Crossing yourself

[OrthoCanuck]

I was wondering if crossing yourself is practiced by any members here or by anyone they know from their church? I know that crossing oneself is an old practice and done by members of various denoms (not just Catholics and Orthodox).

[SumTinWong]

Not that i am aware of but perhaps some people who once were Catholics still do this ?

[Matthan]

I've been a baptist for around five decades, and not once have I ever witnessed any fellow Baptist cross him or herself.

Furthermore, in some Baptist congregations were someone to "cross" themselves, it would no doubt be little short of scandelous. Deacons would hyper-ventilate, widows would swoon, and a business meeting would be called for the following Tuesday!

Matthan <J><

[SumTinWong]

Lol

[SumTinWong]

We actually have a plethora of ex-Catholics that still say tresspasses instead of debts in the Lord's Prayer. I even catch myself saying it from time to time because that is how I learned it as a child.

[ZiSunka]

Nope, that was one of the first things I gave up when I left catholicism. I never really "got it" though, so I only did it grudgingly when I was growing up. It seemed a little like ritual and I've never been one for ritual. I think God hears me when I pray whether I announce myself by crossing or not.

The rest of my family still does it, but they are also still catholic.

[Unnamed Servant]

I have always wondered what people that cross themselves would be doing today if Jesus would have been stoned.

[SumTinWong]

hahaha... Oh man I cannot tell you the thought that jsut went through my mind :)

[ZiSunka]

UB, presbyterians, episcopals and most anabaptists say tresspasses and not debts. Lots of protestants say tresspasses, maybe more than say debts.

[Gold Dragon]

I've been a baptist for around five decades, and not once have I ever witnessed any fellow Baptist cross him or herself.

Furthermore, in some Baptist congregations were someone to "cross" themselves, it would no doubt be little short of scandelous. Deacons would hyper-ventilate, widows would swoon, and a business meeting would be called for the following Tuesday!

Matthan <J><

LOL. :D

Our church is holding a suprise "business meeting" next week. Fortunately it is about a potential addition and not a potential excommunication. ;)

[ZiSunka]

I have always wondered what people that cross themselves would be doing today if Jesus would have been stoned.

I had no idea Jesus used drugs. :eek:

Oh wait, you mean executed by stoning, don't you. I guess my days at Kent State influenced me more than I think.:D

[OrthoCanuck]

Thanks for the answers. Some were quite creative. I've seen Lutherans and Anglicans cross themselves, didn't know if any other protestants did it.

[Lockheed]

Lutherans of the LCMS and ELS traditions often cross themselves during services.

[desert_island_1]

I used to cross myself but that was because I was forced to go to a Catholic school for 9 years. I really dislike it and havent done it since I was allowed to go to a public school. I know a few people who cross themselves but that is just out of habit and going to a Catholic school / being raised as a kid Catholic (most of them are Naz. now)

[Diane_Windsor]

From my post (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16354546&postcount=9) in the Methodist Forum:

I do so in my private prayers, and I also cross myself before/after receiving communion. I catch myself sometimes cross myself during Baptist services out of habit. I strongly encourage others to adopt the practice.

I'll add that I cross myself nearly everytime I hear of a death, and did so this past Sunday at a Methodist service. I'll say a short prayer for the deceased as well.

Diane
:)

[bleechers]

From my post (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16354546&postcount=9) in the Methodist Forum:

I do so in my private prayers, and I also cross myself before/after receiving communion. I catch myself sometimes cross myself during Baptist services out of habit. I strongly encourage others to adopt the practice.

I'll add that I cross myself nearly everytime I hear of a death, and did so this past Sunday at a Methodist service. I'll say a short prayer for the deceased as well.

Diane
:)

I strongly DISCOURAGE it. It has no place in scripture and is a form of superstition. It is a man-made ritual.

Why do you pray for the dead?

How would crossing yourself help the dead even if you believed it wasn't too late? Do you really believe that the blood of Christ is insufficient for God, but that your prayers and "crossing" yourself can help obtain mercy from God for a dead man?

[lucypevensie]

Hopefully, someone will answer my question. Could someone please tell me why people make the cross, and what does it mean/do?

[OrthoCanuck]

I found this definition:

Sign of the Cross:

A gesture describing the form of a cross, made in token of faith in Jesus or as an invocation of God's blessing.



It is mainly used by Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans and I've seen some Lutherans cross themselves. I'm not so sure about other denoms. That's why I posted the original question. I personally don't see any harm in it, unless one wants to avoid being called a Catholic.;) I've always seen it as a word-less way of asking for God's blessing, a physical gesture to show our faith, and a symbolic act of "clothing ourselves in Christ."

Peace.

[Diane_Windsor]

Hopefully, someone will answer my question. Could someone please tell me why people make the cross, and what does it mean/do?

Have you asked in the other forums?

Scripture, Tradition, Reason - Anglican (http://www.christianforums.com/f368-scripture-tradition-reason-anglican.html)
One Bread, One Body - Catholic (http://www.christianforums.com/f26-one-bread-one-body-catholic.html)
The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox (http://www.christianforums.com/f145-the-ancient-way-eastern-orthodox.html)
Coptic & Oriental Orthodox (http://www.christianforums.com/f449-coptic-oriental-orthodox.html)
Theologia Crucis - Confessional Lutherans (http://www.christianforums.com/f367-theologia-crucis-confessional-lutherans.html)

I found this at a Disciples of Christ minister's website: How to Cross Yourself (http://www.kencollins.com/how-01.htm)

Here is a an article from the Catholic Encyclopedia: Sign of the Cross (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13785a.htm)

I'm sure members of the above forums can give you more information.

When I cross myself it reminds me that I am a Christian, and that Christ died for me. It is a highly symbolic gesture for me.

Diane
:wave:

[DawnTillery]

I was wondering if crossing yourself is practiced by any members here or by anyone they know from their church? I know that crossing oneself is an old practice and done by members of various denoms (not just Catholics and Orthodox).

Question?? What is Crossing yourself?
and where does the "tresspasses" in the Lords Prayer come from?
Because as I was growing up thats the only way I heard it till I worked at an Alzheimers Unit and the Activity aide said the prayer with the residents each afternoon before lunch and he said all three things. (Tresspasses, sins and Debts)

[DawnTillery]

N/M i figured out what Crossing yourself is but anyone else want to shed light on the tresspasses thing?

