How "evangelical" is your Coptic Church?

[CopticGirl]

So I've noticed how non-evangelical my Coptic Orthodox Church is, and was wondering what everyone elses is like? I wish my church made more of an effort to bring people in and to welcome outsiders.

What do you all think?

God Bless.

[Kripost]

What exactly do you mean when you say 'non-evangelical'?

[CopticGirl]

What I mean is that we do not do a lot to go out and bring people to our church. If you look at a lot of Protestant Churches, they have organizations just for the purpose of "winning" people and getting them to convert to Christianity.

My church, while we do not by any means discourage people from converting to Orthodoxy, we on the other hand do not have any sort of group that is out there looking to bring people to Christ or our Church, and I just think it would be nice if we made more of an effort--especially whereas a lot of people know very little about Orthodoxy

God Bless,
Elizabeth

[Kas]

I think that your right!

[Psalm40]

What I mean is that we do not do a lot to go out and bring people to our church. If you look at a lot of Protestant Churches, they have organizations just for the purpose of "winning" people and getting them to convert to Christianity.

My church, while we do not by any means discourage people from converting to Orthodoxy, we on the other hand do not have any sort of group that is out there looking to bring people to Christ or our Church, and I just think it would be nice if we made more of an effort--especially whereas a lot of people know very little about Orthodoxy

God Bless,
Elizabeth

Honestly, this is something I've noticed in general about Coptic and all Eastern Orthodox churches. But I think it's due to the fact that most of the cultures from which the people come, have suffered persecution for their faith, and in the case of the Egyptian Coptic Church, it's illegal to evangelize. So maybe there's a hesitancy to do "outreach." Plus, it is also a cultural center, in the sense that it is not only where Orthodox worship, but it is where they assemble for many "social" or "cultural" events in North America. So the focus is more on the immediate cultural community than the idea of evangelizing.

Not a complaint, just an observation. What do you think?

I've never been to a Coptic Liturgy but I have been to Greek, Russian, Serbian, Romanian and Ukrainian Orthodox liturgies.

[Irish Melkite]

What I mean is that we do not do a lot to go out and bring people to our church. If you look at a lot of Protestant Churches, they have organizations just for the purpose of "winning" people and getting them to convert to Christianity.

My church, while we do not by any means discourage people from converting to Orthodoxy, we on the other hand do not have any sort of group that is out there looking to bring people to Christ or our Church, and I just think it would be nice if we made more of an effort--especially whereas a lot of people know very little about Orthodoxy

Elizabeth,

As Psalm noted, this is seemingly an extremely common problem among the Eastern and Oriental Churches - both Orthodox and Catholic. It has been a major topic of discussion on the Byzantine Forum (http://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php) of late.

In regard to your Church, though, what I think it does do extraordinarily well is its Youth Ministry, an issue of as much or more import, given its effect on retention of the next generation. The precedence accorded to the Youth Bishopric and COYA are unmatched among the other Eastern and Oriental Churches, although there are some which do a very good job in this regard.

Many years,

Neil

[CopticGirl]

Psalm40,
I think you make some good points. Culture probably does have a lot to do with it.

I've never been to a Coptic Liturgy but I have been to Greek, Russian, Serbian, Romanian and Ukrainian Orthodox liturgies.
If you get a chance, you should definately attend a Coptic Liturgy. Depending upon your location, it could be in english, arabic and/or coptic. But whatever language, it is a beautiful service. If you are ever interested, I would be more than happy to help you find a church in your area. :)

Neil,
One thing I have noticed about the youth of my church, is that rarely do you see/hear them doubting the church teachings. They usually believe what they are taught, and have strong faith. It usually comes down to whether or not they put that faith into practice. A lot of the time, the youth will stop attending in high school, yet return a few years later on their own, stronger in faith than ever before.

So Neil, I assume you are the same Irish Melkite that I see around Catholic.com? :)

God Bless

[Irish Melkite]

So Neil, I assume you are the same Irish Melkite that I see around Catholic.com? :)

Elizabeth,

That's me, if that's the CA website. I don't spend a lot of time there because I find the general tenor of the postings to be way too polemical for my tastes. My "home" is really the Byzantine Forum, but I post at about a half-dozen EC/EO/OO/OC forums - always under this same nick.

Many years,

Neil

[Rilian]

CopticGirl, how common is it for non-Copts to convert?

