What would you have us do?

[InnerPhyre]

I'm well aware of what the Orthodox Church would demand fromt he Catholic Church as far as belief goes before reunification could occur, but what as far as praxy would you expect us to change? Would you say that we could keep things like Eucharistic adoration, stations of the cross, ashes on ash wed, etc?

[Jason of Wyoming]

As far as I know (and I'm a newbie to Orthodoxy) you could probably keep the various Latin Church traditions, as long as you were doctrinally in line (Filioque, immaculate conception, papal infallability, etc.). You should probably talk to someone in the Western Rite Antiochian Orthodox to find out more.

[countrymousenc]

You might be able to find some answers at the Antiochian website, since they have some western rite parishes. http://www.antiochian.org/

It would really take a synod of Bishops to answer that question accurately. All we can really do is guess at it or give personal opinions.

May God bring it to pass! :)

[Rilian]

I think the issues go deeper than that IP. These seem to me to be mostly about piety. Eucharistic adoration, although not practiced in the East, was probably present before the schism and so I would have a hard time saying it could not be accepted.

The problems are really what I would call the biggies. The Filioque, Purgatory and the Immaculate Conception (at least as dogma) and Vatican I. Those would all have to go.

I also have a hard time picturing Palamism being accepted in the West given the influence of Aquinas, but maybe that’s not the case. The saints are another issue, could you accept St. Photios the Great as a saint? I know the East could not accept St. Josaphat as a saint.

I just don’t see these things ever changing. I can understand what the Ecumenical Patriarch is doing given the position of the Phanar in a hostile state with an overseas flock, but I think he’s on a fools errand, and he’s just eroding his place within Orthodoxy.

[InnerPhyre]

I think he’s on a fools errand, and he’s just eroding his place within Orthodoxy.


Thank God we are reliant upon His mercy and wisdom. We can do nothing on our own, but all things are possible with God :)

[Marjorie]

Well, the differences between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are not in a list of beliefs, really, but in a completely different approach to the world, to God. The only way, IMO, that the Orthodox and Catholic Churches could reunite could be if there were mass conversions from one side to the other. There can be Western Rite Orthodoxy but the fundamental way of viewing the world would be different than in Catholicism. I know that as my mind "converted" to Orthodoxy it had to do so gradually; it is strange for someone reared with a non-Orthodox phronema.

As for praxis, which is your real question, I suppose that is answered by the Western Rite-- you might want to ask a WR priest how close in praxis it is to Catholicism.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Oblio]

/me looks around for common ground ...

Get rid of the guitars

/me flees

[Marjorie]

* Oblio looks around for common ground ...


Get rid of the guitars

* Oblio flees

:D

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[InnerPhyre]

* Oblio looks around for common ground ...


Get rid of the guitars

* Oblio flees

You'll get no argument from me. When I see a guitar at mass, I want to take it outside and smash it in a fit of righteous outrage :)

[Matrona]

I think the issues go deeper than that IP. These seem to me to be mostly about piety. Eucharistic adoration, although not practiced in the East, was probably present before the schism and so I would have a hard time saying it could not be accepted.

Eucharistic adoration would not be accepted in Orthodoxy. Concluding that the Real Presence means the Eucharist is worthy to be worshipped, is not Orthodox.

Placing the bread IN the chalice is actually a relatively recent development, after the 9th century or so. We started doing this so that the faithful would not try to take home the Eucharist and pray to it.

[Rilian]

In all seriousness IP, I think you can imagine what that stuff looks like to us. I have heard of priests changing the doxology on their own, giving out communion to non Catholics and lots of other strange stuff. That kind of thing is not taken lightly in Orthodoxy.

[InnerPhyre]

In all seriousness IP, I think you can imagine what that stuff looks like to us. I have heard of priests changing the doxology on their own, giving out communion to non Catholics and lots of other strange stuff. That kind of thing is not taken lightly in Orthodoxy.


