John 3:36 = Clarity

[SumTinWong]

John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." ESV (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/browse/)

One of my new favorite verses.

Whoever: The dictionary says this: "Whatever person or persons" . That means anyone.

Anyone who believes.

believes: pist-yoo'-o From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

So if anyone believes/trusts/has faith in/ the son

the Son: Jesus the Christ, quite obviously

If anyone believes/trusts/has faith in/ the son has

has: to have, i.e. to hold This is not a past tense or is it a future tense but it is an immediate tense.

Anyone believes/trusts/has faith in/ the son has/holds everlasting

eternal: without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be, everlasting

Anyone believes/trusts/has faith in/ the son has/holds eternal/everlasting life

life: life (literally or figuratively): - life (-time)

Anyone believes/trusts/has faith in/ the son has/holds eternal/everlasting life !!!

According to our Lord in verse 3:18 and according to jonny B in 3:36, if we believe, trust, have faith in Him we already have eternal life, it is ours.


Praise God!!!!

[ZiSunka]

Amen!

[RED that's ME]

Good post :angel:

[Lockheed]

"Whoever" doesn't nesessarily mean "anyone", it can mean "the person who...".

[Lockheed]

"Whoever" doesn't necessarily mean "anyone", it can mean "the person who...".

[Lockheed]

I chew double-mint gum :|

[BBAS 64]

"Whoever" doesn't necessarily mean "anyone", it can mean "the person who...".

Good Day, Lockheed

I agree there is no "whosoever" in the Greek.

(ALT) "The one believing [or, trusting] in the Son has eternal life, but the one refusing to believe the Son will not see {the} life, _but_ the wrath of God abides on him."

(ASV) He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

(ESV) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

(GB) Hee that beleeueth in the Sonne, hath euerlasting life, and hee that obeyeth not the Sonne, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

(GNT) o pisteuwn eiv ton uion exei zwhn aiwnion o de apeiqwn tw uiw ouk oyetai bthn zwhn all h orgh tou qeou menei ep auton

(HCSB) The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

(HOT)



(KJV+) He that believeth4100 on1519 the3588 Son5207 hath2192 everlasting166 life:2222 and1161 he that believeth544 not the3588 Son5207 shall not3756 see3700 life;2222 but235 the3588 wrath3709 of God2316 abideth3306 on1909 him.846

(KJVA) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

(NASB) "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who (58) does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

(RSVA) He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

(YLT) he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'



To be the "whosoever" one must be doing the "believing".

Peace to u,

Bill

[Matthan]

Just look at that beautiful verse! It is a clear promise from God. Read it! Believe it! Believe in Him. And, there is suddenly absolutely nothing that can ever prevent you from eternal happiness with God!

Nuff said!

Matthan

[Lockheed]

...there is suddenly absolutely nothing that can ever prevent you from eternal happiness with God!

Except man's sinful nature... God has to do something first. As Jesus said: "unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

[SumTinWong]

"Whoever" doesn't nesessarily mean "anyone", it can mean "the person who...".
Tell me please what the difference is

[Gold Dragon]

Tell me please what the difference is

If there was a word there suggesting anyone, it would challenge the precious ;) doctrine of Limited Atonement. It is important to Calvinists that not anyone can come to him, but only those God has chosen.

Fortunately, we don't know who God has chosen so in our minds, that is anyone.

[Iollain]

Amen GoldDragon.

[SumTinWong]

Thaks GD, I get where that was coming from now.

[SonOfThunder]

Uncle Bud, can you go onto explain the second half of that Scripture please. The obedience to me is important and I wonder how it is viewed?

thanks

James

[Lockheed]

Uncle Bud,

Some folks take the "whoever" in the verse to indicate that men are able to seek after God and save themselves by "choosing" Him.

----

GoldDragon,

Of those whom the Father desires to save and gives to the Son, how many will be saved?

