View Full Version : Slain In The Spirit
jluvjesus4ever
2nd March 2005, 08:04 PM
could someone explain what this is? is it biblical for people to be falling over when someone prays over them?
Iollain
2nd March 2005, 08:08 PM
I believe it could happen.
ZiSunka
2nd March 2005, 08:08 PM
There is nothing in the Bible that supports the idea of falling down when in the presence of the Spirit, no.
jluvjesus4ever
2nd March 2005, 08:12 PM
okay, but has anyone here experienced it? i went to a church and asked for prayer and the person was like, i am going to pray for the fire of the Holy Spirit to fill you. so i'm like, okay. and everyone else around me is falling over. but she prays and she starts pushing me lightly but i knew it was her. and i stopped cause i didn't want to fall over if it wasn't God...i want authenticity
ZiSunka
2nd March 2005, 09:33 PM
I have talked to people who had that same experience. I had a neighbor who was into pentacostal experience and I saw her slain in the spirit once and I really think she just fainted because she had gotten herself so worked up in frenzied worship that she hyperventilated. That's the closest I ever come to having a slain in the spirit experience myself.
Hisgirl
2nd March 2005, 10:11 PM
"Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?" "Neither," he replied, "but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come." Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, "What message does my Lord have for his servant?" The commander of the Lord's army replied, "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so." (Joshua 5:13-15)
"On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of the finest gold around his waist. His body was like chrysolite, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude. I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; the men with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground. A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees." (Daniel 10:4-10)
"Above the expanse over their heads was what looked like a throne of sapphire, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking." (Ezekiel 1:26-28)
"While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!" When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified." (Matthew 17:5-6)
"Going a little farther, he [Jesus] fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."" (Matthew 26:39)
"As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself."" (Acts 10:25-26)
"All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: "Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!"" (Revelation 7:11-12)
"Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!'" And he added, "These are the true words of God." At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."" (Revelation 19:9-10) (For more examples, see Genesis 17:1-4, Ezekiel 43:1-3, 44:4, Mark 5:22-23, 5:30-33, 7:25, 10:17, 14:35-36, Luke 5:8-9, 12, 8:41-42, 46-47, John 11:32, Acts 9:3-4, 16:25-30, 22:6-7, 1 Corinthians 14:24-25, Revelation 1:16-17, 4:9-11, 5:7-8, 13-14, 11:15-17, 19:4, 22:8-9)
ZiSunka
2nd March 2005, 10:16 PM
Yes, there are a lot of examples of people falling down to worship, but none that they passed out or were out of control of themselves. I never heard of anyone falling backward to worship God.
In the slain in the spirit experience, people lose consciousness, they pass out. But none of the scriptural references are of people who pass out.
Lockheed
2nd March 2005, 10:50 PM
...okay, but has anyone here experienced it? i went to a church and asked for prayer and the person was like, i am going to pray for the fire of the Holy Spirit to fill you...
Our experiences do not matter, the Word of God is our guide.
I've seen many magic tricks, and slight of hand... I've felt as if I were in love, after knowing some one a short while. We are easily fooled by our emotions and by those who intend to deceive. Scripture states that the 'unlearned' are easily taken astray by false doctrine, we must therefore educate ourselves in the word of God.
In a previous post, a few supposed examples of people 'falling down' were given, yet none of them really has any relationship to the phenomenon called 'slain in the Spirit'. Most of the verses provided speak of people willingly bowing down, not being overpowered by some 'spirit' and forced off their feet.
Given the fact that a majority of proponents of said phenomenon also teach things filled with major error (including Modalism and Gnosticism), we should also treat this with suspicion.
As a final note, I was once a Charismatic, and had encountered and 'felt' these things. Once, during a meeting, I 'felt' the 'power of God' come over me and no one was touching me, the speaker was many feet away... years later I see no positive outcome of that event, nothing changed in my life. It wasn't until many years after, when I started actually studying the Bible apart from the Charismatic lens (read: knowing 1 Cor 12, 13 & 14, two verses in Romans 8 and other such things) that slowly came to realize that 99% of the Charismatic movement and its teachings were a sham.
