Christian Goths

[adamas]

Im just wondering about how my fellow baptists and christians think/feel about Christian Goths. Now, i know to most people this may sound like an oxymoron but that is because of the deffinition most people have of goth due to the misrepresentation of goths by the media and by false goth wannabes. There are christians who are also goths. . .i consider myself one of them. but i just wanna know how you all think about it.

[SumTinWong]

No.

goth (
n.
A style of rock music that often evokes bleak, lugubrious imagery.
A performer or follower of this style of music.
What has a Christian to be bleak about?

[adamas]

great example of how the media (or some other source) has done a bad job at portraying goth. goths arenot all bleak and sad and depressed and hohum. (and the dictionary deff of goth isn't such a great one either:) )
plus, goth isn't realy a particular type of music. there are many goths who listen to christian rock, 80's rock, oldies, celtic, and even classical, as well as many other types of music. PS the marilyn manson stuff:sick: (yuck *gag **puke*) isn't goth at all neither is most of the "death metal" stuff ppl usually associate with goth

[SumTinWong]

Pardon me, but why ask for my opinion then correct it for me? If you wanted to tell us that Goth is good sometimes, and correct misconceptions that people may or may not have, why not state your own case and let it ride?

I will stick with the dictionary definition.

[adamas]

sorry, just trying to shed light, not correct your oppinion, i respect your oppinion. and im glad you posted something. it just so happened that your post was the first "no" post so i was just useing it as an example. sorry if pole takeing and the analisis thereof upset you but look on the bright side. . .you can post another "no" opinion/post and i wont say anything about it (unless you flame me).

[adamas]

oh and one thing a Christian has to be bleak about is the fact that most of the world is going to die and go to hell and that everyday we live in a world of death and destruction ruled by sin.

[SumTinWong]

Not upset adamas just curious why you posted a poll on the matter, when you obvioulsy were looking to correct a false impression of how you dress, and the the Goth style in general :) It is all good, have a great night!

[adamas]

oh, ok

[SumTinWong]

oh and one thing a Christian has to be bleak about is the fact that most of the world is going to die and go to hell and that everyday we live in a world of death and destruction ruled by sin.
Well that is one way of looking at it, but let's say we all run around in dark clothing and with a bleak outlook, or sad looks all the time on our faces. What would that show the "damned" world about what He has done for us, or in us? It is for the "damned" that the future is bleak, not the saved.

The Christian has the responsibilty to set the example of life not mourn with the dead.

[lucypevensie]

I voted yes. Though I still wonder why a Christian would want to have that appearance. I don't know what "real goth" is. All I know is what I see. And what I see is dark, spooky, sad, and unapproachable. Perhaps I am just an old fuddy duddy...but...it's what I perceive. I know God looks at the heart, not just the outer appearance. But you have to admit, the outer appearance is pretty indicative of what's in the heart, eh? I think so.

[TwinCrier]

2 Corinthians 6:1-154 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

[Crazy Liz]

No.

goth (
n.
A style of rock music that often evokes bleak, lugubrious imagery.
A performer or follower of this style of music.
What has a Christian to be bleak about?

What dictionary did that come from, UB?

[BT]

Nope

[Crazy Liz]

I suppose everyone has seen this. It's been posted here on CF before, but the search feature doesn't seem to work well enough for me to find it and link to it, so here it is again:

This was an actual letter sent out by the St. Mary’s Church.


If Your Child is a Gothic, Reform Through the Lord!
Listed below are some warning signs to indicate if your child may have gone astray from the Lord.


Gothic (or goth) is a very obscure and often dangerous culture that young teenagers are prone to participating in. The gothic culture leads young, susceptible minds into an imagined world of evil, darkness, and violence. Please seek immediate attention through counselling, prayer, and parental guidance to rid your child of Satan’s temptations if five or more of the following are applicable to your child:


Frequently wears black clothing.

Wears band and/or rock t-shirts.

Wears excessive black eye makeup, lipstick or nailpolish.

Wears any odd, silver jewelry or symbols. Some of these include: reversed crosses, pentagrams, pentacles, ankhs or various other Satanic worshipping symbols.

Shows an interest in piercings or tattoos.

Listens to gothic or any other anti-social genres of music. (Marilyn Manson claims to be the anti-Christ, and publicly speaks against the Lord. Please discard any such albums IMMEDIATELY.)

Associates with other people that dress, act or speak eccentrically.

Shows a declining interest in wholesome activities, such as: the Bible, prayer, church or sports.

Shows an increasing interest in death, vampires, magic, the occult, witchcraft or anything else that involves Satan.

Takes drugs.

Drinks alcohol.

Is suicidal and/or depressed.

Cuts, burns or partakes in any other method of self-mutilation. (This is a Satanic ritual that uses pain to detract from the light of God and His love. Please seek immediate attention for this at your local mental health center.)

Complains of boredom.

Sleeps too excessively or too little.

Is excessively awake during the night.

Dislikes sunlight or any other form of light. (This pertains to vampires promoting the idea that His light is of no use.)

Demands an unusual amount of privacy.

Spends large amounts of time alone.

Requests time alone and quietness. (This is so that your chid may speak to evil sprits through meditation.)

Insists on spending time with friends while unaccompanied by an adult.

Disregards authority figures; teachers, priests, nuns and elders are but a few examples of this.

Misbehaves at school.

Misbehaves at home.

Eats excessively or too little.

Eats goth-related foods. Count Dracula cereal is an example of this.

Drinks blood or expresses an interest in drinking blood. (Vampires believe this is how to attain Satan. This act is very dangerous and should be stopped immediately.)

Watches cable television or any other corrupted media sources. (Ask your local church for proper programs that your child may watch.)

Plays videos games that contains violence or role-playing nature.

Uses the internet excessively and frequently makes time for the computer.

Makes Satanic symbols and/or violently shakes head to music.

Dances to music in a provocative or sexual manner.

Is homosexual and/or bisexual.

Pursues dangerous cult religions. Such include: Satanism, Scientology, Philosophy, Paganism, Wicca, Hinduism and Buddhism.

Wears pins, stickers or anything else that contains these various phrases: “I’m so gothic, I’m dead”, “woe is me”, “I’m a goth”.

Claims to be a goth.



If five or more of these apply to your child, please intervene immediately. The gothic culture is dangerous and Satan thrives within it. If any of these problems persist, enlist your child into your local mental health center.


~ St. Mary’s Catholic Church

Given this definition, both my kids are Christian goths, even though neither of them is a teenager. (They are 20 and 12.)

[Iollain]

I voted yes, but i have mixed feelings on that. I can see how a Christian kid could be a Goth. My oldest Daughter says about half the kids at school are gay, the girls wear the very least that they can, like their **** showing when they go up the stairs with mini skirts, most of the kids are very rude and she has been plowed over by guys and rammed up against the wall once by a guy, it is not unusual for guys to punch a girl at the school....and it goes on and on. I can see a Christian kid feeling very Goth under todays circumstances. My Daughter is kind of Goth, put usually dresses more of a punk way, she is slowly coming out of it. I don't really mind as she is a good Christian kid, however i believe she was targeted by those jerks because of the Gothy/punk look. So i really don't agree with it anymore. I'm kind of a Gothy person myself though:) (no i don't go around my age looking Gothy, though i do like to wear romantic type Goth clothes once in awhile)

[SumTinWong]

What dictionary did that come from, UB?

CL :)

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dict-e

[Bingle]

Technically a person is saved because of what Christ has done for them not because of how they act so you could vote yes to the pole and be scriptural. But in the broader sense, I refuse to believe that a person with the spirit of God, the Light of the World living in him, having a home in heaven and sins forgiven would continue in such a terrible state so I voted no.

Comon u goths. Get saved properly.

[BT]

Technically a person is saved because of what Christ has done for them not because of how they act so you could vote yes to the pole and be scriptural. But in the broader sense, I refuse to believe that a person with the spirit of God, the Light of the World living in him, having a home in heaven and sins forgiven would continue in such a terrible state so I voted no.

Comon u goths. Get saved properly.

Great post. Too bad I'm all repped out

[Iollain]

That sounds great Bingle, but teens usually have a bit of something different than what adults want on their brain. My Daughter will bring me two diffenent kinds of (lets say) boots for me to look at in the mall, ask me which one i would choose and then she will pick the one i didn't choose. Now i won't tell her which one i like better and it drives her crazy. hehehe

[Bingle]

Iollian I'm 19 years old myself


No excuses for rebellion even if we are at this horrible age lol.