[SumTinWong]

Uncle Bud, can you go onto explain the second half of that Scripture please. The obedience to me is important and I wonder how it is viewed?

thanks

James
John 3:36 "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects[/url] (Or “refuses to believe,” or “disobeys.”) the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath (joh3_notes.htm#369) remains[url="joh3_notes.htm#371"] on him. "

Hey buddy, long time :)

The first part of the text says the one who or whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. One may argue that this does not mean everybody, but the rest of the verse says "the one who rejects the Son", meaning to me anyway that some will be offered the Son, but will reject Him and remain in Gods wrath.

The word that is used here as rejects is the Greek word apeitheō
G544
ἀπειθέω
ap-i-theh'-o
From G545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely): - not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.

So it seems to me that by context this is a person who is willfully reject Jesus. Does that help?

[SumTinWong]

Uncle Bud,

Some folks take the "whoever" in the verse to indicate that men are able to seek after God and save themselves by "choosing" Him.
Really? How odd. These people, are they Christians? I have never known a Christian that felt he could save himself by choosing Christ. I do know some including myself that have let Christ save me, by my decision to believe on Him.

[Gold Dragon]

GoldDragon,

Of those whom the Father desires to save and gives to the Son, how many will be saved?

All of them. As humans, we are in no position to determine who they are since we don't know who the Father has predestined to save and who he hasn't. So it could be anyone to us.

[Gold Dragon]

John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." ESV (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/browse/)
...
According to our Lord, and Saviour Jesus the Christ, if we believe, trust, have faith in Him we already have eternal life, it is ours.

I just re-read the context of this verse and realized that it was John the Baptist who said this line and not Jesus. The red letters in your quote are a little deceptive.

SonofThunder, I believe Johnny B is referring to the wrath of God that is for all sinners. Johnny B is reiterating the gospel message that says believing in Jesus gives us eternal life to save us from the punishment our sins deserve. Those who do not believe remain outside of a state of grace and within a state of condemnation deserving of God's wrath.

As Uncle Bud stated, the greek word for "obey" is apeitheo (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=544) which has an element of belief and is translated as "believe" in some translations for this verse.

[SumTinWong]

Where is the egg on my face emoticon?

[SumTinWong]

I had actually meant to use:
John 3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Note to self. Do not post when sleepy. I had been reading and re-reading john, I guess they blurred.

[Lockheed]

I do know some including myself that have let Christ save me, by my decision to believe on Him

Unclebud...

How did someone "unable to please God" make a 'decision' for Christ?

[SumTinWong]

It wasn't hard really as I was not trying to please God when He found me.

I was obviously unable to please God so God offered His Son, and I accepted what He did as appropriation for what I did.

Does that help?

[Lockheed]

In 'accept(ing) what He did as appropriation for what (you) did' did you not please God?

If so, please explain how that is possible when Scripture states that apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit one cannot please God?

[SumTinWong]

In 'accept(ing) what He did as appropriation for what (you) did' did you not please God?
I hope I am understand that awful sentence structure of yours, but here it goes.

The answer is yes, this pleased God that I accepted what Jesus did and I could never do as appropriation for my sins. It would be awful for God to be displeased with me for accepting the provision He made for me wouldn't you say?

If so, please explain how that is possible when Scripture states that apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit one cannot please God?
How can the Holy Spirit abide in anyone that is a sinful being? He can't. So at some point when I accepted what Christ did, the Holy Spirit came in.

[Lockheed]

The answer is yes, this pleased God that I accepted what Jesus did and I could never do as appropriation for my sins. It would be awful for God to be displeased with me for accepting the provision He made for me wouldn't you say?

Pardon my silly sentences of prior post. :)

As an "enemy of God" (Rom 5:10) what made you want to accept what Jesus did for you?

Scripture states that you were "dead in your sins" and a "child of wrath even as the rest"... but then verses 4-6 of Ephesians 2 says:
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
It seems then, from Scripture, that while you were dead in your sins, God made you alive. At what point did you believe in God, before or after He made you alive?

If so, please explain how that is possible when Scripture states that apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit one cannot please God?

How can the Holy Spirit abide in anyone that is a sinful being? He can't. So at some point when I accepted what Christ did, the Holy Spirit came in.