The "Spirit" of Charismaticism has more akin with the Norse god Loki, who is mischievious and crafty. The Holy Spirit of Scripture does not seek to draw attention to Himself, but, rather, to Christ, the premimmenent theme and Figure of all of Scripture.
Savedsis
3rd March 2005, 12:32 AM
okay, but has anyone here experienced it? i went to a church and asked for prayer and the person was like, i am going to pray for the fire of the Holy Spirit to fill you. so i'm like, okay. and everyone else around me is falling over. but she prays and she starts pushing me lightly but i knew it was her. and i stopped cause i didn't want to fall over if it wasn't God...i want authenticity I have...What experienced seemed real...I seemed powerless to get up on my own.....I can't explain it.....
12volt_man
3rd March 2005, 12:35 AM
could someone explain what this is?
Allegedly, the idea is that the person is so overwhelmed by the presence of the Holy Spirit, that they pass out.
Of course, we don't see anything like this in scripture and there's nothing in scripture to support it.
Mostly, it's a combination of groupthink, heightened expectations and emotional manipulation.
I know that when I was caught up in the WoF mess, they would do this a lot.
is it biblical for people to be falling over when someone prays over them?
No. There's not one verse to support this.
Just as a note of trivia, have you ever noticed that people who worship God in the Bible always fall forward, on their face, but God's enemies always fall backward? Next time you see somebody being "slain in the Spirit", notice that they always fall backward.
I don't think that's really all that signifigant, just coicidental.
What is signifigant is this: if the Bible tells us that one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is self control, then why, according to people who practice this Unbiblical exercise, does the presence of the Holy Spirit lead to a loss of control?
MbiaJc
3rd March 2005, 01:13 AM
Yes, there are a lot of examples of people falling down to worship, but none that they passed out or were out of control of themselves. I never heard of anyone falling backward to worship God.
In the slain in the spirit experience, people lose consciousness, they pass out. But none of the scriptural references are of people who pass out.
:thumbsup:
SonOfThunder
3rd March 2005, 01:19 AM
Allegedly, the idea is that the person is so overwhelmed by the presence of the Holy Spirit, that they pass out.
Of course, we don't see anything like this in scripture and there's nothing in scripture to support it.
Mostly, it's a combination of groupthink, heightened expectations and emotional manipulation.
I know that when I was caught up in the WoF mess, they would do this a lot.
No. There's not one verse to support this.
Just as a note of trivia, have you ever noticed that people who worship God in the Bible always fall forward, on their face, but God's enemies always fall backward? Next time you see somebody being "slain in the Spirit", notice that they always fall backward.
I don't think that's really all that signifigant, just coicidental.
What is signifigant is this: if the Bible tells us that one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is self control, then why, according to people who practice this Unbiblical exercise, does the presence of the Holy Spirit lead to a loss of control?
Interesting point, I didn't know that about the enemies falling back. I looked up in John 18:6-7 when Jesus was in the garden and said "I am He' when the guards sought Jesus in the garden. They drew back and fell to the ground. In another version maybe it says backward.
The thought of someone being overwhelmed by God and falling on their faces in prayer or in awe of God is wonderful.
At time when I have prayed I have laid on my face just because I love God a whole lot and feel it is my rightful place in light of such Greatness. Also I feel it is a position of absolute surrender which is why I sometimes feel like I need ot pray this way.
In public we always face a danger of outward show. As humans we get lofty and could feel under pressure because others do it. Likewise with the lady who was praying for another, to gently give a little prod would come (perhaps) from her desire to have God working through her prayer for another.
I am wary of public show, I don't know if The Holy Spirit is in it or not so reserve my judgement.
It's just my opinions.