[Iollain]

Iollian I'm 19 years old myself


No excuses for rebellion even if we are at this horrible age lol.

Well you are what i would call an 'old soul'. :thumbsup:

[Sword-In-Hand]

^_^

That letter from St. Mary's Church is one of the funniest things I've ever read! According to that letter, I'm a goth...but really I'm not. Ooh and stay away from Count Dracula cereal, might get possessed.:eek:

I can't vote yes or no. Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart, however, after salvation we are new transformed creatures in Christ, so why would someone want to mirror something so worldly?

I believe that actions communicate Christ better than words. So, in my humble opinion, could a lost person look at a person living or dressing in the gothic style and see Christ?

What are goths origins? If its something dark and evil then why be associated with the lifestyle? I know very little about goths, but I'm going to have to agree with 1st Thessalonians. If it looks evil, stay away from it.

[aReformedPatriot]

Yes, but I think the mindset of the goth is misled.

Why anyone would like to be 'clothed in darkness' is beyond me. The author of the thread never defined what "goth" is to him. At least, I didnt read it.

All my friends in high school who all dressed like this, all of which are not Christian passed out of this phase. All of them who were 'goth' were suicidal.

My 'punk' friencs phased out of this as well. I am afraid I dont get my own generation why they need such things, to "find themselves" maybe, I suppose I'll never know.

May Our Lord Bless You, and Welcome.

Bro. Mark

[Crazy Liz]

CL :)

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dict-e

Funny, here's what I found on that site:

*
Definition:
*

[n] *one of the Teutonic people who invaded the Roman Empire in the 3rd to 5th centuries

[n] *a crude uncouth ill-bred person lacking culture or refinement

*
Synonyms:
*
barbarian, boor, churl, peasant, tike, tyke

*

*
See Also:
*
disagreeable person, Ostrogoth, Teuton, unpleasant person, Visigoth


*

*

Webster's 1913 Dictionary

*

*
Definition:
*
\Goth\, n. [L. Gothi, pl.; cf. Gr. ?]
1. (Ethnol.) One of an ancient Teutonic race, who dwelt
between the Elbe and the Vistula in the early part of the
Christian era, and who overran and took an important part
in subverting the Roman empire.

Note: Under the reign of Valens, they took possession of
Dacia (the modern Transylvania and the adjoining
regions), and came to be known as Ostrogoths and
Visigoths, or East and West Goths; the former
inhabiting countries on the Black Sea up to the Danube,
and the latter on this river generally. Some of them
took possession of the province of Moesia, and hence
were called Moesogoths. Others, who made their way to
Scandinavia, at a time unknown to history, are
sometimes styled Suiogoths.

2. One who is rude or uncivilized; a barbarian; a rude,
ignorant person. --Chesterfield.

[RED that's ME]

adamas I think a person can dress goth and be a christian but not a christian living in accordance with God's Word.
Those verses that was previously posted we are to be "light" to the world not gloom & doom.
God is hope, God gives hope...We as christian have hope and we need to share with others. http://www.christianguitar.org/forums/images/smilies/yep.gif
I'm a teen and most of the goth teens I talk/work with listens to hard music that drags them down. Many of them have bouts of depression and IMO it's because they live in a "gloom and doom" type mindset. Many of them are self-harmers. Many have/are dealing with some type of abuse in their life also.
You can study the effects that colors have on people. Different colors can produce different effects. When you think of black you think of dark, drab, depression, death not hope.
You can study the effects that different kinds of music also has on a person. This is something real and does effect people in good/bad ways.
Some of the side effects of being goth not only effects the person but it also effects their testimony and witness for Christ. It can be a hindrance to reaching other people for Christ.
You can go to the extreme in any type of clothing and mindset. I acknowledge not every guy that wears a suit & tie with a short haircut and sits on the front row of a church is spiritually where he should be either.
There is a passage in the NT that deals with people back in Bible times who rented clothes/jewerly to go to church to impress. God doesn't look out the outside but he does the inside. People can't see the inward as God can and judge others right or wrong from the outside. We are to be salt/light to the world.
http://www.choiceshirts.com/images/A5/87/A5877B-md.jpg

"I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me. And heard my cry. He also brought me up out of a horrible pit. Out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my steps. He has put a new song in my mouth-Praise to our God." Psalm 40:1-3

[seebs]

I don't see why not. I actually think gothy stuff can be a lot of fun.

Keep in mind that some Christians are depressed, and gothic poetry and music may speak to that part of their experience.

[costlygrace]

adamas I think a person can dress goth and be a christian but not a christian living in accordance with God's Word.
Those verses that was previously posted we are to be "light" to the world not gloom & doom.
God is hope, God gives hope...We as christian have hope and we need to share with others. http://www.christianguitar.org/forums/images/smilies/yep.gif
I'm a teen and most of the goth teens I talk/work with listens to hard music that drags them down. Many of them have bouts of depression and IMO it's because they live in a "gloom and doom" type mindset. Many of them are self-harmers. Many have/are dealing with some type of abuse in their life also.
You can study the effects that colors have on people. Different colors can produce different effects. When you think of black you think of dark, drab, depression, death not hope.
You can study the effects that different kinds of music also has on a person. This is something real and does effect people in good/bad ways.
Some of the side effects of being goth not only effects the person but it also effects their testimony and witness for Christ. It can be a hindrance to reaching other people for Christ.
You can go to the extreme in any type of clothing and mindset. I acknowledge not every guy that wears a suit & tie with a short haircut and sits on the front row of a church is spiritually where he should be either.
There is a passage in the NT that deals with people back in Bible times who rented clothes/jewerly to go to church to impress. God doesn't look out the outside but he does the inside. People can't see the inward as God can and judge others right or wrong from the outside. We are to be salt/light to the world.
http://www.choiceshirts.com/images/A5/87/A5877B-md.jpg

"I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me. And heard my cry. He also brought me up out of a horrible pit. Out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my steps. He has put a new song in my mouth-Praise to our God." Psalm 40:1-3
:amen: Great post, Heather!!

[seebs]

FWIW, I listen to gloomy music when I'm depressed; I don't become depressed from listening to gloomy music. If anything, it cheers me up.

[dinonum]

I think that there is a difference between Goth and liking black, or looking better in black. Honestly, being Goth and Christian is like being another religion and Christian, it just doesn't work. Actually being Goth is about being "dead". True Goth's don't just wear black but they are normally very pale skinwise, and the do things to their bodies to give the appearance of someone who is dead. Christian's are not about dying, they are about living on forever in Heaven with their Father God. To be a Christian who likes black is a different story though. I like black and I like, well, things like black leather jewelry...

And that is all I have to say about that.

[seebs]

I don't know where this wacky stuff about what "real" goths are like is coming from. I have a lot of goth friends. I sleep with a goth. I think I know a little about what goths are sometimes like. All this stuff is like the D&D-bashing fad of the 80s; it's second-hand rumors being filtered to get the juicy-sounding bits.

[Crazy Liz]

I don't see why not. I actually think gothy stuff can be a lot of fun.

Keep in mind that some Christians are depressed, and gothic poetry and music may speak to that part of their experience.

This is an interesting point. Our church is preparing to send another delegation to visit our sister church in Siberia. One of the cultural issues discussed in preparation for the trip is how nearly all Russian church music is written in minor keys. Americans think it is too gloomy to be Christian. Americans have much less experience of suffering than Russians, and tend to deny what little suffering we do experience, while Russians express in their music how they find God in their suffering, rather than how God always makes them happy.

[adamas]

please check out the fire escape ministery website(search for fire escape christian goth on yahoo). . .this will help you to understand what a TRUE goth is (which is something all but like one or two people who posted on here besides myself dosen't know!) and it will tell you how a TRUE 100% Bible beleiveing, God fearing, liveing by the Word, walking in the way, honest to goodness Christian cna be a goth also! it is doable without haveing ot compramise!
other good sites are the fire and ice ministery and christiangoth.com

[seebs]

Thanks for the link!

http://www.fehq.org/public/gothic.htm

Interesting.

[SumTinWong]

Funny, here's what I found on that site:
My bad I use two dictionaries:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Goth

[SumTinWong]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/goth.htm

[SumTinWong]

What is Goth?
Goth unashamedly celebrates the dark recesses of the human psyche. Put the back of your hand on your forehead, and you're there: dark sensuality, sweeping sadness, morbid fascination, forbidden love, the beauty of enduring pain, you get the picture.