[Monica02]

Hopefully, someone will answer my question. Could someone please tell me why people make the cross, and what does it mean/do?


CAtholic - Latin Rite

In the name of the Father (touch forehead)
and of the Son (touch stomach area)
And of the Holy Spirit (left to right chest)

One does this to invoke the Holy Trinity in prayer, much as Protestants pray "In the name of Jesus".

I think the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics hold their thumb to thier index and middle finger as another reminder of the Trinity and they may cross right to left. I have also seen people touch the center of their chest after crossing.

[MbiaJc]

We actually have a plethora of ex-Catholics that still say tresspasses instead of debts in the Lord's Prayer. I even catch myself saying it from time to time because that is how I learned it as a child.

Hey I not a Catholic, always been a Baptist, but I have also always said tresspasses. Am I weird or something?

[ZiSunka]

It means using your hand to make motions that when connected together make the sign of the cross over your heart. You touch your forehead, then your belly button, then one shoulder then the other, to make two invisible lines, one horizontal and one vertical that resemble the cross. We were told in catechism classes that people do this to let God know that they are getting ready to pray. It's also done at the end of the prayer to let God know you are finished.

[ZiSunka]

CAtholic - Latin Rite

In the name of the Father (touch forehead)
and of the Son (touch stomach area)
And of the Holy Spirit (left to right chest)

One does this to invoke the Holy Trinity in prayer, much as Protestants pray "In the name of Jesus".

I think the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics hold their thumb to thier index and middle finger as another reminder of the Trinity and they may cross right to left. I have also seen people touch the center of their chest after crossing.

Protestants say "in the name of Jesus" because the Bibles says that anything we ask in his name, God will give us. "In his name" means "by His authority" meaning that we are reminding ourselves that Christ gave us the authority to go directly and boldly to the Father with all our requests, just like a check gives you the authority to withdraw funds from another person's bank account. :)

[Filia Mariae]

Hopefully, someone will answer my question. Could someone please tell me why people make the cross, and what does it mean/do?

Lucy,

We cross ourselves as a physical reminder of our faith in Christ's saving sacrifice on the cross and say "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." When entering a church, we dip our fingers in holy water and then cross ourselves, reminding ourselves of our baptism into Christ's death and resurrection.

We do NOT cross ourselves to "announce" to God that we are praying or in some superstitious belief that crossing ourselves accomplishes something. It is a way of recollecting oneself and bringing oneself into the realization of Paschal mystery which is the center of our Christian faith.

If you have more questions about this, or if I didn't answer you adequately, you're welcome to ask in OBOB.:)

In Him,
Carly

[AJ]

Is there anything in the Bible in support of or in opposition of crossing yourself? I grew up Episcopal, and have crossed myself many times. I don't see any problem with doing it...

[OrthoCanuck]

Is there anything in the Bible in support of or in opposition of crossing yourself? I grew up Episcopal, and have crossed myself many times. I don't see any problem with doing it...

There is certainly nothing unbiblical about crossing yourself. Then again it isn't from scripture either. It an old Christian tradition (it must be old since both the EO and RCC both do it) though I don't know exactly how old. I don't find it any different than folding your hands or lifting them when you pray. That's also a nonscriptural but common tradition. The only problem people might have is if they don't want to be associated in any way with the EO or RCC.

Peace.

[AJ]

There is certainly nothing unbiblical about crossing yourself. Then again it isn't from scripture either. It an old Christian tradition (it must be old since both the EO and RCC both do it) though I don't know exactly how old. I don't find it any different than folding your hands or lifting them when you pray. That's also a nonscriptural but common tradition. The only problem people might have is if they don't want to be associated in any way with the EO or RCC.

Peace.Excellent explination... Thank you. :)

[lucypevensie]

OK, thank you all for the helpful explanations. My question's anwered:)

[ps139]

N/M i figured out what Crossing yourself is but anyone else want to shed light on the tresspasses thing?
Hey I not a Catholic, always been a Baptist, but I have also always said tresspasses. Am I weird or something?
I think the trespasses/debts/sins really just depends on how the prayer is translated into English.
Think about how many Bible translations there are - you can take 3 translations, look up the Greek word, and find it translated in 3 ways.

When I hear "trespasses" I think of one of those "NO TRESPASSING" signs you will find stapled to trees in rural areas.
And with debts, I think of my college loans ^_^

So when I say the prayer I usually say "sins," it makes the most sense to me. I think "debt" and "trespass" are more archaic forms. Just guessing though.

[ZiSunka]

There is certainly nothing unbiblical about crossing yourself. Then again it isn't from scripture either. It an old Christian tradition (it must be old since both the EO and RCC both do it) though I don't know exactly how old. I don't find it any different than folding your hands or lifting them when you pray. That's also a nonscriptural but common tradition. The only problem people might have is if they don't want to be associated in any way with the EO or RCC.

Peace.

I think one more obvious problem is that so many catholics feel they HAVE to do it before they pray or God won't hear their prayers. When I get together with my catholic friends and relatives, they make a big deal out of crossing themselves whenever they pray, or whenever someone mentions something they hope doesn't happen, that it's almost like a supertition than a religous ritual.

For example when the doctor told my aunt she might have cancer, she crossed herself. When I asked her if she was praying, she said crossing yourself is the same as praying, so she didn't have to pray. Later, an older catholic lady I know did the same thing when she heard that one of her sons might be doing something illegal, and when I tried to get her to pray with me, she said that crossing yourself is the same as prayer and that God would take care of it. My sister and cousins often cross themselves as a "good luck" sign, sometimes while rubbing holy medals. It frightens me to think that some people think that making hand gestures is equal to prayer, or that God gives good luck to people who make these hand gesture regardless of the condition of their hearts or their faith.

Crossing yourself before prayer is a sacrimental, which are considered in catholicism to confer grace. Since I believe that all grace is the gift of God and not a reward He gives for making ritualistic hand gestures, I refuse to do it even when it would be easier to just give in and do it because everyone else is doing it. I would never want people to think that evangelical Christians believe that rituals and gestures garner grace from God.

[DawnTillery]

I think the trespasses/debts/sins really just depends on how the prayer is translated into English.
Think about how many Bible translations there are - you can take 3 translations, look up the Greek word, and find it translated in 3 ways.

