Why do some think they need keys?

[GreenEyedLady]

Why do some people think keys are nessacary for heaven when Jesus said, I am the door?

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

IF we got the door, we don't need the keys right?
Thoughts?

[Gold Dragon]

I've never heard of these keys. What do some say are these so-called keys? Thanks.

[Crazy Liz]

I think GEL is referring to matthew 16:19

[Gold Dragon]

I think GEL is referring to Matthew 16:19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Yes. But what have those in search of these key identified as being those keys?

[repoland2]

Interesting... when I speak of 'keys' I am simply refering to answers to questions I ask. Actually, to be more specific, my missing 'key' is refering to a hidden answer that can answer one or more questions. A 'key' to me, is a missing link... needed answers.

Is this possibly what you mean?

[BT]

Yes. But what have those in search of these key identified as being those keys?

LOL that I'd like to know. If you're interested I bet you that Liz could tell you what that whole section on binding and loosing is all about. If you've never heard the true interpretation before you'd probably be surprised.

[SumTinWong]

Well tell us BT, I am waiting :)

[Gold Dragon]

LOL that I'd like to know. If you're interested I bet you that Liz could tell you what that whole section on binding and loosing is all about. If you've never heard the true interpretation before you'd probably be surprised.

I've heard (what I think you mean by true) an interpretation of binding and loosing regarding the rabbinical way of interpreting and applying the Mosaic law.

Here is one look at the binding and loosing passages, interestingly by someone from the Assemblies of God who are traditionally the most frequent abusers of this passage as being about the spirit realm. I commend them for being able to take a hard scriptural look at their own doctrine and finding it wanting.
http://www.cedarpark.org/CedarParkFtp/2000/binding.htm

My question was towards GEL about what folks she is referring to who feel they need these keys to heaven that appear to take Christ out of the picture of salvation and what those keys are to these folks.

[SumTinWong]

From the title I figured it out, GD, can't you?

[Gold Dragon]

From the title I figured it out, GD, can't you?

I didn't automatically connect this keys passage to the previous verse about Peter being the Rock and Apostolic Succession.

I did a search and found that most of the fundamentalist separatists criticize Catholics for their understanding of how they emphasize the apostolic sucession of Peter to the Popes who supposedly hold the "keys to the kingdom" made evident in Catholic Tradition.

Let's see what Catholics really believe about these keys.

Catechism of the Catholic Church : The Power of the Keys (http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a10.htm#II)

981 (http://javascript<img%20src=&quot;http://www3.christianforums.com/images/smilies/redface.gif&quot;%20border=&quot;0&quot;%20alt=&quot;&quot;%20title=&quot;what&quot;%20smilieid=&quot;29&quot;%20class=&quot;inlineimg&quot;%20/>penWindow('cr/981.htm');) After his Resurrection, Christ sent his apostles "so that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations."526 The apostles and their successors carry out this "ministry of reconciliation," not only by announcing to men God's forgiveness merited for us by Christ, and calling them to conversion and faith; but also by communicating to them the forgiveness of sins in Baptism, and reconciling them with God and with the Church through the power of the keys, received from Christ:527

[The Church] has received the keys of the Kingdom of heaven so that, in her, sins may be forgiven through Christ's blood and the Holy Spirit's action. In this Church, the soul dead through sin comes back to life in order to live with Christ, whose grace has saved us.528

982 (http://javascript<img%20src=&quot;http://www3.christianforums.com/images/smilies/redface.gif&quot;%20border=&quot;0&quot;%20alt=&quot;&quot;%20title=&quot;what&quot;%20smilieid=&quot;29&quot;%20class=&quot;inlineimg&quot;%20/>penWindow('cr/982.htm');) There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive. "There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest.529 Christ who died for all men desires that in his Church the gates of forgiveness should always be open to anyone who turns away from sin.530

983 (http://javascript<img%20src=&quot;http://www3.christianforums.com/images/smilies/redface.gif&quot;%20border=&quot;0&quot;%20alt=&quot;&quot;%20title=&quot;what&quot;%20smilieid=&quot;29&quot;%20class=&quot;inlineimg&quot;%20/>penWindow('cr/983.htm');) Catechesis strives to awaken and nourish in the faithful faith in the incomparable greatness of the risen Christ's gift to his Church: the mission and the power to forgive sins through the ministry of the apostles and their successors:

The Lord wills that his disciples possess a tremendous power: that his lowly servants accomplish in his name all that he did when he was on earth.531 Priests have received from God a power that he has given neither to angels nor to archangels . . . . God above confirms what priests do here below.532

Were there no forgiveness of sins in the Church, there would be no hope of life to come or eternal liberation. Let us thank God who has given his Church such a gift.533

I believe that apostolic succession is not the best way to interpret the "upon this Rock" and "keys of the kingdom" passage, but it is pretty easy to see why Catholics would choose to see this passage this way. However, this part of the Catechism must be taken in context with the part about wounds to unity.

Catechism of the Catholic Church : Wounds to Unity (http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm)

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

So while we may disagree with them about the keys being Catholic Tradition held by apostolic succession in the Pope and the Catholic Church, I think it is more fair to include the fact that Catholics recognize salvation outside of this succession and Tradition.

