Lord's Supper and Pesach? [Archive]

Sephania

21st February 2005, 03:28 PM

We have recently bought the 3 VHS tape set of the Movie Gospel of John that came out in the theatres last year. We were watching it on Shabbat and they were doing what happens in chapter 13 and some things struck me. Read what I have highlighted without the other words inbetween.

1 It was just before the festival of Pesach, and Yeshua knew that the time had come for him to pass from this world to the Father. Having loved his own people in the world, he loved them to the end. 2 They were at supper, and the Adversary had already put the desire to betray him into the heart of Y'hudah Ben-Shim`on from K'riot.

Now to continue on about Y'hudah Ben-shimon, reading all, not just highlights :

18 "I'm not talking to all of you -- I know which ones I have chosen. But the words of the Tanakh must be fulfilled that say, `The one eating my bread has turned against me.' 19 I'm telling you now, before it happens; so that when it does happen, you may believe that I AM [who I say I am].

"Yes, indeed! I tell you that one of you will betray me." 22 The talmidim stared at one another, totally mystified -- whom could he mean?
23 One of his talmidim, the one Yeshua particu larly loved, was reclining close beside him. 24 So Shim`on Kefa motioned to him and said, "Ask which one he's talking about." 25 Leaning against Yeshua's chest, he asked Yeshua, "Lord, who is it?" 26 Yeshua answered, "It's the one to whom I give this piece of matzah after I dip it in the dish." So he dipped the piece of matzah and gave it to Y'hudah Ben-Shim`on from K'riot. 27 As soon as Y'hudah took the piece of matzah, the Adversary went into him. "What you are doing, do quickly!" Yeshua said to him. 28 But no one at the table understood why he had said this to him. 29 Some thought that since Y'hudah was in charge of the common purse, Yeshua was telling him, "Buy what we need for the festival," or telling him to give something to the poor. 30 As soon as he had taken the piece of matzah, Y'hudah went out, and it was night.

If what they were celebrating was a Pasache seder then why would they think this?

Now lets skip- ahead to chapter 18

28 They led Yeshua from Kayafa ( High Priests residence) to the governor's headquarters. By now it was early morning. They did not enter the headquarters building because they didn't want to become ritually defiled and thus unable to eat the Pesach meal. 29 So Pilate went outside to them and said, "What charge are you bringing against this man?" 30 They answered, "If he hadn't done something wrong, we wouldn't have brought him to you." 31 Pilate said to them, "You take him and judge him according to your own law." The Judeans replied, "We don't have the legal power to put anyone to death."

And to 19

14 it was about noon on Preparation Day for Pesach.

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31 It was Preparation Day, and the Judeans did not want the bodies to remain on the stake on Shabbat, since it was an especially important Shabbat. So they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies removed.

The Shabbat of Pasache.

MyLittleWonders

21st February 2005, 03:36 PM

So ... I'm confused. I thought that Yeshua ate the Erev Pesach meal with the disciples (right, that's the Pesach meal on the evening before the morning of Pesach ... so confusing sometimes to me when I have to think of days starting the evening before). Then, he went to the garden to pray. Then, he was arrested. Then, just before dawn on Pesach, he was taken before the Sanhedrin, Pilate, Herod ... He was crucified on Pesach. Then, because the next day was the Shabbat for the beginning of Unleavened Bread, so he had to come down from the stake ... and then he rose on First Fruits ... But reading your highlighted parts ... it sounds like he was put on the stake the day before Pesach (Nisan 13?) So the meal he ate with the disciples was not the Pesach meal? Help!

Sephania

21st February 2005, 04:09 PM

He was hung as the lambs for Pasache were being slaughtered in the temple. Imagine what they thought when they heard the veil rip???;)

plum

21st February 2005, 04:47 PM

I thought that Yeshua dying at the moment of the 9th hour (3:00pm right?) was VERY significant because at that moment the shofar blew in Jerusalem, signifying that the passover lamb had been sacrificed for the sins of the people. And at that moment, the True Passover Lamb said "it is finished.".... at least that's how I've seen it.

so.............. no?

Sephania

21st February 2005, 04:56 PM

Yes Julie you are correct.

By Grace

22nd February 2005, 12:50 PM

26 Yeshua answered, "It's the one to whom I give this piece of matzah after I dip it in the dish." So he dipped the piece of matzah and gave it to Y'hudah Ben-Shim`on from K'riot. 27 As soon as Y'hudah took the piece of matzah, the Adversary went into him. "What you are doing, do quickly!" Yeshua said to him. 28 But no one at the table understood why he had said this to him. 29 Some thought that since Y'hudah was in charge of the common purse, Yeshua was telling him, "Buy what we need for the festival," or telling him to give something to the poor. 30 As soon as he had taken the piece of matzah, Y'hudah went out, and it was night.

Why would they have been eating matzah if it wasn't Pesach (isn't Pesach the first day of Unleavened Bread? This is my first year to celebrate it, so I'm not sure...)

If what they were celebrating was a Pasache seder then why would they think this?

Now lets skip- ahead to chapter 18

28 They led Yeshua from Kayafa ( High Priests residence) to the governor's headquarters. By now it was early morning. They did not enter the headquarters building because they didn't want to become ritually defiled and thus unable to eat the Pesach meal. 29 So Pilate went outside to them and said, "What charge are you bringing against this man?" 30 They answered, "If he hadn't done something wrong, we wouldn't have brought him to you." 31 Pilate said to them, "You take him and judge him according to your own law." The Judeans replied, "We don't have the legal power to put anyone to death."

And to 19

14 it was about noon on Preparation Day for Pesach.

.
.
.

31 It was Preparation Day, and the Judeans did not want the bodies to remain on the stake on Shabbat, since it was an especially important Shabbat. So they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies removed.