Two points here.

In Romans 8:7-9 it explains that those who are in the flesh cannot please God, and the difference between those "in the flesh" and those "in the Spirit" is the indwelling Holy Spirit.
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him
Therefore, the person without the Spirit of God cannot please God, cannot subject itself to the law of God, is unable to do so.

How then is it that you, an enemy of God, without the Spirit indwelling you, were able to please God by having faith in His Son?

Let me see if this can help:
Eze 37:1
The hand of the LORD was upon me, and He brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones.
Dead bones cannot live, they're dead. As the prophet says in vs 3 "He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know.""

Yet God commands the prophet to prophesy (preach) to the bones...
5-6
Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.'"
God states that by putting "breath" in the dead bones they will come to life. In vs 14 God explains who the "breath" is.
14 "I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"
You might reply that this is a prophecy for Israel, and not relevant for the church (or individual believers). Yet v24 states "My servant David will be king over them", this is in reference to the coming Messiah and therefore is talking about the church as well. Keep in mind that this is just after Chapt 36 wherein the New Covenant is prophesied.

Based on these passages, is not Ephesians 2 similarly talking about a monergistic work of God whereby He places His Spirit into dead, dry, bones bringing them to life in Christ?

Did the dry bones do something to become alive, or did God do something to make them alive?

See, it seems to me that in your view, we do something and God responds. Thus we are the initiators of salvation and God is simply responding to our efforts. Yet Scripture indicates that we are unable to effect a change in our position of rebellion and emnity with God and therefore it is God who saves us through making us alive. Baptism is a perfect picture of this... the dead and buried coming to new life, being born again, "not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

[SumTinWong]

I will get to your post later, but just as a reference, I adore conversation with other people, hate being preached when in conversation.

[SumTinWong]

Pardon my silly sentences of prior post. :)
It is okay we got through it :)

As an "enemy of God" (Rom 5:10) what made you want to accept what Jesus did for you?
What was amazing is that I wasn't looking for God I was looking to die (John 8:24). I had been shown the sin in my life (John 16:8), and was terrified to keep going on. Grace came (Romans 5:15) and I was saved by my faith in Gods Son (Luke 7:50).

It seems then, from Scripture, that while you were dead in your sins, God made you alive. At what point did you believe in God, before or after He made you alive?
Both. I assented that there was a God (James 2:19), and I did accept his Son (John 10:38), but I put my trust in Him (2 Corinthians 10:7) more and more (1 Corinthians 1:7-9) as the days went on. I assume I was more alive the minute He became a part of me as I was reborn (John 3:3-8), but each day I began to realize how new I really was, and each day I believed on Him more. Through repentance (Romans 2:4) I learned obedience (Matthew 28:20), through obedience I learned what it means to trust God. The more I trust (Hebrews 2:13) God the more He blesses me.

In Romans 8:7-9 it explains that those who are in the flesh cannot please God, and the difference between those "in the flesh" and those "in the Spirit" is the indwelling Holy Spirit.
I don't mean to be sarcastic, but did you consider that might already be aware of all of this? Try to be a wee bit less condescending okay?

How then is it that you, an enemy of God, without the Spirit indwelling you, were able to please God by having faith in His Son?
It pleased God that I would accept His Son (Hebrews 11:6). At some point when I accepted what Christ did, the Holy Spirit came in and I was reborn of the Spirit (John 3:5).

Let me see if this can help:
Not meaning to be rude but you might want to ask somebody next time if they want or even think they need help before offering help.

See, it seems to me that in your view, we do something and God responds.
That is correct. Having faith is doing something (Habakkuk 2:4).

Thus we are the initiators of salvation and God is simply responding to our efforts.
That is incorrect. The initial response, the initial act was from God when He sent Himself to die for my sins on the cross (John 3:16-17). I had nothing to do with that (Romans 1:16). He started the ball rolling I just accepted what He did for me. I didn't save myself by accepting His act, He saved me (Titus 2:11).