Well that's not taken lightly by Catholics either. Those are liturgical abuses that have sprung up in recent days as a result of liberalism creeping in. Fortunately the Vatican has been cracking down and saying its absoultely unacceptable.

[Rilian]

Well, I'll be honest with you IP, I know many Catholics and my feeling on this topic isn't good. They all, and I mean all, hold unorthodox beliefs (by Catholic standards) at varying levels. That doesn't give me a lot of hope that the tide will be turned. I'm not trying to be offensive, or say there aren't traditional Catholics out there, but my experience is they're a rare breed.

Anyhow, not to put you on the spot, but do you ever see things I mentioned before ever changing?

[Maximus]

Eucharistic adoration would not be accepted in Orthodoxy. Concluding that the Real Presence means the Eucharist is worthy to be worshipped, is not Orthodox.


No offense, Matrona, but you are mistaken.

The Eucharist has always been worshipped by Christians as Christ Himself.

That's in the Fathers, BTW.

The Latins are absolutely NOT doing anything wrong in adoring the Blessed Sacrament, in fact, just the opposite.

After the epiklesis, that is Jesus up there.

[Wiffey]

There is a wide range of opinion on what would be required. Honestly, I'm not sure what it would take. I think that, no matter WHAT the Vatican might be willing to do, there will be a contingent that will cry out for total capitulation. There are moderates and extremists on both sides of the aisle.

Basically, I think that if we earnestly keep working on it, then over time the mere idea of it won't send so many folks running for the hills. It will be a long process. But I think it CAN happen by the grace of God...

[mbkndomer]

There is an excellent book by AN Williams comparing Palamas to Aquinas called Ground of Union. There might be less to overcome there than you might expect.

[Iacobus]

Why do we obsess endlessly over this? Of course, there is Jesus' prayer for unity, but in this case the problem rests with our heirarchs. Is not striving for salvation enough of a task?

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Why do we obsess endlessly over this? Of course, there is Jesus' prayer for unity, but in this case the problem rests with our heirarchs. Is not striving for salvation enough of a task?
Amen!!!:)

[countrymousenc]

Why do we obsess endlessly over this? Of course, there is Jesus' prayer for unity, but in this case the problem rests with our heirarchs. Is not striving for salvation enough of a task?

Yes, except....

For salvation God's people need each other. That's why we are the Church, a community, a holy city, a family. And the Church is not just the heirarchs; it's all of us. When we receive the Eucharist we are each, among other things, proclaiming our unity with all the others who are receiving it with us.

And if we are the Church, then the rest of the world, including other Christians, needs us, and needs to be part of us, and we are responsible in whatever small things we can do, to help that happen, to pray, to love, to share the truth. Salvation is more than just conquering specific sins and learning to mind our own business and not judge others.

If you asked twenty good men today what they thought the highest of the virtues, nineteen of them would reply, Unselfishness. But if you asked almost any of the great Christians of old he would have replied, Love. ... The negative ideal of Unselfishness carries with it the suggestion not primarily of securing good things for others, but of going without them ourselves, as if our abstinence and not their happiness was the important point. I do not think this is the Christian virtue of Love. - C.S. Lewis, "The Weight of Glory"

[Rilian]

There is an excellent book by AN Williams comparing Palamas to Aquinas called Ground of Union. There might be less to overcome there than you might expect.

I'll have to take a look at that. I would be curious to find out if the author is himself a Catholic. I guess my pessimism is because I have seen recently elsewhere statements by Catholics that divine simplicity allows no distinctions between essence and energies. New Advent as well shows how this, at least in the past, was held in low regard.

but in this case the problem rests with our heirarchs.

Hmmm, I have to disagree with you somewhat on this. Certainly working out our salvation is important and ever time consuming, but we should also take in to account the life and health of the church. Florence failed not because of the hierarchs, but in spite of them. I think many of the problems created for Orthodoxy in the 20th century were created because the hierarchs acted without regard to what the people in the rank and file thought or wanted.

[Moros]

I'd have you get over it because it's not going to happen any time soon.

