Unlevened Bread

[SumTinWong]

Having a discussion in our church about the bread that should be used during the Lord's Supper. After looking through the Baptist Polity Manual I did not see any requirement for what kind of bread was to be used during the Supper.

At this time we use unlevened bread and our pastor has gone to great lengths to try and explain why he does this but there is a couple in the church that feel he is being either too legalistic or that he is making an idol of the bread by talking about it so much.

Honestly I do not have a problem using any bread but I was wondering if any of you have a good resource as to the benefits of either levened or unlevened bread so that I can show this to the pastor and he can discuss it with the couple.

Thanks in advance.

[Gold Dragon]

Having a discussion in our church about the bread that should be used during the Lord's Supper. After looking through the Baptist Polity Manual I did not see any requirement for what kind of bread was to be used during the Supper.

At this time we use unlevened bread and our pastor has gone to great lengths to try and explain why he does this but there is a couple in the church that feel he is being either too legalistic or that he is making an idol of the bread by talking about it so much.

Honestly I do not have a problem using any bread but I was wondering if any of you have a good resource as to the benefits of either levened or unlevened bread so that I can show this to the pastor and he can discuss it with the couple.

Thanks in advance.

I guess if we are trying to closely mimic the meal in the Upper Room which most consider to be a seder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seder) passover meal, then matzah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matzah) (unleavened bread) would be the way to go. From there it is a good idea to look into the OT meaning behind unleavened bread.

But I would agree with the couple that it isn't a good idea to get too caught up in the form of communion and lose focus on the meaning of it.

[Crazy Liz]

Most Christians have a preference, but do not believe that either is required. Every reference to communion in scripture uses the word for ordinary raised bread, not the word for unleavened matzos. However, Matthew, Mark and Luke describe the actual meal as a Passover meal, in which matzos would have been eaten. John does not describe the meal itself, but states that it was the night before the Passover.

The weight of the evidence seems to be that the early church used ordinary bread at first. In fact, many church historians think at first it was celebrated as part of an ordinary meal, with all kinds of foods shared, not just token amounts of bread and wine.

Most Christians today have a preference, but do not insist on one or the other. The Western tradition is to use unleavened bread because of the connections with the Passover. The Eastern tradition is to use raised bread "because Christ has risen," and because the NT always uses the Greek word for ordinary bread. The Eastern idea that unraised bread was used by Jesus before his resurrection, but raised bread was used by the church after the resurrection is one that appeals to me.

In interdenominational communion services I have attended over the last 30 years or so, Middle Eastern pocket bread is often used. I assume it is considered a compromise because it is flat but does contain yeast.

[SumTinWong]

I guess if we are trying to closely mimic the meal in the Upper Room which most consider to be a seder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seder) passover meal, then matzah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matzah) (unleavened bread) would be the way to go. From there it is a good idea to look into the OT meaning behind unleavened bread.

But I would agree with the couple that it isn't a good idea to get too caught up in the form of communion and lose focus on the meaning of it.
Thanks Dragon, I knew I could count on you :)

[SumTinWong]

Most Christians have a preference, but do not believe that either is required. Every reference to communion in scripture uses the word for ordinary raised bread, not the word for unleavened matzos. However, Matthew, Mark and Luke describe the actual meal as a Passover meal, in which matzos would have been eaten. John does not describe the meal itself, but states that it was the night before the Passover.

The weight of the evidence seems to be that the early church used ordinary bread at first. In fact, many church historians think at first it was celebrated as part of an ordinary meal, with all kinds of foods shared, not just token amounts of bread and wine.

Most Christians today have a preference, but do not insist on one or the other. The Western tradition is to use unleavened bread because of the connections with the Passover. The Eastern tradition is to use raised bread "because Christ has risen," and because the NT always uses the Greek word for ordinary bread. The Eastern idea that unraised bread was used by Jesus before his resurrection, but raised bread was used by the church after the resurrection is one that appeals to me.

In interdenominational communion services I have attended over the last 30 years or so, Middle Eastern pocket bread is often used. I assume it is considered a compromise because it is flat but does contain yeast.
CL,

I have cut and pasted your post into a document that i am preparing for the pastor. I think your post was wonderful in that it was informational and not biased one way or another. I know where you stand, and I agree, Thanks!

[Gold Dragon]

Most Christians today have a preference, but do not insist on one or the other. The Western tradition is to use unleavened bread because of the connections with the Passover. The Eastern tradition is to use raised bread "because Christ has risen," and because the NT always uses the Greek word for ordinary bread. The Eastern idea that unraised bread was used by Jesus before his resurrection, but raised bread was used by the church after the resurrection is one that appeals to me.

Cool, I like that imagery.

[ZiSunka]

I've had communion using tortillas, which I guess are a kind of unleavened bread, as well as having it once with Wonder bread and several times with wheat bread.

I don't think it matters what kind the bread is, it is the symbolism of it being Christ's body that matters. If your pastor really harps on it, I would try to find out why it is so important to him.

[SumTinWong]

I've had communion using tortillas, which I guess are a kind of unleavened bread, as well as having it once with Wonder bread and several times with wheat bread.
I have the picture of a dip party during church :)

I don't think it matters what kind the bread is, it is the symbolism of it being Christ's body that matters. If your pastor really harps on it, I would try to find out why it is so important to him.
Yeah he does bring it up, and compare the leven as being sin, so I think that is why he does bring it up. I will giev the things i have so far to him and see what he says. If he still goes on about it, I would say something else for sure.

[Iollain]

What do you think of this article, UB. I think it is something every Christian should read.