The Shabbat of Pasache.

At some point along the way, I read that perhaps the Pharisees had their dates wrong, that the real Pesach was the day that Yeshua was crucified, and that they were celebrating a day late. This would tie back to how they had changed the calendar, though I know a lot of that didn't happen until well after the 1st centuray CE.

I'm interested in hearing more, if you have more to add. Since I haven't celebrated Pesach yet, it's all still pretty blurry to me. I'm hoping I'll understand more about the timeline of it all after this spring's celebrations.

Wags

22nd February 2005, 02:21 PM

Why would they have been eating matzah if it wasn't Pesach (isn't Pesach the first day of Unleavened Bread? This is my first year to celebrate it, so I'm not sure...)

Passover is one day, then comes Unleveaned Bread whiuch is 7 days....thus it because an 8 day festival, that has First Fruits in the middle of it as well. We tend to refer to the whole 8 days as Passover, which can be confusing.

Sephania

22nd February 2005, 02:37 PM

Yes, thanks wags.:thumbsup: First day nisan 14 Passover, Nissan 15 - 21 unleavened bread and Nissan 16th Feast of firstfruits. ( the third day) :)

Now as far as Calendar change, I think we can look to Shimshon to direct us on that, it seems he has studied this much, althought I have tried for years, it hurts my head. :doh:

;)

Shimshon

22nd February 2005, 03:55 PM

We tend to refer to the whole 8 days as Passover, which can be confusing.Exactly

Mt 26
On the first day for matzah, the talmidim came to Yeshua and asked, "Where do you want us to prepare your Seder?"

Mr 14
It was now two days before Pesach (that is, the festival of Matzah),

Lu 22
But the festival of Matzah, known as Pesach, was approaching;

Passover is a "festival"
14 "'This will be a day for you to remember and celebrate as a festival to ADONAI; from generation to generation you are to celebrate it by a perpetual regulation.

So is the day of Matzah
6 On the fifteenth day of the same month is the festival of matzah;

YET, Pesach seder is the 14th. Chag (the festival of) Matzah is the 15th. THIS day was declared as a Shabbat. Not Pesach. The 15th and the 21st. The 1st day and the 7th day. The total days in this combined observance is 8. Pesach/Chag Matzah.

Another thing that throws people, and especially Christians is they don't understand about the Shabbat of Chag Matzah. And they try to count 3 days from fri to sun. Which never works out cause they do understand that the Shabbat started at sundown. So they have him dying on preperation day "friday" but it's actally Pesach that would be the preparation day. No? Was THAT not the day the lamb is tried and beaten (prepared)?

Tuesday night (Yom Revi'i 14th) they observed the Pesach Seder. (Preparation day)

That night they go to the garden and Yeshua is taken. By morning he is being tried and beaten. It is STILL preparation day.

By noon they haul him off to the stake. About three the sky goes black and YHWH weeps over his Son. STILL preparation day.

Yeshua is slaughtered as our Pesach lamb, his blood is shed and his body is eaten. THEN Chag Matzah ensues. They rushed to get the body in the tomb before sundown. The Shabbat of Chag Matzah. He stays in the tomb from Wed night to Sat night. (Yom Kamishi 15th/Yom Shishi 16th/Yom Shabbat 17th) One the first day of the week (Yom Rishon), He was risen. Gone. It was SATURDAY NIGHT!. After Havdalah. Imagine that. He was gone after the ceremony of 'seperation'.

Notice the 'two' Shabbats. One on Thurs and one on Sat. Notice Pesach is not a Shabbat. Notice Chag Matzah is. Notice just how off this places Church doctrine.

As far as the calendar issue I have not come to terms with this yet. I'm in the process of asking YHWH for wisdom. I am more taken to follow the Karaite calendar than the Hillel.

b,shalom
shimshon

Sephania

22nd February 2005, 04:52 PM

Yes, it is the gathering of all three together that makes for confusion. I have ammended my post, Todah Shimshon. :)

Sephania

22nd February 2005, 04:53 PM

OK, wait a minute, then if this were the Seder of Pasache they were celebrating, did they use matzah?

Shimshon

22nd February 2005, 05:38 PM

OK, wait a minute, then if this were the Seder of Pasache they were celebrating, did they use matzah?8 That night, they are to eat the meat, roasted in the fire; they are to eat it with matzah and maror.

They were about to leave, in fact by morning they would be escorted out by Pharoh himself. Running after them to destroy them all be it. But by morning the exodus had begun. YHWH told them they would be eating in a hurry, and the bread would not have time to rise. If they waited till it rose they would be "left behind" hehehe. And would not be part of Yisrael. 10 Let nothing of it remain till morning; if any of it does remain, burn it up completely. 11 "'Here is how you are to eat it: with your belt fastened, your shoes on your feet and your staff in your hand; and you are to eat it hurriedly. It is ADONAI's Pesach [Passover].

17 You are to observe the festival of matzah, for on this very day I brought your divisions out of the land of Egypt.

Sephania

22nd February 2005, 05:42 PM

So then there are 8 days of Matzah? :scratch:

Shimshon

22nd February 2005, 05:52 PM

So then there are 8 days of Matzah? :scratch:When you include Pesach there is. And you can see how interwoven the two are. You don't have Pesach without observing Chag Matzah afterward because they are connected. Conversly you can't understand Chag Matzah without Pesach. Why are you observing Matzah? Because it was on this day that you had to leave Mitzrayim in a hurry; after YHWH caused the Angel of death to 'pass over' you because you observed the seder of Pesach. See what I mean?

