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Shimshon
28th February 2005, 06:19 PM
Torah Observance
Is the outward show of your inward convictions.

What is your inward conviction?
I believe, have "trust"ing "faith"fulness in YHWH’s love. He Loved all mankind so much that he promised to make a family of children from us more numerous than the stars. (Avraham) He gave loving instructions to guide us in all his ways and teach us of his Inner being and purpose. (Moshe-Torah) He faithfully kept his promises and purpose as revealed through Yeshua.


To the Jew, do not continue to place your “faith” in the ACTIONS of Obeying Torah. This is your stumbling, believing that you will attain righteousness by applying legalistic observance of Torah commands to your life. Living in rebellion and rejection to the heart of YHWH. Love

To the Goyim, do not continue to reject “faith” in the ACTIONS of YHWH. This is your stumbling, living in rebellion and rejection to the heart of YHWH. Love


To the Messianic Jew, do not place your “faith” in the ACTIONS of Obeying Torah, along side of Faith in Yeshua. This is the same stumbling the P'rushim(rabbi's) entered into.
5 But some of those who had come to trust were from the party of the P'rushim; and they stood up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Torah of Moshe." 7 After lengthy debate, Kefa got up and said to them,9 that is, he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their heart by trust. 10 So why are you putting God to the test now by placing a yoke on the neck of the talmidim which neither our fathers nor we have had the strength to bear? 11 No, it is through the love and kindness of the Lord Yeshua that we trust and are delivered-and it's the same with them." 12 Then the whole assembly kept still as they listened……….13 Ya'akov broke the silence to reply. "Brothers," he said, "hear what I have to say. 14 Shim'on has told in detail what God did when he first began to show his concern for taking from among the Goyim a people to bear his name. 15 And the words of the Prophets are in complete harmony with this for it is written, 16 '"After this, I will return; and I will rebuild the fallen tent of David. I will rebuild its ruins, I will restore it, 17 so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, that is, all the Goyim who have been called by my name," 18 says ADONAI, who is doing these things.' All this has been known for ages. 19 "Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God.
The Jew was given Torah, but many did not take it to heart. They only wore it on their sleeve.(literally) But YHWH expressed over and over how it was the “HEART” that mattered to him. That a person could do all the things he commanded but if done as a ‘duty’ it was meaningless. However if it was done in love, in trusting faithfulness of it’s true intent it was seen as righteousness in the sight of YHWH.

Those who were seeking to be made righteous by legalistic observances were literally missing the boat. Yeshua clarified, revealed what was hidden within the Torah. That it was by FAITH in what YHWH promised that one attains salvation, righteousness. The Jew wore and lived all these ways and in them contained the revelation of Yeshua, but most remained blind to this. Yet many did not and attained righteousness by Faith.

Yeshua came to clarify for the Jew how far off they were. He fulfilled the promises he made about them, himself and what he would do about it. And so he was the savior to the Jew first, and then to the rest of creation. The Good News is that Yeshua was the fulfillment of Torah. He came as a kapparah for our sins, was sacrificed and then rose on the third day as prophesied in Yonah. He is what all Torah was pointing to, not righteousness through following physical Torah mitzvoth. These were a shadow and sign that pointed to Yeshua and the coming of salvation, righteousness to the children he created.

And they have passed away, in that they no longer are ‘observed’ in legalistic ways, as that was NEVER the way to observe them to begin with. They have passed from the physical to the Spiritual. They have now been written on our hearts, Jew first then Goyim.
I was always hung up on this verse, I will make a new covenant with the house of Isra'el and with the house of Y'hudah. Thinking that this means Goyim would need to become part of “physical” Yisrael. And they are. Yet, they are not part of “old covenant” Yisrael, but “New Covenant” Yisrael. First, both covenants were made with Yisrael. Goyim could enter into either covenant. This new covenant is/was made with Yisrael, then the Goyim were included. Just like the old.

