfect, but better than letting people go to hell. I got saved from listening to Christian radio, but Christian music radio, with its artificial sweetness, turns people off before they can even hear the good news. I'm talking about high-quality presentations of the gospel on non-Chrisitan stations in the form of advertising, and also in print in non-Christian publications. Sure, there might be obstacles, but its better to work to overcome those than to just let people burn.

[Gold Dragon]

There are gigantic boatloads of people who have never heard any form of the Gospel. TV, radio and print ads are imperfect, but better than letting people go to hell. I got saved from listening to Christian radio, but Christian music radio, with its artificial sweetness, turns people off before they can even hear the good news. I'm talking about high-quality presentations of the gospel on non-Chrisitan stations in the form of advertising, and also in print in non-Christian publications. Sure, there might be obstacles, but its better to work to overcome those than to just let people burn.

Agreed. I guess there are a couple of obstacles, both relating to money.

1) It takes money to buy advertising spots.

2) Advertising is associated with making sales and money. Christianity on TV and radio already have a negative stigma of being "after people's money".

I think it is great that there are good folks on radio and television making use of those media to reach the lost. The challenge is doing it well and doing it right.

[ZiSunka]

Agreed. I guess there are a couple of obstacles, both relating to money.

1) It takes money to buy advertising spots.

2) Advertising is associated with making sales and money. Christianity on TV and radio already have a negative stigma of being "after people's money".

I think it is great that there are good folks on radio and television making use of those media to reach the lost. The challenge is doing it well and doing it right.

Amen! But I think we as Christians ought to be using the media to its best advantage. We need to find money (come on, we all have a little bit of money to put to such an effort) and people (there are many Christians in the media industry) to make it work.

What happens when the world comes to its end and we are standing in front of the Lord and he asks why we didn't evangelize more, and we say, well, it's hard to get the word out, and he asks, why didn't use use the media, everyone got their message out on the media but you.

[Lockheed]

Lambslove...

Perhaps Paul and Peter went to their deaths with so few converts cause they had no marketing scheme?

[ZiSunka]

What? :scratch:

What are you talking about?

[9-iron]

:D You guys wouldn't do to well in the Spirit-Filled's Binny Hinn thread. I am all for pastors and evangelist to get some time off. Go stay at a nice resort for a few days ever so often. BUT A $10,417 A NIGHT HOTEL,, YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!

[arunma]

:D You guys wouldn't do to well in the Spirit-Filled's Binny Hinn thread. I am all for pastors and evangelist to get some time off. Go stay at a nice resort for a few days ever so often. BUT A $10,417 A NIGHT HOTEL,, YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!

You know what my pastor does with his time off? He writes books, and then gives them away for free! Let's see Benny do that.

Ugh, Benny Hinn sickens me. I could tell you guys an interesting story about why I hate his guts, if you want. I'd type it up right now, but I've got to run to the physics lab. So maybe later.