[Eusebios]

[mod hat on] Please, let us retain decorum here.[/hat]

[NewToLife]

A start would be for Catholicism to learn to respect us for what we are rather than what you'd like us to be, until your side can do that what is the point of tilting at windmills.

As an example of the stuff you are going to need to move beyond I present this thread;

http://www.christianforums.com/t1232700-real-cause-of-great-schism.html

[Rising_Suns]

A start would be for Catholicism to learn to respect us for what we are rather than what you'd like us to be, until your side can do that what is the point of tilting at windmills.

As an example of the stuff you are going to need to move beyond I present this thread;

http://www.christianforums.com/t1232700-real-cause-of-great-schism.html[



Just a point of clarification, the Church does respect the Orthodox *very* much. If you have read related sections of the Catechism, or various encyclicals by our Holy Father, you will see just how much the Church honors our Orthodox brethren and how much she reaches out to them in love.

Unfortunately, not all Catholics follow the Church's lead and are still stuck in the same elitist mentality that some Orthodox are stuck in, but keep in mind their comments/views in no way reflect the disposition of the Church.

[NewToLife]

Just a point of clarification, the Church does respect the Orthodox *very* much. If you have read related sections of the Catechism, or various encyclicals by our Holy Father, you will see just how much the Church honors our Orthodox brethren and how much she reaches out to them in love.

Unfortunately, not all Catholics follow the Church's lead and are still stuck in the same elitist mentality that some Orthodox are stuck in, but keep in mind their comments/views in no way reflect the disposition of the Church.

RisingSuns, I actually do accept what you say and to be honest wish that these kinds of discussions would remain at the level of our respective hierarchs where in my opinion they would be far more profitable in improving our relationship with one another. Some things ought to be left to our leaders and this in my opinion is for now at least one of them.

[Rilian]

A start would be for Catholicism to learn to respect us for what we are rather than what you'd like us to be, until your side can do that what is the point of tilting at windmills.

As an example of the stuff you are going to need to move beyond I present this thread;

http://www.christianforums.com/t1232700-real-cause-of-great-schism.html

That thread I believe sums up the hopelessness of reunion. We believe there are substantive differences, but they do not see it that way. They see it as an issue of semantics, we believe the same things as them, we just don’t know it or want to admit it. So either we drop our doctrinal façade and admit we’ve been fools for 1,000 years, or they admit there are real differences and that they are going to have to accept giving these up.

Either way, you’re not talking reunion. You’re talking wholesale conversion.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I'm well aware of what the Orthodox Church would demand fromt he Catholic Church as far as belief goes before reunification could occur, but what as far as praxy would you expect us to change? Would you say that we could keep things like Eucharistic adoration, stations of the cross, ashes on ash wed, etc?

IP, I am not sure what a Roman Rite within Orthodoxy would look like. Yes there are Western Rite Antiochians, but I think if Rome were to mass convert to Orthodoxy it would take many years for the Rite to become fully Orthodox. Embracing Orthodoxy for me was a very long process that has lasted years after my Chrismation. Embracing Orthodoxy involves taking on an Orthodox mindset and learning to live an Orthodox life. It is and should be a total change in your life. I will leave the comments on the particulars to the others who are probably more well versed on this matter, but I wanted to add my view for what it is worth.

[OrthodoxyUSA]

It's simple really isn't it?

Give up Papal supremacy, sit down to a council as equals and abide by the decisions of the council as a whole...

Now, that having been said.... The Bishop of Rome would only be one out of many, and the other Bishops would be Orthodox....

Therefore Rome would have to concede to the decrees of an Orthodox council....

I don't see it happening.... mostly because I believe that the secular political powers that be in the RCC would not allow the Pope to do so.... In other words if the Pope were to make the move they would not follow and many MANY would revolt.

Forgive me....

[Rick of Wessex]

Rilian,

That thread I believe sums up the hopelessness of reunion. We believe there are substantive differences, but they do not see it that way. They see it as an issue of semantics, we believe the same things as them, we just don’t know it or want to admit it. So either we drop our doctrinal façade and admit we’ve been fools for 1,000 years, or they admit there are real differences and that they are going to have to accept giving these up.

Either way, you’re not talking reunion. You’re talking wholesale conversion.

I'd rep you if I could...

...especially after reading a comparision between Purgatory and how we view Particular Judgement (which is not a "state" by any chance and is clearly mentioned by St. Paul in I Corinthians 3:9-15).

Rick

[Rising_Suns]

That thread I believe sums up the hopelessness of reunion. We believe there are substantive differences, but they do not see it that way. They see it as an issue of semantics, we believe the same things as them, we just don’t know it or want to admit it. So either we drop our doctrinal façade and admit we’ve been fools for 1,000 years, or they admit there are real differences and that they are going to have to accept giving these up.

Either way, you’re not talking reunion. You’re talking wholesale conversion.

Ok, I think I see what the issue is. As you just stated, you believe that if you are too close to Catholicism, then you must as you put it, "drop the facade" and reunite. You are introducing this third variable into the equation of having to reunite if you are too close to Catholicism, which now makes it obvious that it is causing the Orthodox to distance themselves further from Catholicism (which makes sense; they don't want to renounce their faith)

But I simply do not understand this introdcution of the third variable. I don't understand how being similar must automatically equate to the demise of Orthodoxy. Why is there so much unrest about this? Being similar does not mean equal, nor does it mean exactly alike, nor does it mean one Church must renounce itself, nor does it mean anything of the sort. Being similar is just being similar; no third variable involved here.

[Iacobus]

Ok, I think I see what the issue is. As you just stated, you believe that if you are too close to Catholicism, then you must as you put it, "drop the facade" and reunite. You are introducing this third variable into the equation of having to reunite if you are too close to Catholicism, which now makes it obvious that it is causing the Orthodox to distance themselves further from Catholicism (which makes sense; they don't want to renounce their faith)

But I simply do not understand this introdcution of the third variable. I don't understand how being similar must automatically equate to the demise of Orthodoxy. Why is there so much unrest about this? Being similar does not mean equal, nor does it mean exactly alike, nor does it mean one Church must renounce itself, nor does it mean anything of the sort. Being similar is just being similar; no third variable involved here.

I think you are misunderstanding Rillian's point.

[Maximus]

Ok, I think I see what the issue is. As you just stated, you believe that if you are too close to Catholicism, then you must as you put it, "drop the facade" and reunite. You are introducing this third variable into the equation of having to reunite if you are too close to Catholicism, which now makes it obvious that it is causing the Orthodox to distance themselves further from Catholicism (which makes sense; they don't want to renounce their faith)

But I simply do not understand this introdcution of the third variable. I don't understand how being similar must automatically equate to the demise of Orthodoxy. Why is there so much unrest about this? Being similar does not mean equal, nor does it mean exactly alike, nor does it mean one Church must renounce itself, nor does it mean anything of the sort. Being similar is just being similar; no third variable involved here.

We are growing less and less "similar" as time goes on.

And it isn't the Orthodox Church that has done the "distancing," either.

The pre-Vatican II Roman Church was a lot more like the Orthodox Church than is the modern Roman Church, but still there were substantive differences. The pre-Vatican I Roman Church was even more like the Orthodox Church, but again there were significant differences.

It seems to me that the Roman Church continues to move further and further away from the Orthodox Church while at the same time talking up "unity" and "dialogue."

Talk means little.

We're not headed in the same direction.

[NewToLife]

Either way, you’re not talking reunion. You’re talking wholesale conversion.

And that is exactly the point, catholicism doesnt appear to actually want discussions leading to union, what it appears to want is an opportunity to convert us on a wholesale basis, if we look at history we see that their aim has never altered in this respect only the means used. Union is no more possible now than it was in the time of St Mark of Ephesus, and the core reasons not only remain but have been aggravated by continuing doctrinal innovation in the west.

I mean if these overtures are not as I see them then exactly which doctrines are Catholics actually willing to countenance giving up? Personally i cannot see how a belief system that has as a cornerstone Papal infallibility ( and that of the Magisterium seems to be accepted as a working practice also ) can realistically countenance any changes to its thinking at all. Given that I can only assume that talks are intended to convince us to abandon Orthodoxy and convert.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Given that I can only assume that talks are intended to convince us to abandon Orthodoxy and convert.

I think that is the truth, although you will never hear Rome openly admit that. But that is why the Byzantine Catholic Church was formed by the Jesuits in the 16th or 17th C. It was not because the Jesuits were into Orthodox spirituality. It was because the Jesuits wanted to prepare the Orthodox Church for eventual assimilation into the Roman Catholic Church.

[Wiffey]

IMO, the two biggest obstacles (in the Orthodox view) to reunification are Vatican I and Vatican II.

Right now I'll keep my remarks to Vatican II.

There is alot of discussion at OBOB about what VII actually says as opposed to some of the liturgical abuses that have occurred due to liberal priests with an agenda taking liberties and saying that they are "in the spirit of" VII.

To Orthodox who have not studied the VII documents, you must understand that there is a basic assumption that VII gives a big OK to the aforementioned liturgical abuses. Additionally, many are frightened because they do not like what they see in the new mass, and anyone over a certain age has witness the vast amount of changes that have occurred since VII.

[America, IMO, has seen the greatest amount of change in Catholicism and Catholic culture since VII. Europe has retained far superior liturgical practices. Orthodox who live in the US, where many Catholic churches have been really stripped down to look more like protestant churches, are concerned.]

Orthodox love the Divine Liturgy. By definition we love Tradition. The thought that changes might be made or innovations introduced makes us very nervous.

I think that we relate better liturgically to the Tridentine Mass, despite our tendency to favor the vernacular.

I think that it is important (as a part of reaching out to the Orthodox) for the Vatican to really crack down on breaks in liturgical practice that overstep Vatican II.

[These are all just my personal opinions.]

It is a daunting task. But I still believe that if we truly allow ourselves all to be guided by the Holy Spirit and keep loving hearts and open minds, that it is still a possibility.

And I DO believe we need to work on it. Putting off dealing with the Schism because it is difficult and thankless work is no good. With each passing century we have more things to overcome. Reuniting would have been easier prior to Vatican II. Reuniting would have been far more possible prior to Vatican I. Actually, if the sentiments of Pope John Paul II and the EP had been present in Orthodox and Catholic heirarchs prior to Vatican I, we'd probably already be in Communion with one another.

But there is no point in pretending that VI & VII didn't occur. We need to really begin talking to each other before we also have a Vatican III or IV to deal with as well...

A unified Apostolic, Sacramental witness to the world is needed.

[NewToLife]

America, IMO, has seen the greatest amount of change in Catholicism and Catholic culture since VII. Europe has retained far superior liturgical practices. Orthodox who live in the US, where many Catholic churches have been really stripped down to look more like protestant churches, are concerned.

Wiffey, as someone who actually lives in Europe and who very seriously did consider conversion to Catholicism before I had ever even come across Orthodoxy I ought to point out that although you may be correct about liturgical abuse ( I cant say I've ever witnessed guitars at Mass despite having attended a great many of them ) there is nevertheless a lot of liberalism at least in the UK. You would be hard pressed to differentiate between some Catholic priests here and their liberal Anglican counterparts.

[Michael the Iconographer]

You would be hard pressed to differentiate between some Catholic priests here and their liberal Anglican counterparts.

The pastor of Corpus Christi Parish at the University of Toledo said he more identifies himself with a liberal Lutheran Minister than with a Catholic priest. This was the man whose actions started me on the road which eventually led me to embrace Orthodoxy.

[Rilian]

Ok, I think I see what the issue is. As you just stated, you believe that if you are too close to Catholicism, then you must as you put it, "drop the facade" and reunite. You are introducing this third variable into the equation of having to reunite if you are too close to Catholicism, which now makes it obvious that it is causing the Orthodox to distance themselves further from Catholicism (which makes sense; they don't want to renounce their faith)

Rising_Suns, what I was trying to say is we think the differences are great, but you don't. Should the differences not be great, we're hiding behind a wall of our own making and perpetuating the schism. The reverse situation is exactly true; if the differences are great and the West is ignoring them or simply doesn't see them, then it is perpetuating the schism.

[OrthodoxyUSA]

We are growing less and less "similar" as time goes on.

And it isn't the Orthodox Church that has done the "distancing," either.

The pre-Vatican II Roman Church was a lot more like the Orthodox Church than is the modern Roman Church, but still there were substantive differences. The pre-Vatican I Roman Church was even more like the Orthodox Church, but again there were significant differences.

It seems to me that the Roman Church continues to move further and further away from the Orthodox Church while at the same time talking up "unity" and "dialogue."

Talk means little.

We're not headed in the same direction.

:thumbsup:

Forgive me...:liturgy:

[InnerPhyre]

The pastor of Corpus Christi Parish at the University of Toledo said he more identifies himself with a liberal Lutheran Minister than with a Catholic priest. This was the man whose actions started me on the road which eventually led me to embrace Orthodoxy.


Such a preist should be defrocked.

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I'm well aware of what the Orthodox Church would demand fromt he Catholic Church as far as belief goes before reunification could occur, but what as far as praxy would you expect us to change? Would you say that we could keep things like Eucharistic adoration, stations of the cross, ashes on ash wed, etc?

What would you be willing to do?

We will not change, and the RCC has changed so much that it shouldn't be a problem to change again.....

"Unstoppable object" (RCC) hits "unmoveable object" (Orthodox).... Theres bound to be an explosion. Something would have to change.

Forgive me....:liturgy:

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Five Churchs together forming an cohesive whole...

One leaves and goes it's own way.

Because the other four do not follow the one claims that "they" left.

Forgive me....

[ukok]

Wiffey, as someone who actually lives in Europe and who very seriously did consider conversion to Catholicism before I had ever even come across Orthodoxy I ought to point out that although you may be correct about liturgical abuse ( I cant say I've ever witnessed guitars at Mass despite having attended a great many of them ) there is nevertheless a lot of liberalism at least in the UK. You would be hard pressed to differentiate between some Catholic priests here and their liberal Anglican counterparts.

As a fellow Brit and a convert to Catholicism ( who was aso a former anglican attending C of E for 3 or 4 years), I would disagree.

God Bless.

[Matrona]

As a fellow Brit and a convert to Catholicism ( who was aso a former anglican attending C of E for 3 or 4 years), I would disagree.

God Bless.

I think you're both probably right. There will be bad apple clergy somewhere, no matter what church you belong to. We Orthodox think of sin as being like a sickness, and the faith as being like a hospital. So disparaging a church solely because 'it has sinners in it' is like disparaging the healing capabilities of a hospital just because all its patients are sick or injured. :D

[Rising_Suns]

We will not change, and the RCC has changed so much that it shouldn't be a problem to change again.....

If change means to revert on and retract developed doctrine, that's an impossibility. The Catholic Church has not once, nor will she ever do that.

[OrthodoxyUSA]

If change means to revert on and retract developed doctrine, that's an impossibility. The Catholic Church has not once, nor will she ever do that.

I don't doubt you....

I just don't think it will happen.

May God Bless and Keep You....

Forgive me.....:liturgy:

[Rising_Suns]

It seems to me that the Roman Church continues to move further and further away from the Orthodox Church while at the same time talking up "unity"
and "dialogue."

I agree with you Maximus. As time goes on, we are slowly moving further away from each other and the Catholic Church is not going to sit around and wait for the Orthodox Church to play catch up. Ecumenical discussions of unity among the laity are mostly fruitless endevours, and ultimately only ignite flames of passion and undisciplined emotion.

Why do we obsess endlessly over this? Of course, there is Jesus' prayer for unity, but in this case the problem rests with our heirarchs. Is not striving for salvation enough of a task?

I would just like to echo this sentiment, and bow out from this thread. Listed below are some personal quotes from a book that has helped encouraged me through the years. Perhaps it will be a little reminder to us all;
.
.
.
.
•“Whatever goodness or virtue is in you, believe that your neighbor has better qualities; in this way you will preserve humility.”

• “If you wish to remain steadfast in grace and to grow in virtue, consider yourself an exile and a pilgrim in this world. You must rejoice to be considered a fool and a contemptuous person for the love of God.”

• “Discipline your senses and never indulge in hilarity.”

• “The charitable way is to accuse yourself and to excuse your neighbor.”

• “Those who are indifferent to praise or blame have great tranquility of
heart.”

• “Those who are turned to God consider the care of themselves before all other cares; and looking seriously to themselves, they find it easy to be silent about the deeds of others.”

• “Seldom are the wise in their own estimation humble enough to allow others to guide them.”

• “Learn to humble yourself and to bow beneath the feet of others for God’s sake.”

-Imitation of Christ

[Oblio]

If change means to revert on and retract developed doctrine, that's an impossibility. The Catholic Church has not once, nor will she ever do that.


I tend to agree with you here, and because of that I do not think that we will ever reunite as a group. Reunification will, IMO, only occur through individuals returning to the Orthodox Church.

[Rilian]

What seems odd to me is that Catholics express genuine shock and dismay that the Orthodox aren't rushing to engage in dialog. What we know however is what Rising_Suns simply expressed. They are not going to give up what we cannot accept. I guess I'm just surprised that they continue to be surprised.

[Oblio]

Countless Saints have shed their blood rather than renounce our faith. I cannot imagine giving up in dialogue and comprimise that faith bought in their blood and in the precious Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Oblio]

There is also the issue of the millions of RCs in the US. We cannot possibly have yet another jurisdiction (Roman Orthodox Church {I just picked a name congruent with other Orthodox Churches in America so take no offense}). God willing we are going to return to a canonical single American Orthodox Church, the millions of faithful would have to be absorbed into us. I sincerely doubt that would ever happen.

[The Virginian]

[QUOTE=Rising_Suns]

As time goes on, we are slowly moving further away from each other and the Catholic Church is not going to sit around and wait for the Orthodox Church to play catch up

This is an interesting thought to contemplate; it says (in so many words) that, all the changes in Roman Catholicism over the years have been a progression, an advancement if you will, in spirituality, and in understanding of the True Faith, and the dullards of Orthodoxy aren't as smart as we are. Is this the right interpretation, or have I totally missed something!

Yes, there needs to be one true holy, apostolic and catholic Church here in the United States. This most likely will happen whenever the various Orthodox jurisdictions unite. Even within the time span of change within Orthodoxy, i.e., hundreds of years, it is not likely that significant doctrinal augmentation will occur within RC so as to allow "communion" with the four remaining Sees of the Apostollic Faith.



ASAUS

[countrymousenc]

Yes, there needs to be one true holy, apostolic and catholic Church here in the United States. This most likely will happen whenever the various Orthodox jurisdictions unite.

Not meaning to offend, Virginian, but there is already one holy catholic and apostolic Church here in the US. The fact that there are multiple jurisdictions does not mean there are multiple Orthodox Churches.

[Rising_Suns]

This is an interesting thought to contemplate; it says (in so many words) that, all the changes in Roman Catholicism over the years have been a progression, an advancement if you will, in spirituality, and in understanding of the True Faith, and the dullards of Orthodoxy aren't as smart as we are. Is this the right interpretation, or have I totally missed something!

In all sincerety and from the bottom of my heart, you are reading too much into this. It is plain as day where both our Church's stand, and neither is going to budge in so far as doctrine is concerned.

I would kindly suggest you try to be less sensative. I could have chosen to be sensative to such comments as this one below;

We will not change, and the RCC has changed so much that it shouldn't be a problem to change again.....

..but I chose not to be. I could have called his comments naive to suggest that the Catholic Church changes so much, and that it shouldn't be a problem to simply retract all its developed doctrine since the schism, as if it is as simple as flicking a switch, but I chose not to be (yet i was still forced to bring it up to show to you that we don't have to get overly sensative about things).

Blessings to you,

-Davide

[Maximus]

I agree with you Maximus. As time goes on, we are slowly moving further away from each other and the Catholic Church is not going to sit around and wait for the Orthodox Church to play catch up.

God forbid that we should ever try to "play catch up" with the changes the Roman Church has made, especially since
Vatican II!

We'll stick with the Faith of the Fathers, thank you.

You all would do well to follow the example of the average grade school math student, who, when he gets a problem wrong, goes back and starts over.

We'll even loan you a big eraser. :liturgy:

[Marjorie]

We should all remember that the doctrine of the Catholic Church, after Vatican II, is not changed by guitars and other such protestantizations. Many Catholics-- most on CF, I would wager-- find a lot of post-V II changes unfortunate, so we should not use it as "proof" that the Catholic Church has strayed. We should also remember to approach all with love. Being snarky towards others for not having as beautiful a Liturgy regularly practiced as we do will hardly do anything to bring anyone to the Church.

Forgive me, chief of sinners.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Orthosdoxa]

I hate these threads about us vs. the RCs. Yes, we have serious differences. No, we are NOT two lungs in the same Body, and I find that belief pretty awful. No, reunification is not likely, not now, not ever, other than individuals making the change themselves.

But the average layperson here aint gonna change a single stinkin' thing with these arguments. Not one thing. All we do is stir up bad feelings, ESP when we're condescending to the other side, such as comparing them to children.

It reminds me of a broken record, it's just the same stuff, over and over.

I shouldn't have opened this thread.

Forgive me,

LK

[Wiffey]

Anonykat, you have a good point. We are not going to heal the Schism on CF. When I see Orthodox and Catholics fighting, it causes me grief that is almost physical. We can do so much better than this. Our hope is to focus on acquiring the Holy Sprirt, each of us. When we have grown in the faith enough to overcome the sins that sparked the division, then we will be healed. Pray! Pray for us, and for our brethren! Pray that we may all grow in faith and do the will of God...

[Abiel]

This is a very sad thread. I am an outsider. I like to hang out here and in OBOB. Each group displays kindness, faith, humility and love. You are doing the greatest commandment. Your love for the Lord shines through.

[Rising_Suns]

You all would do well to follow the example of the average grade school math student, who, when he gets a problem wrong, goes back and starts over.

We'll even loan you a big eraser. :liturgy:

Please keep in mind that the Church is likened less to that of a math problem, so much as she is to a living organism; she is the Bride of Christ, who continues to grow to deeper relvelations of truth as she seeks to further unite with her heavenly Spouse.

[xenia]

I wonder if for the season of Lent, both ours and the Catholics', if we could refrain from being critical of each other's churches. It would be so refreshing.

(I am saying this as Xenia a poster, not Xenia the mod.)

[Orthosdoxa]

Agreed. I'd like to see a moratorium on these threads for a while. THEY ARE POINTLESS, and THEY ARE DESTRUCTIVE.

[Maximus]

Please keep in mind that the Church is likened less to that of a math problem, so much as she is to a living organism; she is the Bride of Christ, who continues to grow to deeper relvelations of truth as she seeks to further unite with her heavenly Spouse.

What you call "deeper revelations" we call mistakes.

Was it a "deeper revelation" that led JPII to both bow to and kiss the Koran?

Was it a "deeper revelation" that caused Cardinal Law to bow to the floor and pray with Muslims inside a mosque?

Was it a "deeper revelation" that inspired Franciscans to remove crosses and other Christian items from a convent in Assisi so as not to offend pagan "visitors"?

One wonders what "deeper revelations" you all have in store for us next.

[xenia]

Closed for staff review.