Out Of Church Christians

[Tavita]

The following article was written by Andrew Strom, one of New Zealands leading 'prophetic' voices, who now resides in the US. I thought I would post this to show that what we are experiencing now is, what I believe to be, a world wide phenomena, instigated by Holy Spirit. The 'new thing' of the last days?


"OUT OF CHURCH" Christians -by Andrew Strom.

I am writing on a rather unusual topic today. On Monday night (31 March) I was invited onto a Christian Radio show in New Zealand to discuss the growing numbers of "Out-of- church" Christians in the West - people who have left the churches for various reasons but still claim a strong Christian faith. It was a very interesting night, and the phones ran hot. This "Out-of-church" phenomenon has now grown so large that books are being written about it. In fact, several years ago I heard an estimate that there are TENS OF THOUSANDS of such Christians just in our largest city (-Auckland) alone. And I believe it is the same right across the Western nations.

I have personally come into contact with literally hundreds of such people. The surprising thing is that they are often the most committed kind of Christians - praying, insightful, deep- thinking. Yet they have grown tired of "playing the game" inside our church system and have opted out. Often their involvement goes back many years. In fact, they had commonly been leaders of various kinds. But now they have left. Why? The church obviously finds this a very difficult thing to explain or deal with. The usual accusations are often trotted out: "So-and-so has been hurt and has a root of bitterness". Or they are in "rebellion". Or they are "not a team player". Or they are "backsliding". But if you talk to these people you will often find that they have been sitting in church for years and years, and they simply cannot stand to sit and watch the same old game being played any more. The LACK OF GOD is what gets to them - even in our most "Spirit-filled" churches. WHERE IS GOD IN ALL OF OUR ACTIVITY? Surely this is not the way it is supposed to be? New fads and programs come and go, but the mediocrity and LACK OF GOD just seem to go on forever. And so quietly, sometimes without anyone even noticing, they slowly slip out the doors - never to return. Some have even told me that they felt God "calling them out". Others simply felt they couldn't stay there anymore. The state of the church weighed upon them more than words could say. Very often they did the rounds of other churches, hoping against hope that they would find a place that felt "right" in any way. (-Though most of them are not "church-hoppers" by nature). But the places they visited never seemed any more "right" than the place they had left. And after a while it just seemed easier to stay at home with God.

As I said earlier, most of these people have not given up on Christianity at all. It is today's church system that they have given up on. And we are talking about large numbers here. Thousands are already opting out. And many feel like they are "waiting" for something. Some of these people have started up
home-fellowships. Or they meet with other couples on a casual basis. But many meet with nobody at all, and they consider themselves in a 'Wilderness' place - alone with God. (-Very common). I was asked several weeks ago by a pastor whether I agreed that what is happening could be a 'move of God'. That is a pretty radical thought. Many leaders would think the opposite. Because anything that leads people out of "their church" can't be of God, can it? Hmmmm. All I know is this: The concept of going through a 'Wilderness' just before entering the 'Promised Land' is totally Scriptural. In fact, it is right through the Bible. Even Jesus went through such a wilderness time. But it is not possible to stay "alone" forever. Some day, if these people are going to be part of a new move of God's Spirit, they are going to have to come out of their wilderness and become part of the "BODY" that Jesus brings together - the 'new wineskin' that will come with this new move of God. Otherwise they could miss out. That is the great danger.

I'm sure there are many on this List with comments or testimonies relating to this topic. I would love to hear from you. It really is becoming a significant issue in the church.
God bless you, my friends.
Kindest regards in Christ,
Andrew Strom. --

[xenia]

As I said earlier, most of these people have not given up on Christianity at all. It is today's church system that they have given up on.

This has been my observation as well.

[Bevlina]

And mine too.

[loribee59]

Excellent post, Tavvie!

That's exactly how I'm feeling right now, I'm unchurched at the mo, and will try another church tomorrow. But like the article says, people aren't church-hopping just for the heck of it, they're looking for a church that feeds them "properly", when all they've been fed are "JUNK". They're not being fed the "MEAT" of the gospel; they're still being fed "MILK"!

But...what about people who would say that it's not scriptural to leave the fellowship and the church? I could do without the "JUNK" in the church, but I can't just sit at home and be lonely! And it's HARD finding a "home church" here in Salem! :( what a dilemma!

[loribee59]

most of these people have not given up on Christianity at all. It is today's church system that they have given up on

or, that the church had given up on them...

ironically, how the church would explain away all the reasons we left, yet they can't (or won't) look into themselves to see that they are the cause of the problem.

more ironically, they'd say that we're not good Christians for leaving. we'll get caught up in the devils snare, we'll lose our blessings, we'll get this curse, or that curse for leaving. and here we are, that we're the most faithful and committed Christians that churches have dreamed of having!

[Tavita]

I was asked several weeks ago by a pastor whether I agreed that what is happening could be a 'move of God'. That is a pretty radical thought. Many leaders would think the opposite. Because anything that leads people out of "their church" can't be of God, can it? Hmmmm. All I know is this: The concept of going through a 'Wilderness' just before entering the 'Promised Land' is totally Scriptural. In fact, it is right through the Bible. Even Jesus went through such a wilderness time. But it is not possible to stay "alone" forever. Some day, if these people are going to be part of a new move of God's Spirit, they are going to have to come out of their wilderness and become part of the "BODY" that Jesus brings together - the 'new wineskin' that will come with this new move of God. Otherwise they could miss out. That is the great danger.


