Beware of Sect/Denominational Idolatry--Please

[brotherjim]

These denomination sub-groups are ideal for keeping those with like minds together for edification, and (hopefully) keeping out those who only are divisive. However, inherent in such a medium is denominational idolatry, which is exposed like a tooth's nerve to a dentists drill when some truth attempts to expose the denominational/sect idol.

We are not one another's enemy, and we do have a mutual foe, whose name was once Lucifer. Let us not fall after the same example.

Peace be upon us all, in Jesus' Name, brotherjim

[Matthan]

Any post that mentions exposed nerves and dentist's drills immediately gets my attention, such is my fear of both. However, the thrust of your post aludes me, brotherjim.

Are you saying that Southern Baptists should not think themselves more Christ-like than Independent Baptist? Or, is your intent more that Methodists should not think themselves better Christians than Lutherans?

In either case, there is a point to be made. Personally, I am the lowest of sinners, and there is no one that is not a better Christian than I. But I try, none-the-less. And rubbing words with the posters on this particular forum has given me greater insight into my own unworthyness. And, that makes my gift of God's grace so much more to be cherished. That His mercy could reach out to a sinner such as I continually boggles my mind and makes me strive to do what I can for Him, as opportunity presents itself.

Matthan <J>< (Festina Lente)

[Cright]

I don't mean to be funny Brother Jim, but, never seeing any of your posts in this sub forum until today my first instinctual feeling is that that message is somewhat accousatory. As if you have seen posts of people in Baptist/Anabaptis and are addressing them in a blanket statement with this post or something. I always try to be disserning and take it word for word, and in this post I agree with you. We should all be followers of Christ 1st and a paticular denomination 2nd.

So I am not upset with what you have written at all, just curious as to what promped you to write the statement.

I would like to recommend however (since alot of us here might now know you) that you fellowship within some of the threads before making blanket "problem" statments so that we know you better and can understand where you are coming from. Especially since no one can look at anyone elses past posts anymore to find out about you and your profile limited and tells us next to nothing about you. Just a suggestion.

btw, I have a "Chrisitan" faith icon cross. I go to a Baptist church, as shown in my profile. I kept the Christian icon when I became baptist because I felt it expressed best who I was following.

God Bless,
Carina

[Gold Dragon]

I would agree that the idea of retreating into denomination "ghettos" is giving into Satan's desire not to have the Christian unity that Christ prayed for us before his crucifixion and that Paul urged countless times.

However, being the flawed humans that we are, these ghettos have proved useful in maintaining peace and encouraging fellowship, purely from a practical standpoint.

And when we are ready to meet Christ and Paul's challenge to foster Christian unity, then there are many interdenominational forums for us to embark on that journey.

[rural_preacher]

I don't mean to be funny Brother Jim, but, never seeing any of your posts in this sub forum until today my first instinctual feeling is that that message is somewhat accousatory. As if you have seen posts of people in Baptist/Anabaptis and are addressing them in a blanket statement with this post or something. I always try to be disserning and take it word for word, and in this post I agree with you. We should all be followers of Christ 1st and a paticular denomination 2nd.

So I am not upset with what you have written at all, just curious as to what promped you to write the statement.

I would like to recommend however (since alot of us here might now know you) that you fellowship within some of the threads before making blanket "problem" statments so that we know you better and can understand where you are coming from. Especially since no one can look at anyone elses past posts anymore to find out about you and your profile limited and tells us next to nothing about you. Just a suggestion.

Hear! Hear!

Well said.


--

[Maeyken]

I find it interesting that you post a message like you did in this forum. There are several different denominations represented in this forum, and we do discuss differences between our beliefs regularly. I'm definitely not saying we're perfect, but what prompted you to make this post?

[Fat]

These denomination sub-groups are ideal for keeping those with like minds together for edification, and (hopefully) keeping out those who only are divisive. However, inherent in such a medium is denominational idolatry, which is exposed like a tooth's nerve to a dentists drill when some truth attempts to expose the denominational/sect idol.

We are not one another's enemy, and we do have a mutual foe, whose name was once Lucifer. Let us not fall after the same example.

Peace be upon us all, in Jesus' Name, brotherjim

Your post seems to be directed at those Fundamentalist Baptist that practice "Biblical Separation" ( http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/biblicalseparation.html ). The General Association of Regular Baptist Churches ( http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/garbc/inclu.htm ) and some Anabaptist can give you chapter and verse on why this practice is within proper Biblical teaching. We have a baptist church that is a member of GARBC that refuses to participate in our yearly BBQ because we are members of the Southern Baptist Conference. I would tell you their objections to the SBC but they are so ridiculous that it would detract from the point of this post.

I believe that all churches should practice some "Biblical Separation" to keep out false doctrine and those that only want to disrupt the church, but churches and Christians as a whole should fellowship with each other and discuss deference's. I have never found a minister that believes exactly like me. If I was to follow "Biblical Separation" to the extreme I would be a Church of One.

That said, if you see or hear false teachings concerning salvation are you not obligated to challenge them?
Fat
http://biblediscussion.org

[brotherjim]

Hi, Carina (and what a lovely name you have, btw).

There were other posts here that I should get to first or at least also, but yours came across with such a distinctive flavor that it caught my attention the most.
I don't mean to be funny Brother Jim, but, never seeing any of your posts in this sub forum until today my first instinctual feeling is that that message is somewhat accousatory.
Well, I have no memory to speak of, but if I would guess I'd say I started posting here on the Ana. about 6 to 8 weeks ago (not sure, though). I've been on and away from this forum for several time periods over several years, but the last time I don't recall these sub-groups and I think they did not exist yet. (I'm a member of more than a dozen Christian forums, btw--this one the best, however {-_-}.)