When I hear "trespasses" I think of one of those "NO TRESPASSING" signs you will find stapled to trees in rural areas.
And with debts, I think of my college loans ^_^

So when I say the prayer I usually say "sins," it makes the most sense to me. I think "debt" and "trespass" are more archaic forms. Just guessing though.

I liked the loan comment, mine will be coming due soon.. YIKES
Yes, sins makes more sense..
I have always said tresspasses as I was growing up, its the way it was said at funerals and such.. I feel weird when I say it any other way, like im saying it wrong, but im just not use to it..

[Rising_Suns]

I think one more obvious problem is that so many catholics feel they HAVE to do it before they pray or God won't hear their prayers. When I get together with my catholic friends and relatives, they make a big deal out of crossing themselves whenever they pray, or whenever someone mentions something they hope doesn't happen, that it's almost like a supertition than a religous ritual.

I wouldn't neccessarily go that far. It's not superstition but rather keeping with a Tradition that dates as far back to the first couple centuries. Perhaps some Catholics today have the wrong idea on why they do it, but that is no reason to be afraid of doing it.

It frightens me to think that some people think that making hand gestures is equal to prayer, or that God gives good luck to people who make these hand gesture regardless of the condition of their hearts or their faith..

Yes, God looks to the heart first, but does that mean all outward signs are meaningless? Just a small passage; Ezekiel 9:4-6 speaks of the sign of the cross (Tau) to be marked on foreheads ("...but do not touch any man on whom is the mark"). It's interesting to note; God could have easily just looked into the hearts of people and spared those whom He wanted, but instead He gave a small responsibility to mankind as well.

But just to make clear, the Catholic Church teaches that God looks to the heart and state of one's soul first above all else. If you know Catholics who think they can "buy" grace by making gestures regardless of their hearts, then they have a false idea of what it means to be Catholic.

Blessings,

-Davide

[ZiSunka]

Perhaps some Catholics today have the wrong idea on why they do it, but that is no reason to be afraid of doing it.

Oh, I'm not afraid, I just see it as one more unnecessary ritual that gets in the way of me relating to God as father-and-child. I would never dream of crossing myself before talking to my human dad, in fact, he would think it was odd if I did. God is my Father even more than my dad is my father, and Jesus said we should call the Father Abba, which means "Daddy." Daddy is an intimate term that is used between a father and a child that have deep love and a healthy relationship. Since God is my Daddy, I don't need to practice any traditions or do any rituals to try to get his attention or earn his approval.


Yes, God looks to the heart first, but does that mean all outward signs are meaningless?



No, but making ritualistic hand gestures is meaningless, when all that is needed to get God's attention is to call out to him and all that is needed to gain his approval is to have faith in his son, Jesus Christ.

[mesue]

... Yes, God looks to the heart first, but does that mean all outward signs are meaningless? Just a small passage; Ezekiel 9:4-6 speaks of the sign of the cross (Tau) to be marked on foreheads ("...but do not touch any man on whom is the mark"). It's interesting to note; God could have easily just looked into the hearts of people and spared those whom He wanted, but instead He gave a small responsibility to mankind as well.

But just to make clear, the Catholic Church teaches that God looks to the heart and state of one's soul first above all else. If you know Catholics who think they can "buy" grace by making gestures regardless of their hearts, then they have a false idea of what it means to be Catholic.

Blessings,

-Davide

Let the Bible interpret the Bible.
My Bible says:
Ezekiel 9:4: And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Ezekiel 9:5: And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
Ezekiel 9:6: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

I'm not getting the "Sign of the Cross" here at all. The Cross was at Calvary, 1400 years after Ezekiel Jesus left His throne above. Ezekiel could not possibly be referring to that. The Jews see the Cross as punishment, not salvation. They denied Christ as Messiah. This kind of rationale just doesn't go.
There are other marks on the forehead mentioned in the Bible as well, are those too, references to the sign of the Cross? If you had it your way, it would.
Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

[ZiSunka]

Especially since the mark in ezekial was most likely a smudge of ashes, which was (and still is) a middle eastern sign of mouring. Middle easterns will still smudge their foreheads with ashes in times of great mourning.

[Rising_Suns]

In the original Hebrew, the "mark" is the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet, i.e., the Tau, or, "T".

[ZiSunka]

In the original Hebrew, the "mark" is the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet, i.e., the Tau, or, "T".

Hate to tell you this, but the Hebrew alphabet doesn't have a letter shaped like a T or a cross. The Roman alphabet has a T, but the Hebrew doesn't. It has a letter that is prnounced the way we pronounce T, but that letter is not cross-shaped. The Tet is shaped like a box with a broken lid and the Taw is shaped like a horseshoe.

[mesue]

In the original Hebrew, the "mark" is the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet, i.e., the Tau, or, "T".
Tau is a scratch. From Strong's
H8420

תּו

tâv

tawv

From H8427; a mark; by implication a signature: - desire, mark.



H8427

תּוה

tâvâh

taw-vaw'

A primitive root; to mark out, that is, (primitive) scratch or (definitely) imprint: - scrabble, set [a mark].

[Rising_Suns]

I am speaking of the ancient Hebrew alphabet, not today's modern Hebrew alphabet. There is a bg difference; today's Taw no longer looks cross-shaped.

This is the ancient Hebrew Taw (Tau in Greek) script;

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_tav.gif


Blessings,

-Davide

[mesue]

I am speaking of the ancient Hebrew alphabet, not today's modern Hebrew alphabet. There is a bg difference; today's Taw no longer looks cross-shaped.

This is the ancient Taw (Tau in Greek) script;

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_tav.gif


Blessings,

-Davide
The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, not Greek.

[Rising_Suns]

The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, not Greek.

Yes, I know this. What is your point?

[mesue]

I am speaking of the ancient Hebrew alphabet, not today's modern Hebrew alphabet. There is a bg difference; today's Taw no longer looks cross-shaped.

This is the ancient Hebrew Taw (Tau in Greek) script;

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_tav.gif


Blessings,

-Davide
my point I bolded. But, I have to admit it looks quite silly. :blush: Sorry.
The manuscripts Rome used are just as old as the manuscripts anyone else used. So, I am compelled to ask, what's your point?