[CopticGirl]

In my Church, in the Boston area, most of the non-Copts converted in order to marry a Coptic Christian.

So there are not that many. Maybe a dozen or so.

But, I kind of assume my church is a little different than those in areas such as California, New Jersey, and Australia where there are a LOT of Coptic Churches in a small area.

God Bless.

[Rilian]

How often do you get visitors who aren't ethnic Copts?

[Irish Melkite]

In my Church, in the Boston area, most of the non-Copts converted in order to marry a Coptic Christian.

So there are not that many. Maybe a dozen or so.

Elizabeth,

You're speaking of St. Mark's out in Natick, I presume? (It's the only Coptic parish I know of in the area - although there are two Ethiopian Tewahedo parishes, in Boston and Cambridge, if I remember correctly).

But, I kind of assume my church is a little different than those in areas such as California, New Jersey, and Australia where there are a LOT of Coptic Churches in a small area.

I think it varies considerably from one parish to another. I have Coptic friends on a couple of forums who indicate that, in those which are heavily populated by recent immigrants and served by clergy who themselves are immigrant, language factors are, understandably a barrier to evangelization. That is the same type of issue that afflicts many of the Eastern and Oriental Churches, Orthodox and Catholic.

I think one has to keep in mind that, for many, becoming acquainted with our Churches involves a whole process of inculturation, particularly given the ethnicity of our parishes. Frequently, the "smells and bells" are initially attracting and some inquiry into our theosis follows - but - our Churches tend to be a 'family' and 'family' is more than liking the pirohi, the fataya, the mahshy, the lahmajun, or whatever other appetizer serves as the big draw at the annual food fair weekend. Anyone intending to make a change needs to be certain that they feel comfortable not only with the spirituality, but with the community with whom they will share and explore and develop that spirituality. Not that one has to become Egyptian to be a Copt, Lebanese to be a Melkite, Greek to be a Greek, etc. - heck, you don't even have to like the pirohi or fataya or mahshy or lahmajun (but, if you don't, what's wrong with you anyway ;) ). You can always stand behind the counter and serve those with more sophisticated taste-buds :D . But, if one's only involvement with their Church is to come to Liturgy, inhale the incense, drop their mite into the collection, and depart, I'm not sure that is doing anything that helps to give spirit and life to the Church community, that aids it to grow and sustain its ecclesial and theological mission.

Those who come into our Churches are often entering into a community whose ties to one another stretch back generations - sometimes back to a single village in the Levant, the Ukraine, or elsewhere. Our parishes are either very welcoming to outsiders who come among us or incredibly closed - there is no in-between. And we need, so very badly, to be welcoming. 30+ years ago I heard my then newly appointed Exarch, Archbishop Joseph Tawil, of thrice-blessed memory, warn that the seemingly conflicting dangers to our continued existence were assimilation and a ghetto mentality - seemingly conflicting concepts, but equally deadly. The truth of that statement has not changed. Any of us who believe that our temples will always be filled by those of our own ethnicity or culture are, I'm afraid, doomed to be found wrong - maybe not in our lifetime, or even that of our children - but, in time, if we don't reach out and embrace those who are curious and who would be one with us, we may find ourselves hugging only ourselves :sigh: .

Many years,

Neil

[CopticGirl]

Rillian,
Most visitor are those considering converting because they are dating a Coptic Christian. We have few visitors.

Neil,

You're speaking of St. Mark's out in Natick, I presume? (It's the only Coptic parish I know of in the area - although there are two Ethiopian Tewahedo parishes, in Boston and Cambridge, if I remember correctly).



Yep! That is the one! Do you live in MA? Have you ever been to my church? There is actually another Coptic Orthodox Church in Charlton, MA, which is part of a Spiritual Vineyard that we started to build maybe 6 years ago. It's a beautiful area.


I think it varies considerably from one parish to another. I have Coptic friends on a couple of forums who indicate that, in those which are heavily populated by recent immigrants and served by clergy who themselves are immigrant, language factors are, understandably a barrier to evangelization. That is the same type of issue that afflicts many of the Eastern and Oriental Churches, Orthodox and Catholic.



I assumed that the situation is different in California, because the first Coptic Church in America was started there in 1969. They have since developed so much in that area. There are a lot of churches, and a monastery. As for St. Mark's in Natick, we have been there since the mid 1980's. So my church is not that old, and there are still a lot of immigrants. We have 4 priests in my church, all of which were born and raised in Egypt. So, I think the situation in my church will change over the years.