I've token the liberty of stealing this off the MJ forum I thought it was an excellent read.

And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread . . . Leviticus 23:6-8

A Sacred Charge

As the Master reclined at his last Seder with the Twelve Disciples, he took the cup and the unleavened bread and said, "Do this in remembrance of me." The this to which Yeshua referred was the Festival of Unleavened Bread and the Seder meal. We are to remember him whenever we take the elements. How much more so at Passover when he spoke those words!

As his disciples, we are privileged to fulfill his commandment by annually celebrating the Festival of Unleavened Bread in remembrance of him. Our observance of the Feast is not optional for us. Rather it is a sacred charge the Master left in our hands on his last night with us before he suffered.

The command to keep the Appointed Time of Unleavened Bread is an eternal commandment of the Torah. Every year the 15th day of the 1st month on the Biblical Calendar is a High Sabbath marking the beginning of the seven days of Unleavened Bread. The last day of the Festival is also a High Sabbath (Leviticus 23:6-8).

Cleansing out the Leaven

During the seven days of the Festival it is forbidden to be in possession of anything containing leaven. Prior to the Festival all yeast and products containing yeast should be removed from the household. They should be consumed or given away. The sunset which begins the 15th day of the month is the absolute deadline for removing the leaven. One's house should be cleaned to insure that no crumbs of bread or other leavened items are overlooked. Kitchens are thoroughly cleaned. Usually a ritual search for leaven is made the 24 hours prior to the beginning of the festival. The search is done just after dusk with a candle, a wooden spoon, a feather and a piece of linen. If children are present, it is not unusual to plant some crumbs of bread for them to find. Any crumbs or leaven which are found are swept onto the wooden spoon with the feather. Then the wooden spoon, the candle, the feather and the leven are all wrapped tightly together in the linen. The whole "leaven package" is placed outside the house to be burned in the morning.

The Symbolism of Leaven

The search for leaven symbolizes our personal cleansing of home and body from sin. Just as we carefully clean our homes to remove any yeast or leavened bread and we do not spare even the smallest crumb, so too we should search our hearts, deeds and words for any sinful act or attitude which must be removed. Paul writes, "Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Messiah, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth." (1st Corinthians 5:6-8) As we search our homes for leaven and our lives for spiritual leaven we should be reminded that we are preparing to come to the Master's table. Paul referred to this when he said, "Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup." (1 Corinthians 11:27,28). In the same way we carefully search our homes, we must also carefully search our hearts.

Traditionally the leaven package is burned at the time of morning prayer on the 14th day of the first month. By Divine coincidence, that is the exact day and hour in which our Master was crucified. He is the one who removes our sin and spiritual leaven.

Born Again Bread

For the duration of the seven days, no product containing yeast can be eaten or brought into the home. It is a commandment to eat unleavened bread (that is matzah) on each of the seven days. There is a deep and spiritual meaning to the ritual of eating only unleavened bread for the seven days of the festival. In ancient times, dough was leavened by adding a starter dough left over from the last batch of bread, much the way sour dough bread is made today. Therefore, a culture of leaven was passed on from loaf to loaf to loaf. The commandment to get rid of all the old leaven and start with new unleavened bread symbolizes a clean break with the past. It is a chance to start over. It is a chance to start fresh. It is like being born again.

Paul tells us to

"Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast. (and to) Keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth." 1 Corinthians 5:7,8

The Body of the Master

Disciples of the Master find and even deeper meaning in the bread. Yeshua took the matzah bread at his Last Seder and said, "This is my body which is for you, do this in remembrance of me." The Unleavened Bread teaches us about the Body of the Master! If we examine a piece of matzah, we will see that it has three peculiar attributes.

1. It is pierced.

2. It is striped.

3. It is flat.

Just as the Unleavened Bread is pierced, Messiah's body was pierced. Just as the the Unleavened Bread is striped, his body was striped and wounded, and just as the unleavened bread is without yeast, making it flat, he was without sin. We find it written in the Scriptures, "They will look upon the one they have pierced," (Zecheriah 12:10) and again, "By his stripes we are healed," (Isaiah 53:5) and again, "Yet he was without sin." (Hebrews 4:15)

The Seder Meal

In Exodus 12, the Torah instructed the children of Israel to celebrate a special feast on the first night of the Festival of Unleavened Bread. On the menu was roasted lamb, bitter herbs and unleavened bread. This meal is called a Pesach Seder. The purpose of this meal was a commemoration. It was a memorial meal to remember the meal eaten in Egypt as the LORD passed over.

'Now this day will be a memorial to you, and you shall celebrate it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations . . . (Exodus 12:14)

The Passover Seder meal was given to Israel in order that they should always remember the great redemption from Egypt. It is a way of teaching each subsequent generation the story of Passover. God gave the commandment for this particular feast as a "remembrance." In Judaism to this day, the reason for the Seder meal is to teach the children the story of their redemption from Egypt. (Exodus 12:26,27)

The Passover Seder meal is usually held in one's home with festive foods and guests. Since the destruction of the Temple, lamb is no longer served at a seder, but the bitter herbs and unleavened bread still constitute the main rituals of the evening.

The Last Seder

It was a traditional Passover Seder meal that Yeshua and his disciples celebrated as their Last Supper.

Although the various elements of the Seder have undergone some alterations over the centuries, today's Seder liturgy is not at all unlike what Yeshua and his disciples were doing in that upper room. An ancient Haggadah (Seder meal liturgy) found in the Cairo Genizah dates back to the early centuries of Rabbinic Judaism. In form and content, it is very similar and on many points identical to the Haggadah still in use by Orthodox Judaism. By using the Passover Haggadah as a compass, it is possible for us to reconstruct the "last supper" of Yeshua and his disciples.