[Carrye]

I wrote a (short) paper on this for my Trinity class. Feel free to PM me if you're interested.

[mesue]

I wrote a (short) paper on this for my Trinity class. Feel free to PM me if you're interested.
I appreciate the offer, however I will trust in God's word. But I really do appreciate your thoughtfulness and have no doubt that it's a most impressive paper.

[RED that's ME]

STAFF HAT ON

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There has been discussing/debating in this thread and that is a violation of Baptist forum rules.

Please observe the rules in the Baptist forum from this point or staff action will happen.


STAFF HAT OFF

[Rising_Suns]

my point I bolded. But, I have to admit it looks quite silly. :blush: Sorry.
The manuscripts Rome used are just as old as the manuscripts anyone else used. So, I am compelled to ask, what's your point?

My point was that God commanded people in the Old Testament to "mark" foreheads with a sign (a sign that happens to look like a cross). I thought I made this clear; ancient Hebrew has the letter "Taw", which is shaped like a "t".

My original point in using this passage, however, was just to show how God calls on us to do outward things. He could have just as easily looked into the hearts of those He wanted to save at passover, but instead He said to mark the blood of a lamb on their doorposts; again, another outward sign.

It was just a small appeal that I thought was pertinent to this topic of "crossing" oneself.

Blessings,

-Davide

[Rising_Suns]

Woops, sorry about that. I will leave so as not to distrub this thread any more.

Blessings,

-Davide

[arunma]

There is certainly nothing unbiblical about crossing yourself. Then again it isn't from scripture either. It an old Christian tradition (it must be old since both the EO and RCC both do it) though I don't know exactly how old. I don't find it any different than folding your hands or lifting them when you pray. That's also a nonscriptural but common tradition. The only problem people might have is if they don't want to be associated in any way with the EO or RCC.

I remember reading some relatively early church fathers who advocated making the sign of the cross. Unfortunately, I can't remember which authors it was.

Anyway, I don't really see anything wrong with making the sign of the cross. I don't do it. But I'm not offended by Christians who do so. Like Saint Paul said: what you do, do for the Lord.

[bleechers]

We do NOT cross ourselves to "announce" to God that we are praying or in some superstitious belief that crossing ourselves accomplishes something. It is a way of recollecting oneself and bringing oneself into the realization of Paschal mystery which is the center of our Christian faith.

From catholic.org

One of the main teachings of the early Church Fathers is that the sign of the cross is a declaration of defense against the devil. When you sign yourself, you are declaring to the devil, "Hands off. I belong to Christ; he is my protection." It's both an offensive and defensive tool.

...

Q: Why do Catholics use the sign of the cross with holy water upon entering and exiting a church?

Ghezzi: In order to participate in the great sacrifice of the Mass, you need to be baptized. Using holy water to sign yourself is saying "I am a baptized Christian and I am authorized to participate in this sacrifice."

When you make the sign of the cross when you leave, you say that the Mass never ends -- your whole life is participating in Christ's sacrifice.

....

Ghezzi: I think that it's not something to be taken casually. The sign of the cross has enormous power as a sacramental; it does not cause the spiritual thing it signifies but draws on the prayer of the Church to affect us in our lives. The sign of the cross is the supreme sacramental.

...

Q: When did the sign of the cross originate?

Ghezzi: The sign of the cross is a very ancient practice and prayer. We don't have any indication of it in Scripture...


Underlined parts by me.. IOW - Why Baptists have no business participating in "crossing" ourselves.

[arunma]

Underlined parts by me.. IOW - Why Baptists have no business participating in "crossing" ourselves.

What about Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, and others who don't view the ordinances (or "sacraments") in the same way as Roman Catholics? Since the opinions you quoted in your last post aren't recognized by any of them, can people from these denominations cross themselves?

[bleechers]

What about Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, and others who don't view the ordinances (or "sacraments") in the same way as Roman Catholics? Since the opinions you quoted in your last post aren't recognized by any of them, can people from these denominations cross themselves?

For the last reason...

Ghezzi: The sign of the cross is a very ancient practice and prayer. We don't have any indication of it in Scripture...

The bigger question is why do these others do it? I don't know of any Methodists that do this, but the others didn't move very far from Rome when they left.

Since Baptists are not Protestants, we shouldn't take leftovers and force them on Christians.

[ZiSunka]

I am speaking of the ancient Hebrew alphabet, not today's modern Hebrew alphabet. There is a bg difference; today's Taw no longer looks cross-shaped.

This is the ancient Hebrew Taw (Tau in Greek) script;

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_tav.gif


Blessings,

-Davide

I'm looking at the ancient hebrew alphabet and the tav still doesn't look cross shaped. Whoever told you that the mark was a cross was fibbing to you.

[bleechers]

I'm looking at the ancient hebrew alphabet and the tav still doesn't look cross shaped. Whoever told you that the mark was a cross was fibbing to you.

Good point. :thumbsup:

But the ancient for "Tammuz" does have a "T" in Phoenecian.

[ZiSunka]

Ah! Phoencian! What part of the Bible is written in Phoencian? :scratch:

[arunma]

The bigger question is why do these others do it? I don't know of any Methodists that do this, but the others didn't move very far from Rome when they left.

Since Baptists are not Protestants, we shouldn't take leftovers and force them on Christians.

But let's be honest, here. A good number of the things we do aren't found in Scripture either. The charismatic practice of raising one's hands in the air during worship isn't found in Scripture (unless one uses an odd interpretation of Saint Paul's statement "lift up holy hands"). Infant dedication isn't found in Scripture. My church celebrates Advent, Christmas, Holy Week, and Easter. None of those things are found in Scripture, with the exception of Easter. And according to Scripture, even Easter should be celebrated on the Hebrew day of 14 Nisan; it was church tradition that fixed Easter on a specific day according to the solar calendar. For that matter, prayer in any language other than Hebrew or Greek isn't found in Scripture. Greek was the church's official language until Saint Victor the Bishop of Rome (or Pope, for all the Catholics out there) began writing in his native language of Latin.

Baptists might not be Protestants, but the Protestant reformation has had an impact on us. Most of the influential figures in Baptist thought (at least at my church), such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, were Protestants. And chances are, they probably crossed themselves. I do not despise church tradition, which is why I'm not against this practice.