By Grace

22nd February 2005, 06:20 PM

Thanks, Wags and shimshon. That makes a lot more sense. So they ate the Pesach seder on the erev of Pesach. And all of the day on Pesach, while Yeshua was being tried, crucified, and buried, was a preparation day for the Shabbat of the first day of Matzah. Then he arose at the end of the weekly Shabbat, which is when Firstfruits began. Is Firstfruits always on a sunday, or always the 3rd day of Matzah?

Why did the bread represent his body if he's the Pesach lamb?

Why could they choose either a sheep or a goat before leaving Egypt? Could they still choose a sheep or a goat in Yeshua's day?

Shimshon

22nd February 2005, 07:21 PM

Why did the bread represent his body if he's the Pesach lamb?

Yeshua was the "unleaven" Bread from Heaven.

Why could they choose either a sheep or a goat before leaving Egypt? Could they still choose a sheep or a goat in Yeshua's day?

Because YHWH defined it as such. Either were acceptable to him. (Ex 12:3)

I'm not aware of any rabbinical changes to this mitzvah. And yes I would imagine the One who gave the instructions upheld them when he came personally to witness them to us. :)

Sephania

22nd February 2005, 08:12 PM

I'd say it was a grim feast that year.

So if my confuzzled brain is computing this. Erev Pasache the lamb was eaten with bitter herbs and matzah, the next morning the matzah was eaten because there was not time to rise.

17 You are to observe the festival of matzah, for on this very day I brought your divisions out of the land of Egypt.

I guess this is what is confusing me most. This very day, was the same day as the eating of the Lamb, it was like this:

They killed the lamb, painted the lintels and at midnight the angel passed over. Egypt awakes in the night to the smell of death and wailing is heard across the whole land except Goshen. Now they get all they need from the Egyptians and move out but it is still on the same 24 hour period , it is still nisan 14 , nu?

Shimshon

22nd February 2005, 08:23 PM

They killed the lamb, painted the lintels and at midnight the angel passed over. Egypt awakes in the night to the smell of death and wailing is heard across the whole land except Goshen. Now they get all they need from the Egyptians and move out but it is still on the same 24 hour period , it is still nisan 14 , nu?

Ken, They probably didn't sleep much that night either. By sunup they were gathering to leave. And as the sun set that day with the dust of chariots raging toward them the only thing they would have to eat is the unleaven bread that hadn't had time to rise yet. (bet they would have loved fast acting yeast back then huh?) SUPERSIN!! ;)

Yes achoti, same (hebrew) day. Pesach

chunkofcoal

23rd February 2005, 10:44 AM

28 They led Yeshua from Kayafa ( High Priests residence) to the governor's headquarters. By now it was early morning. They did not enter the headquarters building because they didn't want to become ritually defiled and thus unable to eat the Pesach meal. 29 So Pilate went outside to them and said, "What charge are you bringing against this man?" 30 They answered, "If he hadn't done something wrong, we wouldn't have brought him to you." 31 Pilate said to them, "You take him and judge him according to your own law." The Judeans replied, "We don't have the legal power to put anyone to death."

I've been thinking about this and wondering if some of the people (High Priest, Judeans) were going by Roman time/days instead of the Hebrew, in which the day starts in the evening? Did the Roman day start at midnight, maybe?

As for the bread and wine, was there (is there) a change in the law, or ordinances because Yeshua became a priest after the order of Melchizedek? Melchizedek brought forth bread and wine when he met with Abram. :scratch:

By Grace

23rd February 2005, 12:47 PM

Doesn't wine have yeast in it?

By Grace

23rd February 2005, 01:00 PM

28 They led Yeshua from Kayafa ( High Priests residence) to the governor's headquarters. By now it was early morning. They did not enter the headquarters building because they didn't want to become ritually defiled and thus unable to eat the Pesach meal. 29 So Pilate went outside to them and said, "What charge are you bringing against this man?" 30 They answered, "If he hadn't done something wrong, we wouldn't have brought him to you." 31 Pilate said to them, "You take him and judge him according to your own law." The Judeans replied, "We don't have the legal power to put anyone to death."

It says the Judeans were concerned about staying ritually clean for the Pesach meal. But hadn't Yeshua already eaten the Pesach meal? And how can the Pesach lamb be slain during the day on Pesach, if the Pesach meal is the night before?

Sephania

23rd February 2005, 01:08 PM

Doesn't wine have yeast in it?

Yes, that is why there is special wine that is labled "Kosher for Passover". :)

By Grace

23rd February 2005, 01:19 PM

Yes, that is why there is special wine that is labled "Kosher for Passover". :)

Do they make "Kosher for Passover" grape juice? DH won't allow alcoholic beverages in the house...

Talmidah

23rd February 2005, 03:26 PM

Do they make "Kosher for Passover" grape juice? DH won't allow alcoholic beverages in the house...

Kosher grape juice IS kosher for passover. The yeast concern comes into play with the fermentation process needed to make wine.

yod

23rd February 2005, 05:32 PM

It says the Judeans were concerned about staying ritually clean for the Pesach meal. But hadn't Yeshua already eaten the Pesach meal? And how can the Pesach lamb be slain during the day on Pesach, if the Pesach meal is the night before?

He ate the meal on erev Pesach so the next day was still Pesach.

I visited Qumran a couple of times with different (non-moshiach aware) guides. They both said that the Essenes were respected by the people because they had the actual High Priest (son of Eliazar) among them while the Temple system had been corrupted by the Maccabeans.

The Essenes had rituals immersions every day for repentance in the morning and before the evening meal. It is believed that Yochanan the Immerser came from this community which explains why he was respected as a prophet by the people of Israel.

The Essenes had a different calendar than the corrupt priesthood in Jerusalem which would also explain discrepancies of holydays in the gospel account.

By Grace

23rd February 2005, 07:32 PM

He ate the meal on erev Pesach so the next day was still Pesach.