The Cup of The Master

When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him. And He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, "Take this and share it among yourselves; for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes." (Luke 22:14-18)

Try to see the large upper room, furnished for Yeshua and his disciples. They are reclining at the table, as is the custom. He takes the cup, and gives thanks. The Greek word translated as "giving thanks" is eucharisteo. From this word, the church has coined the term "Eucharist." In the original context of the Passover Seder, however, the term applies to the words of the Kiddush. The Kiddush is the blessing which began the Passover Seder Meal and the Festival of Unleavened Bread. Kiddush is Hebrew for "sanctification." The Passover, like all the feasts, was to be a "holy" day. Therefore, the Seder is begun with a declaration of the holiness of the day. This kiddush declaration is done over a cup of wine, which is then shared among the participants.

So it was on that night that Yeshua took the cup in his right hand and lifted it for everyone to see. Then he chanted the kiddush. The text of Kiddush in a modern Seder is as follows: "Blessed are You, LORD our God, King of the universe, Who brings forth the fruit of the vine. Blessed are you, LORD our God, King of the universe, Who has chosen us from among all nations, exalted us above all tongues, and sanctified us with His commandments. With love you have given us, O LORD our God, appointed times for gladness, festivals and seasons for rejoicing, this Feast of Unleavened Bread, the season of our deliverance, with love, a sacred rehearsal in remembrance of the departure from Egypt. For you have chosen us, and you have sanctified us from all the nations, and you have given us festivals with gladness as our inheritance. Blessed are You, LORD our God, who sanctifies Israel and the seasons."

As the disciples responded, "Amen," Yeshua drank from the cup and then passed it to his disciples, saying, "Take this and share it among yourselves; for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes."

The Cup of Salvation

In addition to the cup for the Kiddush, the Sages ordained three more cups to be drunk on the eve of Passover. The total four cups of the Seder are meant to correspond to the four expressions of redemption which God spoke to Israel in Exodus 6:6,7. According to the Sages, these four cups of the Passover Seder fulfill the verse: "I will lift up the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD." (Psalm 116:13 and Shemot Midrash Rabbah 6.4) Therefore, all four cups of the Seder meal are collectively called the "Cup of Salvation." The Hebrew word for Salvation is Yeshua.

It is the four Seder cups , "the cup of salvation," that Yeshua took with his disciples when he said, "Do this in remembrance of me."

The Last Seder

Other elements of the Last Supper are also anchored within the rituals of the Passover Seder. The washing of the disciple's feet has a natural compliment in the initial washing ceremony of the Seder. The dipping into the sop, which Yeshua used to point out his betrayer, is a Seder meal ritual. The breaking and sharing of unleavened bread is a Seder ritual. The use of unleavened bread as a ritual substitute for a sacrifice comes from the Seder meal. The table prayers and even the hymn sung at the close of the meal are all regular features of the Seder that find expression in the Gospel's telling of the Last Supper.

When we participate in the annual Passover Seder meal, we have the opportunity to relive the Gospel narratives of the Last Seder of Yeshua and his disciples.

Communion and the Seder

The cup and the bread, which Christianity normally associates with Communion or the Lord's Table, are originally elements taken from this larger context of the Passover Seder meal. It is sad and unfortunate that Christianity has misapprehended the words of the Master. We have assumed that when he said, "Do this in remembrance of me," that he referred only to the cup and the bread. But by putting those words back into the original context, that is the traditional Jewish Seder meal as commanded by God in Egypt, we see a bigger picture.

God had commanded the Appointed Time of Unleavened Bread to be a Memorial of the exodus from Egypt. In Exodus 12, the Torah calls the Festival of Unleavened Bread, "A remembrance." The Master's command was an allusion to the entire meal, even to the entire Festival of Unleavened Bread. Yeshua was not initiating a new "Christian rite" at the last supper. It is not communion, nor is it the host, nor is it a new sacrament. We may celebrate any or all of these rituals which we have derived from the gospels, and it is good that we do! But in the original context, Yeshua said to his disciples, "Do this [Passover Seder/Feast of Unleavened Bread] as a memorial of me." He was not initiating a new "Christian rite"; he was redefining a very old Jewish rite.

A Tragic Loss

Here is the great tragedy of Christianity. Because we believed that all the old vestiges and rituals of "law" were done away with at the cross, we have not kept the words of our Master. He said, "Do this in remembrance of me." While we have faithfully taken the cup and bread in remembrance of our Master, we have failed to enjoy and celebrate the greater context of that bread and cup. In so doing, we have missed much of what the Scriptures want to communicate to us. By ignoring the Festival, we ignored the "substance of the Messiah".


Kehilat Sar Shalom

[Gold Dragon]

One other thing to keep in mind is that an insistence in unleavened bread to mimic the seder meal in the upper room should honestly go hand-in-hand with an insistence on wine instead of grape juice.

[SumTinWong]

Hey thanks! i copied that down as well, and that was incredibly interesting :)

[SumTinWong]

One other thing to keep in mind is that an insistence in unleavened bread to mimic the seder meal in the upper room should honestly go hand-in-hand with an insistence on wine instead of grape juice.
Hmm that is a very good point. I will be sure to bring that up as well. That will not go over in this church ;)

[BT]

Having a discussion in our church about the bread that should be used during the Lord's Supper. After looking through the Baptist Polity Manual I did not see any requirement for what kind of bread was to be used during the Supper.