I think we need to remember that sola scriptura doesn't mean that Scripture is the only thing we ever read. It means that Scripture is the only writing that is infallible. Certainly we can base our worship around tradition. The very idea of holding one church service a week, with worship songs and a sermon, come from the tradition of the Jews. Just because something isn't found specifically in Scripture doesn't make it bad. If that were so, we ought to burn every copy of The Purpose Driven Life, which many evangelicals are so fond of. So I'm not sure I can see what anyone would find so objectionable about crossing oneself.

[Rising_Suns]

I'm looking at the ancient hebrew alphabet and the tav still doesn't look cross shaped. Whoever told you that the mark was a cross was fibbing to you.

See the last character.....

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/4_chart.html

Al http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_aleph.gif A Ox head Strong, Power, Leader Aleph א silent Bet http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_beyt.gif B, Bh Tent floorplan Family, House, In Beyt ב B, V Gam http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_gimel.gif G Foot Gather, Walk Gimal ג G Dal http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_dalet.gif D Door Move, Hang, Enterance Dalet ד D Hey http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_hey.gif H, E Man with arms raised Look, Reveal, Breath Hey ה H Waw http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_vav.gif W, O, U Tent peg Add, Secure, Hook Vav ו V, O, U Zan http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_zayin.gif Z Mattock Food, Cut, Nourish Zayin ז Z Chets http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_chet.gif Hh Tent wall Outside, Divide, Half Chet ח Hh Thet http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_tet.gif Th Basket Surround, Contain, Mud Tet ט T Yad http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_yud.gif Y, I Arm and closed hand Work, Throw, Worship Yud י Y Kaph http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_kaf.gif K, Kh Open palm Bend, Open, Allow, Tame Kaph כ K, Kh Lam http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_lamed.gif L Shepherd Staff Teach, Yoke, To, Bind Lamed ל L Mem http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_mem.gif M Water Chaos, Mighty, Blood Mem מ M Nun http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_nun.gif N Seed Continue, Heir, Son Nun נ N Sin http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_samech.gif S Thorn Grab, Hate, Protect Samech ס S Ghan http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_ayin.gif Gh Eye Watch, Know, Shade Ayin ע silent Pey http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_pey.gif P, Ph Mouth Blow, Scatter, Edge Pey פ P, Ph Tsad http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_tsade.gif Ts Man on his side Wait, Chase, Snare, Hunt Tsade צ Ts Quph http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_quf.gif Q Sun on the horizon Condense, Circle, Time Quph ק Q Rosh http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_resh.gif R Head of a man First, Top, Beginning Resh ר R Shin http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_shin.gif Sh Two front teeth Sharp, Press, Eat, Two Shin ש Sh, S Taw http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_tav.gif T Crossed sticks Mark, Sign, Signal,

[OrthoCanuck]

But let's be honest, here. A good number of the things we do aren't found in Scripture either. The charismatic practice of raising one's hands in the air during worship isn't found in Scripture (unless one uses an odd interpretation of Saint Paul's statement "lift up holy hands"). Infant dedication isn't found in Scripture. My church celebrates Advent, Christmas, Holy Week, and Easter. None of those things are found in Scripture, with the exception of Easter. And according to Scripture, even Easter should be celebrated on the Hebrew day of 14 Nisan; it was church tradition that fixed Easter on a specific day according to the solar calendar. For that matter, prayer in any language other than Hebrew or Greek isn't found in Scripture. Greek was the church's official language until Saint Victor the Bishop of Rome (or Pope, for all the Catholics out there) began writing in his native language of Latin.

Baptists might not be Protestants, but the Protestant reformation has had an impact on us. Most of the influential figures in Baptist thought (at least at my church), such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, were Protestants. And chances are, they probably crossed themselves. I do not despise church tradition, which is why I'm not against this practice.

I think we need to remember that sola scriptura doesn't mean that Scripture is the only thing we ever read. It means that Scripture is the only writing that is infallible. Certainly we can base our worship around tradition. The very idea of holding one church service a week, with worship songs and a sermon, come from the tradition of the Jews. Just because something isn't found specifically in Scripture doesn't make it bad. If that were so, we ought to burn every copy of The Purpose Driven Life, which many evangelicals are so fond of. So I'm not sure I can see what anyone would find so objectionable about crossing oneself.


Well put. I couldn't agree more.:thumbsup:

I still say if you want to cross yourself, go ahead. If not, then don't...but there is no need or reason to insist it is somehow a wrong or sinister practice.


Peace.

[Ginny]

But let's be honest, here. A good number of the things we do aren't found in Scripture either. The charismatic practice of raising one's hands in the air during worship isn't found in Scripture

Raising one's hands is the majority of the time (and should be) God led.I have done that during prayer feeling as if I am reaching out to God. I would do that on my own if never had been seen or "taught". That is God led...crossing one's self is a tradition that is "taught".


Infant dedication isn't found in Scripture.

Amen...nor will practicing it get this child any closer to Christ. Baptism is specifically appointed for those that consciously accept Christ. To do it anyway is a whole 'nother thread.;)

I do not despise church tradition, which is why I'm not against this practice.

Which is why I feel everything we do should be God led...just b/c it is tradition does not make it right. The same reason I would not practice "crossing myself" for the sake of not wanting to be perceived as Catholic. I feel we can all agree that for the most part, this is a Catholic tradition. Because of this reason, I would be deadset against it. For the sake of the rest of the world and what each individual's beliefs are, unless you want to be mistaken for another faith and the beliefs that go with that faith, then I would make sure we are to be led by God in the man made traditions that some "see nothing wrong with". If done openly, they could be a stumbling block, depending on your individual perception of the Catholic church and its' teachings coupled with your own ministry to the rest of the world that watches you.

So I'm not sure I can see what anyone would find so objectionable about crossing oneself.

[ZiSunka]

See the last character.....

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/4_chart.html

Taw http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/heb_a_tav.gif T Crossed sticks Mark, Sign, Signal,

That's not hebrew, ancient or otherwise. It's prehebrew phonecian.

[ZiSunka]

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/phoenician.htm

[arunma]

Raising one's hands is the majority of the time (and should be) God led.I have done that during prayer feeling as if I am reaching out to God. I would do that on my own if never had been seen or "taught". That is God led...crossing one's self is a tradition that is "taught".