I understand that the next day was still Pesach. But I don't see how the Pesach meal can be on Erev Pesach, while the Pesach lamb is slaughtered several hours later, if the lamb is supposed to be eaten at the Pesach meal. Wouldn't the lamb have to be slaughtered before the meal?

I visited Qumran a couple of times with different (non-moshiach aware) guides. They both said that the Essenes were respected by the people because they had the actual High Priest (son of Eliazar) among them while the Temple system had been corrupted by the Maccabeans.

The Essenes had rituals immersions every day for repentance in the morning and before the evening meal. It is believed that Yochanan the Immerser came from this community which explains why he was respected as a prophet by the people of Israel.

The Essenes had a different calendar than the corrupt priesthood in Jerusalem which would also explain discrepancies of holydays in the gospel account.

I've heard this, too, and it bothers me somehow. I just don't see how Yeshua would have celebrated one group's date, then fulfilled another group's date. Only one date was correct, according to G-d's calendar. We may not know which group it was, but he wouldn't have observed the wrong one, then fulfilled the right one, or vice versa.

The only explanation I've heard that makes any sense to me whatsoever is that Yeshua's last supper was a practice run of the Pesach meal; that the rabbis would frequently do a practice meal the night before the real meal, so that all of their talmidim would be prepared for doing things correctly. But even then, the Last Supper wouldn't really be the Pesach meal.

chunkofcoal

24th February 2005, 02:00 AM

It says the Judeans were concerned about staying ritually clean for the Pesach meal. But hadn't Yeshua already eaten the Pesach meal? And how can the Pesach lamb be slain during the day on Pesach, if the Pesach meal is the night before?

Yes, Yeshua had already eaten the Pesach meal - the day for him started at evening. But were the Judeans waiting until midnight - them being on Roman time? Or did the Roman day start at sunrise? :scratch: I'm just wondering if Yeshua was on God's time and the Judeans were running on Roman time? :help:

visionary

24th February 2005, 11:06 AM

If we follow John's chronology, Yeshua and his disciples were settling into the upper room for his Last Supper as the Jerusalem sunset marked the beginning of the 14th day of the first month. In Exodus 12, the Israelites are commanded to kill the Passover Lamb on the 14th day of the 1st month. Yeshua was breaking bread and drinking the wine and introducing the disciples to the Lord’s supper on the evening of the fourteenth day of the month which is a fulfillment of that appointed time. At the beginning of the meal, three pieces of matzoth, an unleavened bread was placed in a bag with three compartments. Then, the piece of matzoth in the middle compartment, where you can see God the Son portrayed, is taken out and broken into two pieces, just like Yeshua is "broken" for us, and hidden. At the Last Supper, while Yeshua is preforming this pageantry He tells them that it is His body broken for them. Later before sundown and the start of another day Yeshua was buried. It was on the latter part of the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread that all this takes place.

IT would be the last time that the "lamb eaten in haste" would point to leaving Egypt at the time of Moses... because now Yeshua is adding more depth by pointing to himself.

Exodus 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: 6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. 7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. 8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. 9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. 10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD's Passover.

Another interesting thing about the customs of the Jews on the Feast of Unleaven Bread/Passover is the giving of alms to the poor. In John 13:27-30, we read:

"As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. 'What you are about to do, do quickly,' Yeshua told him, but no one at the meal understood why Yeshua said this to him. Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Yeshua was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor. As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night."

This would make no sense if it were not the Seder meal. One normally would not go out into the streets to give money to the poor on an ordinary night. However, on Passover night the doors of the Temple were opened at midnight (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 18:29f) and a crowd of poor people gathered to receive alms. Thus it was a custom to give alms to the poor at night on Passover, but night time alms were in no way customary at other times, meaning Yeshua's direction to Judas would not have been so understood by the apostles if it were given at any time other than Passover evening. The fact that the apostles had this in mind is reinforced by the fact that the other explanation they thought of -- that Judas was being sent out to buy something for the Feast -- is also focused on special customs connected with the Passover (/Unleavened Bread) feast.

By Grace

24th February 2005, 01:29 PM

Yes, Yeshua had already eaten the Pesach meal - the day for him started at evening. But were the Judeans waiting until midnight - them being on Roman time? Or did the Roman day start at sunrise? :scratch: I'm just wondering if Yeshua was on God's time and the Judeans were running on Roman time?

I don't think it matters what the Judeans were doing. Yeshua would fulfill the G-d-appointed time, not the Judean-determined time (if it was different). If Yeshua was eating the Pesach meal after sundown at the beginning of Nisan 14, the lamb meat that he was eating had to have been from a lamb already slaughtered. If the Pesach lamb was already slaughtered, so that he could eat it at his last meal, then how could he be fulfilling the role of the Pesach lamb? If instead, the lamb is slaughtered during the following day (still Nisan 14), then either they weren't eating lamb at their Pesach meal (which is prescribed in Torah) or the meal that Yeshua ate was not the Pesach meal.

Or maybe we have the dates and chronology of customs all wrong...

If we follow John's chronology, Yeshua and his disciples were settling into the upper room for his Last Supper as the Jerusalem sunset marked the beginning of the 14th day of the first month. In Exodus 12, the Israelites are commanded to kill the Passover Lamb on the 14th day of the 1st month. Yeshua was breaking bread and drinking the wine and introducing the disciples to the Lord’s supper on the evening of the fourteenth day of the month which is a fulfillment of that appointed time. At the beginning of the meal, three pieces of matzoth, an unleavened bread was placed in a bag with three compartments. Then, the piece of matzoth in the middle compartment, where you can see God the Son portrayed, is taken out and broken into two pieces, just like Yeshua is "broken" for us, and hidden. At the Last Supper, while Yeshua is preforming this pageantry He tells them that it is His body broken for them. Later before sundown and the start of another day Yeshua was buried. It was on the latter part of the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread that all this takes place.