What are your thoughts on the idea that this could be a 'move of God', in preparation for 'something' ahead? The 'new wineskin'?

I personally think we are in preparation time. I believe God is going to bring about a new 'way' of 'doing church'. And He is the one doing it, no matter for what 'reason' we've left the church, or what reason we can't find one that fits anymore. He's the one who's put the burning desire within to 'search', and to want more. I hope and pray that I will be open to 'see' what He's doing and to move when He tells me to move.

[ZiSunka]

It's hard to be rejected and I suspect that's why more churches don't try to find out why people have left their congregations. They are afraid that a litany of wrongs will be trotted out and they will have their feelings hurt, or worse yet, that they will find they agree with the reasons and leave the church themselves.

Maybe we the unchurched have some responsibility to the churches we left, to not just slip out but to at least write a note thanking them for their fellowship and letting them know that we aren't rejecting them as people, or Christ as savior, or Christianity as a way of life, but that we have left (or are leaving) because we have some issues with the way the church is conducting itself (or that there is a person or persons with whom we have issues), and try to do the Biblical method of dispute resolution, by going to the pastor, the elders, and the body with our issues (in a loving way) before we just slip away. (Boy was that a run-on sentence! :D )

[Tavita]

It's hard to be rejected and I suspect that's why more churches don't try to find out why people have left their congregations. They are afraid that a litany of wrongs will be trotted out and they will have their feelings hurt, or worse yet, that they will find they agree with the reasons and leave the church themselves.

Maybe we the unchurched have some responsibility to the churches we left, to not just slip out but to at least write a note thanking them for their fellowship and letting them know that we aren't rejecting them as people, or Christ as savior, or Christianity as a way of life, but that we have left (or are leaving) because we have some issues with the way the church is conducting itself (or that there is a person or persons with whom we have issues), and try to do the Biblical method of dispute resolution, by going to the pastor, the elders, and the body with our issues (in a loving way) before we just slip away. (Boy was that a run-on sentence! :D )

That's a really good thought lambslove. I did this myself, when I left my church. It took a couple of months before I could write them telling them I wasn't leaving because of the people or for any wrong that anyone had done, but gave them the reasons for leaving that I could see at that time. I never heard a word from them, but that's no matter, I did my part. But it's not easy to do, and it took me those couple of months to get the courage up to do it.

[Bevlina]

The Churches don't seem to care if a member stops going to Church. And, that in itself is scary because it shows a lack of communication between leaders and members.
It's only when the numbers start to fall away dramatically that they start to wonder why.

[ZiSunka]

Pray for me as I get ready to write that note to my old church. I left because there was constant fighting between the people who wanted change and the people who didn't. Neither group gave a hoot for anyone else's wellbeing, they just wanted to exert power. It got so bad that the board threatened to fire the pastor for having a saturday night worship service. The fighting carried over into the mission trip and at that point, Joe had had enough and didn't want to go back. I did, but because we were engaged, I submitted to Joe's authority and didn't go either. After a while, I stopped wanting to go because I really understood Joe's point of view.

Now we are no longer engaged and I have moved away, and although I would like to go back, I wouldn't feel comfortable because I know they have been gossiping about us, and I now live 250 miles away from that church so it is impractical for me to even try.

[Bevlina]

You have my prayers lamb. :prayer:
It is very sad to see bickering in any church as it reflects on the congregation. And, gossiping is not very nice for any Christian to do. But, we are all guilty of sin, sometimes we don't even know we sin!
I believe it is well to bring this action of bickering in a church to any Pastor's attention.

[loribee59]

The Churches don't seem to care if a member stops going to Church. And, that in itself is scary because it shows a lack of communication between leaders and members.
It's only when the numbers start to fall away dramatically that they start to wonder why.

In the space of 6 months, my old church lost about 15 members, including me. Not once did they try to find out why. I did recieve a note to invite me back, but it was far too long in time, and too uncomfortable to even try going back. My friend, wrote a really nice diplomatic note to explain her reason why she left, and I don't think she ever placed the blame on the pastors.

Sometimes a note is the way to go, sometimes, slipping away is another. It all really depends on how the person feels about the issues within the church.

[ZiSunka]

I think that letting a church know why you are leaving is a very loving thing to do, as long as we are kind in our motives and words. Slipping away is an un-courageous way to leave, and shows a lack of love for the people being left. You'd never do that to your family, would you?

[Bevlina]

Absolutely not! I believe the Pastor should be aware of what has caused one of his flock to leave the church. This is a help to the Pastor who can often contact the member and talk the issues over with them in a quiet friendly manner.

[loribee59]

Absolutely not! I believe the Pastor should be aware of what has caused one of his flock to leave the church. This is a help to the Pastor who can often contact the member and talk the issues over with them in a quiet friendly manner.

what if you can't? if the pastor takes on an attitude of "you're wrong" and scolds you for even questioning certain issues? that's intimidating!

this is why I left quietly, as I didn't have the courage to stand up to them at the time. :(

[Bevlina]

what if you can't? if the pastor takes on an attitude of "you're wrong" and scolds you for even questioning certain issues? that's intimidating!

this is why I left quietly, as I didn't have the courage to stand up to them at the time. :(

If the pastor has an attitude like that, then, IMO he should not be a pastor. But, I would never go to any pastor. I find it easy to talk to a Priest. They seem more advised on so many matters of discretion. And, all I have known have been perfect gentlemen.
I will talk to a Priest about anything. I think it may be that they hear so many confessions that they are able to understand so much. I can't seem to be able to talk to a Nun the same way I can to a Priest.
I always find I can chat and laugh with a Priest too! The minute they come intop your home they are relaxed and friendly. But, from my experience with pastors of various religions, no, I cannot speak to them.
I tried the A.O.G. and the Apostolic and was a bit surprised by their pastors.
Nope ... I'd just leave quietly, and send a note stating I wouldn't be along anymore and give the reason why.
Not that I ever did that though!