At this time we use unlevened bread and our pastor has gone to great lengths to try and explain why he does this but there is a couple in the church that feel he is being either too legalistic or that he is making an idol of the bread by talking about it so much.

Honestly I do not have a problem using any bread but I was wondering if any of you have a good resource as to the benefits of either levened or unlevened bread so that I can show this to the pastor and he can discuss it with the couple.

Thanks in advance.

He probably uses unleavened bread because of it's symbolism (or the symbolism of leaven which is evil). But there is no "form" of bread Biblically prescribed. There are indications in the NT that there were entire meals made into the Lord's Supper. I wouldn't be too worried about it if I were you, and as for the people.. well there will always be something to complain about amen?

[SumTinWong]

Amen :) That is what i said but this guy wants everyone to be happy, or be at least informed.

[Jeffrey A]

Having a discussion in our church about the bread that should be used during the Lord's Supper. After looking through the Baptist Polity Manual I did not see any requirement for what kind of bread was to be used during the Supper.

At this time we use unleavened bread and our pastor has gone to great lengths to try and explain why he does this but there is a couple in the church that feel he is being either too legalistic or that he is making an idol of the bread by talking about it so much.

Honestly I do not have a problem using any bread but I was wondering if any of you have a good resource as to the benefits of either leavened or unleavened bread so that I can show this to the pastor and he can discuss it with the couple.

Thanks in advance.

I don't have any "resource", but I can tell you that many of us Grace Brethren believe the last supper was not the Passover Seder proper, but was the ceremonial "casting out of the leaven" meal of the night before, the night of the 14th (as the 14th was beginning). In this meal, leavened bread is eaten, but the crumbs are swept up, collected, and then "cast out" of the house. This ceremony then has analogy to the Lord's casting out of the one unclean disciple, Judas, when he tells him to "go quickly", and Judas leaves. This after having told the disciples they were all clean, "but not all."

We also believe it was not a Passover Seder because Jesus tells his disciples to perpetuate this ceremony of the bread and the cup, as well as the footwashing and the sharing of the meal, until he returns, and yet we know that Gentiles are forbidden from partaking of the Passover Seder itself by the Law. It became a new ceremony of a new covenant, yet Passover was to be perpetually observed as part of the old covenant, which cannot pass away until it is renewed by the new covenant at the time Messiah comes to rule, but still, even that new covenant will only be with the "house of Israel and the house of Judah." As dispensationalists, we Grace Brethren believe the Church does not replace Israel, but that all the covenants God has with them will be fulfilled with them. Our new covenant is a separate covenant, and with the Church alone, made up of Jew or Gentile.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem using leavened bread in the communion service to represent Christ's body on the cross, because leaven is a sign of sin, and Jesus on the cross "became sin for us", and traditionally, the Church originally used leavened bread in the service. It was never considered a "Christian Passover" as some try to portray it today.

Funny thing about all this is, we Grace Brethren traditionally still go ahead and use unleavened bread in our ceremony, probably because we came out of a German Reformed and Lutheran background, aligning ourselves with the Mennonites in practice and belief, and that was evidently the 'recipe' we brought with us.

But when I do a three-fold communion at home, we use leavened bread for the reasons I gave above, and because its what we normally eat.

Jeffrey A

[SumTinWong]

You don't have a resource? You are a resource :) Thank you I have printed that off for him as well !

[ZiSunka]

I agree with you there Jeffrey. I was just studying this passage (John 18) about Christ's last supper and the next chapter (John 19) about his time with Pilate, and I don't think it was the seder, either, because in 19, when Pilate wanted to know the charges against Jesus, he had to go outside to talk to the Jews because they wouldn't come in to his building so they wouldn't be defiled before eating the passover. But it was late at night, perhaps early the next morning. If it had been the passover, they would have already eaten their seder meal. Then later in the day, it says that it is the day of preparation for the passover. Whatever meal Christ ate, it may not have been the seder meal.

[Iollain]

Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?


Mar 14:13 And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.


Mar 14:14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?


Mar 14:15 And he will shew you a large upper room furnished [and] prepared: there make ready for us.


Mar 14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.


Mar 14:17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.



I don't know much about the Passover, but this meal was the first day of unlevened bread when they killed the passover, and it was the evening. Isn't the evening the beginning of a day?

here is two links if anyone can figure it out:

http://www.holidays.net/passover/seder.html

http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm

[ZiSunka]

John 18:28 Then they took Jesus from Caiaphas to the governor's headquarters. It was early morning. They did not enter the headquarters themselves; otherwise they would be defiled and unable to eat the Passover.

John 19:13 When Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus outside. He sat down on the judge's bench in a place called the Stone Pavement (but in Hebrew Gabbatha ). 14 It was the preparation day for the Passover, and it was about six in the morning.

Jesus and the disciples may have had their passover meal one day early.

[Iollain]

Taking place the first 2 nights of the 8 day holiday, the Seder is the most important event in the Passover celebration. Usually gathering the whole family and friends together, the Seder is steeped in long held traditions and customs...........

says this site here http://www.holidays.net/passover/seder.html

[ZiSunka]

Hmm,, apparently, Jesus was doing it right, and the Jews were doing it wrong. Passover is the day BEFORE the first day of Unleavened Bread, not the first day of Unleavened Bread:

4 "These are the Lord's appointed times, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times. 5 The Passover to the Lord comes in the first month, at twilight on the fourteenth day of the month. 6 The Festival of Unleavened Bread to the Lord is on the fifteenth day of the same month.