James
BT
3rd March 2005, 01:57 AM
"Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?" "Neither," he replied, "but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come." Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, "What message does my Lord have for his servant?" The commander of the Lord's army replied, "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so." (Joshua 5:13-15)
"On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of the finest gold around his waist. His body was like chrysolite, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude. I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; the men with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground. A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees." (Daniel 10:4-10)
"Above the expanse over their heads was what looked like a throne of sapphire, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking." (Ezekiel 1:26-28)
"While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!" When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified." (Matthew 17:5-6)
"Going a little farther, he [Jesus] fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."" (Matthew 26:39)
"As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself."" (Acts 10:25-26)
"All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: "Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!"" (Revelation 7:11-12)
"Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!'" And he added, "These are the true words of God." At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."" (Revelation 19:9-10) (For more examples, see Genesis 17:1-4, Ezekiel 43:1-3, 44:4, Mark 5:22-23, 5:30-33, 7:25, 10:17, 14:35-36, Luke 5:8-9, 12, 8:41-42, 46-47, John 11:32, Acts 9:3-4, 16:25-30, 22:6-7, 1 Corinthians 14:24-25, Revelation 1:16-17, 4:9-11, 5:7-8, 13-14, 11:15-17, 19:4, 22:8-9)
Um no. The posted scriptures have nothing to do with being "slain in the spirit" as it is practiced today. It's an unbiblical practice that you should avoid at all costs. Yet another form of "watch me worship".
Let me break it down for you like this:
1) In any case in the Bible (there are two I think Saul and Jeremiah) where a person falls down (not to worship as most of these above "proof texts" actually show and as has been noted) there is a significant difference. What is it? NO HUMAN INTERVENTION. Did ya get that? NO HUMAN INTERVENTION. That's right I said it. It was "of God" there was no man touching anyone, no pushing no "filling someone" "giving something" plainly, NO HUMAN INTERVENTION.
2) There are only two cases of being slain in the spirit in the NT. Ananias (Acts 5:5), and Sapphira (Acts 5:10), and I don't think you're looking for that.
ZiSunka
3rd March 2005, 11:56 AM
I think your statement, "watch me worship" is a good one that includes all sort of modern practices that are all about the worshipper and not about God! Excellent :)
Leimeng
3rd March 2005, 10:04 PM
~ The vast majority of Baptist and Liturgical services are "watch me worship" so it is rather lame to condemn another Christian of doing the same.
~ Paul talks about being in a trance, and John as well. So there are obviously scriptures that can support the phenome of being 'slain in the spirit.' Of course that requires that you actually read all scripture instead of just trying to justify your own doctrinal standpoint.
~ Being 'slain in the spirit' is not a new event in Christianity. There are references to the same sort of happening with John Wesley, John Whitehead, and many many others going back through Church history. Perhaps some intellectual inquiry into history might be in order?
~ Not sure where the idea of gnosticism in Charismatic circles came from but it is blatently false. One must wonder about those who readily accuse their brothers and sisters in Christ falsely when the Bible talks about another 'accuser of the brethren.'
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...
Peace,
Leimeng
Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~
~ Are you God's child? Is there a family resemblance?
BT
3rd March 2005, 10:13 PM
~ The vast majority of Baptist and Liturgical services are "watch me worship" so it is rather lame to condemn another Christian of doing the same.
We'd condemn Baptists for the same..
~ Paul talks about being in a trance, and John as well. So there are obviously scriptures that can support the phenome of being 'slain in the spirit.' Of course that requires that you actually read all scripture instead of just trying to justify your own doctrinal standpoint.
ROFL is that the best you got? Compare being "slain in the spirit" with a trance biblically? Like when Paul (or someone whether in the flesh or the spirit I know not was transported to the third heaven?). LOL
~ Being 'slain in the spirit' is not a new event in Christianity. There are references to the same sort of happening with John Wesley, John Whitehead, and many many others going back through Church history. Perhaps some intellectual inquiry into history might be in order?