Why Goth?
Many people lead unhappy, unachieved lives. And that's sad. Goth makes depression and angst a lifestyle choice, and that's art. ;-)

http://www.sfgoth.com/primer/

[RED that's ME]

People do have different cultures that weight into the situation but I am speaking from goths in the US that I have met/talked with doesn't mean what I'm saying is false just because another person has a different view/opinion on the situation.

[seebs]

I think the point is that it's not a safe generalization. There are a lot of goths on CF, from various backgrounds.

[Crazy Liz]

I think the point is that it's not a safe generalization. There are a lot of goths on CF, from various backgrounds.

...and a lot of misconceptions about who or what is a goth. I should say that although my kids fit at least 7 or 8 items on the infamous list, neither of them is actually a goth. I'd be surprised if 50% of teenagers didn't fit at least 5. That's why it's so funny.

[seebs]

...and a lot of misconceptions about who or what is a goth. I should say that although my kids fit at least 7 or 8 items on the infamous list, neither of them is actually a goth. I'd be surprised if 50% of teenagers didn't fit at least 5. That's why it's so funny.

Oh, the famous list is a hilarious joke. It's just like the surrealist things we saw during the 80s about D&D.

[Gold Dragon]

I've only known one goth in my lifetime and not very well so I don't really understand the thinking behind it.

But focusing on depression, angst and death are also things that some of the prophets did, David did in his psalms of disorientation, and Job did in his time of trial. People of God are not magically free of those ideas.

[adamas]

Yeah! any of you read the book of Isiah. . .good stuff!

[mesue]

I'm not convinced that God cares that you are "Goth".
He doesn't look on outward appearence.
I do know that He cares about your heart attitude and that you believe that He sent His only begotten Son so that if you believe on Him you shall be saved.

[ps139]

I was a friends with a Christian goth in high school. Of course I never knew he was Christian until the senior year when I actually talked to him and didn't treat him as some "wierdo." The guy was a strong Christian, he just happened to wear different clothes than me and listen to different music. I am glad I learned that lesson when I was young.

[SumTinWong]

Hey pull up a chair:

My original answer was based on what I have read and what I have witnessed. From appearances only I made a judgment that i suppose now I should not have made. Is it possible for people who are Goth to be Christian? I guess I will have to say yeah. I still do not understand it, but I guess that people who saw me wearign a bandana and looking like a biker with my tatoos would have thought much of me either.

I apologize to you my friend adamas for making assumptions based on outward appearance. If it was based on that, I would have to be outside with you ;)

Forgive me...

[GreenEyedLady]

IMHO,
What you wear represents what you are or what society thinks that you are. It has been that way since OT times
If you wear it, someone is going to think it. Dress among christians should be very modest and important among all believers. I would not allow my children to go around dressing in goth. How you dress tells the world what you are and what you represtent. It is so important if you are going to be a witness that you represent yourself modestly.
Just wondering,
Does any one who dresses goth in here go soul winning? Do you preach in the streets or go knockin on the community doors?
GEL

[Iollain]

The Christian Goths do reach other Goths :) I just worry about the poor souls as they get picked on, and beat up a lot by people who call them satanists and stuff...i wish they would stop and think of just WHO is acting like the satan follower.

[SumTinWong]

IMHO,
Does any one who dresses goth in here go soul winning? Do you preach in the streets or go knockin on the community doors?
GEL
I agree with you GEL, that we should dress appropriately (unlike some of the low risers I see in church of all places) but who better to reach goths but goths? When I was young I would not have listened to a preppy looking dude, I might have at the least tore him up verbally in the worst physically.

Had a tatooed freak like me told me the good news i would have been more inclined to hear it.

That is just me though...

[seebs]

It happens to all of us occasionally. My weak spot is people in business clothes; I tend to just assume they can't be serious about this...

Turns out that Heaven has no dress code, thank God.

[seebs]

Does any one who dresses goth in here go soul winning? Do you preach in the streets or go knockin on the community doors?

I don't dress goth that much, but I do sometimes. I don't go in much for formalized evangelism, but I try to witness always.

[Iollain]

IMHO,
What you wear represents what you are or what society thinks that you are. It has been that way since OT times
If you wear it, someone is going to think it. Dress among christians should be very modest and important among all believers. I would not allow my children to go around dressing in goth. How you dress tells the world what you are and what you represtent. It is so important if you are going to be a witness that you represent yourself modestly.
Just wondering,
Does any one who dresses goth in here go soul winning? Do you preach in the streets or go knockin on the community doors?
GEL

That's pretty much what you have to de GEL, not allow it or comprimise one bit with them about dressing Goth. My 10 year old came in the room a few days ago with her big sisters black 'Demon Hunter' t-shirt on (she thinks her big sis is cool), and she askes me if she can wear it to school, i almost hit the roof. lol The thing is though, you cannot dress your child forever, someday they are just gonna dress in what they want to.

[Gold Dragon]

The Christian Goths do reach other Goths :) I just worry about the poor souls as they get picked on, and beat up a lot by people who call them satanists and stuff...i wish they would stop and think of just WHO is acting like the satan follower.

Good point. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that Goths or people who dress in radical ways are often dealing with low self-esteem issues from abuse, real or perceived. Their radical dress/culture is a defiance to that abuse and in some ways a cry for help.

Our attitudes should be one of Christ-like concern for them as unique people with unique issues and not to continue any abuse by mocking, ridicule, condemnation or trying to change them.

Of course, sometimes its just personal style or peer pressure or a stage in self-discovery.

[SumTinWong]

You know, I worked the Big Packet show in Fort Worth, Saturday night,
We had all day Sunday to rest and relax, before I caught another flight.
So I decided to walk down town an' get myself a little fresh air.
Before long, I found myself in front of a big church on the corner of the square.

Boy, I could hear that singin' way out in the street, sure was a beautiful sound.
So I just walked up the steps an' opened the door an' started to go inside an' sit down.
But before I could, a young man walked over to me an said: "Excuse me, Sir,
"But I can't let you in with that big black hat, those jeans, that beard an' long hair.

So I just left, went back outside, sat down on that curbing, an I thought to myself:
That's the house of the Lord. That guy's got the hell of a nerve.
Tellin' me I can't worship anywhere I please.
So right there, in front of that Church, I just knelt down on my knees.

I said: "Lord, I know I don't look like much, but I didn't think you'd mind.
"I just wanted to be with your people, Lord: it's been a long time.
"A while ago, a saw a wino over there in the alley, all bent over in tears,
"An' I thought how one stained glass window, from this Church, would feed his family for years."

"Then there's those fine cars parked outside: too many for me to count.
"Made me think how people walked for days to hear your sermon on the mount.
"Then there's those fine ladies in the choir, Lord, singin' like they really love it.
"Hell, last night, they were dancin' on the front row of my show: drinkin' beer, screamin: 'Sing Shove It.'

"You know, even John the Baptist wouldn't be welcome in this place,
"With his coat made of Camel hair an' sandals on his feet an' a long beard on his face.
"You know, Lord, when you come back to get your children, an' take 'em beyond the clouds,
"To live forever in Heaven with you: well, I'd sure hate to be in this crowd.

"You know, Lord, I'm not perfect; some even call me no count.
"But I'll tell you: I believe a man is judged by what's in his heart, not what's in his bank account.
"So if this is what religion is: a big car, a suit an' a tie,
"Then I might as well forget it Lord, 'cause I can't qualify.

"Oh, by the way, Lord, right before they kicked me out, didn't I see a picture of you?
"With sandals an' a beard. Believe you had long hair too."
"Well, this is Paycheck, signing off.
"I'll be seein' you Lord, I hope."

[Iollain]

Good point. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that Goths or people who dress in radical ways are often dealing with low self-esteem issues from abuse, real or perceived. Their radical dress/culture is a defiance to that abuse and in some ways a cry for help.

Our attitudes should be one of Christ-like concern for them as unique people with unique issues and not to continue any abuse by mocking, ridicule, condemnation or trying to change them.

Of course, sometimes its just personal style or peer pressure or a stage in self-discovery.


Yeah, or sometimes they just like the look and think it is cool

[seebs]

Yeah, or sometimes they just like the look and think it is cool

Indeed. And I guess that, when it's just a matter of personal taste, it's no more right or wrong than wearing business suits, or riding leathers, or anything else that you like the look of.

[GreenEyedLady]

The thing is though, you cannot dress your child forever, someday they are just gonna dress in what they want to.