Some will say if God died for all mans sins, then God must have failed because not all men are saved (John 16:8-9). Poppycock. God did not fail, man failed to recieve the Grace that God provided. He did all that anyone could have asked but they must accept it, believe in Him for themselves, to receive what was done for them, not by them.

Yet Scripture indicates that we are unable to effect a change in our position of rebellion and emnity with God and therefore it is God who saves us through making us alive.
John 3:16 "For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life."

Now I understand that you are of a different view than I and by being so, you look at things in a different light than I do. But to me, whosoever means anyone who.

Baptism is a perfect picture of this... the dead and buried coming to new life, being born again, "not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
Romans 10:12-13 "[No one] for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. The same Lord is Lord over all [of us] and He generously bestows His riches upon all who call upon Him [in faith]. For everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord [invoking Him as Lord] will be saved."

[Lockheed]

What was amazing is that I wasn't looking for God I was looking to die (John 8:24). I had been shown the sin in my life (John 16:8), and was terrified to keep going on. Grace came (Romans 5:15) and I was saved by my faith in Gods Son (Luke 7:50).

God's grace came... before you had faith. Saved by grace through faith. But the Scripture indicates that "God made us alive". I again return to the dry bones analogy, dry bones don't come alive of their own will and desire, just as the prophet suggests.

Both. I assented that there was a God (James 2:19), and I did accept his Son (John 10:38), but I put my trust in Him (2 Corinthians 10:7) more and more (1 Corinthians 1:7-9) as the days went on. I assume I was more alive the minute He became a part of me as I was reborn (John 3:3-8),

Still there's a problem here. You seem to be saying that you were reborn by your actions, or your faith, rather than the grace of God. I would propose to you that if you review the Scriptures I've posted and the exegesis I've provided you'll see that God was working to bring you to faith prior to your assent to His Son's Lordship. In fact, I would propose that your faith was, like the army of formerly-dry-bones, the result of God's work in you to make you alive and place His Spirit in you first.

Again, drawing from Romans 8, we have to acknowledge what is said in v9. Apart from the indwelling Spirit of God a person is in the flesh, and given the words of v7-8 "cannot please God".

...but each day I began to realize how new I really was, and each day I believed on Him more. Through repentance (Romans 2:4) I learned obedience (Matthew 28:20), through obedience I learned what it means to trust God. The more I trust (Hebrews 2:13) God the more He blesses me.

Consider that God blessed you even prior to you trusting in Him, in various ways. It was God's favor, de-merited by you, by which you came to faith in Him in the first place.

I don't mean to be sarcastic, but did you consider that might already be aware of all of this? Try to be a wee bit less condescending okay?

I'm attempting to discuss some seemingly advanced topics, specifically the so-called "ordo salutis" with you, I have no idea of your previous experience with these things, so if I'm repeating myself or going over things that are elementary, forgive me. I'm more used to speaking to people who have very limited knowledge of Scripture.

It pleased God that I would accept His Son (Hebrews 11:6). At some point when I accepted what Christ did, the Holy Spirit came in and I was reborn of the Spirit (John 3:5).

Therefore, it seems to be your position that you were born-again as a result of your faith, rather than being born-again unto faith. Is this correct?

You see God responding to your faith by birthing (eh?! is that the word?!) you?

Let me ask you one more question... what was it that made you believe but your neighbor not believe? Were you smarter or more spiritual prior?

Not meaning to be rude but you might want to ask somebody next time if they want or even think they need help before offering help.

This is a discussion board, we're here to discuss. When I said "help", I meant to "help you understand what I am saying".

See, it seems to me that in your view, we do something and God responds.
That is correct. Having faith is doing something (Habakkuk 2:4).

I see, so salvation is not a gift but a wage one earns for "doing something"?

Thus we are the initiators of salvation and God is simply responding to our efforts.
That is incorrect. The initial response, the initial act was from God when He sent Himself to die for my sins on the cross (John 3:16-17). I had nothing to do with that (Romans 1:16). He started the ball rolling I just accepted what He did for me. I didn't save myself by accepting His act, He saved me (Titus 2:11).