But I drift between several sub-groups, and this one moves quickly, so the several threads I was involved in have fallen off the map. I just saved "Anabaptism; Milk vs. Meat" from it being extinct the next day. I made several responses on the thread "The Law" by "Iolliac" (sorry if I butchered that), and I'll bump it up for you because I think many said many wonderful things to both Ana's. and Baptists--that was my last activity here I think, other than what's now on the Main Menu. I'm on "Deeper Fellowship" and some of the General Theology groups at times.

As if you have seen posts of people in Baptist/Anabaptist and are addressing them in a blanket statement with this post or something. I always try to be discerning and take it word for word, and in this post I agree with you. We should all be followers of Christ 1st and a paticular denomination 2nd. So I am not upset with what you have written at all, just curious as to what promped you to write the statement.
I believe you.

The thread starter does not address just this sub-group, of course. It is a problem I noticed on every denominational sub-group I investigated my first day exploring over here in this part of the forum. I qualify to post on four of these denom. groups, and in fact also posted this same thread starter on the Charismatic section. I'd like to post it on all of them, but thought that would be considered spamming. And the generic sections move too fast.

I also claim to write/speak prophetically--all glory to God, if true: i.e., what, where and when the Holy Ghost directs me. But I certainly do not expect you or anyone to accept that. Each should decide for their own selves, if they must (I believe such methodology should be the norm for all Christians, and do not consider it anything extraordinary for me; neither is that a falsely humble statement). More about this Gift can be found on the website of Art (Aaron) Katz, a Messianic Jew and Anabaptist, at www.benisrael.org (http://www.benisrael.org/), for those interested. His on-line/ppk. book Reality. . . is a gem waiting to be found.

But I do not claim infallability, of course, so sift, sift and sift, amen?
. . . Especially since no one can look at anyone elses past posts anymore to find out about you and your profile limited and tells us next to nothing about you.
Yeah, I was so saddened to see they did away with that search posts of so-and-so command. I purposely keep vague info. about myself in the profile and such. Not only am I a very private, and somewhat shy person (despite the fact I'm pouring out myself to you here, but you can get me to say most anything, I believe). I'm not into all those icon things, either.

(But should I not be judged solely by the words I post? Are they not the Truth and heart of God? Then obey. Are they false? Then discard them and pray for me and Love me regardless. God is big enough to do the rest. "Love NEVER fails" (1 Cor. 13:8). Not ever.)

If we read Paul's explanations of what it truly means to walk in Love, not only according to 1 Cor. 13's definition but in the well-hidden passages of Rom. 13:8 to 15:3a, and 1 Cor. 8:1 to 11:34, we find, among other things, that he "became all things to all men, in the hope that [he] might save some." Thus:

I'm an interdenominational, itinerant Christian speaker and aspiring writer, and I must be able to stand and speak in a Catholic charismatic service; or before Baptist Sovereign Grace; Anabaptists, a Nazarenes, (i.e., cond. sec.); a pre-trib., post-trib., or no trib people; etc., etc.; without offending the core doctrines of each whenever possible. What matters, and what all need, is to be directed back to the Gospel of the Apostles, who taught "that which you have heard from the beginning," that the Gospel is one of Loving God and all people--this is what saves eternally according to the promises of God's Holy Word. For all the above denom's. have failed to carry out the church's mandate, truly sorry to say. And if anyone denies that,--. Well,--. Sorry.

My own church is Anabaptist, charismatic/pentecostal holiness, and 99% "Wesleyan." But I do not claim to have the "corner" on Truth, neither the perfect church. (Every denomination has something good to offer and by which we all can grow; every denomination has some garbage.) But Grace, I cannot deny, has given me much, and therefore requires of me much, including the much hatred I must languish in on these forums each day in order to post and respond to what I allege is Truth. And I thank God for the opportunity, and I am not in any way complaining, neither in any degree sharing in any [alleged] glory of it. I do, however, accept full responsibility.

Thanks for the fellowship, Carina. May the Lord continue to pour out His blessing upon you, in the precious Name of sweet Jesus. You seem very balanced in Him--for a Baptist {-_-}, all glory to God, amen? Amen.

brotherjim
(email on file in my profile)

[brotherjim]

Your post seems to be directed at those Fundamentalist Baptist that practice "Biblical Separation" ). The General Association of Regular Baptist Churches and some Anabaptist can give you chapter and verse on why this practice is within proper Biblical teaching.
Greetings, Fat

If you want to pursue this, we should likely copy and paste onto another, new thread, as it is getting specific. But I'll briefly comment here and then leave it up to you.

I opened the url you posted, and the first para. was thus:

"The Bible teaches that we are to test all teachings (I John 4:1,6), expose those teachings that are false (Eph. 5:11), confront and rebuke the false teachers (Titus 1:9,13), and then separate from those who persist in false teaching (Rom. 16:17; Titus 3:10), lest in the end, we are disqualified for service (2 Tim. 2:20,21), or worse yet, we are identified with the false teachings and the false teachers themselves (2 John 10,11). But the G.A.R.B.C., rather than separate, has instead chosen to identify itself with a wide range of false teachings and false teachers."

I needed go no further, because the first thing I immediately noticed was the Scripture references. I went into this on the "The Law" thread by "Illoain" (one day I'll get that spelling correct, Lord willing), and I noticed you posted on there also and therefore likely read what I stated about the books/epistles of the NT. But briefly to repeat, these were writings from Apostles to their congregations in many cases. They were not telling the whole world to publicly judge the whole world before the whole world (the whole church would've been better wording in 2 or more of those usages, I suppose).