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

They might rebel, but they will always come back.

GEL

[Iollain]

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

They might rebel, but they will always come back.

GEL

Oh for sure! They don't go through stages forever.

[Crazy Liz]

I was a friends with a Christian goth in high school.

WOW! :eek: That means you're a lot younger than I thought you were. ;)

I am glad I learned that lesson when I was young.

If you went to high school with goths, you're still young, brother! ^_^

[SumTinWong]

He is still a genius but . . . Bill is only 12 ;)

[dinonum]

The word "Goth" covers a lot of ground and almost two millennia: from the marauding Germanic tribes of the second century, to pointy European cathedrals and haunting American literature, all the way to the "dark" fashion and music that still gets confused with devil worship.

The Gothic architecture that evolved in Europe between the 12th and 16th centuries--vaulted ceilings, gargoyles, pointed arches--did actually get its name from the Germanic tribes. Italian Renaissance writers apparently thought those cathedrals were ugly and chose to blame them on the barbarians who had done battle with the Roman Empire about a thousand years earlier.

But what better setting than a Gothic-style medieval castle for the dark, scary Gothic literature that developed much later, with the stories of Edgar Allan Poe, Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein" and "Dracula"?

Ghoulish encounters with vampires and other living dead gave the characters of Gothic literature a bad case of anti-social behavior--a stigma (or sign of prestige) that endures in modern Goth culture: moody, punk-inspired music, first presented by Siouxsie & The Banshees and Bauhaus, and the black-and-white death tones of Goth fashion.

One of the latest blows to the Goth reputation followed the Columbine High School shootings in 1999; the killers were reported to have worn dark trench coats and listened to angsty rocker Marilyn Manson. Wrongly perceived as Goth, they were explained away as worshippers of evil--and members of the Goth community weren't pleased.



This is from gurl . com's label it...honestly...yeah...just to let everyone know what goth is and everything!

[CaDan]

"You know, Lord, I'm not perfect; some even call me no count.
"But I'll tell you: I believe a man is judged by what's in his heart, not what's in his bank account.
"So if this is what religion is: a big car, a suit an' a tie,
"Then I might as well forget it Lord, 'cause I can't qualify.

"Oh, by the way, Lord, right before they kicked me out, didn't I see a picture of you?
"With sandals an' a beard. Believe you had long hair too."
"Well, this is Paycheck, signing off.
"I'll be seein' you Lord, I hope."

http://www.bitweever.com/blog/images/johnny-cash.jpg

Well, you wonder why I always dress in black,
Why you never see bright colors on my back,
And why does my appearance seem to have a somber tone.
Well, there's a reason for the things that I have on.

I wear the black for the poor and the beaten down,
Livin' in the hopeless, hungry side of town,
I wear it for the prisoner who has long paid for his crime,
But is there because he's a victim of the times.

I wear the black for those who never read,
Or listened to the words that Jesus said,
About the road to happiness through love and charity,
Why, you'd think He's talking straight to you and me.

Well, we're doin' mighty fine, I do suppose,
In our streak of lightnin' cars and fancy clothes,
But just so we're reminded of the ones who are held back,
Up front there ought 'a be a Man In Black.

I wear it for the sick and lonely old,
For the reckless ones whose bad trip left them cold,
I wear the black in mournin' for the lives that could have been,
Each week we lose a hundred fine young men.

And, I wear it for the thousands who have died,
Believen' that the Lord was on their side,
I wear it for another hundred thousand who have died,
Believen' that we all were on their side.

Well, there's things that never will be right I know,
And things need changin' everywhere you go,
But 'til we start to make a move to make a few things right,
You'll never see me wear a suit of white.

Ah, I'd love to wear a rainbow every day,
And tell the world that everything's OK,
But I'll try to carry off a little darkness on my back,
'Till things are brighter, I'm the Man In Black.

Still miss ya, Johnny...

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000062X9D.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[Crazy Liz]

The Gothic architecture that evolved in Europe between the 12th and 16th centuries--vaulted ceilings, gargoyles, pointed arches--did actually get its name from the Germanic tribes. Italian Renaissance writers apparently thought those cathedrals were ugly and chose to blame them on the barbarians who had done battle with the Roman Empire about a thousand years earlier.

I had read this, but always wondered why they thought it was ugly. The examples of gothic architecture we Americans are most familiar with are the cathedrals of Chartres and Notre Dame in France.

http://www.artlex.com/ArtLex/kl/images/labyrinth_chartres.lg.jpg http://www.pubblinet.com/varie/paris/notredame.jpg

But then a few years ago I saw the Duomo of Milan. Suddenly I understood what the Renaissance architects were talking about! Sometimes called the largest gothic cathedral in the world (I have also heard St. John the Divine in NY given this description, so I don;t know which one is really bigger), it is the ugliest cathedral I have ever seen!
http://66.91.41.55/vacation/MilanoDuomo.jpg

[seebs]

I really like that style of architecture, but... It is admittedly sorta ugly.

[Bingle]

1 John 5:6 If we say we have fellowship with him; and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Speaks for itself I think.

[Steve_SandbachBaptist_UK]

I think you could be but it makes it more difficult. Personally as a christian I would not consider being a "goth" though.

[seebs]

1 John 5:6 If we say we have fellowship with him; and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Speaks for itself I think.

I don't think so; this might be topical if all "darkness" were interchangeable.

But either this applies to all darkness -- say, it covers going to the grocery store at night -- or we have to figure out what kind of darkness is being described. And if it means evil, then using it to show that goth stuff is evil is just begging the question.

[TwinCrier]

1 John 5:6 If we say we have fellowship with him; and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Speaks for itself I think.I love it when someone responds with scripture instead of just their personal opinion.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God

[Gold Dragon]

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God

Strangely, your use of this passage might be percieved as a support for Goth dress and music which definitely is non-conforming to the standards of the world.

[seebs]

I love it when someone responds with scripture instead of just their personal opinion.

I like it more when some explanation is offered of how the poster is understanding the scripture in question, and how it applies.

[adamas]

Go soul winning. . .sometimes
Go door to door or visitation . . .every now and then
Witness to ppl at my college. . .whenever i can.
work in the midia ministery at my church . . .yep.
be a Godly example. . .i try
Preach in the streets. . .not quite there yet. . .i like not to make TOOmuch of a scene i'll leave that to the independant baptist :D

[adamas]

I agree with you GEL, that we should dress appropriately (unlike some of the low risers I see in church of all places) but who better to reach goths but goths? When I was young I would not have listened to a preppy looking dude, I might have at the least tore him up verbally in the worst physically.

Had a tatooed freak like me told me the good news i would have been more inclined to hear it.

That is just me though...

I agree with this. . .yes i do dress got hbut i always dress modestly. i think it doesn't matter too much how you dress as long as you keep it clean.

PS: UB, i forgive you, no hard feelins! :D i probably replied a little too harshly.

[SumTinWong]

Nah you were right, thanks for the rebuke. Peace.

[adamas]

1 John 5:6 If we say we have fellowship with him; and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Speaks for itself I think.
this is saying spiritual darkness not the night or dark cloths or dark art/personality. and to say that wearing black and dressing in dark colors is darkness sounds a little uneducated because you see, you have to be in the light in order to tell black from red or green or blue or neon pink! in darkness, if you are in the dark, all colors look the same.
PS i know this post wasnt about cloths i just thought i'd make that point ;)

[adamas]

I have some GREAT stuff from www.christiangoth.com (http://www.christiangoth.com) i hope they dont mind me posting it here . . .i did cite them :)
Check out this site. . .it has alot of great info. . .ESP. in the "Just 'cause i don't look like you" section