Some will say if God died for all mans sins, then God must have failed because not all men are saved (John 16:8-9). Poppycock. God did not fail, man failed to recieve the Grace that God provided. He did all that anyone could have asked but they must accept it, believe in Him for themselves, to receive what was done for them, not by them.

I see, so is it your position that God has enabled each and every man who ever lived to have faith in Him?

If so, please explain what caused you to have faith where someone else did not.

John 3:16 "For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life."

Now I understand that you are of a different view than I and by being so, you look at things in a different light than I do. But to me, whosoever means anyone who.

No, not really a different view on this verse. Yet I think the following verses are telling of the "anyone who", v18 states that the unbelieving are "judged already"... Therefore the "whoever" are those who believe, not potentially believe. Thus this one verse simply shows God's sending His Son to save those who would believe, not God's sending His Son to potentially save some who might believe. There is a difference in intent there.

I also want to point out that terms "greatly" and "dearly prized" are not in the text anywhere and are improper additions. The Greek therein actually means something closer to the following:

"For God loved the creation in this manner... ".

The "so" in the verse is not an expression of amount or quality, but an expression of intent. Yet time and again this is how the verse is read by well the meaning. It is simply improper to add words to the text of Scripture that the Scripture does not support.



Verses 18-21 go on to express this thusly:19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.



This should be familiar to us, as we've heard it in Romans 3, Eph 2 and in Eze 37, men are evil but God is good. Here's the universal statement, not that God is hoping to save some people that might, perhaps, hopefully be saved, but that God sent His Son to an evil world.




As Romans 3:23 states "all have sinned". Therefore v19 is about all of us.20"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."


Is it your position that prior to hearing the Gospel that you were not evil? If you agree that you were evil, what made you come to the light whereas others will not?21"But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."


If you came to the light, was it because you had the ability, or because God made you alive with Christ? Again let me draw from the rest of the book of John to show you what I'm saying.John 1:12-13

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Receiving Christ is how we become children of God (I'm sure we'd agree) but how does one who is a child of satan (and thus wrath, Eph 2:1-2) 'receive' that which is enemy of him? God tells us in v13: "...born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."




Just as chapter 3 explains: John 3:3

Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Prior to being born-again you could not even see the kingdom of God, much less 'accept it'. Back in chapt 1 it says that those who receive the kingdom of God are "...born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." Yet you seem to be saying that you chose Christ, of your own will. Yet verse one says it was not "of the will of man".1 Cor 2:14

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Unless your heart is first opened to God and the Spirit comes to make you born-again, you cannot believe in God.Acts 16:14

A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

Lydia was a convert to Judiasm and heard Paul's preaching with the other women at that time, but it was Lyida who the Lord opened the heart of.


If Lydia was neutral to God, or even pro-Gospel prior to that, why did God need to "open her heart".

I again point you to Eze 36 wherein the supernatural heart transplant occurs and tell you that this exchange must first occur by the grace of God for the rest of the chapter to be fulfilled. That is, you must be born-again to see the kingdom of God.

Romans 8 shows this clearly, and I sincerely ask you to read thru verses 1-9 and see if what I am saying is not true: without the Spirit of God indwelling one cannot obey God, nor please God, just as it is written.

Thus the Spirit of God came to reside in you, in some manner, prior to your believing in Christ.

Romans 10:12-13 "[No one] for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. The same Lord is Lord over all [of us] and He generously bestows His riches upon all who call upon Him [in faith]. For everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord [invoking Him as Lord] will be saved."
Yes, not only Jews were saved but people of the Gentile nations as well, just as it is written, He purchased people from every tribe , nation and tongue.

[SumTinWong]

He purchased teh freedom for everyone, but not everyone will accept that freedom, or the one who gave it to them. Sad really.

[growingupinhim]

He purchased teh freedom for everyone, but not everyone will accept that freedom, or the one who gave it to them. Sad really.
so true..plus believe really mean to be live..those who abide live and have thier being in jesus!