However, Yeshua did not come to ‘correct’ the old covenant, because there is nothing to correct outside of men who would not follow it. He came to ratify and initiate the “new” covenant. Which places the old one inside of your heart. So again, cool we observe OLD covenant ways with the TRUE heart intent, right? Yes, and no.

Yeshua did not come to make it possible to “legalistically observe” Torah. He rebuked the Jews for doing this. He came to make it possible for the Jew to follow in trusting faithfulness, which was the TRUE intent of Torah. And he came to offer the same trusting faithfulness to the Goyim, which was the True intent of his promises, to bless both Jew and Goy.

So Yeshua has placed in union Yehudim v’Goyim. We are ONE in Moshiach, One in Yeshua’s LOVE.

Torah Observance is the outward show of your inward convictions. And I am fully convinced that Yeshua is the embodiment of Torah, the fullness thereof, and he has placed his Ruach HaKodesh in those who believe in what he has done, who he is, and what he will do. And this Spirit of Holiness is observing all ways given by YHWH ‘inLOVE and in TRUTH”. Not by mere legalistic “physical” observances.

To the Christian, does this mean we forget and forsake “physical” Torah Commands? Heaven forbid! We ‘observe’ them in Truth and Spirit. We know that observing them just for fact of mere observance will bring us nothing but the fate of 'old covenant' Yisrael. Exile and death. But, we are assured that LOVE for YHWH is the purpose of life and our ways and deeds will always reveal this love that was placed in our hearts.

If all Torah points to HaMoshiach Yeshua. Then all Messianics should point to Torah. But not Torah as ‘legalism’ or‘Rabbinicalism’ has defined, but Torah as YHWH has defined, Spirit, Truth, Love. There is no Torah against them. No instruction against them.

Yeshua came to take the sin of the world. Torah revealed the sinfulness of men. Yeshua took the sinfulness of men and destroyed it, hung it on the stake. Outwardly Torah condemns men, inwardly Torah justifies them. The outward expression of Torah only served to highlight the sinfulness of men. Conversely the inward expression of Torah only serves to highlight the righteousness of Yeshua.

We no longer wear Torah on our “outward” parts. We wear Torah in our ‘inward’ parts. Yeshua is the goal of Torah, and he lives within our heart. We live Torah inwardly, and it is expressed outwardly. We no longer wear Torah Mitzvot, we LIVE Torah Mitzvot.

Another verse that is worth questioning is
But when I saw that they were not walking a straight path, keeping in line with the truth of the Good News, I said to Kefa, right in front of everyone, "If you, who are a Jew, live like a Goy and not like a Jew, why are you forcing the Goyim to live like Jews?
Just how was Kefa “living like a Goy”? I don’t believe that he was eating unkosher, but this is not revealed either. What is, is that he was eating with the Goyim and when those who still observed Torah as the Prushim defined were showing ‘favoritism’ and refusing to even sit at the table with them. When Kefa and Bar-Nabba joined in it seemed more than Shaul could bear so he did what he said he does. Confronted the leader in public. And he accuses Kefa of “living like a Goy” and implies “why teach Goyim to live like Jews”?