As example, if I were Paul writing to the church at Ephesus, those who I "espoused" (KJV; 2Cor11) to the bride of Christ, yes, I would instruct them to judge amongst themselves teachings other than that which I gave them. But nowhere do I instruct them to go out and tell those who are not my "children," those of the "ten thousand instructors in Christ," those of other churches not birthed by me, what is incorrect among their doctrines.

Now we cannot put the Holy Ghost in a box, and He will no doubt direct some at some time to share something of their beliefs with someone of a different sect. But that's the way it is supposed to be, the Christian learning the Voice of God and walking moment by moment in the S(s)pirit and obedient to Him--not to mention such obedience being the Holy Word's stated requirement for eternal Life. RARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But as a general rule, we do not have God's permission to judge those outside our fellowship, to and before those outside our fellowship. If you have true Scriptural basis for something different, pray tell.

Also, when we come onto a public forum like this, we by default lay ourselves bare to whatever is posted here. (The TV series I've been seeing lately that challenges some of the false teachings of the church, is also, in part, cool--but also at times tempts God.)

The above are the 2 exceptions of which I can offer, but otherwise--.

Peace, jim (also a fundamentalist, btw and ptl)
---------------------


Edit+: But this is the type of thing of which I was warning. It is the height of arrogance for a denom. to believe they must correct some doctrine of other denoms. After all, those of the other denoms. feel exactly the same way, that their slant is the correct one and "you" are the denom. in error. Amazing how the intellectual theologians of each denom. all study basically the same texts, and each deduce they have found the truth and the others not. Amazing. Still, after 500 years of Reformation, we are just as convinced of our separtist doctrines as we are that we will be the 1 in 200 million who will win the lottery for which we just purchased a ticket. Unbelievable. The entire church is walking off the edge of a cliff, and virtually all are blind to the fact.

(But my intention was to just come back here today and say that I hope all who read this post have taken as a given that it does not include the preaching of the Gospel, that specific Good News which unveils what someone must do to inherit eternal Life. For the Word commands "us" to go into all the world and preach it to all creatures, and by implication that would include those who sit in Christian church pews but who still never have opportunity to hear the apostolic Gospel of Christ Jesus because their church has been abandoned by the Holy Ghost and His saving Truth--if He was even ever there from the start. Nothing further or personal implie by me.)

These are hard words to entreat.

[rural_preacher]

We have a baptist church that is a member of GARBC that refuses to participate in our yearly BBQ because we are members of the Southern Baptist Conference. I would tell you their objections to the SBC but they are so ridiculous that it would detract from the point of this post.


I am the pastor of a GARBC church. Unfortunately we do have some churches in our fellowship that the rest of us call "secondary separationists". Please understand that not all GARBC churches are like that!! Many of us gladly fellowship with other Bible believing churches in our areas that are not part of our fellowship...Bible churches, SBC, etc.

Sadly, some of the churches in our fellowship have developed an elitest, "GARBC only" attitude that is divisive and unbiblical. They are a minority and should not be the standard by which one judges the whole fellowship.

Rick Miesel (Biblical Discernment Ministries (http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/)) is a radical extremist and his article - which Fat referenced in his post - about the GARBC is written with an obvious biased slant from beginning to end.


http://www.garbc.org/

--

[2Timothy2]

I also claim to write/speak prophetically--all glory to God, if true:

:scratch: If true? If God is giving you prophetic revelation, wouldn't you know it?

But as a general rule, we do not have God's permission to judge those outside our fellowship, to and before those outside our fellowship. If you have true Scriptural basis for something different, pray tell

2 Tim 3:16-4:2; Titus 2:11-15; 1 Timothy 6:3-5

There are others, but I see no justification for limiting these to "our own fellowship". False doctrine is false doctrine, period. It needs to be called just what it is, whether it is in a Baptist church, Catholic church, charismatic church, or whatever. When I have been in error and someone pointed it out, it didn't matter what denon he was from, the only thing that mattered was what the Bible, i.e. God, said. I am profoundly grateful to all who have had a hand in correcting me, and who will in the future, as I know I can't be right on everything I believe. I'm just not that good. heh

[brotherjim]

If true? If God is giving you prophetic revelation, wouldn't you know it?
Greetings, 2Tim2.

I suppose I must assume you were addressing me. If so, thank you.

Yes, of course the person receiving revelation will know it.The problem, however, is that virtually everyone believes that they are the one receiving the revelations, just as most Christians have concluded that they are walking in the Spirit, just as most are certain they are Loving as God commands, just as most are so sure that they--.

But reality says, such is rare. This was true already in the first century church ("ten thousand instructors in Christ, but few [true, spiritual] fathers").

(And it takes a good decade or two in the Lord before someone has had their heart purified enough to the point they are correctly hearing God on a consistent and therefore trustworthy basis. And because of that heart requirement, most would not get "there" if they lived to be a thousand--hence why God subsequent to creation ordained man should no longer live that long.)
. . . but I see no justification for limiting these to "our own fellowship". . . .
Sadly, most will likely agree with you. (But you, like Fat, have failed to understand that Paul's writings to Timothy were just that, intimate letters between Paul and his close disciple; ditto Titus.)

But my Love for the church "hopes all things, believes all things," and some at Mars's hill, albeit however few, "clung onto Paul and believed" (para.).

"Narrow is the Way, and few there be," jim


Edit+: "Paul . . . to Titus, mine own son. . . ." "Paul . . . to Timothy, mine own son. . . ."

[Palatka44]

Is proclaiming to be "Unabashedly Baptist" idolatry in your judgements?

[2Timothy2]

Paul's letters, all of them, are meant to teach us all the Christian life. Trying to pigeonhole them is a warping of the Scriptures.