[SumTinWong]

Amen :)

[BBAS 64]

He purchased teh freedom for everyone, but not everyone will accept that freedom, or the one who gave it to them. Sad really.

Good Day, Uncle Bud

If He set them free they are "Free indeed".

Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Indeed:

ontōs

Thayer Definition:

1) truly, in reality, in point of fact, as opp. to what is pretended, fictitious, false, conjectural

2) that which is truly etc., that which is indeed

Part of Speech: adverb

They are truly free, their freedom is not some subjective state but is objectively fact on the basis that He sets them free.

Is a blind man only blind because he accepts the fact of his blindness, are the deaf only deaf because they accept the fact that they are in such a state?

Peace to u,

Bill

[MbiaJc]

Uncle Bud,

Some folks take the "whoever" in the verse to indicate that men are able to seek after God and save themselves by "choosing" Him.

----

GoldDragon,

Of those whom the Father desires to save and gives to the Son, how many will be saved?

You cannot put the ones God desires to save and the ones He gives to His Son in the same basket, because they won't fit. It is God's desire to save all.

[MbiaJc]

[ QUOTE=Lockheed]Uncle Bud,

Some folks take the "whoever" in the verse to indicate that men are able to seek after God and save themselves by "choosing" Him.


----

Some will take it to mean something it does not regardless how you say it.

[MbiaJc]

Really? How odd. These people, are they Christians? I have never known a Christian that felt he could save himself by choosing Christ. I do know some including myself that have let Christ save me, by my decision to believe on Him.


Amen, Amen and Amen :thumbsup:

[MbiaJc]

Unclebud...

How did someone "unable to please God" make a 'decision' for Christ?


Lock you misunderstand we did not please God and btw can never please God. However praise be to GOd His Son can. It not anything we did or do it is what His Son did and does that keeps us. All we do is believe on His Son or believe on His Son name and confess that we do.

Go to Exedous and read about the spies Moses sent into the promise land to search it out. That is the same way we come to the kingdom of God if when we search out the land we have confidence we can posses it. If one desides there are giants living there and one cannot overtake them and take the land then one would never enter or be allowed to enter the promise land.

May God bless

[Lockheed]

Lock you misunderstand we did not please God and btw can never please God. However praise be to GOd His Son can. It not anything we did or do it is what His Son did and does that keeps us. All we do is believe on His Son or believe on His Son name and confess that we do.

Go to Exedous and read about the spies Moses sent into the promise land to search it out. That is the same way we come to the kingdom of God if when we search out the land we have confidence we can posses it. If one desides there are giants living there and one cannot overtake them and take the land then one would never enter or be allowed to enter the promise land.

Not an answer.

Romans 8 says that those without the Spirit of God indwelling them cannot please God... but you say they can. Please explain.

[MbiaJc]

Lock you misunderstand we did not please God and btw can never please God. However praise be to GOd His Son can. It not anything we did or do it is what His Son did and does that keeps us. All we do is believe on His Son or believe on His Son name and confess that we do.

Go to Exedous and read about the spies Moses sent into the promise land to search it out. That is the same way we come to the kingdom of God if when we search out the land we have confidence we can posses it. If one desides there are giants living there and one cannot overtake them and take the land then one would never enter or be allowed to enter the promise land.



Not an answer.

Romans 8 says that those without the Spirit of God indwelling them cannot please God... but you say they can. Please explain.


We cannot carry on a debate if you not going to read my post.


And where do you come of with this "not an answer" just because you don't like it don't get sarcastic. Because you haven't even read it.

[MbiaJc]

Lockheed

And btw why did you not respond to the other post?

[BBAS 64]

You cannot put the ones God desires to save and the ones He gives to His Son in the same basket, because they won't fit. It is God's desire to save all.

Good day, MbiaJc

The scripture is quite clear, the only ones raised up are those that are given to the Son by the hand of the Father.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.