If this is the Pesach meal, were they eating lamb? If so, where did the lamb come from?

Exodus 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: 6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. 7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. 8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. 9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. 10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD's Passover.

So they were actually supposed to kill the lamb at the beginning of Nisan 14, not during the day after sunrise! Yes, the Pesach meal is on Erev Pesach, during the night of Nisan 14. But the lamb was slain before the night of Nisan 14, not after. Does anyone see why I'm confused? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Another interesting thing about the customs of the Jews on the Feast of Unleaven Bread/Passover is the giving of alms to the poor. In John 13:27-30, we read:

Was this a custom at that time? Or is it more recent?

"As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. 'What you are about to do, do quickly,' Yeshua told him, but no one at the meal understood why Yeshua said this to him. Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Yeshua was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor. As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night."

"...what was needed for the Feast..." Which Feast? Pesach or Matzah?

Ugh. I think I'm confusing myself... :help:

visionary

24th February 2005, 03:25 PM

Now Luke may be a gentile and not know the details....

Luke 22:12Then he will show you a large, furnished room upstairs. Make the preparations there." 13 So they went and found it just as He had told them, and they prepared the Passover.

The First Lord's Supper

14 When the hour came, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him. 15 Then He said to them, "I have fervently desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God." 17 Then He took a cup, and after giving thanks, He said, "Take this and share it among yourselves. [/QUOTE]

But he clearly understood it to be that this meal was the Seder...and so did Matthew..

Matthew 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? 18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

What feast day were the religious leaders concerned about?

Matt 26:3 Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, 4 And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him. 5 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar among the people.

Evening of the start of the 14th day of Nissan

- Yeshua has Passover Seder with the disciples with passover lamb prepared for home seder meals

- Around midnight Yeshua is arrested and the until daybreak the tribunal is held.

Morning of 14th
Matthew 27: 1When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

- Pilate has the opportunity to release Yeshua

Matthew 27:15 Now at that feast the governor was wont to release unto the people a prisoner, whom they would.

- From there Yeshua was taken to be crucified and it was about the sixth hour

Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

- By the ninth hour he died... all still on the 14th of Nissan.

Deuteronomy 16:6
But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.

The going down of the sun... is still 14th of Nissan and not the 15th yet...for they were able to bury Yeshua before sundown.

He had to be down before the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread began because it was an annual Sabbath that began at sunset of the 14th of Abib. At sunset the next day begins, which would be the 15th. There had to be time to take Him down off the stake and prepare His body and lay Him in the tomb before the annual Sabbath began.

The Jews request from Pilate that the bodies be removed before the annual Sabbath of the Feast of Unleavened Bread begins John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

This Scripture passage refers specifically to the Lamb. Frequently, there were two sacrifices during the Feast of Passover. One lamb is the Passover lamb and the other lamb is called the haggigah or peace offering. These sacrifices are referred to in Deuteronomy 16:2 where G-d required that the sacrifice be from both the flock and the herd.

Deut 16:2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the LORD thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the LORD shall choose to place his name there.This was interpreted to mean that two sacrifices were needed. The Haggigah (the additional lamb) was offered in addition to the Pesach (the Passover lamb). The Pesach was required, but the Haggigah was not because it was a freewill offering.

Shimshon

24th February 2005, 03:55 PM

This Scripture passage refers specifically to the Lamb. Frequently, there were two sacrifices during the Feast of Passover. One lamb is the Passover lamb and the other lamb is called the haggigah or peace offering. These sacrifices are referred to in Deuteronomy 16:2 where G-d required that the sacrifice be from both the flock and the herd.

This was interpreted to mean that two sacrifices were needed. The Haggigah (the additional lamb) was offered in addition to the Pesach (the Passover lamb). The Pesach was required, but the Haggigah was not because it was a freewill offering.

Very good exegisis Visionary, and can't you see how this second lamb could represent "us". Yeshua's sacrifice was NEEDED, and now we who are in union with this lamb (the other lambs) by freewill sacrifice ourselves on his 'cross', so to speak.

visionary

24th February 2005, 04:40 PM

Very good exegisis Visionary, and can't you see how this second lamb could represent "us". Yeshua's sacrifice was NEEDED, and now we who are in union with this lamb (the other lambs) by freewill sacrifice ourselves on his 'cross', so to speak.And it could also be His freewill offering of Himself upon the cross... for they were right... he could have come down from the cross any time He wanted to.

By Grace

24th February 2005, 06:18 PM

Evening of the start of the 14th day of Nissan

- Yeshua has Passover Seder with the disciples with passover lamb prepared for home seder meals

- Around midnight Yeshua is arrested and the until daybreak the tribunal is held.

Okay, here's where I have the problem. I've read some correlations where they say Yeshua is crucified at the same time as the Passover lambs at the Temple. As the cohen blows the shofar, and as the lambs were being sacrificed, Yeshua was dying on the cross:

He was hung as the lambs for Pasache were being slaughtered in the temple.

I thought that Yeshua dying at the moment of the 9th hour (3:00pm right?) was VERY significant because at that moment the shofar blew in Jerusalem, signifying that the passover lamb had been sacrificed for the sins of the people. And at that moment, the True Passover Lamb said "it is finished.".... at least that's how I've seen it.

But how can Yeshua be crucified at the same time the lamb is being sacrificed, if Yeshua ate some of the lamb the night before.

Why would they be sacrificing lambs on the day of the 14th, when they were supposed to be eating those lambs the night before (on the evening of the 14th).

visionary

24th February 2005, 06:25 PM

http://www.hebroots.org/chap3.html#CHAP3

go down the page a bit and read... hope it helps.

