In response to Revelations posts

[plum]

In your opinion (as almost anything concerning the end times is- an opinion), is the entire of Revelations about the end times?

I'm not really going for theories of what will happen when (for now), but what do you think the early believers thought when they read it? Did they dream of fantastical monsters, etc? Or did they think in more concrete terms? I've been thinking through some of this with my Bible Study as of late... and want to know what you all think. What did THOSE people probably think of?

Are many of our ideas about Revelations simply perpetuated guesses throughout time? Do we buy into the hype of novels, books, and movies that all say different things? Or is it perhaps more simple than that? Perhaps it isn't at all simple.

So what do YOU think?

[Sephania]

My opinion is that the dragon, beast, serpent, etc , time is short and he will look to decieve as many as possible so that the warning that Yeshua gave will be twisted and not understood by many. Left behind books are a great example of this. I will not go into all the reasons why but just say caveat emptor.

Some have argued when this was written and depending on what you believe about that is totally effective on how you view it. I beleive it was written after the destruction in 70CE.

Also you need to have a good foundational basis of understanding what the tenach says to interpret it, that is its "key". When you don't have that or use that you can come up with all kinds of interpretations.

[shmuel]

Irenaeus wrote around 180. He is said to be a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John. Book V of Against Heresies has a great deal to say about the end times. Chapter XXVI addresses this point

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-63.htm#P9261_2698677

1. In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings."228 (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/footnote/fn92.htm#P9263_2699664) It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord. For that the kingdom must be divided, and thus come to ruin, the Lord [declares when He] says: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand."229 (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/footnote/fn92.htm#P9264_2700292) It must be, therefore, that the kingdom, the city, and the house be divided into ten; and for this reason He has already foreshadowed the partition and division [which shall take place]. Daniel also says particularly, that the end of the fourth kingdom consists in the toes of the image seen by Nebuchadnezzar, upon which came the stone cut out without hands; and as he does himself say: "The feet were indeed the one part iron, the other part clay, until the stone was cut out without hands, and struck the image upon the iron and clay feet, and dashed them into pieces, even to the end."230 (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/footnote/fn92.htm#P9265_2700904) Then afterwards, when interpreting this, he says: "And as thou sawest the feet and the toes, partly indeed of clay, and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided, and there shall be in it a root of iron, as thou sawest iron mixed with baked clay. And the toes were indeed the one part iron, but the other part clay."231 (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/footnote/fn92.htm#P9266_2701248) The ten toes, therefore, are these ten kings, among whom the kingdom shall be partitioned, of whom some indeed shall be strong and active, or energetic; others, again, shall be sluggish and useless, and shall not agree; as also Daniel says: "Some part of the kingdom shall be strong, and part shall be broken from it. As thou sawest the iron mixed with the baked clay, there shall be minglings among the human race, but no cohesion one with the other, just as iron cannot be welded on to pottery ware."232 (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/footnote/fn92.htm#P9267_2701775) And since an end shall take place, he says: "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven raise up a kingdom which shall never decay, and His kingdom shall not be left to another people. It shall break in pieces and shatter all kingdoms, and shall itself be exalted for ever. As thou sawest that the stone was cut without hands from the mountain, and brake in pieces the baked clay, the iron, the brass, the silver, and the gold, God has pointed out to the king what shall come to pass after these things; and the dream is true, and the interpretation trustworthy."233 (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/footnote/fn92.htm#P9268_2702375)

[visionary]

In your opinion (as almost anything concerning the end times is- an opinion), is the entire of Revelations about the end times?
End times started when Jesus left this earth....as to whether Revelations is about end times....as in the these last hours of earth's history.... yes and no... for I believe that every generation is right in pointing to their time as the end time and seeing parts of Revelation being fulfilled in their time... and I also see that when the time comes we will have a "prophecy again" as the children of God will have visions and dreams, and the two witnesses will come forth to witness Revelation again in a fast pace action....
I'm not really going for theories of what will happen when (for now), but what do you think the early believers thought when they read it? Did they dream of fantastical monsters, etc? Or did they think in more concrete terms? I've been thinking through some of this with my Bible Study as of late... and want to know what you all think. What did THOSE people probably think of?Just as we give political entites today... beast characteristic,... so did they... It would not surprise me that what they pointed to in their time, is a micro incubation of the true characteristics that we will see the beast carry forth in the last hours.... so if we thought it was bad then....I believe it will only be by the hand of God that any survive this time...
Are many of our ideas about Revelations simply perpetuated guesses throughout time? Do we buy into the hype of novels, books, and movies that all say different things? Or is it perhaps more simple than that? Perhaps it isn't at all simple. I think God has inspired people of every generation to see the beasts move about in their generation... and we will also benefit from their insights... upgrade them into today's names and with the same characteristics/attitudes they will reveal themselves for what they really are..So what do YOU think? I think that we will soon have everything in place and the only way the God could have conveyed the complexity is be the beasts and the "is, was and is yet to come"...description..