[Gold Dragon]

I just wanted to post the entire passage from Matthew that we are discussing so we can see the context of the verses.

NASB - Matthew 16:13-20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+16&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en)

Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"

And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."

He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.

Fascinating passage that has produced so many different interpretations and caused so much dissention among Christians. What did Jesus actually say here? Try to remove the whole historical backdrop of all the different schisms in the Church and interpretations about spiritual warfare.

[ZiSunka]

It was Peter's confession of faith in Christ that was the key to heaven, not Peter himself. And confessions of faith continue to be the keys to heaven. Whenever someone refuses to confess Christ, they remain bound on earth and in heaven, meaning they are still condemned under the law, but when they confess Christ, they are loosed on earth and in heaven, meaning they are free from condemnation under the law.

Just a quick thought on this whole passage. Jesus often spoke in metaphors and similies so using the metaphor of the keys for a confession of faith wouldn't be unusual or out of context for him. :)

[SumTinWong]

So while we may disagree with them about the keys being Catholic Tradition held by apostolic succession in the Pope and the Catholic Church, I think it is more fair to include the fact that Catholics recognize salvation outside of this succession and Tradition.
My how magnanomous of them, as if it were actually up to them.

[Gold Dragon]

My how magnanomous of them, as if it were actually up to them.

It isn't up to them. But they acknowledge it.

Just like it isn't up to us if Catholics are saved, but we can acknowleged that some of them are.

[Miss Shelby]

Why do some people think keys are nessacary for heaven when Jesus said, I am the door?

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

IF we got the door, we don't need the keys right?
Thoughts?I don't know. But I have heard individual Christians say that they each have the keys. Why think they personally need to have them, I do not know.

Michelle

[SumTinWong]

It isn't up to them. But they acknowledge it.

Just like it isn't up to us if Catholics are saved, but we can acknowleged that some of them are.
So I guess I am wondering why it is "fair to include" the passage that they think there is salvation outside the succesion and tradition, when it has no bearing on the conversation.

[repoland2]

GreenEyedLady, was THIS what you were refering to when you say keys, or where you talking on a more spiritual standpoint?

[Gold Dragon]

So I guess I am wondering why it is "fair to include" the passage that they think there is salvation outside the succesion and tradition, when it has no bearing on the conversation.

GEL's initial point was that some feel that the keys are necessary when Jesus is all we need. The Catholic view on protestants being saved without the Catholic "keys" would suggest that they do not view their "keys" as necessarily being needed for salvation, although their argument is that without their "keys" we have an imperfect communion with the Catholic Church, which we don't necessarily seek.

Catechism of the Catholic Church : Who belongs to the Catholic Church? (http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm)

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324

[ZiSunka]

But doesn't catholicism say that a person has to agree that the catholic church is the one true church and has all authority on earth (the magisteriim) in order to be saved? Christians who do not acknowledge the magisterium of the catholic church cannot be saved. They agree that some of us are being saved, but only those who agree to catholicism's terms.

[Miss Shelby]

But doesn't catholicism say that a person has to agree that the catholic church is the one true church and has all authority on earth (the magisteriim) in order to be saved? Christians who do not acknowledge the magisterium of the catholic church cannot be saved. They agree that some of us are being saved, but only those who agree to catholicism's terms.
This is a misconception, lambslove, and I am not debating you, I am simply telling you that you are misinformed about the Catholic teaching on salvation. You, as a Protestant, do not have to adhere to or even agree with Catholic teaching in order to be saved, according to the Church.This is simply untrue.

Michelle

[GreenEyedLady]

But doesn't catholicism say that a person has to agree that the catholic church is the one true church and has all authority on earth (the magisteriim) in order to be saved? Christians who do not acknowledge the magisterium of the catholic church cannot be saved. They agree that some of us are being saved, but only those who agree to catholicism's terms.

Yes the catecism would agree with this statment but some Catholics would deny it.

Christ is the Door. And what greater security has the church of God than that the Lord Jesus is between it and all its enemies? He is a door open for passage and communication. Here are plain directions how to come into the fold; we must come in by Jesus Christ as the Door. By faith in him as the great Mediator between God and man. Also, we have precious promises to those that observe this direction. Christ has all that care of his church, and every believer, which a good shepherd has of his flock; and he expects the church, and every believer, to wait on him, and to keep in his pasture.
~Matthew Henry Commentary

Yes, my point is that we have the door, why would we need keys?

[Miss Shelby]

Yes the catecism would agree with this statment but some Catholics would deny it. The Catechism is similar to the Bible in that it has very frequently been taken out of context and presented in misrepresntative ways.

I am not lying about what the Church teaches, and I resent the implication.

Michelle

[Gold Dragon]

Yes the catecism would agree with this statment but some Catholics would deny it.

If we are really interested in why other Christians think a certain way, like it is stated in the thread title, the best thing to do is ask them. Maybe we'll discover that they actually don't think the way we thought they do.

[RED that's ME]

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