It seems they may have been combining passover and unleavened bread into a single holiday. Passover is a feast day, but Unleavened Bread is a sabbath, when no work should be done, like cooking and cleaning up.

[Gold Dragon]

While the Last Supper may or may not have been the seder Passover meal, I think it is pretty safe to say that they used unleavened bread for the meal since the whole process of "unleavening" the household took place in preparation for Pesach/Passover. This included getting rid of all leaven (chametz) in food, not owning leaven and scrubbing down the place to make sure there is no leaven. This is likely what was involved in the "preparation" of the upper room.

Judaism 101: Pesach (http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm)

We may not eat chametz during Pesach; we may not even own it or derive benefit from it. We may not even feed it to our pets or cattle. All chametz, including utensils used to cook chametz, must either be disposed of or sold to a non-Jew (they can be repurchased after the holiday). Pets' diets must be changed for the holiday, or the pets must be sold to a non-Jew (like the food and utensils, the pets can be repurchased after the holiday ends).
...
The process of cleaning the home of all chametz in preparation for Pesach is an enormous task. To do it right, you must prepare for several weeks and spend several days scrubbing everything down, going over the edges of your stove and fridge with a toothpick and a Q-Tip, covering all surfaces that come in contact with foil or shelf-liner, etc., etc., etc. After the cleaning is completed, the morning before the seder, a formal search of the house for chametz is undertaken, and any remaining chametz is burned.

[Jeffrey A]

I was just studying this passage (John 18) about Christ's last supper and the next chapter (John 19) about his time with Pilate, and I don't think it was the seder, either, because in 19, when Pilate wanted to know the charges against Jesus, he had to go outside to talk to the Jews because they wouldn't come in to his building so they wouldn't be defiled before eating the passover. But it was late at night, perhaps early the next morning. If it had been the passover, they would have already eaten their seder meal. Then later in the day, it says that it is the day of preparation for the passover. Whatever meal Christ ate, it may not have been the seder meal.

The very first thing a Jew does to prepare for Passover is to clean the house of all leaven. While this cleaning is actually done over the course of the weeks leading up to Passover, there is a specific ceremony performed on the first day of Passover, the night of the 14th, just after sunset, just after the 14th has begun. This ceremony, called the "bedikat chametz" -- the cleansing of the leaven -- is performed during the evening meal, during which leavened bread is consumed, and a portion of the Haggadah is read. The crumbs of the leavened bread are then swept up, collected, and then cast out of the house, and the house declared "clean" of leaven. No leaven may be consumed after the fourth hour of the next day (still the 14th), and no leaven may even be in one's possession after the fifth hour of the next day (still the 14th).

The 14th is considered the "first day" of the feast of Passover, in that this ceremony is the first thing that must be performed as part of the feast of unleavened, and the next afternoon, still the 14th, is when the sacrifice of the Pesach lamb is offered in the Temple, and then as the sun sets, and the 15th begins, the Passover Seder is begun, and the lamb eaten, and the first official day of the seven days of eating unleavened bread begins.

But a Jew would never consider eating the Passover on the start of the 15th without first having performed the Bedikat Chametz on the start of the 14th -- the day of the preparation of the Passover -- the night before. One would have to have prepared a room before performing the bedikat chametz, so that this ceremony would be in a room already actually clean.

A Jew of Jesus' day did not just waltz into Jerusalem on the morning or afternoon of the 14th and sit down and eat the Passover that evening. The first thing done to begin Passover is done the night 'before' the Passover Seder itself, on the day of the preparation of the Passover, when the Bedikat Chametz is performed, and the leaven cast out during the evening meal.

For the one eating that meal and performing that ceremony, Passover has already begun. Passover has come. Passover is in progress. It is the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, the day of the preparation of the Passover, even though the lamb will not be eaten until the next evening during the Seder.

It is like putting your socks on before your shoes.

Jeffrey A

[ZiSunka]

While the Last Supper may or may not have been the seder Passover meal, I think it is pretty safe to say that they used unleavened bread for the meal since the whole process of "unleavening" the household took place in preparation for Pesach/Passover. This included getting rid of all leaven (chametz) in food, not owning leaven and scrubbing down the place to make sure there is no leaven. This is likely what was involved in the "preparation" of the upper room.

True, the eating of unleavened bread begins in advance of passover because they must kasher their homes, that is, get rid of all leaven, even the smallest crumbs before the passover is eaten. This involves cleaning everything, even the cracks in the floor to remove all traces of leaven. So if the house was already prepared for passover, which it would have been even the evening before, the meal would have been eaten with unleavened. Plus, unleavened bread is soft and pliable enough to pick up chunks of meat with (more like a soft tortilla than a slice of white bread), and the description of the meal clearly states that Jesus, Judas and John were all dipping meat out of the same bowl. So it is almost without doubt that the bread Christ used was unleavened. However, does that mean that the Lord's supper HAS to be unleavened, too?

[Jeffrey A]

Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

This is the 14th, just as the sun is setting, the night before the lambs are to be killed the next afternoon. They are asking where to go to prepare a room (making sure it is really clean of leaven) so they may perform the ceremony of the bedikat chametz, the cleansing of leaven.


Mar 14:13 And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.

Mar 14:14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Mar 14:15 And he will shew you a large upper room furnished [and] prepared: there make ready for us.

Mar 14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

So after the sun had set, but twilight was still giving light, and the 14th had already begun, these two disciples came into the city, found the man, and then made sure that the room was really actually clean, by going through it again in a search for leaven, so they could perform the 'ceremony' of bedikat chametz in that room.