I agree that raising one's hands ought to be led by the Holy Spirit. Personally I've never felt led to do it, but I certainly don't mind this practice either (after all, in the end I am an evangelical). But I've also worshiped with a friend at his Episcopalian church, and when they cross themselves, that's also led by the Holy Spirit. Both of these practices are the traditions of man, and nothing more. Are we to discriminate between the two, merely because the Catholic Church adopted that practice?

Keep in mind that since I'm not Catholic, I don't believe that the Catholic Church was founded in 33 AD. Rather, I think that certain European churches slowly merged with Roman bureaucracy, and evolved into what is today called the Catholic Church. Now, it is undeniable that certain church fathers mentioned the practice of crossing oneself, and the European churches that evolved into Catholicism happened to adopt this practice. I suppose that certain people, who wish to be as un-Catholic as possible, threw the baby out with the bathwater by declaring the practice a pagan tradition. My point in all this is that just because the Catholics do something doesn't make it bad.

Amen...nor will practicing it get this child any closer to Christ. Baptism is specifically appointed for those that consciously accept Christ. To do it anyway is a whole 'nother thread.

I agree entirely, the ordinance of baptism isn't salvific (I am a fellow Baptist). But if we practice the non-Scriptural (though not anti-Scriptural) practice of dedicating infants, I don't think there's anything wrong with crossing oneself, provided that the act isn't seen as salvific.

If done openly, they could be a stumbling block, depending on your individual perception of the Catholic church and its' teachings coupled with your own ministry to the rest of the world that watches you.

Actually, this is a good point. Within reason, we should never act as stumbling blocks to others. But I think you'll agree with me that this only goes so far. For example, recently on this board, someone (perhaps you, actually) brought up the issue of vegetarianism and evangelism, and pointed out that if one were to evangelize to people who had a longstanding tradition of eating meat, it might offend the people if a vegetarian Christian refused their food. I happen to be a vegetarian, so of course a discussion followed. We ended up agreeing that it would be better for the vegetarian to initially step out of his comforts, and partake of the meat in order to remove stumbling blocks. But it was also pointed out that at some time in the future, the people being evangelized will notice that the vegetarian gave up his own practices for the sake of the Gospel, and that they would credit him.

Likewise, if a certain people, evangelized or otherwise, are strongly opposed to Catholic practices, it might initially be beneficial for a catholic (with a small c) to refrain from making the sign of the cross in their presence. But eventually, the catholic Christian might expect these people to understand that he means no offense or blasphemy, and those individuals would have to begin tolerating his practices as well. Right?

[GreenEyedLady]

Yes, God looks to the heart first, but does that mean all outward signs are meaningless? Just a small passage; Ezekiel 9:4-6 speaks of the sign of the cross (Tau) to be marked on foreheads ("...but do not touch any man on whom is the mark"). It's interesting to note; God could have easily just looked into the hearts of people and spared those whom He wanted, but instead He gave a small responsibility to mankind as well.



OK, this statement makes no biblical sense.
Lets look to see what the Jews thought of crosses back in the days of Ezekial.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Deuteronomy 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Whoever told you this was not telling you the truth. If this was the case, then the Jews would also make a sign of the cross. We know that they do not practice this on thier foreheads, therefore it is not possible that Ezekial verse can apply. The fact that Jews concider it a curse to hang on a cross should tell you they would have never made the "sign" of the cross.

On another note:
I do find myself almost doing the sigh when I am about to do something that might take alot of faith. I never really go through with it but I did genuflect and make the sign of the cross ALOT when I was a Catholic.
I remember at the dinner table my mother, who was a devout Catholic, would have her hand at the starting position and to get everyones attention for prayer she would yell, IN THE NAME............
And then us kids would say, of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
Sometimes if we were really not listening she would have to say, IN THE NAME a couple of times before we repeated of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.


Thats so funny she used to do that!:D

GEL

[arunma]

I don't know...I rather like the idea that the holy cross of Christ was hidden in the message of the Old Testament prophets.

[JimfromOhio]

I am not a catholic however, I went to a Catholic Deaf School in Boston, I did cross myself but I don't do that anymore. However, when I hear someone sneeze, I do the cross like a pope and say "bless ya" :D

[ZiSunka]

But I've also worshiped with a friend at his Episcopalian church, and when they cross themselves, that's also led by the Holy Spirit.



I was episcopal for several years, with full membership at Trinity Cathedral in Cleveland, Ohio and I have never seen an episcopal cross him/herself except the ex-catholic converts. It's not something that is taught in the episcopal faith nor is it part of the episcopal tradition for obvious reasons.

[Skripper]

I was episcopal for several years, with full membership at Trinity Cathedral in Cleveland, Ohio and I have never seen an episcopal cross him/herself except the ex-catholic converts. It's not something that is taught in the episcopal faith nor is it part of the episcopal tradition for obvious reasons.

From an Episcopal website:



Question: I see people crossing themselves. Am I expected to? What's it mean?



Answer: As with many Episcopal customs, crossing oneself is optional. Making the sign of the cross was used from the earliest times to sanctify every action of daily life from morning to night. Presently it usually signifies giving or receiving a blessing.



http://www.christchurchcincinnati.org/newweb1/faqs_glossary/faq.htm (http://www.christchurchcincinnati.org/newweb1/faqs_glossary/faq.htm)

[ZiSunka]

Ah, yes the Cincinnati Diocese. We were all familiar with how very catholic that diocese is.

[arunma]

I was episcopal for several years, with full membership at Trinity Cathedral in Cleveland, Ohio and I have never seen an episcopal cross him/herself except the ex-catholic converts. It's not something that is taught in the episcopal faith nor is it part of the episcopal tradition for obvious reasons.

That's odd. When I visited an Episcopal church, several of the congregants crossed themselves. And there were only twelve people in attendance (it's a small church)!

[ZiSunka]

That's odd. When I visited an Episcopal church, several of the congregants crossed themselves. And there were only twelve people in attendance (it's a small church)!

As I said, there were people who crossed themselves, but those were ex-catholics. People who came to the episcopal church from other denoms or who were "born" episcopal do not usually do it. It is not frowned upon, but it is not taught to the children or new converts, either. It is permissible but not required.

