Meat and Dairy

[mjterry87]

My youth leader told me that we are allowed to eat meat and dairy because in the Torah it only says that you should not boil a lamb in its Mother's milk which was origionally a way to cook back then, anyways she said that no where in the Torah does it say that you can't have meat and dairy, and that the rule was just made up by Rabbis in the middle ages. Is she correct?

[Wags]

Your question reminded me of a joke: (http://www.haruth.com/jhumorlink.htm)

A Dialogue while Moses is at the top of Sinai....

G: And remember Moses, in the laws of keeping Kosher, never cook a calf in its mother's milk. It is cruel.

Moses: Ohhhhhh! So you are saying we should never eat milk and meat together.

G: No, what I'm saying is, never cook a calf in its mother's milk.

Moses: Oh, Lord forgive my ignorance! What you are really saying is we should wait six hours after eating meat to eat milk so the two are not in our stomachs.

G: No, Moses, what I'm saying is, don't cook a calf in its mother's milk!!!

Moses: Oh, Lord! Please don't strike me down for my stupidity! What you mean is we should have a separate set of dishes for milk and a separate set for meat and if we make a mistake we have to bury that dish outside....

G: Ah, do whatever you want....

[Ahavah]

:D HAHAHhahahaahaaa:D

[Sephania]

Your question reminded me of a joke: (http://www.haruth.com/jhumorlink.htm):D That is another reason why he was gone so long up on the mountain!;)

[shmuel]

Notice what Avraham served his visitors in Gen 18:8.

S

[Talmidah]

Here's my quick take on this issue (I'm not arguing or trying to debate). I agree with the separation of meat and dairy, although I think some aspects have been taken to an extreme. HOWEVER, what I wanted to mention was that when I was active in a messianic congregation, this issue would come up often. Some people just made fun of the whole 'separation thing', while others could see some insight that could be gotten from it, even if they acknowledged that it was directly in Torah [ie a tangible symbol of not mixing life (dairy) with death (meat)]. And others saw no reason at all for it, but would keep a 'rabbinically' kosher kitchen for the simple fact that they wanted to make sure that a person with a stricter level of kashrut would be able to eat in their home. Basically, out of courtesy.

[mjterry87]

Here's my quick take on this issue (I'm not arguing or trying to debate). I agree with the separation of meat and dairy, although I think some aspects have been taken to an extreme. HOWEVER, what I wanted to mention was that when I was active in a messianic congregation, this issue would come up often. Some people just made fun of the whole 'separation thing', while others could see some insight that could be gotten from it, even if they acknowledged that it was directly in Torah [ie a tangible symbol of not mixing life (dairy) with death (meat)]. And others saw no reason at all for it, but would keep a 'rabbinically' kosher kitchen for the simple fact that they wanted to make sure that a person with a stricter level of kashrut would be able to eat in their home. Basically, out of courtesy.

Ok, so what should we do, eat dairy and mean together, or not?

P.S.- I did not get the joke.

[The Thadman]

Ok, so what should we do, eat dairy and mean together, or not?

P.S.- I did not get the joke.

In summary, -Biblically- there is no command against eating milk and meat together (with the exception of a goat kid in its own mother's milk, stated 3 times, verbatim in the Torah). If you wish, have your cheeseburgers, enjoy them, God smiles upon you. :) (That's what I do.)

However, it is traditionally held by rabbinic invention this "hedge" that milk and meat should be kept seperate as a potent teaching metaphor that was later cannonized into rabbinic "Oral Law."

Peace!
-Steve-o

[Bruce101]

MJTerry,
The best thing to do is to find out where the ruling comes from and what the Bible actually says about it. In this case the actual verses says not to boil a kid in it's mothers milk. Then decide for yourself if you want to go by what the Bible says, or follow the Rabbinical fences, (which at times may be good, or not). Find the source, then decide. You should always do this with any of the commands Question the command, search it out.

Bruce

[Jasmine-FL]

Let us not forget that Abraham did serve milk and meat together when he was offering a meal to the angelic beings. I was also told by a messianic rabbi that there are other instances in the Bible where milk and meat are eaten together.

[Pray4Isrel]

In summary, -Biblically- there is no command against eating milk and meat together (with the exception of a goat kid in its own mother's milk, stated 3 times, verbatim in the Torah). If you wish, have your cheeseburgers, enjoy them, God smiles upon you. :) (That's what I do.)