I've heard this same thing several times on CF. "We have no authority to point out error". I believe this is not only dangerous, but grossly unbiblical. To let error go, in any part of the church, is to allow the enemy a foothold, plain and simple. I refer here to the core doctrines, not to things such as whether or not to dunk or sprinkle, or what form of local church gov't we should use. If someone is teaching that Christ was not fully God or not fully man, we must speak against this. If someone is teaching that Chrsit did not really die, we must speak against this. etc etc etc...

As for you being a prophet...

Matthew 7:15-20


15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

We can only judge your fruits. But I am not in a position to do so now.

[brotherjim]

Paul's letters, all of them, are meant to teach us all the Christian life.
Greetings, 2Tim.

Thank you for reading and considering my post.

I fear you may have too narrowly inferred something I did not intend to imply. All Scriptures are Holy and "meant to teach us all" (your words), agreed. Just as the Old Testament was a Covenant between B.C. "Jews" and God, and has been replaced with a better one, it is still, all, profitable to teach us of course, as it is good for "examples," etc.

My point was thus: suppose I wrote an intimate letter to my son, while he was away starting his first year of college, in which I laid out some basic promises of how I as his father would help see him through--.

Well, never mind.

(My son got his girlfriend pregnant when both were 16 anyway, and never made it to college. But grandkids are super cool!!)

As for you being a prophet...
This really seems to be quite a problem over here on this particular channel, and I do not know why. I cannot seem to have an objective discussion with a single soul without them--.

Well, never mind.

As far as the office of a prophet, per se, I have never claimed such calling. As I think I said--and I thought meticulously and plainly (but I maybe wrong--didn't check), I believe the Scriptures teach that all who call Jesus the Christ should be speaking and writing prophetically, that it should be the norm and not exception (1 Cor. 14:1). But since the Word also declares God only gave "some, prophets," it also seems clear that of course God did not call every Christian to the office of a prophet.

I do understand and realize that someone can, haphazardly, or rather loosely, say that when someone is writing/speaking prophetically then they may be classified a prophet, but I beg this to be confusion, believing the term should be confined to those called to the office.

Even though I belive in the contemporary possibility of a prophet, and even apostle, this is so remote that it's not worth discussing on this thread. I've come across maybe 2 or 3 genuine prophets in my near quarter century with the Lord. (But again, just my personal opinion: if you do not believe in cont. prophets and apostles, fine.)

But the above is just my personal belief, and I by no means expect anyone, charismatic or non-charismatic, to believe 1 Cor. 14:1 implies all should speak and write prophetically. After all, a majority of charismatics would likely disagree with me if polled.



We can only judge your fruits. . . .
Ooops: I erased the Scriptures you quoted.

Well, suffice it to say, I assert that the Scripture whereby we will know "them" by their fruits, is not referring to Fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5), if in fact that is what you are implying; but it refers to our disciples, those we proselytize, those we mentor, those we as leaders lead in our local congregations and such.

Again, however, I know you will staunchly disagree, and you will be in the vast majority by doing so, so consider that done for you by me.

I would suggest that each and every Christian need only be about judging their own self (nothing further or personal implied).

"Sufficient unto the day is the evil [still in me] thereof."

(But, again, I know you will take exception with/to [?] my amplification as well, correct? [Rhetorical, please].)

However, allegedly, in His Grace of Love for you, 2 Tim, jim


P.S. Perhaps we will "meet" again on another thread, the Lord Jesus willing.

[brotherjim]

Is proclaiming to be "Unabashedly Baptist" idolatry in your judgements?
Dear Palatka,

Are you addressing me? I'll have to assume so, I suppose.

Thank you for reading and considering the words I posted (if in fact you did and I am correct in addressing you).

I do not know anything about you, neither do I recall ever reading any of your posts, so:
1) I do not know if you are being satirical or what;
2) What I will say is in no way of a personal judgment, as since I do not know you, how can I judge, correct? Besides, I take quite seriously the commandment, "judge no man before the time." Only God is fair enough, omniescent enough, and god enough, to judge anyone; neither does He afford me the luxury of condemning others which He does allow many to get away with out of their ignorance (not said condescendingly, but as a teaching)------------------

Whoever,

That said, as a general observation over my 3 or 4 years on 12++ Christian forums, I have come to know that our usernames often say much about the idols still in our heart--not always, but often enough to make the observation. I just thought it any intersting thing to share in an innocuous setting. (Nothing further or personal implied towards anyone.)

Do you guys/gals Love me yet?

jim

[2Timothy2]

You bet Jim, but I will always stand against the false teaching that we are not to point out error or sin in others. This stance in no way excludes rigorously examining oneself first.

[Palatka44]

Dear Palatka,

Are you addressing me? I'll have to assume so, I suppose.

Thank you for reading and considering the words I posted (if in fact you did and I am correct in addressing you).

I do not know anything about you, neither do I recall ever reading any of your posts, so:
1) I do not know if you are being satirical or what;
2) What I will say is in no way of a personal judgment, as since I do not know you, how can I judge, correct? Besides, I take quite seriously the commandment, "judge no man before the time." Only God is fair enough, omniescent enough, and god enough, to judge anyone; neither does He afford me the luxury of condemning others which He does allow many to get away with out of their ignorance (not said condescendingly, but as a teaching)------------------

Whoever,

That said, as a general observation over my 3 or 4 years on 12++ Christian forums, I have come to know that our usernames often say much about the idols still in our heart--not always, but often enough to make the observation. I just thought it any intersting thing to share in an innocuous setting. (Nothing further or personal implied towards anyone.)

Do you guys/gals Love me yet?

jim

My stance is on Christ. I stand on the fact that He was God born to the Virgin, come to save that which is lost by dying on the cross, buried and then litterly resurrected on the third day. And upon my realization that I a sinner would die and be forever cast into Hell, suffering justly for my rebellion against God, needed a savior. I have confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord and have recieved the cleansing of His blood and am sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit.
This is to the best of my knowledge the stance of most Baptist and I am quite comfortable to worship in unison with brothers and sisters of like faith. For this I am not ashamed of and will always proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ unabashedly.