It was a beautiful Sunday morning. People were filling the church to its fullest capacity! As they entered, each were given a bulletin filled with announcements, topic of today's sermon, what songs they would sing and who to pray for. At the end of the line stood an older man. His clothes were filthy and you could tell that he had not bathed in days. His face was covered in whiskers where he had not shaved for a very long time. When he reached the usher, he removed his tattered old brown hat in
respect. His hair was a long, dirty, tangled mess. He had no shoes on his feet, and wore only soiled, black socks.
The usher put his fingers to his nose and glared at the old man and said, "Uh, I'm sorry sir, but I'm afraid we can't let you in. You will distract the congregation and we don't allow anyone to disrupt our service. I'm afraid you'll have to leave."
The old man looked down at himself and with a puzzled look on his face, he placed his old brown hat back upon his head and turned to leave. He was sad as he loved to hear the choir sing praises to the Lord. He loved to watch the little children get up in front of the church to sing their little songs. He carried in his pocket a small worn out Bible and loved to see if the minister preached a passage from the Bible that the old man had underlined. He was respectful enough and didn't want to cause
any commotion, so he hung down his head and walked back down the steps of the big brick church. He sat down on the brick wall near the edge of the church yard and strained to listen through closed doors and windows to the singing going
on in the church. Oh how he wished he could be inside with all the others. A few minutes had passed by when all of a sudden a younger man came up behind him and sat down near him. He asked the old man what he was doing. He answered, "I was going to go to church today, but they thought I was filthy and my clothes are old and worn, and they were afraid I would
disrupt their service. Sorry, I didn't introduce myself. My name is George." The two gentlemen shook hands and George couldn't help but notice that this man had long hair like his. He wore a piece of cloth draped over his body tied with a royal purple sash. He had sandals upon his feet, now covered with dust and dirt. The stranger reached out to touch George's shoulder and said, "Hello, George, don't feel bad because they won't let you in. My name is Jesus, and I've been trying to get into this same church for years, and they won't let me in either." --author unknown

[adamas]

another good one from www.christiangoth.com (http://www.christiangoth.com)
I like the way she thinks!
article two by Morria-----------

"Sunday, February 20, 2005

Before I start this...I want to say... I LOVE God with my whole heart...and I like my church alot....I just have a few issues I need to vent as a
whole.....and this is that vent...

Why is it when someone dresses in all black and comes to church...with strange make up...and all...that they think you are a pagan...or a witch!
GIVE ME A BRAKE!!!

How many times does the Word of our Lord speak of the heart being the well spring of life? How many times does the Word speak that the heart is what matters? Will people just pick up their Bibles and READ for ONCE!!!

Persecution of the Gothic Christians and Christian Punks...is sooooo uncalled for... Yeah we are the freaks....but the Hippies of the '70s were
the ones who brought us the term "Jesus Freak"....it is about time the Church saw real Jesus Freaks again. Yet...Christ told us...the world would
HATE us for our witness for Him. And it is often the religious folks who are the worst at doing this...because they are happy as pew warmers looking down on others....and we shake up their happy little world. There for we count it all joy to suffer for Christ's sake.

Let me ask you...who dares walk in to the shadowlands? Who dares to love those in the sub-cutures? Who dares to see...that they are the bards and the poets of our present day? Many great artist are in their midst...but the church shuns them...and shuts them out. The church thus loses a great witness for this age....and they wonder why their churches are so dull and bland? Because they have NO verity... give me a BRAKE!!! I have gone to SOOO many churches that everyone seems like carbon copys of each other...scared to death to share their hurts and their worries...because it will make them look bad...PLEASE!!! And then...when the Goths and Punks
walk in and tell them how ruff life is..and how much of hypocrites they are....they run us OUT!!! hee.hee....what a R.I.O.T (righteous innovation of
truth=ie: the song by Carmen)!

I know many Christians who calm to be great prayer warriors...yet when they meet a Goth or punk who serves Christ....they turn on us. We are the warriors out in the midst of the shadowlands...we dare to wear the black clothing and be dead to this world. We dare to say that this world is
dying...that the gathering of wealth leads only to earthly gain...and not gain in heaven. We dare run into the enemies lands...dressed like his
children of the night...for we were once apart of them...and bring his prisoners the Light...and we do it in Love...we do it with out rejecting
them for their clothing.
I don't reject those who persecute me for the way I dress...for the fact I am a part of the subcultures...I PRAY for them. I pray that God would open their eyes...that their hearts would be soft...that they would realize they are driving hungry, wounded souls away from the kingdom by their actions. These are my brothers and sisters not yet saved they are driving away...these are those weaker in faith that they are causing to lose
faith...Jesus said it would be better if they had a mill stone around there necks and be in a lake than to cause one of His little ones harm...yet they
do it with no thoughts for their actions....I hurt for them...I hurt for what Jesus will show them when they get to heaven...the souls that might
have been reached, but for their persecutions. It brakes my heart for my Christian brothers and sisters...and for my subculture brothers and
sisters.

They don't see we have a lot of GUTS and BACKBONE...we walk daily in the shadowlands. We walk daily in the enemies territory...and we daily face his threats. He hates us. We are those who walk in no man's land. We are those who cannot call either place really our home...because our Christian brothers and sisters do not often love us...and our subculture brothers and sisters...are at times fearful of us. Our only true home is
heaven...therefore...we walk in the Light of our Lord...and seek to bring as many with us into the kingdom as we can.

Yeah we dress in black...for we are dead to this world. Yeah we look like freaks...because we ARE. Yeah we see the beauty in this dark and dying world...and ADMIT is it dying... but yet we DO see the beauty...that GOD created. Yeah...we don't fit in to the "good church kid" mold...it is about TIME someone BROKE that mold anyway. Yeah...we walk the in the shadowlands....that is where GOD has placed us. Yeah we write dark
stuff...but so did Shakespeare, King David, and Isaiah!!! So IT IS...and So it SHALL BE. Let us WALK therefore in the LIGHT of the LORD!!!"

[TwinCrier]

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

[Gold Dragon]

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Thanks for those prophetic words from Isaiah.

Sometimes I wonder why I call "good Christians" those who are so empty of love for the lost and hurting. Or why I call "Christ-like" church-goers who are so full of bitterness for people who are different from them.

Woe is me.

[SumTinWong]

John 7:24

[TwinCrier]

See, there we go with the accusation of judgement. That is the fad of the day, when you feel guilty or convicted instead of repenting, cry intoilerance and judgement.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

[_sunshinegirl]

I said yes.
Goth is a label to define a way person is or thinks, like prep .. skater etc.
It can be an add on from the root of the person which is Christian.

[adamas]

just remember. . .Jesus didn't dress like a proper "religous" person.

[seebs]

See, there we go with the accusation of judgement. That is the fad of the day, when you feel guilty or convicted instead of repenting, cry intoilerance and judgement.

The passage cited from Isaiah talks about judging, not in the sense of condemnation, but in the sense of reaching conclusions.

It is clear that conclusions are being reached. However, the frequent conflation of darkness, in the sense of dark colors, and spiritual darkness, in the sense of evil, and emotional darkness, as in the sense of depression. is a grave error. Depressed people may nonetheless be spiritual beacons to others. The Johnny Cash song quoted was a particularly good example of this.

[SumTinWong]

See, there we go with the accusation of judgement. That is the fad of the day, when you feel guilty or convicted instead of repenting, cry intoilerance and judgement.
That is hilarious. Yeah Twin feeling real guilty and convicted here about not judging a book by its cover.

[seebs]

I've tended to dress in dark colors and listen to gothy music and metal for 15+ years, and it doesn't seem to produce guilt or feelings of conviction against such things. There are many things I am convicted against, so it's not just that I don't know what conviction is like.

[seebs]

Some thoughts.

Many years ago, a kid at my school died. He was way too young. It was not cheerful music which comforted me; it was Pink Floyd's song The Great Gig In The Sky. It is not a happy song, but it is comforting.

There are parts of my life that are spoken to by music which is not always happy or cheerful.

D'you get scared
To feel so much
To let somebody touch you
So hot
So cold
So far so out of control
Hard to come by
And harder to hold.

[ZiSunka]

oh and one thing a Christian has to be bleak about is the fact that most of the world is going to die and go to hell and that everyday we live in a world of death and destruction ruled by sin.

But we also live in a world of beauty that God created for our use and enjoyment. That's something to be happy about.

Someone or someones led us to the Lord so that we can know our destiny is secure. That's something to be happy about.

We have been given time here on this earth to live and to help other people find the Way the Truth and the Life. That's something to be happy about.

We will eventually live forever in the presence of God. That's something to be happy about.

You can live in a world where your glass is half empty and mourn and pout that you don't have more. Or you can live in a world where your glass is half full and see if God doesn't fill it all the way up as you praise Him for the good things you have been given. :)

He came to give us life, adbundantly, not to make us grumpy sourpusses.

[SumTinWong]

not to make us grumpy sourpusses.
Which verse was that again ;) Just kidding :)

[seebs]

Distinguish between happiness and joy; you can be sad and joyful, or happy and joyless.

[ZiSunka]

Or you can just let yourself be happy and stop analysing everything so much.

[seebs]

Or you can just let yourself be happy and stop analysing everything so much.

I can, most of the time. Some of my friends don't have the same brain chemistry I do, and can't.