[qoute] Mar 14:17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. [/quote]

Now night is well under way, the night of the 14th, the first day of Passover, the day of preparation of the Passover, and it is time for the evening meal, and the ceremonial cleansing of the leaven that is part of that meal, the very first thing a Jew does as part of the feast of unleavened and Passover.

Passover has begun. Bedikat chametz is the very first ceremony of the Feast. A portion of the next night's Haggadah is read during this ceremonial meal. Leavened bread is served, so that the crumbs can be swept up, collected, and cast out, and the house declared "clean", so the Passover may be eaten in that same place the next evening.

I don't know much about the Passover, but this meal was the first day of unleavened bread when they killed the passover, and it was the evening. Isn't the evening the beginning of a day?

Yes. The 14th of Nisan is the first day of the feast of Passover, it comes just as the sun is setting, and the very first meal eaten that night is the first meal of Passover, and it is the meal of bedikat chametz, the cleansing of the leaven, and it must be performed so that the house may be declared cleansed of leaven, so that the Passover may be eaten the next evening, the 15th, the first day of the seven days of unleavened, the 15th through the 21st.

If one has not performed this ceremony on the first day of the feast, on the night of the 14th just as the day of preparation for the Passover has begun, one may not eat the Passover the next night, for the place in which they intend to eat the Passover will still be ceremonially unclean. But the Passover has begun when the 14th has come, as the sun has set on the 13th.


Jeffrey A

[ZiSunka]

It is the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, the day of the preparation of the Passover, even though the lamb will not be eaten until the next evening during the Seder.


No clearly the passage I posted says the passover comes the day before the first day of the feast of unleavened bread. They are two separate holidays that happen to be right next to each other. The seder is eaten on passover, not during the days of unleavened bread. Unleavened bread starts the next day and is a sabbath.

[Gold Dragon]

However, does that mean that the Lord's supper HAS to be unleavened, too?

If you are asking for my opinion, I would say no. But using unleavened bread would be a good teaching moment to explain the connections between passover and Christ's sacrifice and the relationship between the OT and NT covenants.

[Jeffrey A]

While the Last Supper may or may not have been the seder Passover meal, I think it is pretty safe to say that they used unleavened bread for the meal since the whole process of "unleavening" the household took place in preparation for Pesach/Passover. This included getting rid of all leaven (chametz) in food, not owning leaven and scrubbing down the place to make sure there is no leaven. This is likely what was involved in the "preparation" of the upper room.

Yes, but there is a ceremony held the night before the Passover Seder in which leavened bread is consumed, so that the crumbs may be swept up, collected together, and cast out of the house, and THEN the house declared "clean of leaven." This is called the ceremony of "bedikat chametz", the 'cleansing of the leaven.'

So it is not so "pretty safe" to say Jesus and the disciples used unleavened bread for the meal the night before Passover, because eating leavened bread is 'part' of the very ceremony performed in declaring the house leaven free!

In fact, a Jew can keep right on eating leavened bread until the fourth hour (http://www.milechai.com/text2/bedikat-chametz-kits.html) of the next day!

Jeffrey A

[Gold Dragon]

Yes, but there is a ceremony held the night before the Passover Seder in which leavened bread is consumed, so that the crumbs may be swept up, collected together, and cast out of the house, and THEN the house declared "clean of leaven." This is called the ceremony of "bedikat chametz", the 'cleansing of the leaven.'

So it is not so "pretty safe" to say Jesus and the disciples used unleavened bread for the meal the night before Passover, because eating leavened bread is 'part' of the very ceremony performed in declaring the house leaven free!

In fact, a Jew can keep right on eating leavened bread until the fourth hour (http://www.milechai.com/text2/bedikat-chametz-kits.html) of the next day!

Jeffrey A

Thanks for the correction.

[Jeffrey A]

Hmm,, apparently, Jesus was doing it right, and the Jews were doing it wrong. Passover is the day BEFORE the first day of Unleavened Bread, not the first day of Unleavened Bread:

4 "These are the Lord's appointed times, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times. 5 The Passover to the Lord comes in the first month, at twilight on the fourteenth day of the month. 6 The Festival of Unleavened Bread to the Lord is on the fifteenth day of the same month.

It seems they may have been combining passover and unleavened bread into a single holiday. Passover is a feast day, but Unleavened Bread is a sabbath, when no work should be done, like cooking and cleaning up.

It is incorrect to jump to the (rather wild) conclusion that "Jesus was (the only Jew) doing it right, and (all) the (other) Jews were doing it wrong."

No, the answer is found at Exodus 12:18 -- "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening [ereb], you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening [ereb]. Seven days there shall be no leaven found in your houses..." So just as the 14th was ending -- in the evening of the 14th -- until the ending of the 21st, no leaven was to be eaten. This would be seven full days, the 15th through the 21st, but the leaven must be gone, put away, before the end, the "evening" of the 14th.

"Evening" -- ereb -- comes at the end of each day, just as the sun is setting, while "night" -- layil -- is the very first thing that occurs on each day, as the light of the setting sun fades away: "It is a night [layil] to be observed for the LORD for having brought them out from the land of Egypt; this night is for the LORD, to be observed by all the sons of Israel throughout their generations. And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 'This is the ordinance of the Passover... For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread..." (Exodus 12:42;13:6).

They were to "keep (the pesach lamb) until the fourteenth day of the (first) month, then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to kill it at twilight [ereb]... And they shall eat the flesh that same night [layil]... and they shall eat it with unleavened bread..." (Exodus 12:6,8).