[Fat]

Greetings, Fat

If you want to pursue this, we should likely copy and paste onto another, new thread, as it is getting specific. But I'll briefly comment here and then leave it up to you.

I opened the url you posted, and the first para. was thus:

"The Bible teaches that we are to test all teachings (I John 4:1,6), expose those teachings that are false (Eph. 5:11), confront and rebuke the false teachers (Titus 1:9,13), and then separate from those who persist in false teaching (Rom. 16:17; Titus 3:10), lest in the end, we are disqualified for service (2 Tim. 2:20,21), or worse yet, we are identified with the false teachings and the false teachers themselves (2 John 10,11). But the G.A.R.B.C., rather than separate, has instead chosen to identify itself with a wide range of false teachings and false teachers."

I needed go no further, because the first thing I immediately noticed was the Scripture references. I went into this on the "The Law" thread by "Illoain" (one day I'll get that spelling correct, Lord willing), and I noticed you posted on there also and therefore likely read what I stated about the books/epistles of the NT. But briefly to repeat, these were writings from Apostles to their congregations in many cases. They were not telling the whole world to publicly judge the whole world before the whole world (the whole church would've been better wording in 2 or more of those usages, I suppose).

As example, if I were Paul writing to the church at Ephesus, those who I "espoused" (KJV; 2Cor11) to the bride of Christ, yes, I would instruct them to judge amongst themselves teachings other than that which I gave them. But nowhere do I instruct them to go out and tell those who are not my "children," those of the "ten thousand instructors in Christ," those of other churches not birthed by me, what is incorrect among their doctrines.

Now we cannot put the Holy Ghost in a box, and He will no doubt direct some at some time to share something of their beliefs with someone of a different sect. But that's the way it is supposed to be, the Christian learning the Voice of God and walking moment by moment in the S(s)pirit and obedient to Him--not to mention such obedience being the Holy Word's stated requirement for eternal Life. RARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But as a general rule, we do not have God's permission to judge those outside our fellowship, to and before those outside our fellowship. If you have true Scriptural basis for something different, pray tell.

Also, when we come onto a public forum like this, we by default lay ourselves bare to whatever is posted here. (The TV series I've been seeing lately that challenges some of the false teachings of the church, is also, in part, cool--but also at times tempts God.)

The above are the 2 exceptions of which I can offer, but otherwise--.

Peace, jim (also a fundamentalist, btw and ptl)
---------------------


Edit+: But this is the type of thing of which I was warning. It is the height of arrogance for a denom. to believe they must correct some doctrine of other denoms. After all, those of the other denoms. feel exactly the same way, that their slant is the correct one and "you" are the denom. in error. Amazing how the intellectual theologians of each denom. all study basically the same texts, and each deduce they have found the truth and the others not. Amazing. Still, after 500 years of Reformation, we are just as convinced of our separtist doctrines as we are that we will be the 1 in 200 million who will win the lottery for which we just purchased a ticket. Unbelievable. The entire church is walking off the edge of a cliff, and virtually all are blind to the fact.

(But my intention was to just come back here today and say that I hope all who read this post have taken as a given that it does not include the preaching of the Gospel, that specific Good News which unveils what someone must do to inherit eternal Life. For the Word commands "us" to go into all the world and preach it to all creatures, and by implication that would include those who sit in Christian church pews but who still never have opportunity to hear the apostolic Gospel of Christ Jesus because their church has been abandoned by the Holy Ghost and His saving Truth--if He was even ever there from the start. Nothing further or personal implie by me.)

These are hard words to entreat.

You know Jim if your going to quote me please use the full quote. Your post makes sound like I'm some kind of hard line Biblical Separatist. You see Jim the irony is that your thread started as an attack on those that believe that you must speak out against anything that is not within their Church doctrine.

My son met a Buddhist and struck up a conversation about his religion. My son said it was really funny because every time my son would tell him what Christians believed the Buddhist would say "yes we believe that too."



Your post seems to be directed at those Fundamentalist Baptist that practice "Biblical Separation". The General Association of Regular Baptist Churches and some Anabaptist can give you chapter and verse on why this practice is within proper Biblical teaching. We have a baptist church that is a member of GARBC that refuses to participate in our yearly BBQ because we are members of the Southern Baptist Conference. I would tell you their objections to the SBC but they are so ridiculous that it would detract from the point of this post.

I believe that all churches should practice some "Biblical Separation" to keep out false doctrine and those that only want to disrupt the church, but churches and Christians as a whole should fellowship with each other and discuss deference's. I have never found a minister that believes exactly like me. If I was to follow "Biblical Separation" to the extreme I would be a Church of One.

That said, if you see or hear false teachings concerning salvation are you not obligated to challenge them?


Thank you Jim for your answer.
Fat

[Fat]

I am the pastor of a GARBC church. Unfortunately we do have some churches in our fellowship that the rest of us call "secondary separationists". Please understand that not all GARBC churches are like that!! Many of us gladly fellowship with other Bible believing churches in our areas that are not part of our fellowship...Bible churches, SBC, etc.

Sadly, some of the churches in our fellowship have developed an elitest, "GARBC only" attitude that is divisive and unbiblical. They are a minority and should not be the standard by which one judges the whole fellowship.