MyLittleWonders

24th February 2005, 09:32 PM

So, are there two Pesach meals - one on the 14th and one on the 15? I'm confused. :scratch:

The high priest (Cohen HaGadol) kills the Passover (Pesach) lamb for the nation of Israel at 3:00 p.m. on the fourteenth of Nisan. At sundown, the fifteenth begins, so Yeshua would have to eat His Passover lamb by midnight of the fourteenth of Nisan, which is prior to the time that the high priest kills the Passover lamb for the nation.

Can someone explain this to me in layman's terms? ;) Thanks! Oh, and when do we eat the Pesach meal - on the 14th or 15th?

By Grace

25th February 2005, 12:04 PM

At sundown, the fifteenth begins, so Yeshua would have to eat His Passover lamb by midnight of the fourteenth of Nisan, which is prior to the time that the high priest kills the Passover lamb for the nation.

Exactly! Where did the lamb that Yeshua ate come from, if the lamb had not yet been sacrificed at the Temple?

shmuel

25th February 2005, 12:25 PM

The Passover lambs were killed on the afternoon of the 14th. The Passover meal (Seder) occurred that evening which after sundown was the 15th.

Outside of Israel there are two seders. The first seder on the 15th and the second seder on the 16th.

S

plum

25th February 2005, 12:31 PM

Once again, Yeshua ate the Passover (Luke 22:15). You can have a Seder without a Pesach (or Passover lamb), but you cannot have a lamb without a Seder. Also, since Yeshua was the Passover Lamb of G-d (John [Yochanan] 1:29), He had to come to Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) from Bethany not only to be the Passover (Pesach) lamb, but also for the Seder (Mark 14:3,12-16). So, Yeshua was having a Passover lamb (Luke 22:15), and it was a Seder. Today, there is no temple (Beit HaMikdash), so the Passover Seder is held on the fifteenth or sixteenth of Nisan. The Seder on the fifteenth is called the First Seder, and the Seder on the sixteenth is called the Second Seder.
http://www.hebroots.org/tab.gifIn Mark 14:12, it is written, "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover [the Pesach lamb]...." The word translated as first is the Greek word protos, which means "before, earlier, and preceding." Because there was a temple (Beit HaMikdash) in Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) in the days of Yeshua, the First Seder would be on the fourteenth of Nisan, and the Second Seder on the fifteenth. The Seder could be held on either night. Yeshua had His Passover (Pesach) Seder by midnight on the fourteenth of Nisan (remember that the fourteenth of Nisan begins at sundown, which is roughly six hours prior to midnight), and was crucified the next afternoon at 3:00 p.m., which is still the fourteenth of Nisan.
http://www.hebroots.org/tab.gifThe high priest (Cohen HaGadol) kills the Passover (Pesach) lamb for the nation of Israel at 3:00 p.m. on the fourteenth of Nisan. At sundown, the fifteenth begins, so Yeshua would have to eat His Passover lamb by midnight of the fourteenth of Nisan, which is prior to the time that the high priest kills the Passover lamb for the nation. To further prove this, in John (Yochanan) 18:28, when Yeshua was brought before Pilate, Caiaphas the high priest (Cohen HaGadol) wouldn't enter the judgment hall of the Gentile ruler because he would be defiled and couldn't eat the Passover lamb. So, this event must have taken place on the morning of the fourteenth of Nisan because the high priest had not yet eaten the Passover. If he was defiled, he would be defiled for one day. Since Yeshua had already eaten the Passover by the time He was seized and taken before Caiaphas and Pilate, He had to have eaten the Passover with the disciples on the evening of the fourteenth. Thus, we can see how Yeshua ate a Passover meal and could still fulfill being the Passover Lamb of G-d by being killed at 3:00 p.m. on the fourteenth of Nisan.

This cleared it up for me. yay

By Grace

25th February 2005, 01:06 PM

And why were the sacrifices taking place during the day on the 14th? Shouldn't the lambs have been killed in the evening of the 14th, at sundown on the 14th? That's when the Israelites killed the lambs in Egypt, so that they could eat the lambs that evening during the night of the 14th and have the blood for putting on their doorframes overnight on the 14th. If they had waited until after sunrise on the 14th, during the afternoon, it would have been too late!

You are to keep it until the 14th day of the month, and then the entire assembly of the community of Isra'el will slaughter it at dusk. They are to take some of the blood and smear it on the two sides and top of the door-frame at the entrance of the house in which they eat it. That night, they are to eat the meat, roasted in the fire; they are to eat it with matzah and maror. Don't eat it raw or boiled, but roasted in the fire, with its head, the lower parts of its legs and its inner organs. Let nothing of it remain till morning; if any of it does remain, burn it up completely.

When is dusk?

In the first month, on the 14th day of the month, between sundown and complete darkness, comes Pesach for Adonai.

And also, at this first Pesach, every family killed their own lambs. Is that just b/c there was no Temple, or is that the way they continued to do it for centuries? Where in Torah is the place of the slaughter of the Pesach lamb moved from each individual household to the Temple? It looks like the lamb was just slaughtered, not sacrificed.

Vis, thanks for the link. I'm reading through it. Chumney says, though, that no work was to be done on Passover. I thought it was the day after Passover, the 1st day of Matzah that was a day of rest:

The Passover (Pesach) feast was to be a holy convocation, and no work was to be done (Exodus [Shemot] 12:16).

In the first month, on the 14th day of the month, between sundown and complete darkness, comes Pesach for Adonai. On the 15th day of the same month is the festival of matzah; for seven days you are to eat matzah. On the first day you are to have a holy convocation; don't do any kind of ordinary work. Bring an offering made by fire to Adonai for seven days. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; do not do any kind of ordinary work.