It is a little clearer in Deuteronomy 16:2-4 -- "You shall sacrifice the Passover to the LORD your God from the flock and the herd ... You shall not eat leavened bread with it; seven days you shall eat with it unleavened bread... For seven days no leaven shall be seen with you in all your territory, and none of the flesh which you sacrifice on the evening of the first day shall remain overnight until morning."

So they kept a lamb or kid until the 14th, sacrificed it at evening, that is, as the day was beginning to end, and then roasted it, and ate it that night, after the sun had fully set and the light faded, and the 15th had begun, and they ate it with unleavened bread, for it was NOW the first full day of the seven days of unleavened bread, and they would continue to eat unleavened bread until the "evening" of the 21st, but they could not keep any of the meat of the Passover lamb over to the morning of the 15th, but had to eat it all, or burn it all up.

But they had to have all the leaven out of the house BEFORE the 15th began, which means they had to ceremonially cleanse the house the 14th. That they did the night before Passover, in a ceremony called the "bedikat chametz", the cleansing of the leaven. On the "night" of the 14th, just after the first day of Passover, the 14th, the day of the preparation of the Passover when the pesach lamb was sacrificed (that next afternoon in the "evening"), began.

As it has been since that first night in Egypt to this very day.

Jeffrey A

[ZiSunka]

It is incorrect to jump to the (rather wild) conclusion that "Jesus was (the only Jew) doing it right, and (all) the (other) Jews were doing it wrong."

So they kept a lamb or kid until the 14th, sacrificed it at evening, that is, as the day was beginning to end, and then roasted it, and ate it that night, after the sun had fully set and the light faded, and the 15th had begun, and they ate it with unleavened bread, for it was NOW the first full day of the seven days of unleavened bread, and they would continue to eat unleavened bread until the "evening" of the 21st, but they could not keep any of the meat of the Passover lamb over to the morning of the 15th, but had to eat it all, or burn it all up.

But they had to have all the leaven out of the house BEFORE the 15th began, which means they had to ceremonially cleanse the house the 14th. That they did the night before Passover, in a ceremony called the "bedikat chametz", the cleansing of the leaven. On the "night" of the 14th, just after the first day of Passover, the 14th, the day of the preparation of the Passover when the pesach lamb was sacrificed (that next afternoon in the "evening"), began.

As it has been since that first night in Egypt to this very day.

Jeffrey A

sigh.

Why on earth did you just preach a sermon at me? The passover and the feast of the unleavened bread are two different but consecutive holy days. Even by your reckoning, Jesus clearly ate his passover meal a whole day before the Jews who refused to go into Pilate's house so they wouldn't be defiled and unable to eat the passover meal. No matter whether you think it should be eaten on the 14th or the 15th, He clearly ate before they did.

I don't know what website you got your information from about kashering the house on the 14th so they could eat the seder on the 15th, but it is just plain wrong. I had many jewish friends growing up and have enjoyed many seders and the seder was always eaten on the 14th and they had a sabbath on the 15th, which, since they are to do NO work on the sabbath, not even cooking or cleaning up, could not be the day they cook and eat the passover seder. The cleaning of the house might take more than a week, because the entire house has to be scoured from top to bottom, not just swept up and dusted, but scrubbed so that no trace of leaven remains. It isn't something that you do the day before you kill the lamb. A lot of Christian websites regarding the passover have a lot of misinformation, and I suspect you might have gotten your info from one of those. The strictest jewish homes wash everything in the house, all the dishes, all the furniture, all the floors, all the drawers, all the carpets, all the walls, all the cupboards, the garage, the car, the basement, everything to make sure there is no leaven in the house for the holidays. Some of the liberal jewish families might just sweep up the crumbs the day before, but this is incorrect.

Now that you have harped on this one point that has nothing to do with the OP, I never said they wouldn't have eaten with unleavened bread. What day Christ ate his seder on is immaterial to the OP. The OP wanted to know if communion has to be eated with unleavened bread. He did not ask who knew more about seder or passover or whatever.

[Iollain]

Oh no, now i'm gonna have to actually research and study.

[Iollain]

One other thing to keep in mind is that an insistence in unleavened bread to mimic the seder meal in the upper room should honestly go hand-in-hand with an insistence on wine instead of grape juice.

I was looking at a Jewish site, and apparently you can substitute grape juice for wine. How long does it take for grape juice to turn into alchohol? Do they add anything to it?

[Iollain]

If anyone is interested, they are talking about this over in the MJ forum:

http://www.christianforums.com/t1268590-lords-supper-and-pesach.html

[SumTinWong]

Thanks that is pretty interesting.

[Iollain]

I found something about Kosher wine here:

http://www.abarbanel.com/history.shtml

[Jeffrey A]

Why on earth did you just preach a sermon at me?

Uh... I didn't. I simply offered the biblical recounting of the events of Passover, because you had it wrong, thinking Jesus held a Passover Seder on the night of the 14th, when it is held the night of the 15th, as it always has been since the first one.

The passover and the feast of the unleavened bread are two different but consecutive holy days.

See my previous post.

Even by your reckoning, Jesus clearly ate his passover meal a whole day before the Jews who refused to go into Pilate's house so they wouldn't be defiled and unable to eat the passover meal. No matter whether you think it should be eaten on the 14th or the 15th, He clearly ate before they did.