[ZiSunka]

I can, most of the time. Some of my friends don't have the same brain chemistry I do, and can't.

A good doctor can help them with that.

[BT]

just remember. . .Jesus didn't dress like a proper "religous" person.

What would you base that on?

[BT]

Go soul winning. . .sometimes
Go door to door or visitation . . .every now and then
Witness to ppl at my college. . .whenever i can.
work in the midia ministery at my church . . .yep.
be a Godly example. . .i try
Preach in the streets. . .not quite there yet. . .i like not to make TOOmuch of a scene i'll leave that to the independant baptist :D


ROFL!

I resemble that remark!

[9-iron]

And if it means evil, then using it to show that goth stuff is evil is just begging the question.


I suppose I live a shunned and reclusive life here in the middle of nowhere. The darkness would mean anything that rejects the 'light' of the gospel. The 'light' being the revelation of Christ. From a demographic standpoint, the area I live Goth is viewed as Satanic.{ after all isn't public perception the basis for judging others } I think it would be very confusing for someone to claim Christian Goth in this part of the world. Of course, we have only had running water and electricity for 10-12 years now. So we might now be 'hip' or as open minded in other areas. We don't eat salsa from New York City either.

[eldermike]

I am a biker, I play bass in a biker band and ride with a group called bikers for Christ. I am also a pastor, an engineer, a father and a grandfather. I have several "looks" depending on who I am with and what I am doing.

Some cultural experiences are easy to fall into. It's an issue of acceptance. Bikers help other bikers, so they become a family of sorts. Bikers wear stuff that others would never wear and we call it functional when in fact, it's a uniform. The Goths I know are just like that. It's no big deal it's just the place they found acceptance.

A Christian is someone who shares Jesus with others. "Go and make" (which means go and share) is the only requirment.

[ZiSunka]

A Christian is someone who shares Jesus with others. "Go and make" (which means go and share) is the only requirment.



That would make JWs, mormons and moonies Christians. Of course, they add a lot of other stuff to their beliefs, but they all go and make disciples using the name of Jesus.

[BT]

Actually Mike "go and make" is not the only requirement.

For instance:

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Now to deny yourself...
Take up your cross (die to your self)
daily
....

[seebs]

A good doctor can help them with that.

Maybe, maybe not. My spouse has chemical depression, but also a gift for writing... Medicating the depression takes away the gift. Seems to me that the depression is a small price to pay for such beautiful stories.

[seebs]

That would make JWs, mormons and moonies Christians. Of course, they add a lot of other stuff to their beliefs, but they all go and make disciples using the name of Jesus.

I don't know about the moonies. So far as I personally am concerned, JWs and Mormons are a kind of Christian. They believe all sorts of stuff I don't, but so do lots of people.

[SumTinWong]

it is said that Charles Spurgeon battked depression his whole life. I wonder if he would have been the same man without it. Luther on the other hand suffered from chronic constipation. Again...

[eldermike]

You folks are connecting requirments for salvation to "what is a Christian".

If you pick up your cross and follow Jesus, you will share Jesus. Sharing your faith is the evidence of faith, it is the faith without works is dead issue.

To share Jesus means you are sharing truth, that eliminates cults. Jesus said He was the Truth.

My definition stands. It's not mine anyway. Jesus said His followers would do His will. His will was to save the lost.

[Gold Dragon]

I don't know about the moonies.

Sun Myung Moon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Myung_Moon) and the Unification Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unification_Church) can be classified with JWs and Mormons as versions of Christianity with deviations from orthodoxy significant enough to be beyond even generous definitions of Christianity.

I know the Quaker position is broader than most and I don't like these arbitrary lines either because of our human tendency to abuse them, but sometimes they are useful.

[adamas]

What would you base that on?

the fact that the pharasies and the like were the releigous ppl of his day and he certanly didn't dress like them!

[adamas]

Now to deny yourself...
Take up your cross (die to your self)
daily
....

die to ourself. . .that is one of the reasons christian goths like to "dress like were going to a funeral" :D to remind us of that very thing.

[ZiSunka]

You folks are connecting requirments for salvation to "what is a Christian".

If you pick up your cross and follow Jesus, you will share Jesus. Sharing your faith is the evidence of faith, it is the faith without works is dead issue.

To share Jesus means you are sharing truth, that eliminates cults. Jesus said He was the Truth.

My definition stands. It's not mine anyway. Jesus said His followers would do His will. His will was to save the lost.

I've never heard of this "sharing Jesus." What is "sharing Jesus"?

[ZiSunka]

the fact that the pharasies and the like were the releigous ppl of his day and he certanly didn't dress like them!

I don't think the Bible says how he dressed at all, whether it was different or the same as the religious people.

[seebs]

I've never heard of this "sharing Jesus." What is "sharing Jesus"?

The opposite of hoarding Jesus! :)

[ZiSunka]

The opposite of hoarding Jesus! :)

Cute! :)

Seriously, what does it mean to share Jesus in the context of that post? I really don't understand.:scratch:

[eldermike]

I've never heard of this "sharing Jesus." What is "sharing Jesus"?

You have heard of sharing your faith? I picked up the term "sharing Jesus" to replace sharing faith because faith is a gift from God. Sharing my experiences with Jesus is a commandment from God.

Ever hear of a program called share Jesus without fear?

[ZiSunka]

You have heard of sharing your faith? I picked up the term "sharing Jesus" to replace sharing faith because faith is a gift from God. Sharing my experiences with Jesus is a commandment from God.

Ever hear of a program called share Jesus without fear?

Oh, that kind of sharing Jesus! Yes, I understand that.

So, everyone who goes out and evangelizes is a Christian?

[eldermike]

So, everyone who goes out and evangelizes is a Christian?

Evangelizing is the wrong word. Not everyone is called to preach the gospel. However, anyone who has a testimony (all Christians) and shares it is actually producing fruit, and that is the only evidence of real conversion.

[SumTinWong]

I agree with eldermike. We are known by our fruits. Not all fruits are the same, but we all have something to give to anyone who needs to hear the message of the cross. If I were a biker I might listen to Mike because he has been where I am in a way. We have a connection, which is the bike.

The point is we are always supposed to be prepared to give reason of our joy, and I believe that is the duty of every believer.

[ZiSunka]

Evangelizing is the wrong word. Not everyone is called to preach the gospel. However, anyone who has a testimony (all Christians) and shares it is actually producing fruit, and that is the only evidence of real conversion.


Oh, I get it now. What about people who preach a strange gospel. Does their testimony of their conversion count? Like, if a JW came to your door and said "I was saved by faith in Christ, who by the way is just a created thing, an elevated angel, one of many gods," would that testimony be evidence of a real conversion? Would that be evidence of saving faith in Christ?

[eldermike]

Oh, I get it now. What about people who preach a strange gospel. Does their testimony of their conversion count? Like, if a JW came to your door and said "I was saved by faith in Christ, who by the way is just a created thing, an elevated angel, one of many gods," would that testimony be evidence of a real conversion? Would that be evidence of saving faith in Christ?

It's a problem that the Lord has promised to take care of. He said the truth will set them free. Yes their will be false gosples but it's our purpose to tell them the truth

[adamas]

I don't think the Bible says how he dressed at all, whether it was different or the same as the religious people.

well first of all, we know that Jesus traveled. . .ALOT we also know the type of clothing the "religious" people wore (by releigous people i dont mean the ppl of a particular religion but the religious leaders) and that garb wasn't too travel friendly! it was hot and heavy, not clothing for a man of the traveling sort.

also, look at how John the Baptist dressed. . .and he reached many ppl!

[ZiSunka]

well first of all, we know that Jesus traveled. . .ALOT we also know the type of clothing the "religious" people wore (by releigous people i dont mean the ppl of a particular religion but the religious leaders) and that garb wasn't too travel friendly! it was hot and heavy, not clothing for a man of the traveling sort.

That was the clothing they wore when they ministered in the temple, but not their everyday clothing. They didn't walk around in those robes anymore than a catholic or anglican priest walks around in his vestments at the grocery store. They were for ceremonies, not for travelling or lounging around the house or cleaning out the fireplace or picking up the dog poo.


also, look at how John the Baptist dressed. . .and he reached many ppl!

John the Baptizer was a monk who dressed strangely on purpose for two reasons--to show people that he was not of the establishment and to atone for his own sins through suffering so that he could be closer to God. Jesus didn't need to suffer for his sins and didn't need to dress strangely to show that he was not of the establishment.