But I already said all that! :D

[Filia Mariae]

From catholic.org

One of the main teachings of the early Church Fathers is that the sign of the cross is a declaration of defense against the devil. When you sign yourself, you are declaring to the devil, "Hands off. I belong to Christ; he is my protection." It's both an offensive and defensive tool.

...

Q: Why do Catholics use the sign of the cross with holy water upon entering and exiting a church?

Ghezzi: In order to participate in the great sacrifice of the Mass, you need to be baptized. Using holy water to sign yourself is saying "I am a baptized Christian and I am authorized to participate in this sacrifice."

When you make the sign of the cross when you leave, you say that the Mass never ends -- your whole life is participating in Christ's sacrifice.

....

Ghezzi: I think that it's not something to be taken casually. The sign of the cross has enormous power as a sacramental; it does not cause the spiritual thing it signifies but draws on the prayer of the Church to affect us in our lives. The sign of the cross is the supreme sacramental.

...

Q: When did the sign of the cross originate?

Ghezzi: The sign of the cross is a very ancient practice and prayer. We don't have any indication of it in Scripture...



Bleechers,

It would be helpful if you would have quoted Ghezzi's full answer in context, particularly in reference to Galatians 6:17.:)

[ZiSunka]

Bleechers,

It would be helpful if you would have quoted Ghezzi's full answer in context, particularly in reference to Galatians 6:17.:)

Are you saying that what Bleechers posted is wrong?

[Filia Mariae]

I'm simply saying that he cut the man he was quoting off in mid-sentence and deprived the readership of the benefit of hearing Ghezzi's complete answer. Surely, when one responds to a question, one wishes the listener/reader to hear the whole answer and not the first half of a sentence.

[P_G]

--<<MOD HAT ON>>--
http://www.nehemiah-center.org/kippot.gif

I honestly hate posting Mod Hats
I dislike it even more when it is the second time one is posted in the same thread!

Now all of you who are NOT BAPTIST or ANABAPTIST
No matter how facsinating you find this thread
No matter how much you feel the need to set straight the discussion

I am telling you to NOT!

There will be no further nice warnings as posts in the thread
Just official warnings on your record.

I would also please ask the Baptists and Anabaptists to please be warry of their posts that they do not bait others who cannot debate in this forum

Thank you so much for you attention and understanding

Pastor George
Senior Administrator
B/A CPR

[Iollain]

Psa 63:3 Because thy lovingkindness [is] better than life, my lips shall praise thee.


Psa 63:4 Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name.


Psa 134:2 Lift up your hands [in] the sanctuary, and bless the LORD.

Psa 28:2 Hear the voice of my supplications, when I cry unto thee, when I lift up my hands toward thy holy oracle.

Lam 3:41 Let us lift up our heart with [our] hands unto God in the heavens.

1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.


I don't think crossing yourself is in the Written Word, but lifting your hands to the Lord is.

[arunma]

Psa 63:3 Because thy lovingkindness [is] better than life, my lips shall praise thee.


Psa 63:4 Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name.


Psa 134:2 Lift up your hands [in] the sanctuary, and bless the LORD.

Psa 28:2 Hear the voice of my supplications, when I cry unto thee, when I lift up my hands toward thy holy oracle.

Lam 3:41 Let us lift up our heart with [our] hands unto God in the heavens.

1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.


I don't think crossing yourself is in the Written Word, but lifting your hands to the Lord is.

Like I said, lifting up one's hands is only Scriptural if you take the words "lifting up holy hands" literally. As I said, I'm not against the lifting up of hands in church. I don't personally do it, but most people at my church do, and I think it's fine. But I also think that there's nothing wrong with crossing oneself. After all, just because it isn't mentioned in the Bible doesn't make it bad. Piano music isn't mentioned in the Bible, but should we destroy our church pianos? And my pastor uses a microphone when speaking to the congregation. Should we get rid of that too?

Certainly not. And for that reason, I am also not against making the sign of the cross.

[Iollain]

If people think there is some kind of power of protection from crossing themselves i think they should think again, that is putting power of your ability to sign a cross over something up there with sprinkling herbs about for protection...tis silly.

[ZiSunka]

But I also think that there's nothing wrong with crossing oneself. After all, just because it isn't mentioned in the Bible doesn't make it bad. Piano music isn't mentioned in the Bible, but should we destroy our church pianos? And my pastor uses a microphone when speaking to the congregation. Should we get rid of that too?


If you feel you have to play piano music before praying to get God's attention or to let him know you are getting ready to pray, or if you play the piano as a form of prayer, or if you plat piano instead of actually talking to God, then yes, it's time to get rid of that, too.

Anything that waters down the fact that Christ gave us total authority to speak to God directly anytime we want, that thing is an unnecessary ritual. It has more in common with the hindu practice of doing hand and body movements before, after or instead of prayer than it does with the Christian reality that God hears us whenever we speak to him.

[GreenEyedLady]

If people think there is some kind of power of protection from crossing themselves i think they should think again, that is putting power of your ability to sign a cross over something up there with sprinkling herbs about for protection...tis silly.

When I was a RC, I would make the sign of the cross before i did anything scary. I would do it if I got scared about something or I heard some bad news. Its not always before we pray. We used that sign in everday life, and in the church, we used that sign to show respect to the huge crucifx hanging in church while bending half way on one knee (genufecting). You don't say anything, you just do it. So, I think that I used it as a superstion sort of. That is my experience.

GEL

[MbiaJc]

GreenEyedLady

I think that I used it as a superstion sort of. That is my experience.


Why would you think that, if I may ask. I am trying to understand the Catholic Church.

[GreenEyedLady]

Why would you think that, if I may ask. I am trying to understand the Catholic Church.

It was like kissing the cross hanging from my neck for luck. That kinda thing. You know? Does that make more sense? Making the sign of the cross is not just something that I did as a Catholic to "praise" God. I did it when I was scared as if to ward off bad luck, when I got bad news, if I almost got hit by a car, etc.

GEL

[arunma]

If you feel you have to play piano music before praying to get God's attention or to let him know you are getting ready to pray, or if you play the piano as a form of prayer, or if you plat piano instead of actually talking to God, then yes, it's time to get rid of that, too.