The reason I brought this whole topic up is because both my sister and I are dating Americans who are not Orthodox, yet are looking into converting. I think for them it is difficult to attend our church because they stick out like a sore thumb because there are very few Americans in my church.


Anyone intending to make a change needs to be certain that they feel comfortable not only with the spirituality, but with the community with whom they will share and explore and develop that spirituality.

This is very important. No one wants to join a church in which they feel unwelcome or out of place.


Frequently, the "smells and bells" are initially attracting and some inquiry into our theosis follows - but - our Churches tend to be a 'family' and 'family' is more than liking the pirohi, the fataya, the mahshy, the lahmajun, or whatever other appetizer serves as the big draw at the annual food fair weekend.

:) It's funny how food is always the center of any gathering among Copts!

God Bless.

[Irish Melkite]

Yep! That is the one! Do you live in MA? Have you ever been to my church? There is actually another Coptic Orthodox Church in Charlton, MA, which is part of a Spiritual Vineyard that we started to build maybe 6 years ago. It's a beautiful area.

Elizabeth,

Yes, Lowell. I've only seen St. Mark's from the exterior unfortunately; the photos that I've seen of the interior look absolutely beautiful and I keep hoping that I'll get a chance to get out there and attend Holy Liturgy sometime soon. I know of Saint Mary's in Charlton and have seen the beautiful grounds. I didn't realize that it was a separate fully functioning church; actually thought it was a chapel used only in conjunction with retreats or other events held out there.

I assumed that the situation is different in California, because the first Coptic Church in America was started there in 1969. They have since developed so much in that area. There are a lot of churches, and a monastery. As for St. Mark's in Natick, we have been there since the mid 1980's. So my church is not that old, and there are still a lot of immigrants. We have 4 priests in my church, all of which were born and raised in Egypt. So, I think the situation in my church will change over the years.

The friends of whom I was speaking are both from California, so the situation apparently isn't much different there. I agree it will change over time, but if one considers that only about 35 years have passed, it isn't that surprising. Most of the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Churches have been established in the States for a bit more than a century at this point and it's only in the past 35-40 years that they've started to see much influx from non-Easterners into their communities, so it does take a while for Americans to get past the notion that "they're different".

The reason I brought this whole topic up is because both my sister and I are dating Americans who are not Orthodox, yet are looking into converting. I think for them it is difficult to attend our church because they stick out like a sore thumb because there are very few Americans in my church.

Your comment brought a smile. I still remember being "the red-haired Irisher", a very noticeable standout among the dark-haired, dark-complected Lebanese and Syrians when I began attending Liturgy at the Melkite Cathedral in Boston, almost 40 years ago. The hair is less red, there's less of it, I have long since ceased to be the only one of my heritage or the only non-Arab, and the men and women who greeted me warmly but probably a bit warily, have been my dear friends and fellow-parishioners for more than 3 decades now.

:) It's funny how food is always the center of any gathering among Copts!

Among all the Easterners and Orientals - the Westerners don't realize what they're missing (although Italians do a pretty good job of it, as well, I must admit).

Many years,

Neil

[CopticGirl]

Yes, Lowell. I've only seen St. Mark's from the exterior unfortunately; the photos that I've seen of the interior look absolutely beautiful and I keep hoping that I'll get a chance to get out there and attend Holy Liturgy sometime soon. I know of Saint Mary's in Charlton and have seen the beautiful grounds. I didn't realize that it was a separate fully functioning church; actually thought it was a chapel used only in conjunction with retreats or other events held out there.




When we bought the church, it was this plain brown boring building with no interior decorations. My father, who is an architect, did the designing for all the renovations on the interior and exterior.

St. Mary's holds two liturgies every Saturday, but not on Sunday if I'm correct. And I think a couple more on the weekdays.


The friends of whom I was speaking are both from California, so the situation apparently isn't much different there. I agree it will change over time, but if one considers that only about 35 years have passed, it isn't that surprising. Most of the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Churches have been established in the States for a bit more than a century at this point and it's only in the past 35-40 years that they've started to see much influx from non-Easterners into their communities, so it does take a while for Americans to get past the notion that "they're different".



So California isn't any differnet huh? That's too bad. I also think a lot of it will change as the first generation starts to have children of their own and as they get older.