Besides, at the crucifixion the soldiers divided up his clothing and they don't say anything about his clothing being odd except for the very valuable undergarment that was made of all one piece with no seam. If there were something strange about his clothes, it probably would have been mentioned, since the unusual undergarment attracted the attention of the gospel writers.

[PapaLandShark]

Hmmm...you know I'm 36 and I still dress almost exclusively in black. Obviously I voted yes. I was a Goth back before the term "Bat Caver" came into being. Before then folks dressed like this were called Beatniks or Priests. C'mon guys.

The folks at church don't give it a second thought anymore. You can bet a lot of them came up and talked to me to find out who I was and what I was about...But it wasn't because of my clothes. Once they got to know me I think some of them poked fun at it...then said it was easy to recognize me so it was really a good thing. Bless them.

What's the real question here?

[ZiSunka]

Around here, the term "goth" must have a different meaning. It doesn't mean people who dress in black, it means people who belong to a culture of death and torture. They dress in black, sure, but they also spend their time listening to music that glorifies death and torture and they read and/or produce comic books and other literature about death and torture and create websites about death and torture.

Those were the people I was thinking of when I voted no.

I don't think a person who centers on death and torture can also be centered on Jesus Christ, although I have seen some of these "goths" wearing t-shirts with Christ on them, it is always an image of his suffering, usually with a lot of blood covering his body and pain in his face. I see nothing wrong with acknowledging the pain and blood of the crucifixion, in fact I think more people ought to think about that, but combined with the black lipstick (even on the men) with trails of blood drawn from the corners of the lips, the black clothing, the whiter than white skin, the thousand and one piercings and the look of death on their faces, it's disturbing, not enlightening. Their interest in Christ seems to focus on his torture and death and not on his life or victory over death.

[adamas]

Around here, the term "goth" must have a different meaning. It doesn't mean people who dress in black, it means people who belong to a culture of death and torture. They dress in black, sure, but they also spend their time listening to music that glorifies death and torture and they read and/or produce comic books and other literature about death and torture and create websites about death and torture.

Those were the people I was thinking of when I voted no.

I don't think a person who centers on death and torture can also be centered on Jesus Christ, although I have seen some of these "goths" wearing t-shirts with Christ on them, it is always an image of his suffering, usually with a lot of blood covering his body and pain in his face. I see nothing wrong with acknowledging the pain and blood of the crucifixion, in fact I think more people ought to think about that, but combined with the black lipstick (even on the men) with trails of blood drawn from the corners of the lips, the black clothing, the whiter than white skin, the thousand and one piercings and the look of death on their faces, it's disturbing, not enlightening. Their interest in Christ seems to focus on his torture and death and not on his life or victory over death.
well, arround here that isn't wat goth is. . .yeah some may be obsesed with death and torture but not all. yes alot of us wear black and yes alot of us like "dark" art and literature but it isn't a wierd dark its more of a classical dark.
and i have yet to see any true goths actually do the blood from the lips look and i dont know any goth guys who wear black lipstick (Not most of the time anyways) and the ones who do have peircings, dont have that many. (and some of us dont have any at all)

and the old testement does say that (paraphrase) jesus would be a plain man, and that there wouldnt be anything special about his apperance. . .i agree with you about the priests cloths. . .but another point is. . .jesus had no money, he had no place he called home (after he started his ministry) so one would think that he did wear more "pesanty" clothing

[ZiSunka]

and the old testement does say that (paraphrase) jesus would be a plain man, and that there wouldnt be anything special about his apperance. . .i agree with you about the priests cloths. . .but another point is. . .jesus had no money, he had no place he called home (after he started his ministry) so one would think that he did wear more "pesanty" clothing

Plain and peasanty doesn't equal black or odd, does it? It sounds like he wore the clothing of the common people, which around here would be jeans and a t-shirt with sneakers.

[adamas]

ok. . .that usualy what i wear. . .except i wear boots. . .i always have worn boots even before i started to dress goth tho . . .and my jeans and tees happen to be black :D

[ZiSunka]

Sounds really normal to me, not goth at all.

[adamas]

exactly. . .most true goths dont regularly dress "wierd" we do sometimes, but not always. ..some of us dont ever dress wierd at all

ofcourse i do were my trenchcoat alot. . .but again thats befor i went totaly goth

[ZiSunka]

It's sounds more like you are a literary geek than a goth. :) You know, the beatnik kind of thing.

[adamas]

what im i going to do with you ppl?!?!?!? :D

[ZiSunka]

Okay, okay! You're GOTH! :D

[adamas]

Yay!

[seebs]

The band Sisters of Mercy is very much goth. I wouldn't say that their music "glorifies death and torture", but a lot of it is hardly cheerful... But I think there's a lot of variance in how people see things like this. Even depression can be offered up to God.

[Melly Monster]

Just because someone dresses a certain way doesn't mean they don't have Jesus. And we are not to judge on Apperences we are not to judge at all. Only Jesus knows there hearts.

[Melly Monster]

I voted yes. Though I still wonder why a Christian would want to have that appearance. I don't know what "real goth" is. All I know is what I see. And what I see is dark, spooky, sad, and unapproachable. Perhaps I am just an old fuddy duddy...but...it's what I perceive. I know God looks at the heart, not just the outer appearance. But you have to admit, the outer appearance is pretty indicative of what's in the heart, eh? I think so.

Why do you have your style? I'm not goth and far from it but I have a brother who is, Goth is not scary most goth isn't, some people like to wear it because they like to show there own personailty. Some people listen to that music because it relaxes them, I listen to Heavey metal and Hard rock, doesn't make me goth and doesn't make me not a have Jesus in my heart. There is also Christian Goth music. I'm shocked to see how many of you put No. Who died and made you God? When since can you judge ones heart?

[Crazy Liz]

Around here, the term "goth" must have a different meaning. It doesn't mean people who dress in black, it means people who belong to a culture of death and torture.

It sounds to me like the idea of torture is what bothers you the most. Maybe not, but the way you use "death and torture" together in this post, it seems like you may be thinking of them as a single concept: death-and-torture. You might not be, but perhaps if we can separate death and torture, and add suffering to the discussion (which may or may not be a result of torture) we can find some reconciliation between goth and Christianity.

In separating torture from suffering, I mean to imply that suffering does not always entail torture. However, torture is sometimes used as a metaphor for suffering, even by people who are not anything like goths.

... although I have seen some of these "goths" wearing t-shirts with Christ on them, it is always an image of his suffering, usually with a lot of blood covering his body and pain in his face. I see nothing wrong with acknowledging the pain and blood of the crucifixion, in fact I think more people ought to think about that, ...

Yes. This is what I'm talking about. Throughout history there have been Christians who have focused more on suffering and/or contemplating their own death. In fact, the Lenten season we are in now is set by the church as a period of time during which we are all encouraged to contemplate both our own death and Christ's suffering. Lent seems a particularly appropriate time to be talking about this.

I know you used to be Byzantine Catholic, LL. I don't know if the Byzantine Catholics observe Ash Wednesday the way Roman Catholics do. I also don't know how much of your Catholic experience is still meaningful to you and how much you have rejected. I'm just bringing up Lent and Ash Wednesday to show that some of this exists and is even institutionalized within Christianity today.

Their interest in Christ seems to focus on his torture and death and not on his life or victory over death.

We will all have some differences in which side of the coin we focus on. Some will focus more on Christ's suffering and death, others on Christ's resurrection and victory. One of the things I like about the church year is that Lent encourages those of us who usually look at the victory side to spend some time looking at the death side. I would hope the Easter season would encourage goths and others who tend to focus on the suffering and death to focus on resurrection and victory. In fact, if I were a minister in a church with lots of goths, I might even prepare white robes to be worn by the congregation on Easter. It might have a similar spiritual effect on them as the imposition of ashes has on those of us who tend to focus on the bright side.

These are metaphors for things that really do exist within the Christian faith, and for which the church has had its own symbols for many hundreds of years. I think drawing out the similarities is a good thing.

(Now, WRT drops of blood dripping from the corners of the mouth, I think that's over the top for a Christian, but if a Christian goth could explain it to me, I would be willing to listen. I can see how it might be associated with the Eucharist, rather than vampirism, but even then it's too irreverent for me. I could see a pastor to Christian goths preaching a sermon on how the Eucharist, while having some surface resemblances to vampirism, really is something quite different.)