Rick Miesel (Biblical Discernment Ministries (http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/)) is a radical extremist and his article - which Fat referenced in his post - about the GARBC is written with an obvious biased slant from beginning to end.


http://www.garbc.org/

--
I know Mr. Preacher I was not trying to pick on the GARBC I was only trying to point out that even telling some members of churches with this "Church Doctrine" that they should all get along was in it's self an affront to some of our Christian brothers. Yes there are extremist and like I said, I have never met a preacher man that I can agree with 100%, so maybe that makes me some kind of extremist. But I'm not about to leave the Church or fellowship for some small insignificant differences that have no effect on Salvation. I have no problem with GARBC, even the church I referenced are good solid Christians and my brothers, and they do leave a lot more BBQ for me. :}

Fat

"Secondary separationists" new term for me.

[Cright]

Brother Jim,

Thanks for addressing my responce to the op.

Just the fact that you have responded so many times in this thread makes me feel better. Even if I don't agree with everything you believe, that's fine with me. What matters most is that we're all growing in our savior Christ.

I was afraid you were a troll of sorts, coming to post something to "make us better" and then leave.

I think that you might have an incorrect view of the majority of Baptists due to the minority of militant seperasts that speak their beliefs loud and clear 'from the rooftops' so to say. Unfortunatly, this happens in MANY groups ... the Catholic's for example (setting doctrine aside) have gotten a rep 100X worse since a few priests were taken to court for molestation, and now all priests have a rep 1000X worse! Another example would be the US Military... they were the good guys until a group of 5 or 10 started making some terrorists strip and take nude photo's together... now Military men and women are bad.

As a society we need to be careful not to judge (on a blanket level) as much as we need to becareful not to idolize. As it is easy for Baptists to adore the Baptist church, the Catholic's the Catholics and the US citizens the Military people who defend them.

On an individual level, we may need to judge someone's thinking.. and correct it WITH scripture, being careful to make sure there is not a log in our own eye before concerning ourselves with the speck in theirs.

God Bless,
Carina

[rural_preacher]

I know Mr. Preacher I was not trying to pick on the GARBC I was only trying to point out that even telling some members of churches with this "Church Doctrine" that they should all get along was in it's self an affront to some of our Christian brothers. Yes there are extremist and like I said, I have never met a preacher man that I can agree with 100%, so maybe that makes me some kind of extremist. But I'm not about to leave the Church or fellowship for some small insignificant differences that have no effect on Salvation. I have no problem with GARBC, even the church I referenced are good solid Christians and my brothers, and they do leave a lot more BBQ for me. :}

Fat

"Secondary separationists" new term for me.

Understood...

I just didn't want anyone to "stereotype" the GARBC based on your comment about that one church. It is in our human nature to stereotype those that are part of a group based on only a small piece of information.

A "secondary separationist" is someone who goes beyond the biblical teaching of separation from sin and apostacy to the point of separating themselves from all Christians with whom they do not totally agree. Secondary separation is not biblical and leads to divisions which damage our testimony for Jesus Christ. Sometimes I feel like separating myself from the secondary separationists....but then, that wouldn't be Christlike would it. :D


--

[brotherjim]

Hey, Fat.
You know Jim if your going to quote me please use the full quote. . . .
Admittedly, I did not give your post the full attention it deserved. I can offer up one or more excuses/reasons, but I will not risk further offending you. Kindly forgive my "haphazard," and if I in any way/degree inadvertantly distorted your stance. Thank you.
My son met a Buddhist and struck up a conversation about his religion. My son said it was really funny because every time my son would tell him what Christians believed the Buddhist would say "yes we believe that too."
This is going to take the thread off topic, but hey, I started it, and I won't complain about myself to the moderators. {-_-} (Amazingly, and all glory to God of course, in my 3-4 years on 12+ Christian forums, I don't recall even one time having to report anything to a moderator--prayer works far better, albeit one must be patient.)

Anywho, I was struck my your remark of your son's encounter. I, too, through the years, have come across those who are seemingly Christ-like apart from Christ. But never once did I feel led of the Spirit to learn about their religions, for all can be summed up thusly:

When we witness we will find two basic groups of people, the sinner and the self-righteously good. Recall, please, how Christ said He came for the former only. It wasn't that the religious didn't also need a Savior, but they do not know that, neither, for many, will they ever know it as it needs to be known.

But when witnnessing to the religious, I merely explain how true Christianity is not a religion. All religions, whether Islam or Budhism or Judaism or even Christianity when it's practiced as a mere philosophy of life (mainline), claim that there are one or more things which a person can do to have a relationship with God. True Christianity, on the other hand, insists that there is nothing whatsoever that a totally sinful/evil, deceptive human being can do to relate to a completely holy and always truthful God. The two are just too unlike each other. This would then lead into how, after God reveals our sinfulness that we previously spent our lives hiding from, He desires to grant us Graces, freely given spiritual Gifts, one after another, until we have received what we need to overcome this world as Christ also became flesh of man and likewise did.

I can continue, but I think the point is made.

As perhaps a final remark, a testimony:

I was standing in line at the Port Auth. bus terminal in NYC, when a homeless man walked up to me and asked me for money (a very common situation there). I, being street-smart since a teen, said I would not give him money, but since my bus was not coming for some time, I would buy him something to eat. As we walked to the snackbar I asked if he believed in God, and his reply was that he was a Muslim or some such nonsense (I don't exactly recall). I only had 10 or 15 minutes to spend with him, so while he ate I talked about David Wilkerson's church up there. I then explained to him why not everyone is a Christian, and why other religions exist. I simply said--in this case somewhat of a Sovereign Grace remark--that the only way we can know Jesus is the Son of God and that He is the only way to a relationship with God, is if the Heavenly Father specifically, miraculously reveals it to our inner person. Well, in the couple minutes which followed, as he walked me back to my gate, the most glorious countenance befell him. He was grinning from ear to ear, and as we said goodbye I could see it pained him to let me go: God had revealed Himself and His Son to him. Glory!!!! Parise the Name of Jesus!!!! All glory to Him who alone is able to reap. (We who plant and water are nothing, "for apart from Me (Jesus and My Graces), you can do nothing [of any eternal signifigance].")

We too easily forget ours is not a Gospel of words, but of dunamis and zoe-giving Power. I've heard testimony of conversions based only upon the recipient hearing 3 words, "Call upon Jesus," and them subsequently confessing His Name. It is "God who gives the increase," or not, and intellectiual religionists have little chance of receiving it. "For so it seemed right and good in His Sight."

We should never be impressed by "their" insistences.

But of course, there is no pat methodology by which we are to carry out the Great Commission. I was shocked to see posted a question by a fundamentalist on the Theology group, asking whether or not hearing God's Voice was meant a literal experience or only a metaphor. The entire crux of the Christian walk is to hear and obey the moment-by-moment Voice of God within us!!--as compared to following the dead letter of the Law. Such hearing requires a pure heart, the further we allow God to cleanse it the less we are prone to drowning out His "still, small Voice" so easily supressed.

So the best way to witness, since God knows where each person is at and exactly what they need to hear and not hear, is for for us to first reach that place in our prayer closets where we know and obey His Voice, and then when rel;eased into the world of sinners. to speak exactly what He wants us to say, or not. This was what Christ did, never speaking what He wanted but only what the Father gave Him to say.

"Imitate me, as I imitate Christ." - Paul

brotherjim


Thanks to all for allowing me to take this liberty with this thread as I did.

[brotherjim]

On an individual level, we may need to judge someone's thinking.. and correct it WITH scripture, being careful to make sure there is not a log in our own eye before concerning ourselves with the speck in theirs.

Hi Carina.

Thank you.

Personally, I have found all that is needed is to preach the Truth. As a result, darkness is "automatically" cursed and lies of the adversary exposed in those to whom God has ordained it.

Recall Jesus saying how He did not come to condemn or judge. Sure, that was "easy" for Him to say: man is already condemned, as the wrath of God has abided upon every one since the Garden of Eden--no exceptions. What needs to be shared is how such wrath can be removed. I find people already know, deep down inside, of their sin. It is far easier for such to make its way through the veils of the heart when confrontation is avoided, and the Word seeded or watered. If it has chance to grow, God will see to it via His Spirit. "Not by might, nor by power [of man], but by My Spirit."

I'm amazed when I see on TV or read about these verbal assaults that Christians make upon gays or abortionists or the like.

All are guilty of not obeying the Three NT Commandments of Love and Faith in the Name of Jesus that Jesus came to earth 2,000 years ago and delivered to humankind from the Father, Jesus further saying obedience to them by each and every one is now required in this dispensation, or the person will be resurrected to damnation. For God is bringing to pass an eternal new world where only those willing to Love will be--.

Well, sorry, I'm preaching again I think.

I quoted you above because one of my favorite ways to witness is merely-- like the Apostles did in Acts before they knew much theology--share testimony of one or more of the half dozen mountaintop experiences I had wherein God revealed some well-rooted but unknown-to-me sin of my heart, ripped it out and replaced it with something more of Him--all glory to Him and Grace alone. And I, like all of us need be doing, am currently working on the next one, for, for one thing, we so easily return to our "vomits" (KJV), do we not?

May the Heavenly Father continue to richly bless you, Carina, in the Name of Jesus, jim

[Fat]

Hey, Fat.

Admittedly, I did not give your post the full attention it deserved. I can offer up one or more excuses/reasons, but I will not risk further offending you. Kindly forgive my "haphazard," and if I in any way/degree inadvertantly distorted your stance. Thank you.

This is going to take the thread off topic, but hey, I started it, and I won't complain about myself to the moderators. {-_-} (Amazingly, and all glory to God of course, in my 3-4 years on 12+ Christian forums, I don't recall even one time having to report anything to a moderator--prayer works far better, albeit one must be patient.)

Anywho, I was struck my your remark of your son's encounter. I, too, through the years, have come across those who are seemingly Christ-like apart from Christ. But never once did I feel led of the Spirit to learn about their religions, for all can be summed up thusly:

When we witness we will find two basic groups of people, the sinner and the self-righteously good. Recall, please, how Christ said He came for the former only. It wasn't that the religious didn't also need a Savior, but they do not know that, neither, for many, will they ever know it as it needs to be known.

But when witnnessing to the religious, I merely explain how true Christianity is not a religion. All religions, whether Islam or Budhism or Judaism or even Christianity when it's practiced as a mere philosophy of life (mainline), claim that there are one or more things which a person can do to have a relationship with God. True Christianity, on the other hand, insists that there is nothing whatsoever that a totally sinful/evil, deceptive human being can do to relate to a completely holy and always truthful God. The two are just too unlike each other. This would then lead into how, after God reveals our sinfulness that we previously spent our lives hiding from, He desires to grant us Graces, freely given spiritual Gifts, one after another, until we have received what we need to overcome this world as Christ also became flesh of man and likewise did.

I can continue, but I think the point is made.

As perhaps a final remark, a testimony:

I was standing in line at the Port Auth. bus terminal in NYC, when a homeless man walked up to me and asked me for money (a very common situation there). I, being street-smart since a teen, said I would not give him money, but since my bus was not coming for some time, I would buy him something to eat. As we walked to the snackbar I asked if he believed in God, and his reply was that he was a Muslim or some such nonsense (I don't exactly recall). I only had 10 or 15 minutes to spend with him, so while he ate I talked about David Wilkerson's church up there. I then explained to him why not everyone is a Christian, and why other religions exist. I simply said--in this case somewhat of a Sovereign Grace remark--that the only way we can know Jesus is the Son of God and that He is the only way to a relationship with God, is if the Heavenly Father specifically, miraculously reveals it to our inner person. Well, in the couple minutes which followed, as he walked me back to my gate, the most glorious countenance befell him. He was grinning from ear to ear, and as we said goodbye I could see it pained him to let me go: God had revealed Himself and His Son to him. Glory!!!! Parise the Name of Jesus!!!! All glory to Him who alone is able to reap. (We who plant and water are nothing, "for apart from Me (Jesus and My Graces), you can do nothing [of any eternal signifigance].")