[loribee59]

:idea: brainstorm: dunno if this will work, but I find that someone is better with words than I am, if I draft a note and let people here in this forum give constructive critique....? Or is this more of an individual matter that should be between the pastor and ex-member?

[Bevlina]

It's an individual matter between pastor and member I reckon.

[ZiSunka]

I think it's fine to have someone help you, and you can PM someone the draft for critique. I think it's a very loving thing to do--to get help writing the letter so it is worded well and shines the love of Christ on it. :)

[Iron Lion]

The Churches don't seem to care if a member stops going to Church. And, that in itself is scary because it shows a lack of communication between leaders and members.
It's only when the numbers start to fall away dramatically that they start to wonder why.


the reason is because so many Churches are being run as buisness primarily and a church secondry. Its only when weekly takings are down they start to wonder.

Not to far from now i can see massive corperations owning thousands of churches and running them only to make money. Im sure this is already happening its only goin to get worse.

[Jenna]

I really found that article interesting. Thank you for posting it. :)

I much prefer the term "out of Church", as opposed to unchurched. It bothers me when people act as though Christians who do not hold a membership at a particular church are somehow not part of the Body. We are all still part of THE CHURCH, whether we meet weekly with the same group of people or not.

I currently am not attending regularly at the church where I technically hold membership. I have found that as I have progressed to more "meat" issues, the church is still feeding "milk" to the newcomers....constantly. Their main purpose is not to "grow the Church", only to grow THEIR church. I just can't stand snobbery when they are targetting others who are their brothers and sisters in Christ.

So, until I find a place where I really feel fed, I feel as though I am in some "in between place". I would love to go to a house church, but there aren't any in my area.

[Tavita]

I was asked several weeks ago by a pastor whether I agreed that what is happening could be a 'move of God'. That is a pretty radical thought. Many leaders would think the opposite. Because anything that leads people out of "their church" can't be of God, can it? Hmmmm. All I know is this: The concept of going through a 'Wilderness' just before entering the 'Promised Land' is totally Scriptural. In fact, it is right through the Bible. Even Jesus went through such a wilderness time. But it is not possible to stay "alone" forever. Some day, if these people are going to be part of a new move of God's Spirit, they are going to have to come out of their wilderness and become part of the "BODY" that Jesus brings together - the 'new wineskin' that will come with this new move of God. Otherwise they could miss out. That is the great danger.
What are your thoughts on the idea that this could be a 'move of God'? And that we are being prepared for 'something' in the future. By move of God, I mean that He is deliberately calling people out of the organised church (whether we know that call within us or not) into something else, and in the meantime He has us in a wilderness place in preparation.

[Bevlina]

I have often wondered the same Tav's.

[Rafael]

What are your thoughts on the idea that this could be a 'move of God'? And that we are being prepared for 'something' in the future. By move of God, I mean that He is deliberately calling people out of the organised church (whether we know that call within us or not) into something else, and in the meantime He has us in a wilderness place in preparation.
God would call people out because there is so much false doctrine in the Churches led by the pastors who would feed on the flock, written of in scripture. Also, because of so much inaction and temptation of comfort and security when the times are upon us to act and work while there is light to see. When I watch TBN and some of the teachings there I have to cringe at the reproach brought upon the name of the Lord worldwide. Surely at time has come to be called out to the narrow path, as the Word has gotten to the whole world by now along with the corrupted words of false prophets.

Eze 34:10 So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will require My flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock. Nor shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver My flock from their mouth, and they will not be food to devour.

[Tavita]

God would call people out because there is so much false doctrine in the Churches led by the pastors who would feed on the flock, written of in scripture. Also, because of so much inaction and temptation of comfort and security when the times are upon us to act and work while there is light to see. When I watch TBN and some of the teachings there I have to cringe at the reproach brought upon the name of the Lord worldwide. Surely at time has come to be called out to the narrow path, as the Word has gotten to the whole world by now along with the corrupted words of false prophets.

Eze 34:10 So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will require My flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock. Nor shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver My flock from their mouth, and they will not be food to devour.


Of course! I'd forgotten chapter 34 in Ezekiel. This whole chapter is an indictment against the false shepherds of the last days, and how God will take over from them.

V 12: "As a shepherd cares for his herd in the day when he is among his scattered sheep, so I will care for My sheep and will deliver them from all the places to which they were scattered on a cloudy and gloomy day.

V 15-16 "I will feed My flock and I will lead them to rest," declares the Lord God. I will seek the lost, bring back the scattered, bind up the broken, and strengthen the sick; but the fat and the strong I will destroy. I will feed them with judgement."

I'd encourage you to read all of chapter 34. God says, HE will do it. He will shepherd us Himself, He will deliver His flock Himself.

[Bevlina]

I'd forgotten it too! Must go and read it A.S.A.P.

[Bevlina]

God would call people out because there is so much false doctrine in the Churches led by the pastors who would feed on the flock, written of in scripture. Also, because of so much inaction and temptation of comfort and security when the times are upon us to act and work while there is light to see. When I watch TBN and some of the teachings there I have to cringe at the reproach brought upon the name of the Lord worldwide. Surely at time has come to be called out to the narrow path, as the Word has gotten to the whole world by now along with the corrupted words of false prophets.