This to me, along with all the other non-mentions of “physical” Torah observance by the talmidim leave me to understand that the Messianic Community was NOT observing Torah as “old” covenant Torah defined, but as ‘new’ covenant Torah defined. Not once can you find an occurance where they are said to be following ‘legalistic’ Torah. Yes, Shaul went into the Temple as a show that he did not ‘flat out reject’ Torah, as was being gossiped about. But, I do believe that observances like that could have been done in Spirit and Truth. And since the Temple was still standing it could be carried out as such. And do you realize that Shaul was on the road for “fourteen years”. He hardly ever went to Yerushalayim
1 Then after fourteen years I again went up to Yerushalayim, this time with Bar-Nabba; and I took with me Titus. 2 I went up in obedience to a revelation, and I explained to them the Good News as I proclaim it among the Gentiles - but privately, to the acknowledged leaders. I did this out of concern that my current or previous work might have been in vain. 3 But they didn't force my Gentile companion Titus to undergo b'rit-milah. 4 Indeed, the question came up only because some men who pretended to be brothers had been sneaked in - they came in surreptitiously to spy out the freedom we have in the Messiah Yeshua, so that they might enslave us. 5 Not even for a minute did we give in to them, so that the truth of the Good News might be preserved for you. 6 Moreover, those who were the acknowledged leaders-what they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by outward appearances - these leaders added nothing to me. 7 On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the Good News for the Uncircumcised, just as Kefa had been for the Circumcised; 8 since the One working in Kefa to make him an emissary to the Circumcised had worked in me to make me an emissary to the Gentiles. 9 So, having perceived what grace had been given to me, Ya'akov, Kefa and Yochanan, the acknowledged pillars of the community, extended to me and Bar-Nabba the right hand of fellowship; so that we might go to the Gentiles, and they to the Circumcised. 10 Their only request was that we should remember the poor - which very thing I have spared no pains to do.
What about all his offerings and sacrifices? What about his following the Mo’edim? And notice he only went "in obedience to a revelation" and I explained to them the Good News as I proclaim it among the Gentiles. To give the Good News. Not to "observe legalistic Torah mitzvot.

It is quite apparent to me that the old ways of Temple worship and ritual purification have been fulfilled by Yeshua and his coming. Yesterday we were to observe the Mitzvot physically, knowing of it’s true intent. Today we are to observe the Mitzvot Spiritually, knowing it’s true intent. Example; then we bore circumcision in our bodies, today we bear it in our hearts. Then we wore tzitziyot on our clothes to remind us of all YHWH’s mitzvoth and DO them, and be Holy to YHWH, today we are reminded of all YHWH’s mitzvoth by the Ruach HaKodesh (Spirit of Holiness) in our hearts and we are convicted by him to walk in ALL his ways. Then we observed times days seasons and months knowing that they all point to Yeshua and his work, today we observe YHWH’s times, days, seasons, and months knowing that they all pointed, and still point to Yeshua and his work. But we do these out of “memorial” not “duty”. We do them because they are teaching tools, shadows that reveal a LIGHT source. We don’t live in the shadows, we live in the Light of Yeshua. His Ruach lives in and through us and all we do should point to him and his promises. Done in LOVE TRUTH and SPIRIT, not legalism. Notice, even Yeshua who physically wore the tzitziyot declared to the woman who had touched them,
22 Yeshua turned, saw her and said, "Courage, daughter! Your trust has healed you." And she was instantly healed.
Notice it was not the fact that she physically touched the tzitzit, but her ‘trust’ that healed her. I would imagine if she would have placed her faith that all she needed was his shadow to fall on her, it would have been the same. It was not the physical manifestation that saved her, but the Spiritual one. Her FAITH healed her.

Torah Observance is the outward show of your inward convictions. Inwardly you are convicted by the Ruach HaKodesh to outwardly show your observance to Torah in Truth and in Spirit. Not in legalism and in bondage to sin. Torah was given so sin could be revealed. Yeshua was given so sin could be removed. If sin is removed because Yeshua is given, then Torah is faithfully revealed, in and through his children.


b,shalom
Shimson

Shimshon
28th February 2005, 06:20 PM
Here are some inward convictions of mine;



2 Cor 5:21

God made this sinless man be a sin offering on our behalf, so that in union with him we might fully share in God's righteousness."

Gal 3:26

For in union with the Messiah, you are all children of God through this trusting faithfulness;



3:28

there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor freeman, neither male nor female; for in union with the Messiah Yeshua, you are all one.



Acts 15:11

it is through the love and kindness of the Lord Yeshua that we trust and are delivered



Hab 2:4

the righteous will attain life through trusting faithfulness.



1 Yochanan 4:16

we have come to know and trust the love that God has for us. God is love; and those who remain in this love remain united with God, and God remains united with them.