Although I quoted Lambslove, I would actually like to direct this at GEL. GEL, you've mentioned that your experience with Catholicism has caused you to turn the sign of the cross into a superstition. As Lambslove has said, a lot of things can be turned into superstitions, but that doesn't make those things bad. Perhaps the sign of the cross has become a stumbling block to you, and far be it from me to put stumbling blocks in the way of the believer. But there are many Christians who genuinely do not use the sign of the cross as a superstitious act, and I think it's wrong for us to condemn them. Provided that this method of worship is not seen as a replacement for a true relationship with Christ, do you agree that it isn't ungodly?

Anything that waters down the fact that Christ gave us total authority to speak to God directly anytime we want, that thing is an unnecessary ritual. It has more in common with the hindu practice of doing hand and body movements before, after or instead of prayer than it does with the Christian reality that God hears us whenever we speak to him.

I completely agree with that. Actually, I practiced Hinduism for most of my life, so I'm familiar with the idea of doing empty rituals without having any relationship with God. This legalism is precisely what roused the anger of Christ in the practices of the Pharisees, and it has no place in the church. But just as no one should use the sign of the cross in a legalistic manner, nor should we be legalistic about not using the sign of the cross. I think that it's quite possible to be a good Christian, and to make the sign of the cross during worship. Right?

[GreenEyedLady]

[QUOTE=arunma] Provided that this method of worship is not seen as a replacement for a true relationship with Christ, do you agree that it isn't ungodly?
No, I do not. I do not agree that I bowed down, preformed the sign of the cross every time i stood in front of a graven image at church. I do not believe that is godly.



But just as no one should use the sign of the cross in a legalistic manner, nor should we be legalistic about not using the sign of the cross. I think that it's quite possible to be a good Christian, and to make the sign of the cross during worship. Right?

No, I don't believe it is right to do only because I did it mostly when bowing before the crucifix, which is a graven image. I don't do it now because I feel its not right. And honestly, no one has ever preached to me about this. This is just a conviction I got from God to stop doing it. To Him, it means nothing. I believe He prefers us fellowshipping with Him by reading his Word, singing praises to him, and praying on our knees. This is what I believe God wants from me, not some motion i did with my hands out of habit.
I am not going to sit here and bash people for making the sign of the cross. That is between them and the Lord. I am just telling my personal experience with it.
I do have to say, that I did preform it in front of the alter/cross at church, before I entered and left church, during the mass, when I prayed to give thanks, and any other time i prayed, I started with the sign of the cross.
So I guess some of it could be considered "praise" but I know myself and ALOT more Catholics out there that do it to just ward off bad vibes.

GEL

Ps. Do you still bow down to those Hindu gods?

[MbiaJc]

It was like kissing the cross hanging from my neck for luck. That kinda thing. You know? Does that make more sense? Making the sign of the cross is not just something that I did as a Catholic to "praise" God. I did it when I was scared as if to ward off bad luck, when I got bad news, if I almost got hit by a car, etc.

GEL

I pray when I get in trouble, wouldn't crossing be maybe the same as calling on God to help you? Are am I not looking at that the right way?

[arunma]

I am not going to sit here and bash people for making the sign of the cross. That is between them and the Lord. I am just telling my personal experience with it.

In that case, I think I understand your position on the issue. If you have a certain conviction requiring you to not make the sign of the cross, then far be it from me to oppose the Holy Spirit. All I'm trying to say is that we should not judge those in other denominations, or even in our own denomination (if such Baptists exist), who feel moved by the Spirit to make the sign of the cross. And from what you say, I think you agree.

So I guess some of it could be considered "praise" but I know myself and ALOT more Catholics out there that do it to just ward off bad vibes.

Many Catholics do consider it praise, which is why I feel compelled to defend their beliefs. I agree that it's wrong to make the sign of the cross (or to do anything else) in a superstitious manner.

Ps. Do you still bow down to those Hindu gods?

Of course not. That would be idolatry, which is a sin worthy of anathema. Why do you ask?

[GreenEyedLady]

Of course not. That would be idolatry, which is a sin worthy of anathema. Why do you ask?

Well, I made the sign of the cross before many graven images such as the cross, statues etc. therefore, you can understand why God has convicted me NOT to do that anymore!

[arunma]

Well, I made the sign of the cross before many graven images such as the cross, statues etc. therefore, you can understand why God has convicted me NOT to do that anymore!

Well, like I said, if that's your personal conviction, then I certainly wouldn't oppose the Holy Spirit. But from my point of view, since Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity, I don't view it as anything like idolatrous religions such as Hinduism.

[ZiSunka]

I completely agree with that. Actually, I practiced Hinduism for most of my life, so I'm familiar with the idea of doing empty rituals without having any relationship with God. This legalism is precisely what roused the anger of Christ in the practices of the Pharisees, and it has no place in the church. But just as no one should use the sign of the cross in a legalistic manner, nor should we be legalistic about not using the sign of the cross. I think that it's quite possible to be a good Christian, and to make the sign of the cross during worship. Right?

It's possible, but if you go into a catholic church or a catholic function of any sort (like a church picnic, etc, even some bingo games start with prayer!) and DO NOT make the sign of the cross before the prayer begins, it makes people scowl at you and assume that you are mocking them. I know from years of experience at many catholic churches that when everyone is making the sign of the cross, you better be doing it too or else. So, for catholics, crossing yourself is part and parcel of the practice of their religion and they are very legalistic about it. They would never dream of praying without it and sometimes use it in lieu of an actual prayer, much like a hindu prayer wheel or buddhist candles. Thus, it is a legalism, much more so than the refusal to cross one's self, because they don't think God will notice their prayer unless they do it.

[Filia Mariae]

It's possible, but if you go into a catholic church or a catholic function of any sort (like a church picnic, etc, even some bingo games start with prayer!) and DO NOT make the sign of the cross before the prayer begins, it makes people scowl at you and assume that you are mocking them. I know from years of experience at many catholic churches that when everyone is making the sign of the cross, you better be doing it too or else. So, for catholics, crossing yourself is part and parcel of the practice of their religion and they are very legalistic about it. They would never dream of praying without it and sometimes use it in lieu of an actual prayer, much like a hindu prayer wheel or buddhist candles. Thus, it is a legalism, much more so than the refusal to cross one's self, because they don't think God will notice their prayer unless they do it.

This is unbelievably rude and offensive. You are inaccurate and have no idea what you are talking about. Please stop making accusations about others based on your personal assumptions and judgements.

[daveleau]

Closed for staff review.