If as you posit "It is God's desire to save all" This is clearly an assertion on your part. a couple of questions:

1. What does God lack in order to forfill his desire?
2. Does God spend all of eterity "unhappy" because his desires are un forfilled?
3. What would stop God from getting what he wants?
4. How hard does God work to see his desires forfilled?

Peace to u,

Bill

[SumTinWong]

1. What does God lack in order to forfill his desire?
God does not lack anything as His sacrafice was perfect. Let's put it this way. As a father you have two children. It is your desire to raise your children in a certain manner. You provide clothing, a chance at a great education, and bring them up in a church where they can hear the good news of the Gospel. You even set up a college fund so that when ready your kids can get the best education. It is your will that they grow up to be succesful adults and you have provided every opportunity for this.

One of your kids rebels from the start and doesn't want to have anything to do with your plan, and runs away from home, gets into trouble and lands in jail.

Now it was your will and desire to provide every advantage for these kids, but the one kid would not go along with what you willed.

God has provided every opportunity for every person to become a part of the kingdom. That is His will. But just like the rebellious kid, not everyone will follow the program.

2. Does God spend all of eterity "unhappy" because his desires are un forfilled?
Depends on if you think God is a half empty of half full God. I am sure God will be glad for the ones who have accepted this gift, and be sad for those who would not, the same way the father would be if one kid ruined his life like explained above.

3. What would stop God from getting what he wants?
Man not turning to Him for salvation.

4. How hard does God work to see his desires forfilled?
Well let's see, He came down to this planet in the form of His own creation, lived a righteous life, was ridiculed by everyone who pretended to know God, taught about love, healed people, warned people of judgement, was scourged, beaten, hung on a cross, died, and was raised on the third day. Seems to me He worked pretty hard...

[Lockheed]

God does not lack anything as His sacrafice was perfect. Let's put it this way. As a father you have two children. It is your desire to raise your children in a certain manner. You provide clothing, a chance at a great education, and bring them up in a church where they can hear the good news of the Gospel. You even set up a college fund so that when ready your kids can get the best education. It is your will that they grow up to be succesful adults and you have provided every opportunity for this.

What if instead your servants (since one is not a child of God unless they're adopted into His family), from the moment they came out of the womb rebelled against you, fought against you and denied your authority. They were your enemies in word and deed from the first day to the last.

Yet you continued to provide for these miserable loathing servants... food, clothing, shelter and life for them, and yet they still rebelled.

This is a much more accurate picture of humanity in the eyes of God.

Finally these servants murdered your only Son who you sent as a final messenger. But, in so doing, your Son CHOSE to pay for the misdeeds of those who would believe in Him, those whom God chose to save out of all those rebellious ones, not because they deserved it, but because God is gracious.

See the problem here? In your story the kids are neutral toward the Father, yet in the Bible we are "enemies" of God and are "hostile" toward Him.

One of your kids rebels from the start and doesn't want to have anything to do with your plan, and runs away from home, gets into trouble and lands in jail.

All of them do. ;)

Now it was your will and desire to provide every advantage for these kids, but the one kid would not go along with what you willed.

Just one, Adam, who represented us all.

God has provided every opportunity for every person to become a part of the kingdom.

God has provided every opportunity to explain His attributes and expectations, aka the Law.

That is His will. But just like the rebellious kid, not everyone will follow the program.
Like the rebellious kid we are all "children of wrath" just like the rest.

Depends on if you think God is a half empty of half full God. I am sure God will be glad for the ones who have accepted this gift, and be sad for those who would not, the same way the father would be if one kid ruined his life like explained above.

But the God of the Bible didn't just offer the kid a chance out of jail. He took uncaring, rebellious servants and adopted them into His family, not because of something they did, but because He was gracious.

Man not turning to Him for salvation.

"No one seeks for God."


Well let's see, He came down to this planet in the form of His own creation, lived a righteous life, was ridiculed by everyone who pretended to know God, taught about love, healed people, warned people of judgement, was scourged, beaten, hung on a cross, died, and was raised on the third day. Seems to me He worked pretty hard...

Not according to your beliefs, since God cannot save those whom He wants to save...