[ZiSunka]

It sounds to me like the idea of torture is what bothers you the most. Maybe not, but the way you use "death and torture" together in this post, it seems like you may be thinking of them as a single concept: death-and-torture. You might not be, but perhaps if we can separate death and torture, and add suffering to the discussion (which may or may not be a result of torture) we can find some reconciliation between goth and Christianity.

In separating torture from suffering, I mean to imply that suffering does not always entail torture. However, torture is sometimes used as a metaphor for suffering, even by people who are not anything like goths.

I do mean that for the goths I have known, death and torture are ideas that are linked together. Maybe Christian goths are different, but I don't know any Christian goths. The ones I know are all about how to produce suffering, not how to endure unreasonable external suffering. The suffering they are interested in is produced by torture, not to atone or purify as you are implying, but to witness suffering and death as entertainment. I am not using torture as a metaphor for suffering, I am talking about actual torture with the intent to cause extreme pain and emotional distress.



Yes. This is what I'm talking about. Throughout history there have been Christians who have focused more on suffering and/or contemplating their own death. In fact, the Lenten season we are in now is set by the church as a period of time during which we are all encouraged to contemplate both our own death and Christ's suffering. Lent seems a particularly appropriate time to be talking about this.

Again, I'm not talking about Christian goths. "Goth" around here is a term used for people with an inordinate fixation or obsession with inducing pain and death. These people are not contemplating Christ's atonement for us, neither are their t-shirts displaying the suffering Christ did on behalf of humans, they are being amused and entertained by the images of a person dying on a cross after having been beaten and tortured. The t-shirst don't have slogans like "he did this for you," or "by his stripes we are healed." They don't have a slogan at all, no caption, just an image of a man, any man, dying on a cross in a bloody pulp.


I know you used to be Byzantine Catholic, LL. I don't know if the Byzantine Catholics observe Ash Wednesday the way Roman Catholics do. I also don't know how much of your Catholic experience is still meaningful to you and how much you have rejected. I'm just bringing up Lent and Ash Wednesday to show that some of this exists and is even institutionalized within Christianity today.

I already understand your references without them having to be related to catholicism. Remembering and contemplating the suffering and death of Christ is not the exclusive domanin of catholicism. And I am not talking about people who are Christians that happen to wear black (although I now understand that there are many of them and I recognize that every person has the right to express themselves and their faith in whatever culture they live in whether or not other people understand it), I am talking about people who live in a culture obsessed with torture and killing for the purpose of entertainment and amusement. Go to a comicbook store and look around a little. You will probably see many comicbooks devoted to this lifestyle and obsession. None of those books could be remotely connected to the worship of Christ. It's a whole different culture than the one you are aware of.


We will all have some differences in which side of the coin we focus on. Some will focus more on Christ's suffering and death, others on Christ's resurrection and victory. One of the things I like about the church year is that Lent encourages those of us who usually look at the victory side to spend some time looking at the death side. I would hope the Easter season would encourage goths and others who tend to focus on the suffering and death to focus on resurrection and victory. In fact, if I were a minister in a church with lots of goths, I might even prepare white robes to be worn by the congregation on Easter. It might have a similar spiritual effect on them as the imposition of ashes has on those of us who tend to focus on the bright side.

"If the light you think you have is really darkness, how deep that darkness will be!"

There are people who focus on the suffering and death of Christ, and there are people who don't know Christ who dwell in a love for inflicting and expriencing pain and death. Two separate groups with entirely different motives and different masters. When you hear the word "goth," you think of the first one, but I think of the second one because in the area where I live, that is what the term "goth" means, and I know that other regions are like that, too.

[Crazy Liz]

The suffering they are interested in is produced by torture, not to atone or purify as you are implying, but to witness suffering and death as entertainment. I am not using torture as a metaphor for suffering, I am talking about actual torture with the intent to cause extreme pain and emotional distress.

... "Goth" around here is a term used for people with an inordinate fixation or obsession with inducing pain and death.

... I am talking about people who live in a culture obsessed with torture and killing for the purpose of entertainment and amusement.

... There are people who focus on the suffering and death of Christ, and there are people who don't know Christ who dwell in a love for inflicting and expriencing pain and death. Two separate groups with entirely different motives and different masters. When you hear the word "goth," you think of the first one, but I think of the second one because in the area where I live, that is what the term "goth" means, and I know that other regions are like that, too.

I think what you are calling "goth" sounds more like sadism to me. I don't know. Maybe the goths who post here can say more, but I never thought goths (Christian or not) were sadistic.

[Jamza]

Hey there's some great posts in here, its a really interesting discussion raising some genuine questions about Christian love, freedom in Christ, being pure, and avoiding appearances of evil. Hmm...I don't really have an opinion!

[ZiSunka]

I think what you are calling "goth" sounds more like sadism to me. I don't know. Maybe the goths who post here can say more, but I never thought goths (Christian or not) were sadistic.

Of course it's sadistic, but around here the people who do that call themselves "Goth."

I understand that in other places "goth" describes people who dress in black, have a lot of piercings and write a lot of dark poetry.

The first cannot be considered to be followers of Christ, but with the second group, there is no reason they can't be "goth" and Christians, too. Okay?

[adamas]

Of course it's sadistic, but around here the people who do that call themselves "Goth."

I understand that in other places "goth" describes people who dress in black, have a lot of piercings and write a lot of dark poetry.

The first cannot be considered to be followers of Christ, but with the second group, there is no reason they can't be "goth" and Christians, too. Okay?

yes! as a true goth and a christian i agree with lamb! this poor soul seems to have been deprived of the privalage of meeting a true goth!(im not saying anything bad about lamb here) this is one of the points im trying to make, alot of people have a bad view of goths because these wierd ppl like those lamb has seen who ARE NOT GOTH call themselves goth and therfore give true goths a bad name. lamb, i hope oneday you get to meet a true goth . . .you may not nececerily become friends with them, but when you meet them they will be one of the nicest ppl you meet. . .if they are a true goth.

[ZiSunka]

yes! as a true goth and a christian i agree with lamb! this poor soul seems to have been deprived of the privalage of meeting a true goth!(im not saying anything bad about lamb here) this is one of the points im trying to make, alot of people have a bad view of goths because these wierd ppl like those lamb has seen who ARE NOT GOTH call themselves goth and therfore give true goths a bad name. lamb, i hope oneday you get to meet a true goth . . .you may not nececerily become friends with them, but when you meet them they will be one of the nicest ppl you meet. . .if they are a true goth.

I hope so, too adamas, and I hope I become friends with that person(s).

I acknowledge that all I've ever come into contact with are false goths who are sadists using the "goth" name, and that true goths can be very nice, healthy people and devoted Christians. If I could change my vote based on this new definition, I would. :)

[Hark3N]

After going through all the posts here, I just have to add fuel to the fire. To me bieng a goth has nothing to do with the clothing. Yes, I like black and boots and leather, but that was before I even knew about a sub-culture called goth (I must add that I really like gothic clothing and my girlfriend, who is not a goth, wants to get married in a gothi style wedding dress).

For me it is about mourning the death of our saviour, Lord Jesus Christ. I'm also mourning the fact that it is me, insert own name here, that crucified him. We are all guilty of crucifying Christ, through our sins.

On the other hand, I'm also joyfull, because when he died on the cross, he forgave us, the very people that killed him.

As for the music bieng riddled with references to death, please read my signature. This is a gothic band.

[TwinCrier]

You can come out of mourning now, Jesus is alive, risen from the grave. Rejoice! He is not here: for he is risen, as he said.

[BT]

You can come out of mourning now, Jesus is alive, risen from the grave. Rejoice! He is not here: for he is risen, as he said.

:clap: :clap: :amen:

[RED that's ME]

You can come out of mourning now, Jesus is alive, risen from the grave. Rejoice! He is not here: for he is risen, as he said.

:amen:

"I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself for me." (Galatians 2:20).

"God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision, but a new creature" (Galatians 6:14,15).

Jesus Christ overcame the sins of the world he is risen! We were crucified with Christ but now a new creature in Him and we should reflect that in everything we do. :angel:

[Hark3N]

Let me please set the record straight. I am not English by birth. After you guys replied on my post, I went back and re-read it and saw my mistake. Please forgive me for that blatant mistake that should never have cropped in.

BTW. That "offending" line should just be the second part. Please disregard the part about Jesus bieng dead. He is not. I know that.

I still mourn the fact that I(we) were the cause for God the Father to send us his only Son, so that He might die on the cross for our sin.

God bless