Romans 6:11

In the same way, consider yourselves to be dead to sin but alive for God, by your union with the Messiah Yeshua.



6:23

For what one earns from sin is death; but eternal life is what one receives as a free gift from God, in union with the Messiah Yeshua, our Lord.



8:1

Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are in union with the Messiah Yeshua.

8:2

Why? Because the Torah of the Spirit, which produces this life in union with Messiah Yeshua, has set me free from the "Torah" of sin and death.



Mt 23:23

"Woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P'rushim! You pay your tithes of mint, dill and cumin; but you have neglected the weightier matters of the Torah -- justice, mercy, trust. These are the things you should have attended to -- without neglecting the others!



Mt 12:7

If you knew what `I want compassion rather than animal-sacrifice' meant, you would not condemn the innocent. This is why, on coming into the world, he says,



Mt 9:13

As for you, go and learn what this means: `I want compassion rather than animal-sacrifices.' For I didn't come to call the `righteous,' but sinners!"



Heb 10:5

"It has not been your will to have an animal sacrifice and a meal offering; rather, you have prepared for me a body.





Notice what Yeshua wants most of all is not legalistic observances, but inward heart convictions; compassion, mercy, trust, justice, freedom, love, faithfulness. THESE are the observances of Torah he desires, not legalistic physical shows of piety or duty.

:)

Sephania
28th February 2005, 06:33 PM
Shimson why are your posts so tiny? I can't read them. :(

yod
28th February 2005, 11:40 PM
Ok...whoever you are...what have you done with Shimshon??? ^_^

ShirChadash
28th February 2005, 11:49 PM
*Zem grins wide* Seeeeee yod! :D LOL See, I TOLD ya not to assume you know all the ins and outs of a person's stands on all things faith-related AND their intentions and the "look" of their faithwalk just judging from what they choose to post often about online ;)

*Zem ducks*

*Zem RUNS*

And Shimshon, :thumbsup:



:clap:

Ahavah
1st March 2005, 12:08 AM
Ok...whoever you are...what have you done with Shimshon??? ^_^Remember your Thread Yod..."They are Everywhere"? Yep...That spaceship landed in Oregon..not Texas. Hahahaa.:D

Tishri1
1st March 2005, 12:43 AM
Hi Y'all, I'm new today , even though I've been posting I still feel newish so Hi...I'm Tishri...How are y'all?

I agree with everyone! That's it in a nutshell really.

When I get a little selfish, and self absorbed I am so thankful for all the Mitzvot I do that knocks me off my throne back into service for Dad; at the same time I don't let my lack of Torah Observance dictate whether I'm His or not. It's a kind of tension I live with and am grateful for but....That's how most messianics feel isn't it?

See Ya, Tishri1

visionary
1st March 2005, 01:30 AM
Let He who is righteous be righteous still, and He who is Holy be Holy still.

Is this the outside and inside of the story?

Ahavah
1st March 2005, 02:33 AM
Let He who is righteous be righteous still, and He who is Holy be Holy still.

Is this the outside and inside of the story?:scratch:HUH?

visionary
1st March 2005, 09:37 AM
:scratch:HUH?



Is there a difference between righteous and holy and if so, is it to do with the inside and the outside of faith?Notice what Yeshua wants most of all is not legalistic observances, but inward heart convictions; compassion, mercy, trust, justice, freedom, love, faithfulness. THESE are the observances of Torah he desires, not legalistic physical shows of piety or duty.

Shimshon
1st March 2005, 03:18 PM
Let He who is righteous be righteous still, and He who is Holy be Holy still.

Is this the outside and inside of the story?Not if your implying that;

"righteous"=old covenant
and
"Holy"=new covenant.

But more like Echad being a compoud unity. Or, two sides to 'a' coin. Both are representing part of the whole. Both make up the whole. However both are not identical in form.

Yet, is there a difference between 'filthy' and 'wickedly'? To a degree, but on the whole it is 'sin'.