However, it is traditionally held by rabbinic invention this "hedge" that milk and meat should be kept seperate as a potent teaching metaphor that was later cannonized into rabbinic "Oral Law."

Peace!
-Steve-o

I am in agreement with you :thumbsup:

[Henaynei]

Let us not forget that Abraham did serve milk and meat together when he was offering a meal to the angelic beings. I was also told by a messianic rabbi that there are other instances in the Bible where milk and meat are eaten together.be careful in assuming that Avraham served milk and meat together:


1 ADONAI appeared to Avraham by the oaks of Mamre as he sat at the entrance to the tent during the heat of the day. 2 He raised his eyes and looked, and there in front of him stood three men. On seeing them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, prostrated himself on the ground, 3 and said, "My lord, if I have found favor in your sight, please don't leave your servant. 4 Please let me send for some water, so that you can wash your feet; then rest under the tree, 5 and I will bring a piece of bread. Now that you have come to your servant, refresh yourselves before going on.""Very well," they replied, "do what you have said." 6 Avraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, "Quickly, three measures of the best flour! Knead it and make cakes." 7 Avraham ran to the herd, took a good, tender calf and gave it to the servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 Then he took curds, milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it all before the men; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate.

It was custom to refresh and feed travelers (share bread and salt) when they approached your camp in peace. As we see, Avraham called for water to wash their feet. Then he instructed our mother Sarah to prepare bread/cakes. Then he had his heardsmen prepare a calf to eat. Let us look at these.....

The washing of the feet was immediate
The preparing or the cakes/break would have been quick for the kind of bread would have been similar to pita or the flat bread still traditionally cooked in bedouin camps where a quick mixture of flour is thrown and spread over a hot stone or aganist the side of a hot metal cooking bowl - it is cooked quickly and served hot
The curds and milk also were quick as the milk was "at hand" by milking a sheep and curds were easily kept in a salty brine and readily available......

However, the meat, the roasting of a calf, takes hours, many hours, no matter who much one hurries ;)

So, it is AT LEAST as likely that there was some considerable separation of time between when the visitors ate the milk and ate the meat (since it is unlikely that one would make one's travel weary guests wait hours to eat anything) as it is that they ate them all together.......

Additionally, the mitzvot of Torah were given @ Sinai and are instructions on how to live as a separated/holy people before HaShem...... the fences that the Rabbis have placed are there to assist us in our obedience and observance......

Each man will go in the way that seems right to him, unless he chooses to follow the way set before the community of the observant by earnest teachers.

We each must stand before HaShem and explain why or why not we chose to follow the traditions and instructions of the community that sought to earnestly obey Him even to the nuances of daily choices :)

[chunkofcoal]

Don't boil a kid in it's mother's milk = Don't use what should have been for nourishment to destroy the little ones?

[Sephania]

I would be more concerned that the assumption was not that all three were angels. :)

1 ADONAI appeared to Avraham by the oaks of Mamre as he sat at the entrance to the tent during the heat of the day. 2 He raised his eyes and looked, and there in front of him stood three men. On seeing them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, prostrated himself on the ground, 3 and said, "My lord, if I have found favor in your sight, please don't leave your servant. 4 Please let me send for some water, so that you can wash your feet; then rest under the tree, 5 and I will bring a piece of bread. Now that you have come to your servant, refresh yourselves before going on.""Very well," they replied, "do what you have said." 6 Avraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, "Quickly, three measures of the best flour! Knead it and make cakes." 7 Avraham ran to the herd, took a good, tender calf and gave it to the servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 Then he took curds, milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it all before the men; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate.

Both words in red are the same, mawhar which means to do something with haste, fast, quickly. According to the scripture, it was the heat of the day which is somewhere between 1-2pm. Now ( assuming they were in flesh bodies and they waked in the flesh) they were going from Mamre ( Hebron) to Sodom from the top of the mountains down to the valley, craggy pathways so not on a straight course. The distance between the two is approx 18 miles, more or less. It takes an average person approx 6 hours to walk that distance and that is on a fairly flat surface. The two angels arrived in Sodom in the early evening ( not after dark).

Besides, it doesn't say anywhere that the calf, or kid was cooked. ;)

[mjterry87]

I have made my decision, I am not going to eat meat and dairy together. Here are the two reasons why:

1) When I keep a rabbanical kosher diet, I am living different from the mainstream, and in our society Torah is out and the wants of man are in, so in effort to furthur my relationship with HaShem, I will keep this law.