Eze 34:10 So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will require My flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock. Nor shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver My flock from their mouth, and they will not be food to devour.

So, you cringe too Raphe? Oh boy ... I never thought I'd live to see the day ...
Don't believe I could ever watch TBN. It's bad enough on some TV Shows.

[Rafael]

So, you cringe too Raphe? Oh boy ... I never thought I'd live to see the day ...
Don't believe I could ever watch TBN. It's bad enough on some TV Shows.I flip by every once in a while, and there are a few good things on, but the majority presents the Lord as something other's would hate or bring reproach - fancy clothes, jewelry, and Victorian decor - where did that come from? Or the making merchandise of the flock and provoking them to greed and envy which has to be one of the worst things to ever happen, being warned of in 2 Peter chapter 2. Judgment within the Church is scriptural, while judging those outside is not, but more and more, people having a form of religion will demand to not hear the truth of God's word within the so called Church, and sound doctrine will not be tolerated. People will demand their prophets tell them of smooth things. All we can do with TV evangelism we do not support is change the channel and pray, as from such we told by scripture to turn away.

2 Tim. 4:3 For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to right teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever they want to hear.
4 They will reject the truth and follow strange myths.
5 But you should keep a clear mind in every situation. Don’t be afraid of suffering for the Lord. Work at bringing others to Christ. Complete the ministry God has given you.

Isa 30:10 They tell the prophets, "Shut up! We don’t want any more of your reports." They say, "Don’t tell us the truth. Tell us nice things. Tell us lies.

1Cor. 5:12 (NRSV) For what have I to do with judging those outside? Is it not those who are inside that you are to judge?
13 God will judge those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you."

1 Cor. 5:12 (NLT) It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways.
13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you."

1 Cor. (NASB) 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

2Peter 2:1 ¶ But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach their destructive heresies about God and even turn against their Master who bought them. Theirs will be a swift and terrible end.
2 Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of them, Christ and his true way will be slandered.
3 ¶ In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction is on the way.
(vs 2, 3 KJV: And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 ¶ And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.)

2 Tim. 3:1 ¶ 4 They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God.
5 They will act as if they are religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. You must stay away from people like that.
(vs 5 KJV: "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away".)

[Plan 9]

I flip by everyonce in a while, and there are a few good things on, but the majority presents the Lord as something other's would hate - fancy clothes and Victorian decor - where did that come from? Making merchandise of the flock and provoking them to greed and envy has to be one of the worst things to ever happen, and warned of in 2Peter chapter 2. I feel uncomfortable judging, but the Church is where judgment is to be done. I our cases, how do we "remove the evil" other than by changing channels?


Change that one part to "cheesy pseudo-Victorian decor" and you'll have my complete agreement, Raphe. ;)

[Living Stone]

out of church christians ?

Isnt that like an oxymoron, or something?

Christians by definition ARE the church.
Be they thousands or just a couple.

''where 2 or 3 are gathered in My name, there I am among them"

[Tavita]

Yes, but you ought to know what's meant. It means christians not involved with organisations who have buildings called 'the church'. Out of church christians are very much aware that THEY are the church, the Body of Christ, more so than some of those in the church building.

[Living Stone]

Yes, but you ought to know what's meant. It means christians not involved with organisations who have buildings called 'the church'. Out of church christians are very much aware that THEY are the church, the Body of Christ, more so than some of those in the church building.
I see :)

[Mustaphile]

As a person who likes to think for themselves, I find that certain dialogues are simply not allowed within many churches. Whether I am right or wrong about what I am thinking, it is a necessary part of my growth as a christian to be able to make my own mistakes and learn from them. When I am molly coddled by the church and in sense surrounded by cotton wool and padding, and people ready to catch me at every side if it appears I may be losing my balance, I don't have that opportunity to fall over, hurt myself and then contemplate my error. It's a reality of life that this is an effective and convincing way of learning, the school of 'hard knocks' we call tend to call it. If the christian walk can be compared to a baby drinking milk and then growing to eat meat, I think it can also be compared to the process of growth from childhood to adulthood. At some stage we have to let people go about life in the way they feel led and let them make their own mistakes. In doing so, we allow them to develop an inner conviction about their faith which is fortified by personal experience. The other side of the coin is that where this faith walk leads them my have little resemblance to the churches 'model christian' conception. I am of the firm conviction that 'right belief', as in an assent to a particular set of doctrinal stances is not what leads us through a process of being reborn in the spirit and being transformed by the spirit.

Alluded to throughout the Bible is a process of coming out of captivity, and undertaking a journey, in faith, to a 'promised land'. Along this journey we have trials and tribulations. We make mistakes and have successes, and we are both chastised and blessed by God along the way. In some ways, settling down to a set of 'right beliefs' is like walking out of Babylon, or walking out of Egypt and then pitching camp and saying, "We made it". I would think the reality is that we have a long journey ahead of us at this stage, and it will be an eventful journey in which we learn what it means to have faith, be faithful to God, and see our journey through the eyes of faith. It does seem to me to be about developing faith in God, rather than 'right belief' in a set of doctrines.

[Tavita]

Alluded to throughout the Bible is a process of coming out of captivity, and undertaking a journey, in faith, to a 'promised land'. Along this journey we have trials and tribulations. We make mistakes and have successes, and we are both chastised and blessed by God along the way. In some ways, settling down to a set of 'right beliefs' is like walking out of Babylon, or walking out of Egypt and then pitching camp and saying, "We made it". I would think the reality is that we have a long journey ahead of us at this stage, and it will be an eventful journey in which we learn what it means to have faith, be faithful to God, and see our journey through the eyes of faith. It does seem to me to be about developing faith in God, rather than 'right belief' in a set of doctrines.

As usual Mustaphile, your posts hit the nail right on the head. You can articulate so well.

After leaving the church organisation two years ago, I've been on journey's I would never have undertaken had I still been in there. In fact, some in the organisation I left thought I'd gone right off the rails. And I found that to say 'God LED me to that place and out again' is like talking heresy, and I must be careful who I say it to. However, I learned so much about God and His ways in those journey's that I would never have learned any other way. And I mean it, no other way. In the journey's He has cemented His truth to my soul and He Himself becomes more real to me in each new journey I undertake. And yes, I agree, who wants to pitch camp here? There's too much more to experience and move out into.

[Bevlina]

And, as usual, Must's posts always make me stop and think.

I believe I am where God wants me to be. My life is in His Hands and due to that, I have no fear.

[loribee59]

I am of the firm conviction that 'right belief', as in an assent to a particular set of doctrinal stances is not what leads us through a process of being reborn in the spirit and being transformed by the spirit.



:thumbsup: Excellent post!

I've always thought that the churches have their own ulterior motives for creating doctrines to keep people inside, to prevent them from truly learning about God on their own and outside the "building". How can we learn about God, when they're doing all the "thinking" for us? That's dangerous and false. Kinda ironic that people INSIDE the church would say about those who left the church.

Tavita says it best:

However, I learned so much about God and His ways in those journey's that I would never have learned any other way.

The people INSIDE the church will be looking OUT and wondering why they aren't experiencing the relationship with God as those who are "outside". I just hope they will wake up, and soon...

[techjedi]

Yes, but you ought to know what's meant. It means christians not involved with organisations who have buildings called 'the church'. Out of church christians are very much aware that THEY are the church, the Body of Christ, more so than some of those in the church building.

I think a good term would be "Removed from Religion" Christians... since a lot of ceremony, tradition, doctrine, etc tends to be wrapped up in the organized Christian religions/denominations.

I personally would like to be able to wrestle the term church back from organized religious groups and put it back in its proper context, but sadly that won't happen. So I've come to be comfortable with the term, Christian community... it gets back to the real meaning. Unfortunately, I too am journeying to find a community, the ones I've been to so far do not have each individual's best interests at heart - their way or the wrong way.

I found this article a while back, intrigued me because I've often felt the same frustration, but never have been confronted in person about it.

http://www.ginkworld.net/yourvoice/straighttalk/archive_2004_art/art_03012002.htm

Enjoy :wave:

[9-iron]

I have heard this movement described as the 'falling away' foretold by the Apostle Paul. I considered this for some time. What would we be falling away from? The church is obviously full of corruption, deceit and all kinds of messed up theology. So I consider this point mute and invalid.

You must still remember your brother and sisters who altogther make up the true church the Body of Christ. I can see how the enemy could use this to cause even further division in the Body. I once in left a church because I thought I was holier, had a greater depth of wisdom, more spiritual, etc., etc. than those in that church. All I did was drive a wedge in the Body of Christ. Luckily, most have extended forgiveness and I live in peace with these people. Still don't agree with them on theology and how they operate the church, but we can bless each other, pray for each other and live in peace.

Just some food for thought!

[Tavita]

I have heard this movement described as the 'falling away' foretold by the Apostle Paul. I considered this for some time. What would we be falling away from? The church is obviously full of corruption, deceit and all kinds of messed up theology. So I consider this point mute and invalid.

You must still remember your brother and sisters who altogther make up the true church the Body of Christ. I can see how the enemy could use this to cause even further division in the Body. I once in left a church because I thought I was holier, had a greater depth of wisdom, more spiritual, etc., etc. than those in that church. All I did was drive a wedge in the Body of Christ. Luckily, most have extended forgiveness and I live in peace with these people. Still don't agree with them on theology and how they operate the church, but we can bless each other, pray for each other and live in peace.

Just some food for thought!

I don't know if you read the article in the OP, but to most of us who have left the organisation called the church, we left because we see the organised church falling into apostasy. The word apostasy means a falling away from the truth. I don't believe we're leaving because we think we're holier than thou, or have problems with 'people', we're leaving because we are so vexed and grieved at the lack of love, false teachings and false prophets so prevalent.... the falling away from truth. I'm sure most of us pray for the church and the people in the organised church. There are some in here who do want to be part of a church organisation but for varying reasons can't find one they feel comfortable in. Some have left through abuse and control, is it always the fault of the victim? Does anyone in the church ever put a check on the church itself and hold it accountable?

There will be division in the church. There will be a Bride spotless and pure waiting for the Bridegroom, the true church, and there will be the false church of the False Prophet. Maybe those times are fast approaching. And I also realise the true church is within the organised church at present. A time is coming when she'll have to leave.

Whether those in the organised church like it or not, God Himself has actually called most of us out. And I am aware of the verses that get thrown in our faces, you know the ones about not forsaking the meeting together of the brethren etc etc. But, you know, we are quite capable of meeting other believers and having a meeting, outside the structure of the organised church.
But as you said, we need to love each other, whether you're in it or out of it.