He was not eating the Passover. That is the whole point. He was eating the meal of Bedikat Chametz, in preparation for Passover Seder the next night. The first day of Passover had already begun -- Passover had begun, Passover had come -- because it was the first day of Passover, the day the pesach lambs are sacrificed, on the 14th. A Jewish day begins at sundown. The 14th had begun. It was the first day of the eight day feast of Passover, the day when the lambs are to be sacrificed (the next afternoon). The very first thing done on this day, the 14th, at night, is the ceremony of the Bedikat Chametz, the cleansing of the leaven ceremony.

I don't know what website you got your information from about kashering the house on the 14th so they could eat the seder on the 15th, but it is just plain wrong.

Here, from the JEWISH website MileChai.com (http://www.milechai.com/text2/bedikat-chametz-kits.html)-- It is prohibited by Torah law to own chametz (leaven) on Pesach. Therefore we search and destroy chametz before Pesach. In most homes the process of cleaning begins weeks before Pesach. The house is scoured from top to bottom to remove all traces of chametz.

The Mitzvah: Bedikat chametz is done the night before Pesach, Nissan 14 immediately after nightfall.

Here, from the JEWISH websiteHanefesh.com (http://www.hanefesh.com/edu/Holidays/Passover.htm) The good-deed of the final searching for chametz (Bedikat chametz) is to be done on the night of the 14th of Nissan, the evening prior to the Seder.

Here, from this JEWISH websitenjop.org (http://www.njop.org/html/Passoverwritings.html) On Passover, Jews are commanded to get rid of all "chametz" (see definition of chametz in overview) which may be in their possession. Weeks are spent cleaning and scrubbing. To confirm the effectiveness of these efforts, a special search for chametz, called Bedikat Chametz, is held on the night before Passover.

Shortly after nightfall, Bedikat Chametz begins.

There are dozens more... just point your search engine to "Bedikat Chametz."

I had many jewish friends growing up and have enjoyed many seders and the seder was always eaten on the 14th and they had a sabbath on the 15th

Are you yourself Jewish?! Gentiles are forbidden by the Law of Moses from eating the Passover! Exodus 12:43,47 -- "And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 'This is the ordinance of the Passover: no foreigner [i.e., Gentile] is to eat of it...(only) the congregation of Israel are to celebrate this.'"

Perhaps your "jewish friends" were actually Christian "Messianics", and not Jews of Judaism at all. "Messianics" do indeed observe Passover on the night of the 14th, i.e., just as the 14th is beginning, and not on the night of the 15th, which is when all Torah Observant Jews of Judaism do -- messianicpassover.url -- (http://www.biblestudy.org/gands/hdaybook/hdbook.html) The New Testament Passover is to be observed at the beginning of the 14th day of the first month [...] The Feast of Unleavened Bread starts on the beginning of the 15th day of the first month, with The Night to be Remembered, as a joyful gathering of the brethren in a festive meal with unleavened bread.

But all Torah Observant Jews of Judaism, as they have since that first Passover in Egypt, eat the Passover on the night of the 15th, that is, just after sundown, when the 15th has just begun, just as the Torah prescribes, as my previous post quotes.

which, since they are to do NO work on the sabbath, not even cooking or cleaning up, could not be the day they cook and eat the passover seder.

They cook the Passover meat as the 14th is ending, that is, in the "evening" of the 14th, and eat it after sundown, that is, in the "night" of the 15th, just after the 15th, the first day of Unleavened, has begun. That is how a Jew of Judaism does it, as the Jews have done it since the beginning, and always shall, despite what the "Messianics" tell you.

The cleaning of the house might take more than a week, because the entire house has to be scoured from top to bottom, not just swept up and dusted, but scrubbed so that no trace of leaven remains. It isn't something that you do the day before you kill the lamb.

I myself already described just exactly that. But the Jews of Judaism DO INDEED conduct a ceremony during a meal on the night of the 14th, just after the 14th has begun, called the Bedikat Chametz, when they ceremonially search for leaven, and ceremonially "cleanse the house" by "casting out the leaven." It is a necessary CEREMONY to validate the already actually clean house!

A lot of Christian websites regarding the passover have a lot of misinformation, and I suspect you might have gotten your info from one of those.

Your suspicion would be incorrect. I get my information from Jews of Judaism, and from Jewish websites. You are absolutely correct, however, that both Christian and Messianic websites regarding the passover "have a lot of misinformation." This we agree on.

The strictest jewish homes wash everything in the house, all the dishes, all the furniture, all the floors, all the drawers, all the carpets, all the walls, all the cupboards, the garage, the car, the basement, everything to make sure there is no leaven in the house for the holidays.

This is not in dispute. I've already acknowledged this.

Some of the liberal jewish families might just sweep up the crumbs the day before, but this is incorrect.

Agreed.

Now that you have harped on this one point that has nothing to do with the OP, I never said they wouldn't have eaten with unleavened bread. What day Christ ate his seder on is immaterial to the OP. The OP wanted to know if communion has to be eated with unleavened bread. He did not ask who knew more about seder or passover or whatever.

This "one point" is apparently still not grasped, despite my having recited the pertinent quotes of scripture, and referenced the JEWISH websites, and this "one point" AROSE OUT OF the discussion, and is pertinent to it. And for the benefit of all the others, the point is an important one to be secured.

Passover is either LAWFULLY eaten ONLY on the night of the 15th, as the 15th is beginning, or it isn't.

It is.

Jeffrey A

[Iollain]

Bedikat Chametz must be where 'spring cleaning' came from.

[Jeffrey A]

Bedikat Chametz must be where 'spring cleaning' came from.

:D