2) Secondly, I reel that rabinical Judaism is good, and if Rabbis have come up with this law, I will listen to them. They know Torah better than I do, and they know more about HaShem than I do.

[Henaynei]

I have made my decision, I am not going to eat meat and dairy together. Here are the two reasons why:

1) When I keep a rabbanical kosher diet, I am living different from the mainstream, and in our society Torah is out and the wants of man are in, so in effort to furthur my relationship with HaShem, I will keep this law.

2) Secondly, I reel that rabinical Judaism is good, and if Rabbis have come up with this law, I will listen to them. They know Torah better than I do, and they know more about HaShem than I do.This is a worthy attitude, one that is humble and honors HaShem. :thumbsup: It also honors HaShem for you to continue to be as the Bereans, studying continiously to see what is so :) I, too, honor and follow the halakah of the Rabbis. I also study Torah and in those few places where the teachings of the Rabbis countermand the instruction of Torah I chose to follow Torah, of course. But, my attitude toward learning the instructions of the Rabbis remains: I will follow their wisdom on issues of obedience unless and until I discover clear instruction in Torah to do otherwise ;)

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[mjterry87]

This is a worthy attitude, one that is humble and honors HaShem. :thumbsup: It also honors HaShem for you to continue to be as the Bereans, studying continiously to see what is so :) I, too, honor and follow the halakah of the Rabbis. I also study Torah and in those few places where the teachings of the Rabbis countermand the instruction of Torah I chose to follow Torah, of course. But, my attitude toward learning the instructions of the Rabbis remains: I will follow their wisdom on issues of obedience unless and until I discover clear instruction in Torah to do otherwise ;)

b'Shalom
Henaynei


Thanks Henaynei. I have not talked to you in a long time, nice to hear from you again.

[Bon]

I read somewhere recently that the meaning of
"do not boil a kid in it's mother's milk,"

meant that we should not eat a kid who was still suckling on it's mother.

Something I read....what do you think?

Shalom from Bon

[Henaynei]

I read somewhere recently that the meaning of
"do not boil a kid in it's mother's milk,"

meant that we should not eat a kid who was still suckling on it's mother.

Something I read....what do you think?

Shalom from BonI've never seen a Jewish source with that POV.....

[The Thadman]

8 Then he took curds, milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it all before the men; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate.

I'd say that says it all (read: all at once). ;)

Peace!
-Steve-o

[Henaynei]

I'd say that says it all (read: all at once). ;)

Peace!
-Steve-oLOL - you know I don't agree with your suggestion - however..........

Blessed Natal Rememberances on this day, and blessings on she whose labor brought you forth!:thumbsup:

[Sephania]

I have made my decision, I am not going to eat meat and dairy together. Here are the two reasons why:

1) When I keep a rabbanical kosher diet, I am living different from the mainstream, and in our society Torah is out and the wants of man are in, so in effort to furthur my relationship with HaShem, I will keep this law.

2) Secondly, I reel that rabinical Judaism is good, and if Rabbis have come up with this law, I will listen to them. They know Torah better than I do, and they know more about HaShem than I do.

You do better listening to the L-RD your G-D.

If you do this Michael, do you realize you will not be able to eat in any resturant unless it is Kosher certified? You will not even be able to eat in your own house, from your mothers table unless she does a radical remodel.

By your statement it seems to me that you don't think that following the biblical Kosher will set you apart "enough" from the rest of the world?

You are not furthuring your relationship with HaShem by following a tradition of man, Yeshua was plain on that matter. Read this please.


Hear what Yeshua says:
Mark
1 The P'rushim and some of the Torah-teachers who had come from Yerushalayim gathered together with Yeshua 2 and saw that some of his talmidim ate with ritually unclean hands, that is, without doing n'tilat-yadayim. 3 (For the P'rushim, and indeed all the Judeans, holding fast to the Tradition of the Elders, do not eat unless they have given their hands a ceremonial washing. 4 Also, when they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they have rinsed their hands up to the wrist; and they adhere to many other traditions, such as washing cups, pots and bronze vessels.) 5 The P'rushim and the Torah-teachers asked him, "Why don't your talmidim live in accordance with the Tradition of the Elders, but instead eat with ritually unclean hands?"
6 Yeshua answered them, "Yesha`yahu was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites -- as it is written,

`These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away from me. 7 Their worship of me is useless, because they teach man-made rules as if they were doctrines.'