[9-iron]

but to most of us who have left the organisation called the church, we left because we see the organised church falling into apostasy.



I mentioned the church full of corruption and such, but I have a hard time calling it to be in full apostasy. Of the millions in church only a small % are accountable for the current state. Most people are just doing and going about their spiritual affairs in the manner and tradition they were raised. I consider them to be innocent of apostate. In fact, perhaps those are the people who need to see the truth.

I totally understand your views. My concern is that those still in the church understanding where you are coming from when you call the church 'apostate'. That thought is something most Christians can't comprehend and will tune you out.

Perhaps I did 'read into' some of the post. I just think this is a sensitive thing happening in the Body of Christ. Sorry to intrude upon the thread. I had a misfire in my original post and I not know for having the greatest communication skills in the world.

[Tavita]

I mentioned the church full of corruption and such, but I have a hard time calling it to be in full apostasy. Of the millions in church only a small % are accountable for the current state. Most people are just doing and going about their spiritual affairs in the manner and tradition they were raised. I consider them to be innocent of apostate. In fact, perhaps those are the people who need to see the truth.

I totally understand your views. My concern is that those still in the church understanding where you are coming from when you call the church 'apostate'. That thought is something most Christians can't comprehend and will tune you out.

Perhaps I did 'read into' some of the post. I just think this is a sensitive thing happening in the Body of Christ. Sorry to intrude upon the thread. I had a misfire in my original post and I not know for having the greatest communication skills in the world.

It's ok, you're quite welcome into the thread, and I agree it is a VERY sensitive issue in the Body right now. My communication skills aren't the best either. So, I guess we need a whole lot of understanding all round. I may have come on too strong in denouncing the church to be FULL of apostasy, but she's well on the way to it. And those who are still in and would be offended at that line of thought.... maybe we need a shake up? Maybe we need to wake up and see what's going on? I hope and pray for my brothers and sisters in the organised church to wake up and see what's going on... to see how very subtely things are changing right under their noses ...and they're not aware of it.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts, and I know it seems worrisome that things are moving the way they are. But I know our God's a big God and He's in charge, and He's doing the shaking and the moving as He said He would.

[New_Wineskin]

I mentioned the church full of corruption and such, but I have a hard time calling it to be in full apostasy. Of the millions in church only a small % are accountable for the current state. Most people are just doing and going about their spiritual affairs in the manner and tradition they were raised. I consider them to be innocent of apostate. In fact, perhaps those are the people who need to see the truth.

Taking apostacy out of the equation ... isn't the manner and tradition in which they were raised to check things out to make sure they are correct in the first place ? I hear a lot of Christians saying "search the Scriptures" but they still mouth the same things over and over that were taught to them . So , I wonder whether they are actually "innocent" . They claim to search the Scriptures but show that they don't . Now , I don't advocate the need to search the Scriptures . But , if someone is continually saying that they do and commanding everyone else to do so while not doing so to the very basics of what they claim to believe , they are claiming to see the light and so could be declared to be guilty by their own declarations .

Still , I understand why they don't check out the basics . Once someone becomes spiritually mature to the point of being able to check things out for themselves , they take for granted what was taught to them when they first believed . It is like being told that the earth is flat all of their lives and having all of their subsequent understandings based on that . While now checking things out from those initial understandings and capable of doing that , it is most difficult to think outside of the box and actually question what they consider the very foundational beliefs themselves .

Ah , religion ...

[merechristian]

maybe the great theologian dietrich bonhoeffer was prophetic,before he was executed by the nazis he wrote a number of letters that are now a book(letters from prison).he said the wave of the future for christians was what he called religionless christianity,it would be based upon radical discipleship to THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT.from the posts and info i,ve read here maybe he was correct,i hope so! go well,gael

[Bevlina]

Ah, Bonhoeffer. The man who led Operation 7 and led a small group of Jews into Switzerland. Yes, he was a man who was dedicated to God. I believe he prayed before his death quite a few times, then, when stripped naked just prior to being hanged, he knelt down and prayed. 5 minutes later, he was dead. I think my memory serves me right.

Real grace, in Bonhoeffer's estimation, is a grace that will cost a man his life. It is the grace made dear by the life of Christ that was sacrificed to purchase man's redemption. Cheap grace arose out of man's desire to be saved, but to do so without becoming a disciple. The true believer, according to Bonhoeffer, must resist cheap grace and enter the life of active discipleship.
There are many today who enter the life of true discipleship, but there are just as many who don't.
I believe God uses each one of us in a different manner, and each way is to edify the Body of Christ.

[dicentra spectabilis]

I haven't been to a church service in a few years, other than weddings, baptisms, and funerals, and most of those were Catholic, which I am not. Like it mentioned in the article, I just got so frustrated and discouraged by some of the things that were going on. I went to church for fellowship and spiritual uplifting, and often received instead political diatribes from the pulpit. There was a lot of infighting, one group trying to oust the current minister, while the other group was defending him, etc...
Hypaethral, I think, is the best word I've heard to describe my current worship preference. I have my best time communing with God in places like where I took the picture for my profile. I do miss the companionship and support of fellow Christians though. That's part of the reason I was so excited to find this place. I look forward to spending time here, although it can't replace the real world interaction that I am missing. I'd still love to find a Bible study that meets my needs locally, but this will do for now, and will make a wonderful supplement even after I find what I'm looking for.