ROFL. Well by all means if it happened to John Wesley then it must be "of God"... He did you know that some of those folks practiced divination as well? Guess that's "of God" too right? Puhlease
~ Not sure where the idea of gnosticism in Charismatic circles came from but it is blatently false. One must wonder about those who readily accuse their brothers and sisters in Christ falsely when the Bible talks about another 'accuser of the brethren.'
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...
Peace,
Leimeng
Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~
~ Are you God's child? Is there a family resemblance?
No one is accusing Charismatics of gnosticism. Do you even know what that means? I wonder. No one is making false accusations. If you wanna know where the phenomenon of being slain in the spirit started look to the occult. Specifically Eastern false religions... you'll find it there.
ZiSunka
3rd March 2005, 11:46 PM
~ The vast majority of Baptist and Liturgical services are "watch me worship" so it is rather lame to condemn another Christian of doing the same.
Funny, I don't remember condemning anyone... :scratch:
holyrokker
4th March 2005, 12:12 AM
I used to be in a "Charismatic" church that followed the whole "toronto blessing" thing.
What a sham! The results were far from godly!
BT
4th March 2005, 02:26 AM
You know holyrokker I'm from the Toronto area and when I was first saved the "Toronto Experience" was just happening and I saw things that were "the Spirit" that were not honoring to God, not Biblical, and if anything dishonoring to the cause of Christ. I hear what you're saying and I've experienced it firsthand.
Lockheed
4th March 2005, 02:49 AM
No one is accusing Charismatics of gnosticism.
Um... I am. The "second blessing" and "must speak in tongues to be saved" smack quite a bit of Gnostic secret-key kind of stuff. Now, there is a diverse bunch of Charismatics out there, from the Oneness folx to the Sovereign Grace 'Charismatic Calvinists', so not all of it is completely wack.
But after being a Charismatic for 20+ years I can say that all the Charismatic gifts displayed failed to produce the fruit of the Spirit... so I have to question the gifts.
BT
4th March 2005, 03:06 AM
Um... I am. The "second blessing" and "must speak in tongues to be saved" smack quite a bit of Gnostic secret-key kind of stuff. Now, there is a diverse bunch of Charismatics out there, from the Oneness folx to the Sovereign Grace 'Charismatic Calvinists', so not all of it is completely wack.
But after being a Charismatic for 20+ years I can say that all the Charismatic gifts displayed failed to produce the fruit of the Spirit... so I have to question the gifts.
Ok I get ya. The second blessing is heresy. The must speak in tongues is heresy. And as you alluded, neither is presented in every Charismatic church. There are a lot of good Charismatic churches out there. The main problem that I've found in my personal experience is that in Charismatic churches (that I've been to) there is no solid Bible preaching/teaching. It's all about "feeling" worse, the ultimate heresy "Word of Faith" is starting to creep in. Mind you I have known Charismatic churches that have fought that tooth and nail and God Bless them for it! But yeah the gifts, are gone that much is clear. The Gospel lives on, that will never die.
I've seen people barking like dogs aka "The animalization of the church" which is 100% occult behavior. I've seen people rolling down hallways laughing uncontrollably, people having to cover women up with blankets who are rolling around on the floor, people growling at the pastor while he tries to preach, chicken cluckers, brayers, laughers, folks "drunk" in the spirit, all kinds of nonsense.
Two good books for anyone interested to read:
Conterfeit Revival - Hank Hanegraff
Christianity in Crisis - Hank Hanegraff
He quotes directly (and provides the resources) on some of these "preachers" and examines the doctrines and behaviors from a Biblical perspective. Both great reads.
Lockheed
4th March 2005, 09:14 PM
Yeah, I've run the gamut... from Oneness to Word of Faith. I've seen the damage these things can cause. Perhaps that's why I'm quite critical of it. My parents are still very charismatic and have indicated agreement with both points. Recently I've tried to slowly steer them away from it though, but when so much of it is based on human experience and 'feelings', its quite hard. It's incredibly difficult to convince someone that something they 'saw' or 'felt' wasn't real.
'Charismaticism' in general seems to perpetuate the Corinthian problem where some folks thought they were superior to others cause they had one gift or the other. Whereas the message of Christ is that the least among us, the servant of all others, is the greatest.
That said, I'm quite certain that God still heals (even miraculously) etc. I would however challenge someone who thinks that 'tongues' is a "private prayer language" or a means of uttering prophecy and has some ongoing use in today's church or that God is revealing new extra-biblical 'revelation' through the prophetic gift or giving private "word of knowledge".
Some friends have asked me to write-up something on tongues... maybe this is the time.
Anyway, as to being "slain in the Spirit", I think one should ask the person who believes in that what exactly is going on while the person is being 'slain' and what is the purpose thereof... etc. I'm sure we'd get a dozen different responses all with filimentary biblical support if at all.
AudioArtist
5th March 2005, 08:00 AM
Is God limited to only revealing Himself in ways recorded in scriptures? Did He not come to Moses as a burning bush? Did He not send angels to give people messages? Do you remember Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus? Can't you see God is a creative, astounding, personal, empowering Being? Is He limited to our human ideas and theological stances? People have recorded powerful encounters with God down the centuries, and the Bible makes it clear He is indeed the living God. He is also the same yesterday, today, and forever.
People's refusual to accept this reality is very upsetting; all through the Bible, we see many examples of visions, trances, healings, manifestations, and miraculous events in both the Old and New Testaments. I am not starting a debate-it will an utterly futile waste of time as people are never willing to listen to those "crazy, decieved, over-emmotional uneducated" charistmatics; but to those you say God doesn't give people experiences and doesn't connect directly with people today: You sorely underestimate how powerful, life changing, and helpful such moments spent in God's Holy presence are. And you insult the intelligence of many people who have these experiences but do not follow nonsensical WOF teachings (particularly the yucky prosperity doctrine) and are not over emmotional exhibitionalists.
I hate drawing attention to myself, and I am always concious not to mistake emotions with Truth; but God's powerful, convicting Holy Spirit has driven me to tears in the reverant silence of a Church service before-and to dismiss such experiences as hallucinations and "damaging" is very ignorant indeed.
You cannot say all these experiences are false just because insane behavoire sometimes occurs in some services and movements; if anything, that proves to me that God is real, and Satan is also real (as are our own sinful emmotions.) The glorious, life changing and humbling experiences God gives us will of course be conterfeited by other factors and forces-like some people like to twist and distort God's word, our sinful natures and Satan likes to twist and distort these events and their purpose. We live by faith and not by sight-we should never seek the experiences, we must only seek Christ. However, out of grace and love, God (for reasons unknown to me) still blesses and shows Himself in a direct way to people today-people may cry, they may sit in complete stillness, unable to move, they may clap their hands and cry tears of you....you may point the finger at these reactions; but how else can you react to your God; a God of such compassion and might?
Some scriptures to prayerfully consider:
37When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen: 38“Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!”
“Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”
39Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples!” 40“I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”
13May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=2&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-26943a)] as the Spirit enabled them.
5Now there were staying in Jerusalem Godfearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism Cretans and Arabs–we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?” 13Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine."
It's Mee
5th March 2005, 08:17 AM
Would like to read more postings later
brotherjim
5th March 2005, 02:39 PM
Whoever,
This is not the best place for such a thread.
We are our brothers keeper, and when we do something that causes others to stumble and fall, we are just as, if not more, guilty for our lack of walking in Love than they are their sin of condemnational judgment or whatever. (Explained more fully in the passages of Romans 13:8 through 15:3a, and 1 Cor 8:1 through 11:34.)
Over on the "'Spirit-filled'/charismatic" section, there are Baptists and all manner of denominations represented, and any Christian may post a question--it's just that you are not allowed to debate the answers if you yourself are not a charismatic.