We too easily forget ours is not a Gospel of words, but of dunamis and zoe-giving Power. I've heard testimony of conversions based only upon the recipient hearing 3 words, "Call upon Jesus," and them subsequently confessing His Name. It is "God who gives the increase," or not, and intellectiual religionists have little chance of receiving it. "For so it seemed right and good in His Sight."

We should never be impressed by "their" insistences.

But of course, there is no pat methodology by which we are to carry out the Great Commission. I was shocked to see posted a question by a fundamentalist on the Theology group, asking whether or not hearing God's Voice was meant a literal experience or only a metaphor. The entire crux of the Christian walk is to hear and obey the moment-by-moment Voice of God within us!!--as compared to following the dead letter of the Law. Such hearing requires a pure heart, the further we allow God to cleanse it the less we are prone to drowning out His "still, small Voice" so easily supressed.

So the best way to witness, since God knows where each person is at and exactly what they need to hear and not hear, is for for us to first reach that place in our prayer closets where we know and obey His Voice, and then when rel;eased into the world of sinners. to speak exactly what He wants us to say, or not. This was what Christ did, never speaking what He wanted but only what the Father gave Him to say.

"Imitate me, as I imitate Christ." - Paul

brotherjim


Thanks to all for allowing me to take this liberty with this thread as I did.

brotherjim,
It’s true Jim man is inherently evil and when give the choice of rightness over sin he will always choose sin unless God softens his heart and intervenes. And He has been known to harden hearts if it would bring Him glory.

Exodus 4:21
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

I’m glad to see Christians taking the opportunities that God gives us to bring the good news to others that God has prepared to receive His word and respond to His call. When God puts you in those situations be joyful that he has chosen you to do His bidding. And to those that never find themselves in those situations there maybe more then meets the eye, as they say. Living the life of Christ may have more effect on those around you then you realize. A small good deed or kind word, may be all that is needed to set Gods plan in motion even though you may never know it or the results it may bring. If you want to hear some tear jerking stories talk to a member of the gideons. A Bible found in a garbage dump could bring thousands to Christ, who would have figured?

Take care Fat

[brotherjim]

If you want to hear some tear jerking stories talk to a member of the gideons. A Bible found in a garbage dump could bring thousands to Christ, who would have figured?
Indeed.

Fat, as I was meditating last evening in the Lord, I had thought about your son, and also how I myself have spent about half my working life in direct, outside sales. I guess one point I was wanting to originally make, and failed, was that I would advise your son of a well-ingrained axiom among salespeople: buyers are liars. When witnessing--and young people are especially prone to this by their more trusting nature I suppose, we must not believe the stories people tell us. They are usually a smoke screen; excuses. We must keep our mind focused on Above and on presenting the Gospel, fully assured within ourselves that even those outwardly appearing more pious/religious than even our own selves, are still, apart from Jesus' Grace, black as the ace of spades on their interior, their motives selfishly evil, them seeking the praises of men more than God, etc., etc. etc. The wrath of God abides upon them, and that is often all God wants them to know, well, that and the fact it is only removed when we submit as a totally dependant child, to the Graces only available through the Blood sacrifice of God's Son.

(Hey, anyone, did you see Day of Discovery last weekend? I thought it quite interesting that Hebraic Jews view Christians as idol worshippers, them thinking we serve three gods. They know of and refer to Jesus as "that man." Just one more witness to how we must shelve our pet doctrines, not only of such things as Calvin vs. Arminius, rapture vs. trib., charis. vs. non, but also what we think foundational, such as Trinitarianism (or Oneness). Let's get 'um saved first, and in church, and then we can shove our doctrines down their throats, amen? [Recall how in Acts 2 Peter referred to Christ as "the Man."])

Art (Aaaron) Katz, one of the few truly prophetic speakers here in the West (www.benisrael.org (http://www.benisrael.org) - check out the streaming video interview if he still has it posted), tells a wonderful tale of how intimidating it is to, say, walk into the office of a devout Jew, be faced with all the accolades and degrees ornamently affixed to his walls for all to see and admire, and then find yourself faced with the daunting task of sharing the "foolishness" (KJV) of the Cross to such a highly-asteemed-among-men, but in Truth, sinner.

jim

[brotherjim]

. . . and I was further reminded, when witnessing to the self-righteous "good," let us recall the Holy Scripture, "who have a form of godliness, but deny the Powere thereof."

The simply religious apart from Christ, have concluded within themselves that they have attained the best man can do in this life. They do not believe in some miraculous power that instantly cleanses the heart of man, neither in the Graces only available from Heaven through Christ Jesus. Such believe only in man, only in the power of humanism, so they do not believe our personal testimonies, neither the supernatural promises of God.

Then, too, if an intellectual, which many are, they have further concluded the Bible to be little more than "child psychology," someone's idea of how to keep the common, simpleminded folks from getting out of control and all. But as for the well-educated, well, it would be silly--so the human reasoning goes--for them to think that--.

Well, it is summed up in the warning: "be not wise in your own conceits"--which warning, too, they do not and mostly can not heed.

And, hence, why few wise according to this world, few wealthy . . . will inherit the Kingdom of God, it being reserved for the childish and needy and depraved--for which I thank God I was made by Grace such a one.

brotherjim