By Grace

25th February 2005, 01:11 PM

"Today, there is no temple (Beit HaMikdash), so the Passover Seder is held on the fifteenth or sixteenth of Nisan. The Seder on the fifteenth is called the First Seder, and the Seder on the sixteenth is called the Second Seder."

"Because there was a temple (Beit HaMikdash) in Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) in the days of Yeshua, the First Seder would be on the fourteenth of Nisan, and the Second Seder on the fifteenth. The Seder could be held on either night."

What does not having a Temple have to do with having a seder on the 15th and 16th? And why 2 seders to begin with? :confused: :confused:

By Grace

25th February 2005, 01:16 PM

Okay, I found this in D'varim:

"You are to sacrifice the Pesach offering from flock and herd to Adonai your God in the place where Adonai will choose to ahve his name live." (16:2)

Yerushalayim, right? Necessarily at the Temple, or just somewhere in the city?

And also:

"You may not sacrifice the Pesach offering in just any of the towns that Adonai your God is giving you; but at the place where Adonai your God will choose to have his name live--there is where you are to sacrifice the Pesach offering, in the evening, when the sun sets, at the time of year that you came out of Egypt." (16:5-6)

visionary

25th February 2005, 01:28 PM

Vis, thanks for the link. I'm reading through it. Chumney says, though, that no work was to be done on Passover. I thought it was the day after Passover, the 1st day of Matzah that was a day of rest:The Lord points out here that the first day of the unleaven bread is a sacred assembly Lev 23:4 'These are the LORD's appointed feasts, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times: 5 The LORD's Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. 6 On the fifteenth day of that month the LORD's Feast of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast. 7 On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work. 8 For seven days present an offering made to the LORD by fire. And on the seventh day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.

By Grace

25th February 2005, 05:19 PM

The Lord points out here that the first day of the unleaven bread is a sacred assembly

First day of Matzah (Nisan 15), right? Not Pesach?

visionary

25th February 2005, 06:03 PM

First day of Matzah (Nisan 15), right? Not Pesach?Yes, from what I understand, so far, Passover is a moed, an appointed time, but is not considered one of the annual sabbaths. The first day of Matzah is Nisan 15... yes

By Grace

1st March 2005, 01:00 PM

Bump :)

Tishri1

1st March 2005, 03:53 PM

Why would they have been eating matzah if it wasn't Pesach (isn't Pesach the first day of Unleavened Bread? This is my first year to celebrate it, so I'm not sure...)

At some point along the way, I read that perhaps the Pharisees had their dates wrong, that the real Pesach was the day that Yeshua was crucified, and that they were celebrating a day late. This would tie back to how they had changed the calendar, though I know a lot of that didn't happen until well after the 1st centuray CE.

I'm interested in hearing more, if you have more to add. Since I haven't celebrated Pesach yet, it's all still pretty blurry to me. I'm hoping I'll understand more about the timeline of it all after this spring's celebrations.

Hi everyone, Tishri here I'm new since yesterday...The way I learned this was that if a person knew that they were not going to be in town on Passover or if they were unable to partake of the passover at that time ,then they could bring a lamb at anytime to the temple , tell the priest this is my passover lamb, sacrifice and take it and have the feast. This would work for Yeshua, since He would be killed before passover, and His disciples would have understood his need to partake in a secluded place as his life was being plotted against anyway.I believe the ruling for this is in the Mishnah.

See ya, Tishri1:wave:

Sephania

2nd March 2005, 11:54 AM

Sephania

2nd March 2005, 11:56 AM

Oh, and if this is in the Mishnah, since when did Yeshua follow laws of man that overrided those of G-d?

By your tradition you make null and void the word of G-d! You hypocrites!

Tishri1

2nd March 2005, 12:26 PM

I have never heard of such a thing, would someone like to verify this?

1. Yeshua was in town.
2. If you were there to start with what could be so pressing that you would leave?
3. If you were 20 years old or older and male it was a commandment that you be there, on the right day.
4. How can you bring a lamb at anytime and declair that it is your passover lamb? Doesn't this totally fly in the face of HaSehms calendar of Moedim? Isn't this like those who say that Yeshua was born on Dec 25th, and even if he wasn't that is what they are celebrating that day to?
5. Yeshua was not in a secluded place, he was in the Old City so I dont' understand how his talmidim would 'understand'?

Sorry, I will try to find it for you...It's not that HE wasn't in town, but that he wasn't able to be there for the Passover on Passover, because He was the Lamb slain ... explaining why his Seder with the disciples was the day before...I thought that was the original question, sorry if I got the question wrong. I will search for the Mishnah quote today for you, I thought it was nuts at first too, but It did explain why He had a Seder meal 24 hours earlier than the rest of Isreal. It could have been the date thing ...that the Jews had the date wrong from the beginning, and Yeshua was really on the correct night... but we don't see Him celebrating any other Passover in the previous years on the day before, and also that would have put the remaining festivals off by a day, but as we can see the Holy Spirit/Ruach Ha Codesh fell ON Penticost/Shavaot and not the day before....It's just an explaination that fits, and I will definately find the reference for you Zayit:)

See Ya, Tishri1

By Grace

2nd March 2005, 12:45 PM

So, Zayit, after reading all the discussion thus far, what are your thoughts now? Do you think Yeshua's last supper was a Pesach seder or not?

(I think I'm more confused than ever!)

visionary

2nd March 2005, 12:51 PM

So, Zayit, after reading all the discussion thus far, what are your thoughts now? Do you think Yeshua's last supper was a Pesach seder or not?

(I think I'm more confused than ever!)You must become like a child and put your head on the floor and look between your legs to see it.

http://www3.christianforums.com/images/mood/Happy.gif Sorry couldn't help myself...your little one looks so happy and cute...