And, is there a difference between 'righteous' and 'holy'? To a degree, but on the whole it is 'perfection'. The will of YHWH for all his children. To be Holy and pure, righteous and clean.

visionary
1st March 2005, 03:53 PM
Not if your implying that;

"righteous"=old covenant
and
"Holy"=new covenant. Never considered righteous as old or new covenant... for our righteousness is in Him...same as our Holiness can only come from Him....

But more like Echad being a compoud unity. Or, two sides to 'a' coin. Both are representing part of the whole. Both make up the whole. However both are not identical in form. I think that is a good analogy... but was working more on the righteous... is found in the actions... while Holy is in the BEING.... which is a state of perfection.

Yet, is there a difference between 'filthy' and 'wickedly'? To a degree, but on the whole it is 'sin'.I see what you are saying.
And, is there a difference between 'righteous' and 'holy'? To a degree, but on the whole it is 'perfection'. The will of YHWH for all his children. To be Holy and pure, righteous and clean.You know where I took this quote from...
Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
There seems to be a distinction made, and I was trying to discern as to whether or not it was about the character of the individuals.... for example... when I picture "Holy" person, I picture someone who has spent a lot of time in the presence of Yeshua whether in vision or in person and the "Holy" is now eminating from them. I am equating shekinah glory with Holy for a discriptive visual.

Now a "righteous" person, I see more as the person who teaches people through prophecy, who lives, breaths, walks and talks before us in the footsteps of Yeshua.

Are these two people the same... yes/no... but they are both God's children... blessed with gifts from God. The one is continually before the throne worshipping God. They both have done both, but percentage of time with one or the other gives them the variance in chracter discription.

Revelation 4:10
The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Shimshon
1st March 2005, 07:11 PM
I think I see what your getting at. You see righteousness as the 'act' that brings about "Holiness"? You define righteous in 'verbs' but you define holy as a 'noun', a state. And this would work seeing how righteous is commonly used as an 'adjective'. "a modifier of a noun to denote a quality of the thing named, to indicate its quantity or extent, or to specify a thing as distinct from something else."

Yet, righteousness is a noun in and of itself. So a person who is holy is acting righteous, and a person who acts righteous is holy, in his righteousness.

As well as, when we believe in YHWH it will be seen as 'righteousness' (b'rsheet 15:6) it will be seen as we are Holy. (seperate only to/for YHWH)

And it will be 'righteousness' for us if we are careful to obey all these mitzvot before YHWH Elohekha. (d'varim 6:25) When we obey in Spirit and Truth we are Holy to YHWH.


But my prayer, in righteousness, is to see your face; on waking, may I be satified wit a vision of you. For YHWH is righteous; he loves righteousness; the upright will see his face. (Tehillim 17:15-11:7)

We should do everything 'righteousness' requires (Mt 3:15)

We who pursue righteousness will attain the Kingdom (Mt 5:10)

Yochanan came to us showing the path to righteousness, and many wouldn't trust him. (Mt 21:32)

we were to be righteous in righeousness before him all our days. (lu 1:75)


And just to clarify to those here who might be thinking otherwise. It is a righteousness tha comes from YHWH., through the faithfulness of Yeshua the Messiah, to all who continue trusting. Jew or Goy. (Rom 3:22)

A righteous person 'does not' (action) sin, and it is credited to him as righteousness (state) Holiness. A righteous person IS Holy through his actions.

Distinct yet inseperable; to me. You arn't in a state of being Holy if your not acting in righteousness. If your not acting righteous you will not be found holy. If your holy you will be acting righteous. And round we go! ^_^

visionary
1st March 2005, 07:19 PM
Distinct yet inseperable! ^_^inseparable :clap: :holy:

Sephania
1st March 2005, 07:28 PM
Echad.

visionary
2nd March 2005, 11:33 AM
I think I see what your getting at. You see righteousness as the 'act' that brings about "Holiness"? I do not see righteousness bringing about holiness... for many can be doing righteous acts but are not holy. Paul was fulll of righteous acts but ultimately was he a hinderance?.... John the Revelator, I envision as being in a holy state.