8 "You depart from God's command and hold onto human tradition. Indeed,"
9 he said to them, "you have made a fine art of departing from God's command in order to keep your tradition!

10 For Moshe said, `Honor your father and your mother,' and `Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 11 But you say, `If someone says to his father or mother, "I have promised as a korban" ' " (that is, as a gift to God) " ` "what I might have used to help you," ' 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13 Thus, with your tradition which you had handed down to you, you nullify the Word of God! And you do other things like this."

14 Then Yeshua called the people to him again and said, "Listen to me, all of you, and understand this! 15 There is nothing outside a person which, by going into him, can make him unclean. Rather, it is the things that come out of a person which make a person unclean!" 16 Some manuscripts include verse 16: "Anyone who has ears that can hear, let him hear!" 17 When he had left the people and entered the house, his talmidim asked him about the parable. 18 He replied to them, "So you too are without understanding? Don't you see that nothing going into a person from outside can make him unclean? 19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and it passes out into the latrine." 20 "It is what comes out of a person," he went on, "that makes him unclean. 21 For from within, out of a person's heart, come forth wicked thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, indecency, envy, slander, arrogance, foolishness... 23 All these wicked things come from within, and they make a person unclean."

[Henaynei]

Following Torah is a growing process - it is not an "all or nothing" - never was, never will be - as we all know no man can keep Torah 100% without fail - that is why all need redemption :) The teachings of the rabbis are most often good, but Yeshua did have a consistant admonition.... Follow the Torah and the Teachings ONLY out of love for HaShem and His ways - it is LOVE that will truly separate us from the world, for if we truly Love HaShem we will then also love those He loves.

We are to obey *as best we can* - ever seeking to grow - and yet we are to avoid the pit into which some of the P'rushim had fallen - they did things LARGE and LOUD so that they might be seen of men as to what poius and righteous "servants" of HaShem they were (as if to say "See, See how much I *really* love HaSehm!!!) - but Yeshua said:

Mattityahu 23:1-3
Then spoke Yeshua to the multitude, and to his disciples, saying,
"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not after their works: for they say, and do not."


But yet again:

Mt 6:2 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=mt+6:2&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=mt+6:2&version=cjb&context=1&showtools=1) So, when you do tzedakah, don't announce it with trumpets to win people's praise, like the hypocrites in the synagogues and on the streets. Yes! I tell you, they have their reward already!

Mt 6:5 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=mt+6:5&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=mt+6:5&version=cjb&context=1&showtools=1) "When you pray, don't be like the hypocrites, who love to pray standing in the synagogues and on street corners, so that people can see them. Yes! I tell you, they have their reward already!

Mt 6:16 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=mt+6:16&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=mt+6:16&version=cjb&context=1&showtools=1) "Now when you fast, don't go around looking miserable, like the hypocrites. They make sour faces so that people will know they are fasting. Yes! I tell you, they have their reward already!

If G-d says it once it is worth remembering, if He says it more than once you'd best study it until it is engraved upon your heart!!


Be EVER sure that your motives are pure heart and face before HaShem, and care little whether any man EVER accepts or understands you....... for "the arm of flesh will always fail you" - only the arm of HaShem is abiding :)

[chunkofcoal]

So, when you do tzedakah, don't announce it with trumpets to win people's praise, like the hypocrites in the synagogues and on the streets. Yes! I tell you, they havetheirreward already!

The people's praise was their reward.

"When you pray, don't be like the hypocrites, who love to pray standing in the synagogues and on street corners, so that people can see them. Yes! I tell you, they havetheirreward already!


People seeing them was their reward.

"Now when you fast, don't go around looking miserable, like the hypocrites. They make sour faces so that people will know they are fasting. Yes! I tell you, they havetheirreward already!

The people knowing that they were fasting was their reward.

[Henaynei]

So, when you do tzedakah, don't announce it with trumpets to win people's praise, like the hypocrites in the synagogues and on the streets. Yes! I tell you, they havetheirreward already!

The people's praise was their reward.

"When you pray, don't be like the hypocrites, who love to pray standing in the synagogues and on street corners, so that people can see them. Yes! I tell you, they havetheirreward already!


People seeing them was their reward.

"Now when you fast, don't go around looking miserable, like the hypocrites. They make sour faces so that people will know they are fasting. Yes! I tell you, they havetheirreward already!

The people knowing that they were fasting was their reward. Yes, exactly :)

[debi b]

... for if we truly Love HaShem we will then also love those He loves.

That is worth restating ;)