[watchman7]

The true Church which is the body of Christ is not real estate. Where ever two or more are gathered in His name...... I say to those who are totally commited to Christ, let's take the next step. The reality is that there many of us outside local assemblies for one reason or another. An assembly is a gathering of Christians. This forum is or can be an assembly. What do you think?
Lord Jesus, let your will be done in all your Church. Lead us as you will according to your plan from the foundation of the world.

[StarSapphire]

Our church has a revolving door, they lose as many new people that come into it. I don't think our church is feeding the congregation the way they should. There seems no motivation to go, other than through force of habit. The sermons are empty, and the rock 'n roll music leaves one feeling all the more empty at the end. I am looking for a new church too. :(

[GraceMan]

The Churches don't seem to care if a member stops going to Church. And, that in itself is scary because it shows a lack of communication between leaders and members.
It's only when the numbers start to fall away dramatically that they start to wonder why.

Yeah, when I took my family and left an Assemblies of God church, we didn't get one call. No communication at all and we were a family of six!

:confused:

G-Man

[Sally Wren]

TThe true Church which is the body of Christ is not real estate. Where ever two or more are gathered in His name...... I say to those who are totally commited to Christ, let's take the next step. The reality is that there many of us outside local assemblies for one reason or another. An assembly is a gathering of Christians. This forum is or can be an assembly. What do you think?
Lord Jesus, let your will be donTn of the world.

Is this a move of God? The answer is "yes" this is a move of God. Is what is happening to all these people coming out of the churches from God? Yes, it is. Is the falling away, churches falling away from truth? Yes, it is. Are the people that are called out of the churches in a wilderness? Yes, they are. Is all this planned by God? Yes, it is. Are many seeing it? No, they are not.

I don't know, Watchman, if true assembly can happen on a website like this ,that in my mind actually appears to be doing what the antichrist wants to do. The antichrist will want to unit all these churches we are being called out of together as one. So I don't know if we will be able to assemble on here or not. The Lord knows. I am meeting a lot of people like myself on here, that is all I know. Greetings to you all, nice to know you all. But, yes, I do think us real Christians can assemble on here and it does qualify as assembling.

I read people on here saying they have been out of the church for 2 years and 5 years. For me it has been 23 years. When the Lord showed me the condition of the church through the gift of discerning of spirits. And I am so thankful to see others finally seeing what I have seen for years. It is so encouraging and hopeful. For a long time things looked really bad, it didn't look like anyone was going to see what was happening. But I am so glad that it seem like not just a few but many are going to be awaken before His return. I guess my prayers have been answered.

There are a lot of people out there that call people like myself the falling away. They are not seeing the real falling away, the real falling away that Paul talked about was the one that would happen to the church. And, I believe, has happened already and is almost done. I believe that soon Jesus will be returning very shortly now. The situation in the world is very serious now. Most people are set in the delusion now very strongly. The false prophet will appear and it will look like it is all the Holy Spirit. Look at the events of the last few months. When Terry Schiavo was in the news, I think it was so hard on the pope it killed him. They are saying there is going to be a revival with an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. It will be nothing more than an outpouring of deception for the people set in their delusions now. Be thankful, though, this means that soon we will be with Jesus. The bible has told us that the days will be so deceptive that it would deceive the elect of God if possible and they are. Everything that the bible has foretold has happened. It also says that He will shorten the days for the sake of the elect.

We serve an awesome God.

Sally

[Bevlina]

I believe there is more a falling away from the churches for many reasons. Many feel it is a calling away. But maybe it's just a falling.

[Bevlina]

Yeah, when I took my family and left an Assemblies of God church, we didn't get one call. No communication at all and we were a family of six!

:confused:

G-Man
Exactly. This also happened to me. But I wouldn't go to an A.O.G. church now, I just don't believe in the "Prosperity Gospel" and I have never hidden that fact.

[Buttermilk]

It's hard to be rejected and I suspect that's why more churches don't try to find out why people have left their congregations. They are afraid that a litany of wrongs will be trotted out and they will have their feelings hurt, or worse yet, that they will find they agree with the reasons and leave the church themselves.

Maybe we the unchurched have some responsibility to the churches we left, to not just slip out but to at least write a note thanking them for their fellowship and letting them know that we aren't rejecting them as people, or Christ as savior, or Christianity as a way of life, but that we have left (or are leaving) because we have some issues with the way the church is conducting itself (or that there is a person or persons with whom we have issues), and try to do the Biblical method of dispute resolution, by going to the pastor, the elders, and the body with our issues (in a loving way) before we just slip away. (Boy was that a run-on sentence! :D )

Run on but well stated. :thumbsup:

I am in that very position just now and am pondering over just what to say in a letter.

[New_Wineskin]

I see no automatic responsibility to contact them at all . First of all , the idea of group membership or committment is an incorrect idea in and of itself . We then have the idea that , if they felt the same responsibility towards their group , *they* would come to you . *They* would notice that you are not *there* and contact you . If they don't contact you , they show a complete lack of interest .

My best friends attempted to fulfill this "responsibility" . It blew up in their face . People considered that they were attempting to break the group apart .

[newday]

I also believe that God is going to bring about a "new way of doing church."
I have a strong belief that Jeus will be returning soon and before His arrival things are going to change dramatically. Maybe going to church the way we "use to" will change.
I don't know but obviously something is happening that we cannot deny.
Because of the Cross,
Newday

[discernomatic]

I agree with the article, that those that are leaving churches are tired of the church game, and I do find that the ones that leave are generally mature Christians deeply rooted in faith. But to say that it is an entirely new phenomenon may not be correct.

I think that in every generation people have always left established churches, but that today it is easier to follow this because information exchange has become easy and instant. Because of this as well, it is easier to get new ideas for church programs, church trends are as hot these days as music or fashion trends are. But are church trends what we want in a society riddled with change? A call to the basics of the Christian faith seems to be more and more appealing to many, causing them to leave trendy churches. If this is done with thought and prayer I think that it cannot be wrong.

It is already noticeable, however, that a trend towards fundamentalism, the kind that ignores logic and common sense in favor of blind belief and dogma, the kind that may be too radical, is also underway and that its influence in politics is already evident. That may be another reason why some that truly love Jesus Christ and want to follow his ways rather than someone else's political agenda, are leaving the churches.

[discernomatic]

I believe there is more a falling away from the churches for many reasons. Many feel it is a calling away. But maybe it's just a falling.
Oh, I wouldn't put it that way. It depends on how you are living outside of church society. If you pray regularly and learn from the bible, grow and witness, what could you be doing wrong? If you also meet with other Christians, even just one or two when you have the opportunity, then you are not giving up meeting with others as we were exhorted to do. Everything should be fine. :)

[Bevlina]

I meet with other Christians, BUT! And I stress this, they have to be totally honest Christians. I Don't mix with anyone unforgiving or hurtful. Been there, done that. OVER!

[Mea Culpa]

Great post!
I AM one of those!

[discernomatic]

I meet with other Christians, BUT! And I stress this, they have to be totally honest Christians. I Don't mix with anyone unforgiving or hurtful. Been there, done that. OVER!
Yeah, I can empathize with that one. :thumbsup:

[Behe's Boy]

The biggest reform that the church in America (and probably other western nations as well) needs is in the area of money!

I have seen over and over again an improper importance placed on the tithe. Look at most protestant churches in America in this day and age and you will see that a requirement for membership is to tithe. This is wrong and it is unscriptural. Show me where this is a requirement for membership in the New Testament church?

I read recently that most members of churches give 3% of their earnings on average to their home churches - so we have another problem now as well - hypocracy. The churches which require the tithe for membership are putting their members in a position to either be hypocritical or to not be members but "attenders." I believe this is wrong.

I do believe that we as Chrisitians should give to our churches and support them financially - but that it should not be bound by a percentage of earnings. It should be bound only by conscious, faith and willingness.

I may be off base but I believe this is the number one reason why our churches are shrinking at such a rapid rate. It's a form of modern day "indulgences" that is sickening.

[New_Wineskin]

The biggest reform that the church in America (and probably other western nations as well) needs is in the area of money!


I would agree that is *one* of the major issues with many groups .



I have seen over and over again an improper importance placed on the tithe. Look at most protestant churches in America in this day and age and you will see that a requirement for membership is to tithe. This is wrong and it is unscriptural. Show me where this is a requirement for membership in the New Testament church?


Membership/committment/covenant is a pet peeve with myself , as well . People will quote a passage from the letter called "Hebrews" to indicate a law to "not forsake the assembling" . Yet , the idea of membership does exactly that . They forsake the assembling with others by forcing the assembling with the same people . Of course , on of the reasons that they have the membership is to attempt to keep a certain number of people and their money in that location . ... back to money .


I read recently that most members of churches give 3% of their earnings on average to their home churches - so we have another problem now as well - hypocracy. The churches which require the tithe for membership are putting their members in a position to either be hypocritical or to not be members but "attenders." I believe this is wrong.


That may be one reason why , even though groups would have a "tithe" Law , they still have that as a central theme in their sermons .


I do believe that we as Chrisitians should give to our churches and support them financially - but that it should not be bound by a percentage of earnings. It should be bound only by conscious, faith and willingness.


I see nothing to support . For what do they *need* the money ? They don't . They "want" certain things that *need* money but they don't actually *need* the things that they "want" . Also , since we have already agreed on not needing membership , what would be "our" groups ?



I may be off base but I believe this is the number one reason why our churches are shrinking at such a rapid rate. It's a form of modern day "indulgences" that is sickening.

I consider that one reason is that people are more willing to ask and more capable of asking themselves , "Why am I doing this in this manner ?" and "Why am I doing this *at all* ?"

[lismore]

what if you can't? if the pastor takes on an attitude of "you're wrong" and scolds you for even questioning certain issues? that's intimidating!

this is why I left quietly, as I didn't have the courage to stand up to them at the time. :(

Hi loribee:wave:

Sometimes sending a note stirs up a hornets nest, especially if the pastor is quite insecure or immature.

One lady sent a note to our church (well the pentecostal church I have all but left) and gave her reasonable reasons for leaving.......well

she was denounced from the pulpit: the pastor said she was a fat n'er do well

she was the subject of prayer meetings 'dont give her peace until she repents of leaving this wonderful ministry'

I was in the worship team and one night in the practice the pastor came in and wanted to talk badly about the folks that had left and people that were there that didnt agree with him.. He was like a cornered, wounded bear- vicious.
scary:eek:

sometimes it is better to leave quietly rather than cause people to have bad feeling towards you:groupray:

[lismore]

. We are all still part of THE CHURCH, whether we meet weekly with the same group of people or not.



Amen Jenna

Nothing can throw us out of the Kingdom of God even though we choose to leave the petty Kingdom of man!:)

[rider2]

Thanks Tavita, for giving us Andrew Strom's expanation for the growing un-churched Christians around the world.
It's been noticed by many in my area of the USA. I'm one of them too. I have told my story here in another post, and found scores of others like myself.