Do not get me wrong about Paul... for someone must dig into the most controversial issues to try and resolve them... they will be accounted righteous for their rightly dividing of the word.

John, I see was not into the controversies, but was better known as the "love" gospel teacher.... which is about the relationship with Yeshua... a more Holy state.

chunkofcoal
2nd March 2005, 11:50 AM
Here are some inward convictions of mine;







Notice what Yeshua wants most of all is not legalistic observances, but inward heart convictions; compassion, mercy, trust, justice, freedom, love, faithfulness. THESE are the observances of Torah he desires, not legalistic physical shows of piety or duty.

:)

I noticed in your quotes "in union with" Messiah. He in us and we in Him. Makes me think about Romans 10:5-8 "For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach." And that passage comes from Deuteronomy 30:11-14
"For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."

chunkofcoal
2nd March 2005, 11:56 AM
Is the "righteous" as opposed to "holy" something like "He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward." (Matt. 10:40-42) :scratch:

P_G
2nd March 2005, 12:34 PM
I would see Righteousness as a pathway to holiness
which is to say sinlessness. A state of perfect adherance to the Law

I do not think that Holiness can be attained this side of the grave. But Righteousness can be. Hence the conviction of the Law and a desire or thirst for Righteousness.

PG

visionary
2nd March 2005, 12:41 PM
I would see Righteousness as a pathway to holiness
which is to say sinlessness. A state of perfect adherance to the Law

I do not think that Holiness can be attained this side of the grave. But Righteousness can be. Hence the conviction of the Law and a desire or thirst for Righteousness.

PGThis is the state of the living at the time of Yeshua's return...
Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Tishri1
2nd March 2005, 02:21 PM
I am loving this post you guys!

I love it how this subject spurs me into action, and this one really does.:thumbsup:

I love how I can obtain righteousness through forgiveness by the blood, BUT that sacrifice begs me to do something:pray: , to move toward Holiness...will I ever attain it?....maybe and I sure hope so; still I can't help but move in that direction.


1 Thessalonians 3:13 13 so that He may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.



SEE YA:wave: Tishri

visionary
2nd March 2005, 02:55 PM
1 Thessalonians 3:13 13 so that He may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. Just needed to highlight this part of the verse... so that it stands out more...great verse :thumbsup:

Shimshon
2nd March 2005, 04:56 PM
Righteous is an adjective, modifying a noun.

Righteousness is a noun, a state of being. The same as Holiness. Or being Holy. It's a state, a noun.

Our 'righteousness' is of YHWH by Yeshua. Not by our 'righteous' acts we live in all our lives. Because these acts are only the righteousness of YHWH living through us, not our own. And when his righteous acts are done through us we are living in union with him and his righteousness. We are Holy because He is Holy.

The only thing we had to do was be willing, empty our vessels so he could live in them, let him clean out our Temples so his righteousness could live doing righteous deeds he prepared for us.

Sephania
2nd March 2005, 06:01 PM
Is not belief counted as righteousness? But being Holy is separating yourself for the service of only the one True G-d?

Shimshon
2nd March 2005, 06:47 PM
Yes, faith is counted or acredited us as righteousness. But, being holy is a state of "righteousness" as His 'righteous' actions show your separated to serving only YHWH. His righteous actions lived through you show your seperated to ONLY his ways. His actions are seen as your Holiness. They are acredited to your account as though YOU were Holy. If you WALK/live in/by this 'Faith'.

visionary
2nd March 2005, 07:26 PM
I know that you see and understand righteousness and holiness as the same thing... but I see a distinction. Like Moses going up Mount Sinai as a righteous man and coming down with the shekinah glory as Holy.

ShirChadash
16th March 2005, 10:10 AM
*bump*