Thanks for "listening" and considering, brotherjim
Iollain
5th March 2005, 03:29 PM
I wouldn't say that everytime someone lays hands on someone that they are going to fall on the ground, but i do believe it can happen that the Lord is doing this. The first time i was at the Lord's Table with the church, i almost fainted twice, the Spirit was so strong. And once when i took a child to a youth concert, the Spirit was so strong people were bowing and crying, praying, which started in a wave from the back to the front. I know God's Spirit can be very strong at times, not a forceful Spirit, but strong none the less. I resisted the Spirit at the youth concert because i felt at the time, a little silly because of all the kids around me, which i shouldn't have done. So i just stood there and wavered back and forth to resist Him. I shouldn't have done that though.
Lockheed
5th March 2005, 05:24 PM
Is God limited to only revealing Himself in ways recorded in scriptures?
What God can do and what God actually does are two different things. God explains in Hebrews 1 that the pinnicle of all revelation is Christ.
Heb 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Notice that many of the questions such as "Did He not come to Moses as a burning bush?" are answered right here. Yes, God did speak to Moses through a burning bush, but that was "long ago". In these last days God speaks to us through His Son. We can know about the Son of God because He appointed His Apostles to write the revelation of the New Covenant to us.
If one wishes to claim that God continues to reveal new revelation, I'd have ask for the written evidence. Why are these revelations not being codified? And if they are, why are they not being distributed among those in Christendom?
Of course many have come claming to have new revelation from God... John Smith, E.G. White, and others have all started with this one premise: Scripture is not sufficient.
People's refusual to accept this reality is very upsetting; all through the Bible, we see many examples of visions, trances, healings, manifestations, and miraculous events in both the Old and New Testaments. I am not starting a debate-it will an utterly futile waste of time as people are never willing to listen to those "crazy, decieved, over-emmotional uneducated" charistmatics; but to those you say God doesn't give people experiences and doesn't connect directly with people today: You sorely underestimate how powerful, life changing, and helpful such moments spent in God's Holy presence are.
It's not a "refusal" to accept "reality", it is an acknowledgement that while such things did happen, as God was revealing His plan to the inhabitants of the Earth, yet now God has spoken to us in Christ, we know what He has spoken because we have it written for us in Scripture. The moment we accept ongoing revelation apart from the words of Scripture is the moment we start on a slippery slope to apostasy.
As I stated in my previous post, I certainly believe that God can and does still do miracles, yet I also know that my experience is subject to influence from the devil and my own sinful flesh. This is why God, through the Holy Spirit, guided the work of the Apostles to encapsulate the teaching of Christ in the Scriptures.
The most fantastic thing about the Christian faith is not that we have "powerful, helpful spiritual moments" but that we have reconciliation with God through the cross. And, while reading the God-breathed Scriptures we can still have "powerful" spiritual moments recognizing God's Word for what it is... truth. The truth of God's Scripture far surpasses any momentary, fleeting emotion I might feel... or strange experience I might encounter.
You cannot say all these experiences are false just because insane behavoire sometimes occurs in some services and movements; if anything, that proves to me that God is real, and Satan is also real (as are our own sinful emmotions.)
That is true, I cannot say these 'experiences are false'. In fact you're correct that Satan is real, and he is very interested in drawing the people of God away in to destructive beliefs whereby they forget the cross and the shed blood of Christ for some temporary ecstatic experience.
What I can say, however, is that God has provided for us a clear-cut guide as to how our church meetings and the like are supposed to occur. As Paul writes in 1 Corinthians, "God is not a God of confusion but of peace". It is apparent that if anyone has bothered to read 1 Corinthians 14 in these churches wherein 'barking' is occuring they're purposefully ignoring it and thus ignoring what Paul calls "the commandment of God."
It seems people are too intently hoping for some new word from God to bother studying the one He's already given.
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