Your comment brought a smile. I still remember being "the red-haired Irisher", a very noticeable standout among the dark-haired, dark-complected Lebanese and Syrians when I began attending Liturgy at the Melkite Cathedral in Boston, almost 40 years ago. The hair is less red, there's less of it, I have long since ceased to be the only one of my heritage or the only non-Arab, and the men and women who greeted me warmly but probably a bit warily, have been my dear friends and fellow-parishioners for more than 3 decades now.



Red hair huh? Then you really stuck out! ;) So I guess I should tell my boyfriend, who is also Irish and named Neil(!), that there is hope in the future. :)

Thanks for your words of knowledge!

God Bless.

[Kripost]

Your comment brought a smile. I still remember being "the red-haired Irisher", a very noticeable standout among the dark-haired, dark-complected Lebanese and Syrians when I began attending Liturgy at the Melkite Cathedral in Boston, almost 40 years ago. The hair is less red, there's less of it, I have long since ceased to be the only one of my heritage or the only non-Arab, and the men and women who greeted me warmly but probably a bit warily, have been my dear friends and fellow-parishioners for more than 3 decades now.


I thought I am the only one who feels out of place: imagine a chinese in a Ukrainian, Coptic, Melkite or Greek parish. ;)

[CopticGirl]

I thought I am the only one who feels out of place: imagine a chinese in a Ukrainian, Coptic, Melkite or Greek parish. ;)



Well, at least you have the same dark hair as the others, right? Maybe? :)

[Athanasian Creed]

What I mean is that we do not do a lot to go out and bring people to our church. If you look at a lot of Protestant Churches, they have organizations just for the purpose of "winning" people and getting them to convert to Christianity.

My church, while we do not by any means discourage people from converting to Orthodoxy, we on the other hand do not have any sort of group that is out there looking to bring people to Christ or our Church, and I just think it would be nice if we made more of an effort--especially whereas a lot of people know very little about Orthodoxy

God Bless,
Elizabeth


How does one "convert to Orthodoxy" - i ask out of curiousity ??

I met some Coptics who owed a computer store i visited about a month ago. They had a Cross on the wall - i asked if they were Christians and one of the owners replied "Yes we are, thank God !"

TIA,


Ray :wave:

[CopticGirl]

Well before converting you would probably go and talk to the priest in the church that you were planning on attending and he would give you some guidance.

But you are actually considered a member of the church by being baptized, christmated and then receiving the eucharist.

God Bless.

[denad]

Im apologize for my non-existing knowledge about churches and traditions that i havn't been to myself. But is there a website where you can read about the Coptic church? :)

[CopticGirl]

http://www.coptic.net/EncyclopediaCoptica/

Here's a site that explains a lot about us.

God Bless.

[erinipassi]

Hi Coptic Girl, I'm new to this forum, so still unsure how to use it, but I saw your posting about coptic orthodox evangalism and I wanted to reply to it. Just to let you know I'm also coptic, so you would know what is my background.

Perhaps, the greatest form of evangelism is being an example of Christ and an ambassador of Christ, so that all who come in contact with us can see Jesus by our conduct and behaviour, and not simply by our words alone. Jesus tells us lovingly, "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." (Matt 5: 16)

"Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me..........Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me" (Matt 25:34- 46)

People are trully touched by God's love in us, everytime we forgive others, everytime we support others in their hardships and everytime we remember in humility that we are nothing but dust, yet God treasures us so much. St. John the Baptist says beautifully, "..Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled.He must increase, but I must decrease." (John 3: 30)

So effective evangelism is starts with one person showing God's love to others and remembering at all times that Jesus must increase while I must decrease. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with holding an information session or a private meeting with a priest for those who would like to know more about Orthodoxy.

Yet, the greatest "outreach" starts with ourselves. I hear a lot of people complaining about how come we are not as welcoming to newcomers. But the question we must ask ourselves is, "Have I made every effort to go out of my comfort zone and welcome every new people in the Church?"

It all starts with one person and takes one person to make others who are new welcome in the Church. Others follow example. The Church that I attend is in Australia, and I greatly admire our youth in our Church who go out of their way to welcome new people (old and young) to our Church and make them part of the "one big family".

So lets start getting out of our comfort zone and be friendly to new people. By our friendliness, people will want to know who is giving us all this Love! It will catch on, because Love is very infectious!

Blessings and love
erini