Tishri1

2nd March 2005, 12:52 PM

Oh, and if this is in the Mishnah, since when did Yeshua follow laws of man that overrided those of G-d?

By your tradition you make null and void the word of G-d! You hypocrites! Well Here we may just have a case of two points of view. I believe that the Mishnah is a valid Document, and that Moshe had recieved from The Father more than what was written in the Torah. Here is a reason: The Torah tells us to slay a lamb on Passover, the Mishnah tells us how it should be done. Yeshua quotes the Mishnah alot. When ever you hear Him say "You have heared it said...but I say..." He is quoting the Mishnah (and not condeming it but bringing it to it's fullest meaning) So I guess it's how you look at it :)

By Grace

2nd March 2005, 02:03 PM

You must become like a child and put your head on the floor and look between your legs to see it.

http://www3.christianforums.com/images/mood/Happy.gif Sorry couldn't help myself...your little one looks so happy and cute...

:idea: :idea:

Okay, I'll try that...

( :wave: ) 0773H

Hmm, now I'm seeing stars :eek:

I don't think it worked, Vis :( ;) :D

But thanks for the compliment! :hug:

Now if I can get myself off the floor long enough to feed that "happy and cute" little one! The offspring beckons... :help: ^_^

lonnienord

2nd March 2005, 02:14 PM

Sephania

2nd March 2005, 03:13 PM

So, Zayit, after reading all the discussion thus far, what are your thoughts now? Do you think Yeshua's last supper was a Pesach seder or not?

(I think I'm more confused than ever!) I hear ya girl!;)

As this was taking place over the last week my mind wasn't exactly fully functional. As I continued to read through it I still could not make heads nor tails. I just saw this last post of tishri's and would like to hear more.

Despite the twisitings and turnings of calendars, church practices, etc, I have to say for Yeshua to be Moshiach he would have to be put to death at the same time as HaShem said the Passover lambs were to be slaughtered. That is all I am sure of at this point.

Sephania

2nd March 2005, 03:16 PM

i really enjoyed reading this and learned some interesting things. Many years ago i was invited by a Jewish family to celebrate a sader (sp?) with them. I was amazed how similar it was to the Catholic Mass. Have any of you been to a mass? Do you see it as similar?
Yes, the passover is slain every year, every year a sacrifice for sin is made, over and over and over, but the blood of lambs never covers our sins, but the blood of G-ds lamb did once and for all. And the difference is that this lamb came back to life, everlasting, Amein!

Pasach should be remembered for its fruitlessness, but Yeshua should be remembered for his attaining life for us. :bow:

Tishri1

2nd March 2005, 05:12 PM

Hi Zayit, Well I got my trusty Mishnah out and just like I thought ,I can't make sence of it:sorry: .We studied this (The Mishnah) last summer and I was so facinated by all the questions that were answered in it like this one, (about how Yeshua could have had His passover lamb the night before everyone else had their passover lamb) but the hardest thing is to find the answers on my own as I am still a child at it.. So tonight I will call my Teacher and ask exactly where it is in there.:)

I agree that it all boils down to the Fact that He was the passover lamb :clap: for us...

SEE YA, Tishri1:wave:

Sephania

2nd March 2005, 05:43 PM

Todah tishri, I look forward to the answer! :)

By Grace

2nd March 2005, 06:25 PM

Despite the twisitings and turnings of calendars, church practices, etc, I have to say for Yeshua to be Moshiach he would have to be put to death at the same time as HaShem said the Passover lambs were to be slaughtered. That is all I am sure of at this point.

I agree on this. It doesn't matter when the rabbis thought it should be done, whether they were right or not. Yeshua would have been slain at the time appointed by HaShem for the Pesach lamb to be slain. And Yeshua would have eaten the Pesach meal ONLY at the time the Pesach meal should have been eaten, as determined by HaShem. Since the lamb was slain BEFORE the meal, I just don't see how it's possible that the Last Supper was a Pesach seder. :confused:

Tishri1

2nd March 2005, 07:43 PM

Luke 22:7-13 7 Then came the first day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8 And He sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and prepare the Passover for us, that we may eat it." 9 And they said to Him, "Where do You want us to prepare it?" 10 And He said to them, "Behold, when you have entered the city, a man will meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him into the house that he enters. 11 "And you shall say to the owner of the house, 'The Teacher says to you, "Where is the guest room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples?"' 12 "And he will show you a large, furnished, upper room; prepare it there." 13 And they departed and found everything just as He had told them; and they prepared the Passover.

Well I located the scripture that said that the meal was a Passover meal but look at the beginning of the verse:eek: .....

visionary

2nd March 2005, 08:31 PM

Then came the first day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificedJusst when you thought you were getting somewhere...

Shimshon

2nd March 2005, 08:36 PM

Remember their are discrepancies in the accounts. AND the fact that Pesach was seen and declared as part of 'the Feast of Unleavened Bread'. So you have 'this' account stating so. The "feast" included Pesach. They are inseperable. Without the lamb sacrificed the angel of death would have killed the first born jews too, and there would have been no reason to eat unleaven bread because we would have not been going anywhere the next day. Except maybe back to slavery.

Tishri1

2nd March 2005, 11:27 PM

yeh your right, there's usually a good explanation when scripture contradicts itself, or sounds like it does anyway:)

John 13:1-4 NAS John 13:1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He should depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. 2 And during supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him, 3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God, and was going back to God, 4 rose from supper, and laid aside His garments; and taking a towel, He girded Himself about.

Ahhh that's better....but here we have a supper, not a Seder:scratch:

Well it sure keeps us on our toes :)

see ya, Tishri1:wave: