Church teachings (example: 'Baptism')

[daverain]

.



Q.)


If -Church A- teaches that:


Baptism in water (for this example)

IS required for salvation...


<AND>


-Church B- teaches that:


Baptism in water (for this example)

IS NOT required for salvation...


Could it be said that (in SOME way): One of the churches MUST BE: speaking 'lies of the devil'?




.

[Toms777]

.



Q.)


If -Church A- teaches that:


Baptism in water (for this example)

IS required for salvation...


<AND>


-Church B- teaches that:


Baptism in water (for this example)

IS NOT required for salvation...


Could it be said that (in SOME way): One of the churches MUST BE: speaking 'lies of the devil'?




.

Since the teaching that baptism in water is essential takes away from the simple God of grace as given in the Bible and since it denies the all-sufficiency of the sacrifice on the cross, I would suggest that churches which teach that doctrine teach a different gospel.

[hooverbranch]

I would concur that teaching that Baptism is essential is a different gospel than I know. For in my Gospel Jesus's grace saved me not water. Acts 15:11

[ydouxist]

Yea

Another baptism thread!!!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[CWLite]

Yes, church a) is teaching something that is in conflict with the scriptures, therefore it is a lie. All lies comes from the satan, for he is the father of lies.

[Toms777]

Yea

Another baptism thread!!!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

We can hope that eventually we can get through to those who believe baptism to be essential with the truth of the gospel of Paul !!

1 Cor 15:1-7
15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.
NKJV

[daverain]

.



Now.


Considering ALL denominations differ on MARRIAGE (in some way)...

Could a church ALSO be considered to be teaching 'lies of the devil',

IF it taught error on MARRIAGE?

(=HOW GOD joins a man-and-a-woman together.)


For example:


-------------------------------------------------------------------

My Marriage Threads:
--------------------

(God can tell us if a legal marriage is NOT true love.)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1223816-god-can-tell-us-if-a-legal-marriage-is-not-true-love.html

(Is divorce EVER an option?)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1210900-is-divorce-ever-an-option.html

(God marries the un-saved , as well)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1214189-god-marries-the-un-saved-as-well.html

(marriage in MAN'S image)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1232352-marriage-in-mans-image.html


--------------------------------------------------------------------


-Peace in Christ.



.


.

[hooverbranch]

The thing we need to be asking is what do we do if we find our church teaching against something I have found to be truth in scripture. And that is fix it. Go to your church leaders and BE PREPARED give them scripture and in LOVE tell them why you think the veiw is contrary to scripture. That will solve everything. (hopefully) if not and it is essential 1st or 2nd teir stuff then I would suggest looking for a new church.

[New_Wineskin]

Yea

Another baptism thread!!!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Yeah . Who'd a thunk it ? ;)

[New_Wineskin]

The thing we need to be asking is what do we do if we find our church teaching against something I have found to be truth in scripture. And that is fix it. Go to your church leaders and BE PREPARED give them scripture and in LOVE tell them why you think the veiw is contrary to scripture. That will solve everything. (hopefully) if not and it is essential 1st or 2nd teir stuff then I would suggest looking for a new church.

I have heard story after story about people bringing things to leaders and they are considered to be upstarts or their difference of opinion is due to their not having enough knowledge of the Scriptures . They are dismissed or thrown out of the group or forced to leave in one way or another .

The fact that there are always several threads on water baptism and non changing their viewpoint shows that people are not easily changed once they have their doctrine in place ( though they *say* that they would change if presented with evidence ) .

[christosdoulos]

All lies comes from the satan, for he is the father of lies

Really? We don't lie because we don't want to tell the truth? Why does satan have everything (or anything) to do with it?

[Toms777]

Really? We don't lie because we don't want to tell the truth? Why does satan have everything (or anything) to do with it?

John 8:40-45
41 You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father--God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV

[Jim Woodell]

.



Q.)


If -Church A- teaches that:


Baptism in water (for this example)

IS required for salvation...


<AND>


-Church B- teaches that:


Baptism in water (for this example)

IS NOT required for salvation...


Could it be said that (in SOME way): One of the churches MUST BE: speaking 'lies of the devil'?
.

First, baptism is NOT the gospel it IS a response to the gospel.

SECONDLY, COME ON GUYS. DOES FAIRNESS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH BEING A CHILD Of GOD?? IS LOVE ESSENTIAL TO OUR SALVATION?? (1 COR. 13:1-4)

Also, some churches teach, "Once saved, always saved." Others teach that a Christian can backslide and lose their salvation. And some of these would hold to the baptism is not essential, but necessary for obedience perspective.

I have also read some thread where some of the same folks on this thread were deeply offended that they understood someone to be saying they were not saved (Tom777, isn't that what got you crossways with DRA?? Maybe something out of Nehemiah??). Some of you teach that Holy Spirit baptism is the source of salvation. IS THAT A DIFFERENT GOSPEL??

Thirdly, I agree wholeheartedly that if we preach any gospel other than the one gospel of Christ, we are in trouble.

So, my council, be nice (Gal. 5:22-23).

[Jim Woodell]

John 8:40-45
41 You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father--God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV

Tom,

Jesus had the ability to read the hearts of people, something we don't possess. You would have done well to read the previous verses before you cast this judgement, "If you were Abraham's children, then you would do the things Abraham did." (John 8:39b). "As it is you have determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God." (John 8:40).

It was Jesus who said, "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgement." (Matt. 5:22) and "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the SAME WAY you judge others, yo will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Matt.7:1)

I detect some malice in the way you have applied the teaching above, but I hope I am wrong.

[Andyman_1970]

Ok, this may sound werid (esspecially coming from someone who does not beleive Baptism is essential to salvation) but I don't think either church "a" or church "b" is telling "lies of the devil".

In Matthew 16 Jesus gives the disciples the authority to "bind and loose" - coming from a Jewish rabbi that means He has given them authority to prohibit (bind) or loose (permit) issue from the Torah (note: Jesus gave this to the disciples not an individual). So from this, as we are disciples today, I beleive we have the same authority to do this communinally (not indivdually).

So for me, with an issue like Baptism (can we drop this already) that both sides have ample Scripture for their position - this is an issue of binding and loosing - some church have "bound" this issue some have "loosed" this issue. For me it's very important (and very hard to do sometimes) not to look at people who disagree with me on stuff like this in an "us vs. them" manner (which I don't think is what Jesus called us to be).

Now before you have a cow and say "wait you can't reinterpret Scripture" - a denomination is a group of people who have bound some things and loosed others - so this is something that still takes place.

Anyway, I'm sure that was about as clear as mud..............

[Toms777]

Tom
Jesus had the ability to read the hearts of people, something we don't possess. You would have done well to read the previous verses before you cast this judgement, "If you were Abraham's children, then you would do the things Abraham did." (John 8:39b). "As it is you have determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God." (John 8:40).


Yep....your point? The question was why do we think that the devil has any part to play in lies. So I truly do not understand what your point is.


It was Jesus who said, "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgement." (Matt. 5:22) and "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the SAME WAY you judge others, yo will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Matt.7:1)

I detect some malice in the way you have applied the teaching above, but I hope I am wrong.

I got a very big grin when you suggest that we should not judge and then you suggest that I had malice in my heart....'nuff said!

:D :D :D :D :D

[Lutherrunner]

can't they merely be two different interpretations or opinions?......why the big drama about "lies of the devil"?

[Toms777]

can't they merely be two different interpretations or opinions?......why the big drama about "lies of the devil"?

They could indeed be two different opinions. Different interpretations or opinions are not always equally valid or equally justifiable when we look at what scripture says.

I was not the one who called them by that terminology. What I did say is that the belief in baptism being essential for salvation represents a different gospel because it denies the necessity of Christ sacrifice on the cross. And scripture does have some stern warnings regarding different gospels so I believe that it is important that we base our interpretations, especially when they deal with doctrinal essentials, firmly upon God's words and not our opinions.

[Jim Woodell]

Yep....your point? The question was why do we think that the devil has any part to play in lies. So I truly do not understand what your point is.

Perhaps I missed your application. It seemed to me that your point was, "Anyone who teaches baptism is essential for salvation cast their lot with Satan, the Father of Lies." Obviously there is a place prepared for Satan and his angels. To pronounce condemnation on anyone is "judging." This is something only God Himself can do.


I got a very big grin when you suggest that we should not judge and then you suggest that I had malice in my heart....'nuff said!

:D :D :D :D :D

The malice observation (not a judgement to hell) still stands. So be sweet!

[daverain]

.

What a response!
-----------------


(and I only used -'baptism in water'- as an EXAMPLE)

(One could use -MARRIAGE- as an example, also.)




Anyways...


I feel that LIES

(not lies to protect someone -like Rahab did, when she protected the Isrealites; I mean like "One who practises lying."):

ARE of the devil.


What I mean by this:
--------------------


All of us have a 'twisted' sinful-nature.



However...


-IF- one is a Christian:

Jesus is 'fixing' that, and one day we'll be TOTALLY sin-less in HIM.

(not just 'positionally sinless')



Therefore, <I> would say that ANYTHING not of GOD, -IS- of the devil.

(I'm very intrigued by the 'binding and loosing' thoughts though.)




-Peace in Christ.



.

[Toms777]

Perhaps I missed your application. It seemed to me that your point was, "Anyone who teaches baptism is essential for salvation cast their lot with Satan, the Father of Lies." Obviously there is a place prepared for Satan and his angels. To pronounce condemnation on anyone is "judging." This is something only God Himself can do.


I trust that you will read more carefully what I say in the future before jumping to conclusions and false judgements!

But judging by your final sentence....I am not so sure.

[revrobor]

We can hope that eventually we can get through to those who believe baptism to be essential with the truth of the gospel of Paul !!


Don't waste your breath (or fingers) as people who believe that are probably numbered among those who have put more faith in what they have been taught and what they believe than in Jesus Christ. Their BELIEF is their security.

[daverain]

....people....

...probably...

...have put more faith in what they have been taught

and what they believe than in Jesus Christ.


Their BELIEF is their security.



Amen.

This is one of the MAIN reasons for

FALSE DOCTRINES

(=people are 'afraid' to 'challenge the pastor'.)


(This is ALSO the reason why MANY -but not all- Christians believe Garbage-Teachings in the area of MARRIAGE.)




----------------------------------------------------

My Marriage Threads:
--------------------


(What a Man has said about marriage)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1222090-what-a-man-has-said-about-marriage-.html

(marriage in MAN'S image)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1232352-marriage-in-mans-image.html

(Marriage)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1172184-marriage.html

(To clarify marriage)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1192438-to-clarify-marriage.html

(Ships Ahoy)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1184107-ships-ahoy.html

(Money to marry)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1183330-money-to-marry-wtt.html

(Common Law Marriage)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1207405-comman-law-marriage.html

(My Wife)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1200648-my-wife.html

(True Story)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1203990-true-story.html

(My view on ceremonies past)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1207789-my-view-on-ceremonies-past.html

(Some marriage ramblings)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1219400-some-marriage-ramblings.html

(God can tell us if a legal marriage is NOT true love.)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1223816-god-can-tell-us-if-a-legal-marriage-is-not-true-love.html

(Is divorce EVER an option?)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1210900-is-divorce-ever-an-option.html

(God marries the un-saved , as well)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1214189-god-marries-the-un-saved-as-well.html



-----------------------------------------------------------------------




Peace in Christ.



.

[Toms777]

Don't waste your breath (or fingers) as people who believe that are probably numbered among those who have put more faith in what they have been taught and what they believe than in Jesus Christ. Their BELIEF is their security.

There is probably some truth in what you say, but I remain eternally optimistic that amongst them or amongst the lurkers, there may be someone who has an open mind and may be listening to what scripture has to say on this topic. I am in no position to judge the hearts of others, and sometimes some of those who are fighting most vigorously against what scripture has to say may be doing so because they are struggling with what they know to be true, but are trying to avoiding admitting. That can be a painful exercise.

[daverain]

.



Thank you Toms777,

I see much wisdom in what you've just said.


I feel God works mightily

through Christians in this way.



Peace in Christ.



.

[Jim Woodell]

I trust that you will read more carefully what I say in the future before jumping to conclusions and false judgements!

But judging by your final sentence....I am not so sure.

THIS IS WHAT YOU SAID:


Since the teaching that baptism in water is essential takes away from the simple God of grace as given in the Bible and since it denies the all-sufficiency of the sacrifice on the cross, I would suggest that churches which teach that doctrine teach a different gospel.

Tom, is this what you said? Did someone tamper with your words?

Now read Gal 1:8-9.

You are saying, whether you mean to or not, if I preach the essentiality of baptism for salvation that I am preaching another gospel in which case Paul says, "let him be condemned." Please correct me, if I am wrong.

Those churches you mention in your post(or that are unmentioned by name, but implied) are damned to (churches are made up of people). Am I reading to much into your post??

It doesn't seem to matter how many times it is said, BAPTISM IS NOT THE GOSPEL, IT IS A RESPONSE TO THE GOSPEL," those words are not heard. In your fellowship, a person wants to be saved: What do you instruct them to do?

Remember, the Jailer asked, "Men and brethren, What must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30). He was told to "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." (16:31). What was their "faith response?" "And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their wounds, and he was baptized at once, with all of his family." Why?

Also, teaching what the Bible teaches on baptism, does not distract from the grace of God, or faith, or love or the sacrifice of Christ. Did it distract in the case of the Ethiopian in Acts 8:35-40? He went on his way rejoicing after hearing Christ preached, expressing his faith by being baptized in water.

Baptism is what baptism is in the Bible, the place at which God places the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38; 22:16). God shows us no other way to get into Christ (Romans 8:1) where salvation is found except through baptism (Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:3).

[daverain]

.







You are saying, whether you mean to or not, if I preach the essentiality of baptism for salvation that I am preaching another gospel in which case Paul says, "let him be condemned." Please correct me, if I am wrong.




Sir,

By saying baptism (in water) is required for salvation....

Are you not THUS saying:

If one teaches it's NOT required...

Then...

That one (who says it's not required),

HAS PREACHED ANOTHER GOSPEL??

(I WOULD SAY THAT, -IF- I BELIEVED THE WAY YOU DO)


(Does THAT argument NOT lead to a 'stale-mate'?)






Peace in Christ.





.

[Toms777]

THIS IS WHAT YOU SAID:

Tom, is this what you said? Did someone tamper with your words?

Now read Gal 1:8-9.

You are saying, whether you mean to or not, if I preach the essentiality of baptism for salvation that I am preaching another gospel in which case Paul says, "let him be condemned." Please correct me, if I am wrong.


I am speaking of the different gospel and it is clear that the belief in baptism is a different gospel. As to the relationshyip of an individual with God, I'll leave that up to God.

So I am dealing with the doctrine, not the person.

You, on the other hand, condemned me as a person by falsely judging what was in my heart.

Now, can we get back on topic?

[Jim Woodell]

.


Sir,

By saying baptism (in water) is required for salvation....

Are you not THUS saying:

If one teaches it's NOT required...

Then...

That one (who says it's not required),

HAS PREACHED ANOTHER GOSPEL??

(I WOULD SAY THAT, -IF- I BELIEVED THE WAY YOU DO)

(Does THAT argument NOT lead to a 'stale-mate'?)

Peace in Christ.
.

That is incorrect. Baptism in NOT the gospel. The baptism discussion I have been involved in has had to do with ones response to the gospel.

I think the question you have posed on this thread is a misunderstanding of what is being said about baptism. It is not a work of human merit or an effort to earn salvation.

I am very much aware that Paul wrote, "I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. You are severed from you, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." (Gal. 5:3-4), but he hastened to add in Gal. 5:6, "For IN CHRIST JESUS neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love." FAITH WORKING THROUGH LOVE DOES AVAIL. I believe that is what baptism is when a person is responding to Christ from faith and love.

If a person preached "baptism" as the gospel, that would be another gospel. To fail to mention baptism is to fail to tell people how to respond to the gospel.

Tom777 is correct in stating that 1 Cor. 15:1-4 is the gospel. Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures, was buried and raised again on the third day according to the scriptures - IS the gospel.

To preach human works as a source of salvation is another gospel. The case Paul referred to in Gal. 1:6-9, as another gospel, was a reversion back to the law of Moses and the works of the law as a source of salvation.

[Jim Woodell]

I am speaking of the different gospel and it is clear that the belief in baptism is a different gospel. As to the relationshyip of an individual with God, I'll leave that up to God.

So I am dealing with the doctrine, not the person.

You, on the other hand, condemned me as a person by falsely judging what was in my heart.

Now, can we get back on topic?

Please read my next post. We can both leave it up to other readers of these post as to who is judging who. OF COURSE GOD DOES HAVE THE FINAL WORD.
I am very grateful for that.

[crossbearer 7]

What is the question here?

[daverain]

.




What is the question here?




The Question:
-------------

Could it be said that (in SOME way): One of the churches (Church A, OR Church B), MUST BE: speaking 'lies of the devil'?







Peace in Christ.




.

[daverain]

That is incorrect. Baptism in NOT the gospel. The baptism discussion I have been involved in has had to do with ones response to the gospel.





Do you NOT imply by your words...


That IF one 'refuses the dunking',


One has THUS refused The Gospel of Christ?







Peace in Christ.







.

[Toms777]

That is incorrect. Baptism in NOT the gospel.


Nor is it in the gospel. That is exactly the point. If you understand that, why are you arguing that it is essential for salvation? That is contradictory.

[Stinker]

There is one thing that those on both sides of the baptism question agree on.........they BOTH agree that salvation is IN Christ:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are IN Christ Jesus..." (Rom.8:1)

"IN whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace." (Eph.1:7)


If it can be found in the scriptures how a person gets INTO Christ, the issue will be settled as to whether the water baptisms throughout the book of Acts were essential to those persons salvation.

[Jim Woodell]

Nor is it in the gospel. That is exactly the point. If you understand that, why are you arguing that it is essential for salvation? That is contradictory.

I have not said it was IN the gospel or THE gospel, as you have continued to state. BAPTISM IS A RESPONSE TO THE GOSPEL. Scripture speaks of "obeying the gospel." (2 Thess. 1:8; 1 Pet. 4:17).

I believe you "obey the gospel" by submitting to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. You die to sin (repentance) and are buried in baptism (Rom. 6:3-4), and are raised to walk in newness of life.

How do you think you obey the gospel??

[Toms777]

If it can be found in the scriptures how a person gets INTO Christ, the issue will be settled as to whether the water baptisms throughout the book of Acts were essential to those persons salvation.

That is the gospel, and there is not a word about water baptism in the gospel.

John 3:16-19
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NKJV

If there was any verse which stated that water baptism is essential for salvation, then all you would need to do is show it, but the fact that you have not been able to do so after so many weeks is quite telling.

[daverain]

I have not said it was IN the gospel or THE gospel, as you have continued to state. BAPTISM IS A RESPONSE TO THE GOSPEL. Scripture speaks of "obeying the gospel." (2 Thess. 1:8; 1 Pet. 4:17).







You SEEM to imply that if one isn't dunked:

they're NOT saved.


Would this be an accurate description of your belief-system, sir?

[Toms777]

I have not said it was IN the gospel or THE gospel, as you have continued to state. BAPTISM IS A RESPONSE TO THE GOSPEL. Scripture speaks of "obeying the gospel." (2 Thess. 1:8; 1 Pet. 4:17).


Exactly! Once you are saved, you respond to that salvation!

Water baptism is a response to salvation.

By George, I think that we are making progress.

[ydouxist]

Exactly! Once you are saved, you respond to that salvation!

Water baptism is a response to salvation.

By George, I think that we are making progress.


Thank You Jesus!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: